Re: [time-nuts] ThunderBolt question

2020-06-06 Thread Dana Whitlow
RIght! (about Ligado). Well, it sounds like you might be OK with your 4 way splitter and roughly 10 dB of added attenuation. Somewhat of a point can be made in favor of using attenuation to the extent you can, just so that strong local disturbances (like those famous Arizona lightning strikes)

Re: [time-nuts] ThunderBolt question

2020-06-06 Thread Wes
Dana, I have about 45 feet of RG6 into a two-way splitter, currently feeding two receivers, a BG7TBL GPSDO (U-blox) and a TAPR/Synergy GPS Timing Kit (M12+).  So each device has about 7 dB loss in front of it.  As a crude test if I add a stepped attenuator in the line to the TAPR receiver and

Re: [time-nuts] ThunderBolt question

2020-06-06 Thread Bob kb8tq
Hi Their engineering group also backs up this statement if you ask them about it face to face. The answer that comes back is: “We ran a bunch of tests with 75 and 50 ohm cable, we could see no difference in the results”. Bob > On Jun 6, 2020, at 1:30 PM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts > wrote: >

Re: [time-nuts] ThunderBolt question

2020-06-06 Thread Taka Kamiya via time-nuts
In case of thunderbolt, the manufacturer openly recommends use of 75 ohm cable.  The manufacturer openly states not to be concerned with a mismatch.  They are in manuals.  --- (Mr.) Taka Kamiya KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG

Re: [time-nuts] ThunderBolt question

2020-06-06 Thread Dana Whitlow
Wes, it sounds like you're in pretty good shape with one thing that concerns me. Unless your transmission line is long enough to have substantial loss, that 40 dB gain figure seems awfully high and you may find yourself overloading the front end of your receiver. Most modern receivers are

Re: [time-nuts] ThunderBolt question

2020-06-06 Thread Tom Holmes
As the chip is a message, not a time hack per se, all the delay can do is make it more difficult to decode the message. That's how these COFDM-type schemes work. It's why your digital TV signal (which in the US is not a COFDM signal, but still behaves similarly) falls off a cliff when things

Re: [time-nuts] ThunderBolt question

2020-06-06 Thread Bob kb8tq
Hi A “cable echo” looks like any other multi-path signal. Your local environment provides *lots* of those all the time. That's regardless of how hard you try to get rid of them. If they are *stronger* than the main signal (which they can be in a “bounce off a building" case) they really mess

Re: [time-nuts] ThunderBolt question

2020-06-06 Thread Wes
Conventional wisdom says yes to this. I'm not so sure, if the cable is well-made, but some of the stuff is really garbage. I'm using RG-6 cable purchased at DX Engineering, mainly because I had a gift certificate for my last order.  It's quality stuff, but if you're going to use F connectors

Re: [time-nuts] ThunderBolt question

2020-06-06 Thread Dana Whitlow
I wish I could give some numbers. Sadly, I don't know how to calculate them nor do I have the equipment to do empirical measurements of that level of accuracy. But I could do an arm-waving estimate. Suppose that the delayed signal component is in phase with the direct signal, but 20 dB down,

Re: [time-nuts] ThunderBolt question

2020-06-06 Thread Tom Holmes
No caveats required. Give some numbers on how loud that MP signal has to be to cause a problem. My original example of line losses for a relatively short cable still suggests to me that it is a minimal problem. If the S/N of a satellite is poor, the receiver algorithm is likely to not use it

Re: [time-nuts] ThunderBolt question

2020-06-06 Thread Bob kb8tq
Hi Do a little research and You will find that a 3 db noise figure is as good as it gets with a receiver who’s front end is a perfect match to the transmission line …. (Signal goes down 6 db when you match, noise drops by 3 db ….). Unless you are using some sort of ferrite isolator on the

Re: [time-nuts] ThunderBolt question

2020-06-06 Thread Dana Whitlow
Basically true, Tom, but with some caveats: The GPS system was originally designed, as you say, to provide positions and velocity information to military users in the field. Errors of a few meters were of little consequence. But now, we have the time-nuts, surveyors, etc, who are decidedly

Re: [time-nuts] ThunderBolt question

2020-06-06 Thread Tom Holmes
Dana... The question that comes to mind is just how much effect a weak a long delayed reflection will have on overall system performance since it will only matter to SV’s with poor S/N. The modulation scene which allows all the SV's to transmit on the same frequency has to be pretty robust in

Re: [time-nuts] ThunderBolt question

2020-06-06 Thread Dana Whitlow
I must take issue with John's statement that "impedance matching is easy". It's easy only in the case of very limited bandwidth and if you are willing to ignore such issues as getting good IMD performance, good noise performance, and good broadband AC stability. The last item is critically

Re: [time-nuts] ThunderBolt question

2020-06-06 Thread Dana Whitlow
It's one thing to maintain lock in a multipath environment, quite another thing to get "full" accuracy of GPS measurements of PVT. An interesting difference between my scenario of poorly matched impedances and "ordinary" multipath is this: In the poor matching scenario, all the received signals

Re: [time-nuts] ThunderBolt question

2020-06-06 Thread Bill Beam
The original question was need for impedance matching between gps antenna and Tbolt. The responses were accurate and appropriate. 50 Ohm vs 75 Ohm is a nonissue. On Sat, 6 Jun 2020 07:11:49 +, John Moran, Scawby Design wrote: >Everyone ... >I must admit to being amazed at the cavalier

Re: [time-nuts] ThunderBolt question

2020-06-06 Thread John Moran, Scawby Design
Everyone ... I must admit to being amazed at the cavalier attitude to impedance matching. I dread to think what a state we would be in if the original telecoms networks were designed with such disregard. OK, my background is in the old telecoms - land-line stuff where we had a variety of