Re: [time-nuts] time.gov reply from NIST

[Bill Byrom]

Thanks for this post, Jerry. Could you please forward my post to Andrew?
As you can see below, I have some issues about the widget I want to
discuss with him, and I don't have his email address. I visit NIST
Boulder every couple of months for business, but I'm never meeting with
people in his group.

I noticed unusual errors (of up to about 1 second) when the thread first
appeared here, and also noticed different errors when using the NIST
widget on my personal website. But tonight (as I'm posting), I'm
listening to 5 MHz WWV from the Dallas TX area and see no visible error
(within my human ability) comparing listening on an AM receiver to WWV
while watching these websites:

(1) http://nist.time.gov/
(2) http://time.gov/widget/widget.html  
(3) http://time.gov/widget/ 

All three of these URL's work on most desktop browsers. The first two
don't need Flash, but (3) uses Flash. So (3) won't work on a mobile
Apple device which doesn't support Flash (such as an iOS device such as
an iPad, iPod, or iPhone).

In August 2011 (which I believe was shortly after the (3) Flash widget
was first published), I found a bug in the (3) Flash widget which
prevented the display between 12:00:00 AM and 12:59:50 AM (or 00:00:00
and 00:59:00 in 24-hr mode). The display instead showed PM (in 12-hr
mode) during that interval. I have an email I sent myself about this bug
but I can't find any email traffic to or from NIST at that time. It was
fixed long ago, so they may have fixed it without my complaint or I
might have spoken to them on the telephone.

I find that the Flash widget (3) works fine when the code is placed on
my website, but instructions are not available to do this for the
non-Flash (2) widget. I wish NIST would update the (2) non-Flash widget
so that it could be easily installed on another website. If anyone knows
how to do this, please let me know! I'm hoping Andrew can assist me.
--
Bill Byrom N5BB

- Original message -
From: Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
<time-nuts@febo.com>
Subject: [time-nuts] time.gov reply from NIST
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 17:45:45 -0700

Sounds like there was a change made to the time.gov code recently that
could have caused the error we noticed.  I replied to Andrew that I
didn’t remember the time.gov site loading any slower or faster than
usual.


Jerry, 

Thanks for writing.  I have had a few reports of incorrect time, but
they were from people comparing to cell phones and WWVB clocks.  I have
not been able to replicate any errors, but I had our network folks
verify that the servers serving the web content are synchronizing with
NTPd to NIST servers.  I trust time-nuts implicitly - if you guys say
there's a problem, I believe it.

It would be difficult to believe that the server clocks could be on that
far, and then corrected, and then off again.  If a refresh fixes it,
then I'm confident that it is a network problem. The app corrects for
half the round-trip delay, assuming that to be a good estimate for the
one way delay from the web server.  However, if there is a network
bottleneck or vary slow packet transfer in one direction, then the
correction will not be accurate.  Have you happened to notice if it
looked like it took several seconds to connect after making the web
request?

I might have to take out the correction and just report the delay, how
it used to be.  This is also how the widget operates:
http://time.gov/widget/widget.html <http://time.gov/widget/widget.html> 
So a check of the widget at the time the HTML5 application is showing an
error I would expect it to be correct.  

Thanks for the information!  Please keep in touch.

Andrew Novick
NIST
(xxx) xxx -  phone removed by Jerry

On 5/12/2017 11:15 AM, Jerry Hancock wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I am a member of a group of individuals called time-nuts.  Most of us have 
> atomic clocks or at a minimum, GPS disciplined oscillators that record and 
> display time with a variance below 10 nanoseconds.  Yesterday around 14:00 
> Pacific Time I noticed while setting a new watch that time.gov 
> <http://time.gov/> was as much as 5 seconds slow.  After reporting this on 
> the time-nuts site, other members found the same discrepancy.  This was 
> corrected later in the day.  At least one member of our group reported that 
> refreshing the site corrected the error.  I found that by running the flash 
> application that also corrected the error.  Since around 18:00 Pacific 
> yesterday the error has been corrected.
> 
> Can you account for the discrepancy?  
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Jerry Hancock
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[time-nuts] time.gov reply from NIST

[Jerry Hancock]

Sounds like there was a change made to the time.gov code recently that could 
have caused the error we noticed.  I replied to Andrew that I didn’t remember 
the time.gov site loading any slower or faster than usual.


