Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

>In a car it is even easier. The car nav system KNOWS it must be on a >roadway. The car's ground track (positional history) must be on a road. That's assuming the GPS company keeps their maps up to date (it doesn't matter how often you update the maps in the device if the company's maps don't

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

The trouble with spoofing location is that in theory every ship is using more than one method of navigation. They would notice their GPS is acting up and turn it off. I'm far from a professional but I've taken the six week class and I'm reasonably certain I could find a place on the other side

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Hi Consider what your automotive GPS receiver does coming out of a tunnel or out from under a bunch of trees. It still needs to work correctly in that situation. Same thing with a big rain cloud “over there”. I don’t think you would want a receiver that went nuts in those cases. I don’t

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Hi, Sure, some have started to work on it, but far from it. Traditional navigation helps a lot. While you have signal you can trim continously. Cheers, Magnus On 08/14/2017 07:43 PM, paul swed wrote: Sextent, compass, and clock. Amazingly as posted on time nuts some time ago the Navy and

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Remember the military drone that the Iranians tricked into landing in Iran a few years ago? The best explanation I heard of how they did it was that they knew that if it lost its command channel, that it would return to the airport where it took off. So, what they did was spoof the GPS with a

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Detecting a spoof is not really so hard. What you need to redundancy. When the two navigation methods diverge then you know one of them is acting up. (that is broken or being spoofed or just buggy) On a ship you have magnetic compass and knot log and almost certainly gyros and all these are

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

albertson.ch...@gmail.com said: > I'm far from a professional but I've taken the six week class and I'm > reasonably certain I could find a place on the other side of the pacific > ocean with no GPS. The GPS is far easier to use and more accurate but no > one uses just GPS alone, they alway

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Hi Setting up the signals for any time / location on earth is simply matter of a few mouse clicks with any of a number of packages. No need to do anything more than that to get the data. Bob > On Aug 14, 2017, at 3:02 PM, Graham / KE9H wrote: > > Remember the

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

On 8/14/17 10:24 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote: Hi Jim, On 08/14/2017 06:03 PM, jimlux wrote: And GPS users who care about spoofing tend to use antenna systems that will reject signals coming from the "wrong" direction. It's pretty easy to set up 3 antenna separated by 30 cm or so and tell what

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

HI Since multi path is a real issue in a mobile environment, defining what an “abnormal” change is could be quite tricky. A reasonable “spoof” would start with feeding the correct data and then slowly capture the target (still with correct data). Once he is are “in charge” signal wise, start

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Hi > On Aug 14, 2017, at 2:13 PM, Chris Albertson > wrote: > > The trouble with spoofing location is that in theory every ship is using > more than one method of navigation. They would notice their GPS is acting > up and turn it off. In most cases the “other

Re: [time-nuts] Sharing a GPS Antenna

Clay Antennas can be shared through splitters. I have an 8 port satellite TV splitter. Auto sense DC and DC blocking. Inexpensive and on ebay and amazon. Interestingly 8 ports is never enough when your a time-nut. So you can do the same simply come off of one of your new ports from the splitter. I

Re: [time-nuts] How well does GPS work in the Arcitic?

Hi At the time all this was figured out, the idea of the military needing nav at the poles was pretty far fetched. They accepted a bit of degradation in those regions as a result of this thinking. Bob > On Aug 14, 2017, at 7:45 PM, Hal Murray wrote: > > > The

Re: [time-nuts] PLL book 3rd edition

Ulrich - Did anyone ever agree to help update this? Regards Dave On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 3:13 PM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote: > > Why don't you look at the outline to determine what might be needed or > missing . > > Ulrich > > > > > In a message dated 3/11/2016

Re: [time-nuts] How well does GPS work in the Arcitic?

GPS orbit inclination is 50-60deg. At my latitude of 65N satellites are about 15deg above the horizon to the north. Regards. On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 16:45:22 -0700, Hal Murray wrote: >The satellite orbits only go so far north? If you are far enough north for >that to be a problem, can you pick up

Re: [time-nuts] How well does GPS work in the Arcitic?

Hi If you are at ICBM mid course altitudes, there are a *lot* of sat’s visible …. (at least compared to being on the ground). Bob > On Aug 14, 2017, at 9:04 PM, jimlux wrote: > > On 8/14/17 5:12 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: >> Hi >> >> At the time all this was figured out, the

[time-nuts] How well does GPS work in the Arcitic?

The satellite orbits only go so far north? If you are far enough north for that to be a problem, can you pick up the satellites across the pole? I have several days of NMEA log files from 68 N. I think it will be simple after I have done it, but it may be a while before I get time to plot

Re: [time-nuts] How well does GPS work in the Arcitic?

On 8/14/17 5:12 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: Hi At the time all this was figured out, the idea of the military needing nav at the poles was pretty far fetched. They accepted a bit of degradation in those regions as a result of this thinking. I don't know about that - I think it was more that it

Re: [time-nuts] How well does GPS work in the Arcitic?

