Re: [time-nuts] WWVB phase-modulation test

[paul swed]

Fired up the spectracom 8170 locked in 3-4 minutes on the east coast near
boston.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Jim Hickstein  wrote:

> On 2012/04/16 10:41, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:
>
>> Spectracom 8182 relocked at 1403Z today.
>>
>
> 8164 and 8170 still unlocked at 1955Z.  Maybe they stay locked during the
> day, just barely? (8164 AGC 1.3V, a few days ago), but can't lock up from
> unlocked easily.  We'll see what the dark-path brings.
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB phase-modulation test

[Jim Hickstein]

On 2012/04/16 10:41, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:

Spectracom 8182 relocked at 1403Z today.


8164 and 8170 still unlocked at 1955Z.  Maybe they stay locked during the day, 
just barely? (8164 AGC 1.3V, a few days ago), but can't lock up from unlocked 
easily.  We'll see what the dark-path brings.


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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB phase-modulation test

[Kevin Rosenberg]

On Apr 14, 2012, at 10:45 PM, Shaun Merrigan wrote:
> Just wondering if anyone on the list is monitoring their WWVB gear at the
> moment?  I got in a bit late, but I have been recording my 8170 since about
> 0300 and it has remained locked.  QTH here is about 1500km north of Ft.
> Collins.

Spectracom 8182 relocked at 1403Z today.

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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB phase-modulation test

[paul swed]

I did want to add to my earlier comments that I have 3 radio clocks and all
worked during this time. So from the east coast it seems the modulation
does not effect radio clocks.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 12:59 PM, Jim Hickstein  wrote:

> >psk fixer-uppers not working all that well. Back to the drawing boards as
> >they say.
>
> My Spectracom 8170 was showing lock but not time sync, for a while last
> night, several hours.  Longer than usual, when it's just getting a grip.
>  (I didn't set up to record its outputs, alas!)  At other times, and this
> morning, it's just unlocked.
>
> The 8164 has been unlocked throughout, as expected, and its strip-chart
> recorder shows the usual open-loop pattern.  When the test ends I should
> have a nice picture bracketing it.
>
> My MFJ-133 clock is happy enough, as predicted.  The Junghans Mega seems
> to be.  It's harder to tell with the others, that only have hands and no
> direct indication of receiver state.
>
> Interesting that the NIST's own monitoring stations (
> http://tf.nist.gov/tf-cgi/**wwvbmonitor_e.cgi)
> variously show readable time codes, and highly atypical plots of relative
> field strength.  I wonder how they're measuring those.  Again, LaCrosse is
> the big loser on readability, for some reason.
>
> I also finally hauled the spectrum analyzer (HP 141T/8552B/8553B) up from
> the basement, got together a DC block and a BNC tee, and tried to see what
> I could see.  Nothing.  60 kHz is mighty close to DC, on this thing.  Too
> close, evidently.  Perhaps I should be looking somewhere inside the 8164.
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB phase-modulation test

[Jim Hickstein]

>psk fixer-uppers not working all that well. Back to the drawing boards as
>they say.

My Spectracom 8170 was showing lock but not time sync, for a while last night, 
several hours.  Longer than usual, when it's just getting a grip.  (I didn't set 
up to record its outputs, alas!)  At other times, and this morning, it's just 
unlocked.


The 8164 has been unlocked throughout, as expected, and its strip-chart recorder 
shows the usual open-loop pattern.  When the test ends I should have a nice 
picture bracketing it.


My MFJ-133 clock is happy enough, as predicted.  The Junghans Mega seems to be. 
 It's harder to tell with the others, that only have hands and no direct 
indication of receiver state.


Interesting that the NIST's own monitoring stations 
(http://tf.nist.gov/tf-cgi/wwvbmonitor_e.cgi) variously show readable time 
codes, and highly atypical plots of relative field strength.  I wonder how 
they're measuring those.  Again, LaCrosse is the big loser on readability, for 
some reason.


I also finally hauled the spectrum analyzer (HP 141T/8552B/8553B) up from the 
basement, got together a DC block and a BNC tee, and tried to see what I could 
see.  Nothing.  60 kHz is mighty close to DC, on this thing.  Too close, 
evidently.  Perhaps I should be looking somewhere inside the 8164.