Jerry, 

Thanks for writing.  I have had a few reports of incorrect time, but they were 
from people comparing to cell phones and WWVB clocks.  I have not been able to 
replicate any errors, but I had our network folks verify that the servers 
serving the web content are synchronizing with NTPd to NIST servers.  I trust 
time-nuts implicitly - if you guys say there's a problem, I believe it.

It would be difficult to believe that the server clocks could be on that far, 
and then corrected, and then off again.  If a refresh fixes it, then I'm 
confident that it is a network problem. The app corrects for half the 
round-trip delay, assuming that to be a good estimate for the one way delay 
from the web server.  However, if there is a network bottleneck or vary slow 
packet transfer in one direction, then the correction will not be accurate.  
Have you happened to notice if it looked like it took several seconds to 
connect after making the web request?

I might have to take out the correction and just report the delay, how it used 
to be.  This is also how the widget operates: 
http://time.gov/widget/widget.html   So a 
check of the widget at the time the HTML5 application is showing an error I 
would expect it to be correct.  

Thanks for the information!  Please keep in touch.

Andrew Novick
NIST
(xxx) xxx -  phone removed by Jerry

On 5/12/2017 11:15 AM, Jerry Hancock wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I am a member of a group of individuals called time-nuts.  Most of us have 
> atomic clocks or at a minimum, GPS disciplined oscillators that record and 
> display time with a variance below 10 nanoseconds.  Yesterday around 14:00 
> Pacific Time I noticed while setting a new watch that time.gov 
>  was as much as 5 seconds slow.  After reporting this on 
> the time-nuts site, other members found the same discrepancy.  This was 
> corrected later in the day.  At least one member of our group reported that 
> refreshing the site corrected the error.  I found that by running the flash 
> application that also corrected the error.  Since around 18:00 Pacific 
> yesterday the error has been corrected.
> 
> Can you account for the discrepancy?  
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Jerry Hancock
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Re: [time-nuts] time.gov

[Jerry Hancock]

I sent a note to the site contact this morning asking if they can explain the 
discrepancy.

More to come.

Jerry


> On May 12, 2017, at 3:33 AM, Tim Shoppa <tsho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I was observing a consistent 5-second discrepancy between real time (GPS,
> WWV, and NTP sources were checked) and time.gov web page last night.
> 
> Round-trip web request/response time between me and time.gov is less than
> 100ms.
> 
> This morning it is working fine.
> 
> Note that whenever I drive by the Naval Observatory I try to at least
> glance at my watch and compare it to the big clock too :-). Occasionally
> their LED clock on Mass Ave is off.
> 
> Tim N3QE
> 
> On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 6:09 PM, Donald E. Pauly <trojancow...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/date.html
>> 
>> About 10 years ago, I checked my WWVB time code receiver that I built
>> against time.gov and it was within 0.1 seconds.  That was as close as
>> the eyeball can tell.  You report a huge error and if confirmed, you
>> should complain.  I would double check against WWV since WWVB is now
>> worthless for time comparison.  That webpage is supposed to be
>> compensated for network delay within 0.1 second.
>> 
>> Just now at 15:00:00 MST I checked my phone with time.gov on wireless
>> versus a full size computer also on wireless.  I momentarily saw the
>> phone 65 seconds ahead of the computer.  After hitting refresh and
>> going off wireless and directly to my carrier, the phone matched the
>> computer.  I had a witness but cannot get the problem to reappear.  I
>> don't know exactly why the problem went away.  Some servers may cache
>> web pages so refresh may be necessary.
>> 
>> πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ
>> WB0KVV
>> 
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com>
>> Date: Thu, May 11, 2017 at 2:36 PM
>> Subject: [time-nuts] time.gov
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
>> time-nuts@febo.com>
>> 
>> 
>> I went to time.gov today as I was sitting away from my lab when a new
>> watch arrived.  Finally got the 25yr watch from the company that laid
>> me off a week later…
>> 
>> Anyway, I set the seconds rollover to 00 when time.gov reset and then
>> walked down to my lab and noticed the watch is now 6 seconds slow.  So
>> I checked again with another computer, same problem, www.time.gov is 6
>> seconds slow.  Never say this happen, usually it is right on the money
>> give or take about .2 seconds.
>> 
>> Jerry
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] time.gov

[Tim Shoppa]

I was observing a consistent 5-second discrepancy between real time (GPS,
WWV, and NTP sources were checked) and time.gov web page last night.