On 8/14/17 5:58 PM, Bill Beam wrote: GPS orbit inclination is 50-60deg. 55 degrees At my latitude of 65N satellites are about 15deg above the horizon to the north. That would be for satellites that are "over the pole" with respect to you? ___

Re: [time-nuts] How well does GPS work in the Arcitic?

On 8/14/17 4:45 PM, Hal Murray wrote: The satellite orbits only go so far north? If you are far enough north for that to be a problem, can you pick up the satellites across the pole? I have several days of NMEA log files from 68 N. I think it will be simple after I have done it, but it may

Re: [time-nuts] How well does GPS work in the Arcitic?

On 8/14/17 6:15 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: Hi If you are at ICBM mid course altitudes, there are a *lot* of sat’s visible …. (at least compared to being on the ground). But do you get good VDOP? I don't know how high the typical ICBM trajectory goes, I assumed it's fairly low (why burn to get

Re: [time-nuts] How well does GPS work in the Arcitic?

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 18:19:56 -0700, jimlux wrote: >On 8/14/17 5:58 PM, Bill Beam wrote: >> GPS orbit inclination is 50-60deg. >55 degrees Current TLE show I= low of 51.7 to I= high of 56.6. >> At my latitude of 65N satellites are about 15deg above the horizon to the >> north. >That would be

[time-nuts] Lady Heather 5.00 doesn't keep time

Looking at the log file, it looks like the receiver is sending garbage data. I have some USB dongles with a (supposedly) Prolific PL23xx chip in them. After, typically a day or two, they start sending corrupted data. I think the problem showed up after installing some program that updated

[time-nuts] Lady Heather 5.00 doesn't keep time

I installed version 5.00 of Lady Heather as the 3.1 version was affected by the GPS Rollover. It stopped displaying the digital clock which I used as a station clock for my ham radio logging. So I installed and ran version 5.00, specifying the digital clock. It worked for a while with correct

Re: [time-nuts] Lady Heather 5.00 doesn't keep time

On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 12:58:53AM +, JULIAN TOPOLSKI wrote: > Checking with WWV on the radio, the WSJTX clock is right on but LH > is off by some 20 seconds. Is there a bug in LH5.00? Is there an > option I didn't set? The 3.1 version worked without any special > options other than full

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

It might have been a hoax but I'm sure I saw it demonstrated by a couple of students who used it to fool Pokémon go... On 14 Aug 2017 8:27 am, "Martin Burnicki" wrote: > Clint Jay wrote: > > Didn't someone demonstrate this using some rather expensive but 'off the >

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Clint Jay wrote: > Absolutely, their use of it was for something trivial and my reason for > using that example was to show how 'simple' and available the technology is > if a couple of students could do it with lab equipment that anyone can buy > (obviously you'd need deep pockets). I just

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

This has been an area of interest to the US Air Force for many years: http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/aviation-international-news/2006-10-18/usaf-facility-tests-gps-jamming-vulnerability -- Bill Byrom N5BB On Mon, Aug 14, 2017, at 12:46 AM, Clint Jay wrote: > Didn't someone demonstrate

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Clint Jay wrote: > Absolutely, their use of it was for something trivial and my reason for > using that example was to show how 'simple' and available the technology is > if a couple of students could do it with lab equipment that anyone can buy > (obviously you'd need deep pockets). > > That it

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Hi Martin, No there was also a SDR hack to spoof. http://www.rtl-sdr.com/cheating-at-pokemon-go-with-a-hackrf-and-gps-spoofing/ --      Björn Sent from my smartphone. Original message From: Martin Burnicki Date: 14/08/2017 11:42 (GMT+01:00) To:

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

No, this was not the software hack, it was done with some rather nice Rohde test equipment. On 14 Aug 2017 10:42 am, "Martin Burnicki" wrote: > Clint Jay wrote: > > Absolutely, their use of it was for something trivial and my reason for > > using that example was

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Clint Jay wrote: > It might have been a hoax but I'm sure I saw it demonstrated by a couple of > students who used it to fool Pokémon go... Yes, I read about that, too. However, related to Pokémon go it's just fun, but related to serious application it can cause quite some damage.

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Absolutely, their use of it was for something trivial and my reason for using that example was to show how 'simple' and available the technology is if a couple of students could do it with lab equipment that anyone can buy (obviously you'd need deep pockets). That it can "so easily" be spoofed

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Clint Jay wrote: > Didn't someone demonstrate this using some rather expensive but 'off the > shelf' Rohde & Schwarz lab gear a year or so ago? https://news.utexas.edu/2013/07/29/ut-austin-researchers-successfully-spoof-an-80-million-yacht-at-sea

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Hi Björn, bg wrote: > Hi Martin, > No there was also a SDR hack to spoof. > http://www.rtl-sdr.com/cheating-at-pokemon-go-with-a-hackrf-and-gps-spoofing/ This sounds indeed like a nice way to test if a real spoofing approach is working properly, so it could also be used to do really evil things.

