Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-03-01 Thread paul swed
As Tom mentioned I am familiar with the chips. But the bottom line is there are no chips either old style or new around anymore from what I have seen. If you can find the consumer atomic clocks that are pretty rare these days you can get the AM clock receiver from those. The new chips (Literally

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-03-01 Thread Bob Camp
Hi > On Mar 1, 2016, at 2:44 AM, Sanjeev Gupta wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Sanjeev Gupta wrote: > >> Are there commercially (or widely-used) receivers for professional use >> which listen to the WWVB signal? > > > Folks, I am trying to

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-03-01 Thread Hal Murray
gha...@gmail.com said: > Is there *any* commercial gear available for WWVB at all, today? Price is > not an issue, just a public product page will do. I don't know of any gear that is currently available in the US. A few years ago, you used to be able to get a small board and ferrite

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-03-01 Thread Tom Van Baak
Sanjeev Gupta wrote: > Folks, I am trying to trace down xtendwave. They seem to have released a > Everset IC, and then renamed themselves to Everset in 2013 or 2014. Contact Paul Swed or me off-list about this. > Is there *any* commercial gear available for WWVB at all, today? Price is > not

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-03-01 Thread Majdi S. Abbas
On Tue, Mar 01, 2016 at 03:44:01PM +0800, Sanjeev Gupta wrote: > Folks, I am trying to trace down xtendwave. They seem to have released a > Everset IC, and then renamed themselves to Everset in 2013 or 2014. It's not an IC, exactly, it's a bare product intended for integration into

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-03-01 Thread Sanjeev Gupta
On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Sanjeev Gupta wrote: > Are there commercially (or widely-used) receivers for professional use > which listen to the WWVB signal? Folks, I am trying to trace down xtendwave. They seem to have released a Everset IC, and then renamed themselves

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-02-29 Thread jimlux
On 2/29/16 5:31 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: I have observed always less than 1 millisecond offset and skew with the ntpd wwv audio refclock over more than the past decade. Setting up the audio refclocks involves calculating and configuring propagation delay and delays in the receiver and audio chain.

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-02-29 Thread Paul
On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 6:35 AM, Hal Murray wrote: > The audio stuff seems particularly ugly. > > Are there any good non-GPS options these days? In this context, "good" is > a > bit hard to pin down. My straw man is either something in production or > something like a

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-02-29 Thread jimlux
On 2/29/16 3:39 AM, Hal Murray wrote: tic-...@bodosom.net said: If you can get audio they work. The documented accuracy for WWV is within 1 millisecond of the time pulse. Where is that documented and/or can anybody verify that they get results in that range? What is the (ballpark) of the

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-02-29 Thread jimlux
On 2/29/16 3:39 AM, Hal Murray wrote: tic-...@bodosom.net said: If you can get audio they work. The documented accuracy for WWV is within 1 millisecond of the time pulse. Where is that documented and/or can anybody verify that they get results in that range? What is the (ballpark) of the

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-02-29 Thread Tim Shoppa
I have observed always less than 1 millisecond offset and skew with the ntpd wwv audio refclock over more than the past decade. Setting up the audio refclocks involves calculating and configuring propagation delay and delays in the receiver and audio chain. As Sanjeev has mentioned, setting up

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-02-29 Thread Martin Burnicki
Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > WWVB and WWV (like any radio uncorrected radio system) has fairly predictable > shifts > associated with the day / night ionosphere. One *could* fix that issue with a > table > based on station location. I do not know of any library of code that does > that already. >

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-02-29 Thread Hal Murray
m...@latt.net said: > What are you trying to do? Kill the refclocks entirely, or just pare > them > down to essentials? The idea is to drop the ones that aren't being used and/or we can't test. If we dropped one in error, we can recover it. The audio stuff seems particularly ugly. I

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-02-29 Thread Hal Murray
tic-...@bodosom.net said: > If you can get audio they work. The documented accuracy for WWV is within 1 > millisecond of the time pulse. Where is that documented and/or can anybody verify that they get results in that range? What is the (ballpark) of the day/night shift? -- These are my

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-02-28 Thread Sanjeev Gupta
On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Sanjeev Gupta wrote: > I am reviewing and expanding and for the NTPSec project < > http://www.ntpsec.org >, a fork of NTP. > Apologies, this should have been: I am reviewing and expanding and documentation for the NTPSec project <

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-02-28 Thread Bob Camp
Hi WWVB and WWV (like any radio uncorrected radio system) has fairly predictable shifts associated with the day / night ionosphere. One *could* fix that issue with a table based on station location. I do not know of any library of code that does that already. The next “layer” of trouble

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-02-28 Thread Paul
On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 2:09 AM, Sanjeev Gupta wrote: > > Among NTPSec's goals are a smaller, auditable, code-base; hence support for > receivers last available in the early-1990s is being removed. > I'm a bit confused by your question and the responses. There are (I believe)

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-02-28 Thread jimlux
On 2/28/16 7:07 AM, Sanjeev Gupta wrote: On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 9:45 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote: Support for WWV in ntpd using the wwv_audio refclock is very good and delivers jitters substantially less than a millisecond. I have been using this for over a decade. Thank you.

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-02-28 Thread James Flynn
Sanjeev Gupta writes: > that as a result of the change, precision equipment may not be able to > recover a usable signal from the new modulation scheme, rendering it > useless for the sub-100 microsec disciplining. In fact, the new scheme may actually help with accurate ON-TIME

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-02-28 Thread Majdi S. Abbas
On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 03:09:32PM +0800, Sanjeev Gupta wrote: > I am reviewing and expanding and for the NTPSec project < > http://www.ntpsec.org >, a fork of NTP. > > Among NTPSec's goals are a smaller, auditable, code-base; hence support for > receivers last available in the early-1990s is

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-02-28 Thread Sanjeev Gupta
On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 10:57 PM, Bob Camp wrote: > The new WWVB format is troublesome for older gear that looks at carrier > phase as a source of precision timing. The NTP driver does not do this. > > The new WWVB format is fine for any gear that recovers time from the > AM

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-02-28 Thread Sanjeev Gupta
On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 9:45 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Support for WWV in ntpd using the wwv_audio refclock is very good and > delivers jitters substantially less than a millisecond. I have been using > this for over a decade. > Thank you. In particular, WWV, as compared to

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-02-28 Thread Bob Camp
Hi Ok, I think we have a bit of a terminology issue here. The new WWVB format is troublesome for older gear that looks at carrier phase as a source of precision timing. The NTP driver does not do this. The new WWVB format is fine for any gear that recovers time from the AM modulation on the

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-02-28 Thread Tim Shoppa
Having a diversity of refclocks is important for any real NTP implementation. There is a strong tendency towards a GPS monoculture and the implementers must work against it. Support for WWV in ntpd using the wwv_audio refclock is very good and delivers jitters substantially less than a

[time-nuts] WWVB format change in 2012

2016-02-28 Thread Sanjeev Gupta
Hi, I am reviewing and expanding and for the NTPSec project < http://www.ntpsec.org >, a fork of NTP. Among NTPSec's goals are a smaller, auditable, code-base; hence support for receivers last available in the early-1990s is being removed. I have been on this list for some years (thank you),