Round-trip web request/response time between me and time.gov is less than
100ms.

This morning it is working fine.

Note that whenever I drive by the Naval Observatory I try to at least
glance at my watch and compare it to the big clock too :-). Occasionally
their LED clock on Mass Ave is off.

Tim N3QE

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 6:09 PM, Donald E. Pauly <trojancow...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/date.html
>
> About 10 years ago, I checked my WWVB time code receiver that I built
> against time.gov and it was within 0.1 seconds.  That was as close as
> the eyeball can tell.  You report a huge error and if confirmed, you
> should complain.  I would double check against WWV since WWVB is now
> worthless for time comparison.  That webpage is supposed to be
> compensated for network delay within 0.1 second.
>
> Just now at 15:00:00 MST I checked my phone with time.gov on wireless
> versus a full size computer also on wireless.  I momentarily saw the
> phone 65 seconds ahead of the computer.  After hitting refresh and
> going off wireless and directly to my carrier, the phone matched the
> computer.  I had a witness but cannot get the problem to reappear.  I
> don't know exactly why the problem went away.  Some servers may cache
> web pages so refresh may be necessary.
>
> πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ
> WB0KVV
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com>
> Date: Thu, May 11, 2017 at 2:36 PM
> Subject: [time-nuts] time.gov
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
> time-nuts@febo.com>
>
>
> I went to time.gov today as I was sitting away from my lab when a new
> watch arrived.  Finally got the 25yr watch from the company that laid
> me off a week later…
>
> Anyway, I set the seconds rollover to 00 when time.gov reset and then
> walked down to my lab and noticed the watch is now 6 seconds slow.  So
> I checked again with another computer, same problem, www.time.gov is 6
> seconds slow.  Never say this happen, usually it is right on the money
> give or take about .2 seconds.
>
> Jerry
> ___
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] time.gov

[Jerry Hancock]

Since the application takes into account the network speed, maybe there is a 
cacheing issue initially that is then corrected when you refresh the page?  
It’s no longer doing it now but was for several hours earlier today.  

Strange.
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Re: [time-nuts] time.gov

[David G. McGaw]

Just tried it, came up 4 sec. slow.  Refreshed the page and it was correct.

David N1HAC


On 5/11/17 7:52 PM, Jerry Hancock wrote:

I checked it on two different computers and again just now, all were counting 
5+ seconds slow.  I then downloaded their flash app which as an option I never 
had to do and that was correct.  Both of the apps claim to be adjusted for 
network delay.

This was around 14:00Pacific.  I just checked again and both apps are now 
correct.  I’ll have to dig into the issue.



On May 11, 2017, at 3:09 PM, Donald E. Pauly <trojancow...@gmail.com> wrote:

https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/date.html

About 10 years ago, I checked my WWVB time code receiver that I built
against time.gov and it was within 0.1 seconds.  That was as close as
the eyeball can tell.  You report a huge error and if confirmed, you
should complain.  I would double check against WWV since WWVB is now
worthless for time comparison.  That webpage is supposed to be
compensated for network delay within 0.1 second.

Just now at 15:00:00 MST I checked my phone with time.gov on wireless
versus a full size computer also on wireless.  I momentarily saw the
phone 65 seconds ahead of the computer.  After hitting refresh and
going off wireless and directly to my carrier, the phone matched the
computer.  I had a witness but cannot get the problem to reappear.  I
don't know exactly why the problem went away.  Some servers may cache
web pages so refresh may be necessary.

πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ
WB0KVV

-- Forwarded message --
From: Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com>
Date: Thu, May 11, 2017 at 2:36 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] time.gov
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts@febo.com>


I went to time.gov today as I was sitting away from my lab when a new
watch arrived.  Finally got the 25yr watch from the company that laid
me off a week later…

Anyway, I set the seconds rollover to 00 when time.gov reset and then
walked down to my lab and noticed the watch is now 6 seconds slow.  So
I checked again with another computer, same problem, www.time.gov is 6
seconds slow.  Never say this happen, usually it is right on the money
give or take about .2 seconds.