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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB phase-modulation test

[Scott McGrath]

HP117a unlocked in grid FN43

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 15, 2012, at 1:01 AM, Kevin Rosenberg  wrote:

> On Apr 14, 2012, at 10:45 PM, Shaun Merrigan wrote:
>> Just wondering if anyone on the list is monitoring their WWVB gear at the
>> moment?  I got in a bit late, but I have been recording my 8170 since about
>> 0300 and it has remained locked.  QTH here is about 1500km north of Ft.
>> Collins.
> 
> I've been monitoring my Spectracom 8182. It's been unlocked since 0100,
> about 1000km south of Ft. Collins.
> 
> Kevin
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB phase-modulation test

[Kevin Rosenberg]

On Apr 14, 2012, at 10:45 PM, Shaun Merrigan wrote:
> Just wondering if anyone on the list is monitoring their WWVB gear at the
> moment?  I got in a bit late, but I have been recording my 8170 since about
> 0300 and it has remained locked.  QTH here is about 1500km north of Ft.
> Collins.

I've been monitoring my Spectracom 8182. It's been unlocked since 0100,
about 1000km south of Ft. Collins.

Kevin


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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB phase-modulation test

[Shaun Merrigan]

Just wondering if anyone on the list is monitoring their WWVB gear at the
moment?  I got in a bit late, but I have been recording my 8170 since about
0300 and it has remained locked.  QTH here is about 1500km north of Ft.
Collins.

Shaun M
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of paul swed
Sent: April-14-12 8:45 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB phase-modulation test

psk fixer-uppers not working all that well. Back to the drawing boards as
they say.
But at least I can see whats up.

On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 9:51 PM, paul swed  wrote:

> East coast here
> Yes I ran into the same thing so missed getting the spectracom 8170 
> sync'ed. Doesn't matter really, I now see whats up.
> The HP 117 and the fluke 207 all lost lock and phase all over as expected.
> Just jimmied in the homebrew psk fixer'upper (Another time-nut is 
> helping
> also.) to see if the fluke 207 will lock.
> I can see I have an issue with the hysteresis, but knew that going in.
> The 207 does lock but the above issue is not helping at all.
>
> Very curious I was copying a signal when wwvb was off, must have been MSF.
> It was pretty darn weak at -85db.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 9:40 PM, John Seamons  wrote:
>
>> On Apr 14, 2012, at 7:05 PM, Jim Hickstein wrote:
>>
>> > Did they start early?  Both my Spectracom 8164 and 8170 are unlocked.
>>  I was expecting this, but not before 0130Z.
>>
>> The transmitter went off-air starting at 0100Z. Back on now at 0130 
>> presumably with PSK. I'm recording, but haven't done any decoding 
>> yet. I'm hoping this test is more than just the static data pattern from
last time.
>>
>>
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>>
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB phase-modulation test

[paul swed]

psk fixer-uppers not working all that well. Back to the drawing boards as
they say.
But at least I can see whats up.

On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 9:51 PM, paul swed  wrote:

> East coast here
> Yes I ran into the same thing so missed getting the spectracom 8170
> sync'ed. Doesn't matter really, I now see whats up.
> The HP 117 and the fluke 207 all lost lock and phase all over as expected.
> Just jimmied in the homebrew psk fixer'upper (Another time-nut is helping
> also.) to see if the fluke 207 will lock.
> I can see I have an issue with the hysteresis, but knew that going in.
> The 207 does lock but the above issue is not helping at all.
>
> Very curious I was copying a signal when wwvb was off, must have been MSF.
> It was pretty darn weak at -85db.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 9:40 PM, John Seamons  wrote:
>
>> On Apr 14, 2012, at 7:05 PM, Jim Hickstein wrote:
>>
>> > Did they start early?  Both my Spectracom 8164 and 8170 are unlocked.
>>  I was expecting this, but not before 0130Z.
>>
>> The transmitter went off-air starting at 0100Z. Back on now at 0130
>> presumably with PSK. I'm recording, but haven't done any decoding yet. I'm
>> hoping this test is more than just the static data pattern from last time.
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB phase-modulation test

[paul swed]

East coast here
Yes I ran into the same thing so missed getting the spectracom 8170
sync'ed. Doesn't matter really, I now see whats up.
The HP 117 and the fluke 207 all lost lock and phase all over as expected.
Just jimmied in the homebrew psk fixer'upper (Another time-nut is helping
also.) to see if the fluke 207 will lock.
I can see I have an issue with the hysteresis, but knew that going in.
The 207 does lock but the above issue is not helping at all.