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Clint Jay wrote: > No, this was not the software hack, it was done with some rather nice > Rohde test equipment. Ah, OK, of course that's also possible. However, what I found was much simpler: https://devs-lab.com/how-to-play-pokemon-go-without-moving-no-root-required.html

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Oh definitely and if I was going to cheat at Pokémon then that'd be the most cost effective method (yes, I play, my 9 year old son insists) but I'd rather have the "fun" of actually catching them the proper way On 14 Aug 2017 12:08 pm, "Martin Burnicki" wrote: >

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:26:13 +0100 Clint Jay wrote: > That it can "so easily" be spoofed (it's not a trivial hack to spoof and > would, as far as I can see, take good knowledge of how GPS works and skill > to implement) is worrying and it could have disastrous consequences

[time-nuts] Lady Heather Crashing with Skipped Time Stamps and Changing Receiver Modes

I have LH installed on a fast Intel i5 Dual Core processor, no background programs, 8G RAM and it crashes after about 2 hours. Attached is the log and it seems that the end near the crash begins with skipped time stamps and changes in receiver mode. I hope someone can offer some advice or

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 12:09:43 -0400 Tim Shoppa wrote: > I think if you are only trying to spoof a single receiver it would be > possible to walk a spoofed time/space code in a way that time moved without > so obvious of a discontinuity. I'm sure there would be effects a

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

I guess it would depend on the level of infrastructure available to the attacker, clock distribution is a reasonably well solved problem isn't it? There would, I suppose also be the issue of receiver swamping, you could monitor received signal levels as it's my understanding that the signals from

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Bringing this back around to time-nuts - wouldn't the timescale discontinuity at the receiver, be a powerful clue that spoofing was going on? But these being navigation receivers they aren't looking so critically at the time. Presumably this was a single-transmitter jammer that pretended it was a

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

So, what I wonder: to what extent (if any) are GPS, GLONASS, and Galileo sufficiently different that it is challenging to spoof all three in the same way? Is there any reason why it is more than 3 times the work to spoof all 3? Is there something clever receivers can do, with awareness of all

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

On 8/14/17 8:24 AM, Attila Kinali wrote: On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:26:13 +0100 Clint Jay wrote: That it can "so easily" be spoofed (it's not a trivial hack to spoof and would, as far as I can see, take good knowledge of how GPS works and skill to implement) is worrying and

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Hi The big(er) deal with some systems is that they offer encrypted services. If you happen to have access to the crypto version, that’s going to help you. As long as you are using “public” (and thus fully documented) modes … not a lot of difference. The same info that lets anybody design a

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Hi Time is one more thing the spoofer needs to consider. It does not eliminate the ability to spoof, it just adds one more factor to his setup. If he’s got a “clear” GPS signal to base his spoof on, that gives him a timebase to use. Bob > On Aug 14, 2017, at 12:09 PM, Tim Shoppa

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

All very true and yes, for a capable programmer and hardware tech it's not going to be an impossible task. I would still expect a turnkey solution to exist though as I can see many applications for not just state actors. On 14 Aug 2017 4:32 pm, "Attila Kinali" wrote: > On

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Hi Jim, On 08/14/2017 06:03 PM, jimlux wrote: And GPS users who care about spoofing tend to use antenna systems that will reject signals coming from the "wrong" direction. It's pretty easy to set up 3 antenna separated by 30 cm or so and tell what direction the signal from each S/V is coming

[time-nuts] Sharing a GPS Antenna

I'm toying with the idea of trying to share a single PCTEL GPS antenna three-ways. I would prefer to NOT have to put up three different GPS antennas, have three different feed lines coming into the shack, et al. Need to feed: 1) GPSDO (currently a re-purposed Nortel unit) 5VDC spec antenna 2)

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Hi > On Aug 14, 2017, at 11:38 AM, Clint Jay wrote: > > All very true and yes, for a capable programmer and hardware tech it's not > going to be an impossible task. > > I would still expect a turnkey solution to exist though as I can see many > applications for not just

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Sextent, compass, and clock. Amazingly as posted on time nuts some time ago the Navy and Coast Guard have re-introduced that training. On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 1:24 PM, Magnus Danielson < mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote: > Hi Jim, > > On 08/14/2017 06:03 PM, jimlux wrote: > >> And GPS users who

Re: [time-nuts] Sharing a GPS Antenna

Thank you one and all for all the help and suggestions. I've got an HP 58516A w/external DC input option on the way. Now to find a proper N-male terminator for the unused port, and start gathering up cable and connectors to hook it all up. __ Clay Autery, KY5G MONTAC

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Wouldn't monitoring the received signal strength and noting any non-normal increase (or decrease) level change indicate possible spoofing? The spoofing station would have no way to know what the target's received signal strength would be. Ken S --- This email has been checked for viruses by

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

In some sense the "jump everyone to the airport 32km away" is a too-simplistic case because it's too easy to detect. Let's just arbitrarily place 100nanoseconds as the threshold for detectable time jump indicating that you're being spoofed. Yes modern timing receivers do better than that all the

Re: [time-nuts] Ships fooled in GPS spoofing attack suggest Russian cyberweapon

Civilian receivers generally do not measure absolute strength but instead report S/N. The spoofer could fake up a reasonable amount of noise to get a wimpy S/N with a much stronger signal. Tim. On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 1:40 PM, ken Schwieker wrote: > Wouldn't monitoring