Jerry
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Re: [time-nuts] time.gov

[Jerry Hancock]

I checked it on two different computers and again just now, all were counting 
5+ seconds slow.  I then downloaded their flash app which as an option I never 
had to do and that was correct.  Both of the apps claim to be adjusted for 
network delay. 

This was around 14:00Pacific.  I just checked again and both apps are now 
correct.  I’ll have to dig into the issue.


> On May 11, 2017, at 3:09 PM, Donald E. Pauly <trojancow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/date.html
> 
> About 10 years ago, I checked my WWVB time code receiver that I built
> against time.gov and it was within 0.1 seconds.  That was as close as
> the eyeball can tell.  You report a huge error and if confirmed, you
> should complain.  I would double check against WWV since WWVB is now
> worthless for time comparison.  That webpage is supposed to be
> compensated for network delay within 0.1 second.
> 
> Just now at 15:00:00 MST I checked my phone with time.gov on wireless
> versus a full size computer also on wireless.  I momentarily saw the
> phone 65 seconds ahead of the computer.  After hitting refresh and
> going off wireless and directly to my carrier, the phone matched the
> computer.  I had a witness but cannot get the problem to reappear.  I
> don't know exactly why the problem went away.  Some servers may cache
> web pages so refresh may be necessary.
> 
> πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ
> WB0KVV
> 
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com>
> Date: Thu, May 11, 2017 at 2:36 PM
> Subject: [time-nuts] time.gov
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts@febo.com>
> 
> 
> I went to time.gov today as I was sitting away from my lab when a new
> watch arrived.  Finally got the 25yr watch from the company that laid
> me off a week later…
> 
> Anyway, I set the seconds rollover to 00 when time.gov reset and then
> walked down to my lab and noticed the watch is now 6 seconds slow.  So
> I checked again with another computer, same problem, www.time.gov is 6
> seconds slow.  Never say this happen, usually it is right on the money
> give or take about .2 seconds.
> 
> Jerry
> ___
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[time-nuts] time.gov

[Donald E. Pauly]

https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/date.html

About 10 years ago, I checked my WWVB time code receiver that I built
against time.gov and it was within 0.1 seconds.  That was as close as
the eyeball can tell.  You report a huge error and if confirmed, you
should complain.  I would double check against WWV since WWVB is now
worthless for time comparison.  That webpage is supposed to be
compensated for network delay within 0.1 second.

Just now at 15:00:00 MST I checked my phone with time.gov on wireless
versus a full size computer also on wireless.  I momentarily saw the
phone 65 seconds ahead of the computer.  After hitting refresh and
going off wireless and directly to my carrier, the phone matched the
computer.  I had a witness but cannot get the problem to reappear.  I
don't know exactly why the problem went away.  Some servers may cache
web pages so refresh may be necessary.

πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ
WB0KVV

-- Forwarded message --
From: Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com>
Date: Thu, May 11, 2017 at 2:36 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] time.gov
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts@febo.com>


I went to time.gov today as I was sitting away from my lab when a new
watch arrived.  Finally got the 25yr watch from the company that laid
me off a week later…

Anyway, I set the seconds rollover to 00 when time.gov reset and then
walked down to my lab and noticed the watch is now 6 seconds slow.  So
I checked again with another computer, same problem, www.time.gov is 6
seconds slow.  Never say this happen, usually it is right on the money
give or take about .2 seconds.

Jerry
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[time-nuts] time.gov

[Jerry Hancock]

I went to time.gov today as I was sitting away from my lab when a new watch 
arrived.  Finally got the 25yr watch from the company that laid me off a week 
later…

Anyway, I set the seconds rollover to 00 when time.gov reset and then walked 
down to my lab and noticed the watch is now 6 seconds slow.  So I checked again 
with another computer, same problem, www.time.gov is 6 seconds slow.  Never say 
this happen, usually it is right on the money give or take about .2 seconds.

Jerry
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