Very curious I was copying a signal when wwvb was off, must have been MSF.
It was pretty darn weak at -85db.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 9:40 PM, John Seamons  wrote:

> On Apr 14, 2012, at 7:05 PM, Jim Hickstein wrote:
>
> > Did they start early?  Both my Spectracom 8164 and 8170 are unlocked.  I
> was expecting this, but not before 0130Z.
>
> The transmitter went off-air starting at 0100Z. Back on now at 0130
> presumably with PSK. I'm recording, but haven't done any decoding yet. I'm
> hoping this test is more than just the static data pattern from last time.
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB phase-modulation test

[John Seamons]

On Apr 14, 2012, at 7:05 PM, Jim Hickstein wrote:

> Did they start early?  Both my Spectracom 8164 and 8170 are unlocked.  I was 
> expecting this, but not before 0130Z.

The transmitter went off-air starting at 0100Z. Back on now at 0130 presumably 
with PSK. I'm recording, but haven't done any decoding yet. I'm hoping this 
test is more than just the static data pattern from last time.


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[time-nuts] WWVB phase-modulation test

[Jim Hickstein]

Did they start early?  Both my Spectracom 8164 and 8170 are unlocked.  I was 
expecting this, but not before 0130Z.


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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB phase modulation test April 15-16

[Charles P. Steinmetz]

Hal wrote:


How many of you have used the Tek scope-probe to BNC adapter?  I tried a bit
but couldn't find anything on the web.  The idea was (roughly) that you put a
BNC Tee in the line you wanted to watch and this magic gizmo on the Tee.


I have some.  I don't use them often, but they are very useful on 
occasion (when you want to insert a sampling port in coax with 
minimal disturbance to the line).  You normally use them with 10x 
probes to minimize the capacitive loading at the sampling port.  They 
used to appear on eBay quite frequently for $2-$5 each, but for the 
last year or so sellers seem to be very proud of them.


Note that you need one that matches your probe tip (5 mm, 3.5 mm, or 
2.5 mm ground sleeve).


Best regards,

Charles







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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB phase modulation test April 15-16

[Azelio Boriani]

I have a couple of BNC-to-scope_probe adapters...

On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Hal Murray  wrote:

>
> > Just the T and a DC block. 1/4 wave at 60 kHz is far, far longer than any
> > cable you have.
>
> This is time-nuts.  Somebody is likely to do something most of us would
> consider, well, nutty.
>
> It's probably reasonable to make a lumped-circuit approximation of a long
> transmission line at 60 KHz or 100 KHz.
>
> Many years ago, when we were working on early 10 Mb Ethernet, a friend
> rigged
> up a good approximation to a long chunk of coax with 1 R and 1 C and a few
> clip leads.  It looked pretty good on a scope.
>
> I ordered several 500 ft spools of coax so we could test the real thing.
>  500
> ft of Ethernet coax (not thinwire) is a serious spool.  A key step was
> getting the maintainance guy to build a dolly with serious casters.  He was
> happy to do something strange.  The result was slight overkill which is
> what
> I wanted.  It worked great.  Every lab should have one.  :)
>
> How many of you have used the Tek scope-probe to BNC adapter?  I tried a
> bit
> but couldn't find anything on the web.  The idea was (roughly) that you
> put a
> BNC Tee in the line you wanted to watch and this magic gizmo on the Tee.
>  One
> end was BNC.  The other end was a hole where you inserted a scope probe.
>  The
> idea was to avoid the inductance on the pigtail for the ground cliplead.
>
> --
>
> Not quite so many years ago, we built a SONET/OC-3 delay box.  It was just
> a
> fiber optic receiver, FPGA, knobs, memory, and fiber optic transmitter.
>  The
> FPGA could just barely  run at 155 megabits.  We used a recycled memory
> module.  I think it was 36 bits wide with 1 megabit chips.  The idea was to
> let the software guys test long links in their lab.  It worked great.  (I
> think that size memory covered (roughly) California to Paris.)
>
>
> --
> These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB phase modulation test April 15-16

[Hal Murray]

> Just the T and a DC block. 1/4 wave at 60 kHz is far, far longer than any
> cable you have. 

This is time-nuts.  Somebody is likely to do something most of us would 
consider, well, nutty.

It's probably reasonable to make a lumped-circuit approximation of a long 
transmission line at 60 KHz or 100 KHz.

Many years ago, when we were working on early 10 Mb Ethernet, a friend rigged 
up a good approximation to a long chunk of coax with 1 R and 1 C and a few 
clip leads.  It looked pretty good on a scope.

I ordered several 500 ft spools of coax so we could test the real thing.  500 
ft of Ethernet coax (not thinwire) is a serious spool.  A key step was 
getting the maintainance guy to build a dolly with serious casters.  He was 
happy to do something strange.  The result was slight overkill which is what 
I wanted.  It worked great.  Every lab should have one.  :)

How many of you have used the Tek scope-probe to BNC adapter?  I tried a bit 
but couldn't find anything on the web.  The idea was (roughly) that you put a 
BNC Tee in the line you wanted to watch and this magic gizmo on the Tee.  One 
end was BNC.  The other end was a hole where you inserted a scope probe.  The 
idea was to avoid the inductance on the pigtail for the ground cliplead.

--

Not quite so many years ago, we built a SONET/OC-3 delay box.  It was just a 
fiber optic receiver, FPGA, knobs, memory, and fiber optic transmitter.  The 
FPGA could just barely  run at 155 megabits.  We used a recycled memory 
module.  I think it was 36 bits wide with 1 megabit chips.  The idea was to 
let the software guys test long links in their lab.  It worked great.  (I 
think that size memory covered (roughly) California to Paris.)


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB phase modulation test April 15-16

[paul swed]

John hit the nail on the head. I have done that for both wwvb and loran c.

On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 9:47 PM, J. Forster  wrote:

> Just the T and a DC block. 1/4 wave at 60 kHz is far, far longer than any
> cable you have.
>
> -John
>
> ==
>
>
> > For this test coming up, I really want to get both my Spectracom devices,
> > 8164
> > and 8170, going at the same time, if only to see that they both go crazy
> > exactly
> > on time, yet I'm too lazy to install the second 8206 antenna in a decent
> > location.  Do I need a power splitter to do this?  Over at
> > http://www.febo.com/time-freq/wwvb/sig-strength/spectracom-antenna.html
> > John
> > says he just used a BNC tee and a DC block.  Did he get an even balance?
> > Close
> > enough?  Is there not enough power in a receiver system to make a
> > difference?
> >
> > I realize the AGC will be open-loop in one of them.  Big deal?  I will
> > lose at
> > least 3dB on each.  Can I afford to?  My reception has been lousy lately,
> > unlocking during the day when it used to power straight through, even
> > after I
> > moved my 8206 to a much better, outdoor location.  But so has the
> > monitoring
> > station's in LaCrosse, which is not far from here.
> >
> >
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> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> >
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB phase modulation test April 15-16

[J. Forster]

Just the T and a DC block. 1/4 wave at 60 kHz is far, far longer than any
cable you have.

-John

==


> For this test coming up, I really want to get both my Spectracom devices,
> 8164
> and 8170, going at the same time, if only to see that they both go crazy
> exactly
> on time, yet I'm too lazy to install the second 8206 antenna in a decent
> location.  Do I need a power splitter to do this?  Over at
> http://www.febo.com/time-freq/wwvb/sig-strength/spectracom-antenna.html
> John
> says he just used a BNC tee and a DC block.  Did he get an even balance?
> Close
> enough?  Is there not enough power in a receiver system to make a
> difference?
>
> I realize the AGC will be open-loop in one of them.  Big deal?  I will
> lose at
> least 3dB on each.  Can I afford to?  My reception has been lousy lately,
> unlocking during the day when it used to power straight through, even
> after I
> moved my 8206 to a much better, outdoor location.  But so has the
> monitoring
> station's in LaCrosse, which is not far from here.
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB phase modulation test April 15-16

[Jim Hickstein]

For this test coming up, I really want to get both my Spectracom devices, 8164 
and 8170, going at the same time, if only to see that they both go crazy exactly 
on time, yet I'm too lazy to install the second 8206 antenna in a decent 
location.  Do I need a power splitter to do this?  Over at 
http://www.febo.com/time-freq/wwvb/sig-strength/spectracom-antenna.html John 
says he just used a BNC tee and a DC block.  Did he get an even balance?  Close 
enough?  Is there not enough power in a receiver system to make a difference?


I realize the AGC will be open-loop in one of them.  Big deal?  I will lose at 
least 3dB on each.  Can I afford to?  My reception has been lousy lately, 
unlocking during the day when it used to power straight through, even after I 
moved my 8206 to a much better, outdoor location.  But so has the monitoring 
station's in LaCrosse, which is not far from here.



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[time-nuts] WWVB phase modulation test April 15-16

[Dennis Ferguson]

The WWVB web page at NIST, here

http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/wwvb.cfm

has a notice about another phase modulation test on
Sunday and Monday.

Dennis Ferguson

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