could
possibly improve the tempco by using oven current to tweak
the set point. This might cancel out circuit pulling drift,
regardless of what was going on with the crystal. I've never
actually tried this, but it would be good research project
well within the ability of any time nut.
Rick
,
just happened to have these in his junk box. A gazillion other
diodes would also work.
In the 5071A, we used a 10811 with a different tuning diode that
gives a 10X larger range and is linear tuning (being hyperabrupt).
There is nothing magic about the 0122-0244. Lots of diodes can work.
Rick
I wonder if the glass case got a crack in it or if the kovar seal
was failing. Maybe a failed solder joint (which gets fixed when you
install the new diode). I've never heard of a noisy varactor before either.
Rick
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because of the
10%. They are probably at least 30 years old!
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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, is a low noise Zener (I don't know
if it is the buried type), but anyway, it is a legacy part,
but a known good legacy part. The 5071A DAC was a very carefully
designed one that was good enough.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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Bruce Griffiths wrote:
Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
On 11/23/2012 9:38 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
NIST have shown (at least at 10MHz) that the high level mixers they
tested are noisier than the ZRPD1.
Bruce
http://tf.boulder.nist.gov/general/pdf/2556.pdf
Where all the high level
Jim Lux wrote:
On 11/26/12 10:11 AM, Demian Martin wrote:
I asked Wenzel about mixers for phase noise measurement and they
directed me
to Marki Microwave as what they use:
http://www.markimicrowave.com/2770/Mixers.aspx I have not obtained or
tested any myself but it's a pretty solid
.
A simple double balanced diode mixer followed by an LT1028
preamp would easily meet your needs.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
You might be surprised by the noise floor of an XOR run at 125 KHz. They
are quite good at that low a frequency.
Bob
An XOR, unlike a mixer, does not have a null when the
phases are in quadrature. This is the fundamental problem
with using it as a phase detector.
Rick
this for laying out antennas, etc. (ie surveying).
Rick Karlquist N6RK
Martyn Smith wrote:
Hi,
Apologies if this has been asked 1000 times before.
Is there any good software for reading the NMEA or Motorola binary code
out of a M12M.
I have winoncore, but wondered if there was anything a bit
amplifier to bring the signal back up to a high
level.
Now after considering all that, crystal clean up filters don't
sound like such a great idea unless you have no alternative.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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/data_sheets/AD9901.pdf
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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versions? One could easily imagine that the docking station did
nothing more sophisticated that emulating a USB dongle, but then again,
it does access the docking connector so there is some hope it connects
directly to the bus.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
Ed Breya wrote:
I've got to make a very clean 10.0594... MHz VCXO for a redo of one
of my old circuits. I previously used a 10 MHz ceramic resonator, which
Forget about it. This is well beyond even the lunatic fringe of pulling.
Rick
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at that frequency. There a lots of one chip synthesizers
that could generate that frequency as I'm sure you know.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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with the crystal. The
nominal value of this inductor may be considerably less than the
calculated value, but there is always some value of inductor that works.
This was true even in the through hole era.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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it, and the drive level, and the tuning
of the output filter. In most cases, you should provide an
input filter as well.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
Adrian wrote:
Hello,
I'm forwarding the message below on behalf of Luciano, because there
appears to be a problem with the time-nusts list that does no longer
is that you display the number of
digits that are commensurate with the worst case accuracy of your
interpolator. Again, my colleague who designed the interpolator
did very high quality work. I am pleased to learn that our stuff
is better than the stuff from the company up the road.
Rick Karlquist
in helping Agilent customers, especially important
ones like NIST. Are you currently working with anyone in Agilent?
Rick Karlquist
Tom Knox wrote:
We are looking into using two N/E550XA/B Phase Noise systems and the
89410A to build a Cross Correlated measurement system.
I was wondering
was as lonely as the Maytag repairman. Nothing ever went wrong.
Compare this to the finicky 5061 frequency multiplier.
Filter software (at least what I have seen) doesn't do this
type of design.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
(5071A RF designer)
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brent evers wrote:
BTW - 3M Scotch rubber tape is regularly used in the offshore industry to
make waterproof connections to 6000m/10,000psi. I use it on any/all
outdoor signal (RF/Microwve antenna connectors, amphenol, etc) connectors
as well. I cover the rubber tape with a layer of
ewkeh...@aol.com wrote:
In some of my projects I like to use the MC10EL16. Does any one have an
opinion on it?
Bert Kehren
I have used the MC10X116 series of line receivers going back to the old
MC1000 family, which went out of production 35 years ago. The MC10EL16
should have been called
Volker Esper wrote:
I have been looking into low jitter triggers for sampling systems
recently and will probably end up using a discrete differential
amplifier driving ECL logic.
Why discrete?
ECL style circuits on IC's suffer from high noise in the current
source. If you go discrete, you
Jerome Peters wrote:
Is there a RF Mailing list that anybody would like recommend?
I am mostly interested in homebrew lower frequency (500KHz - 220MHz) range
http://www.50mhzandup.org/
Rick N6RK
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To
This is a low performance economy model. It will be OK
for non-critical work. Regarding failures: it will be
difficult to get this repaired if it breaks.
Rick
N6RK
Joseph Gray wrote:
Since the list members are familiar with lots of test equipment, I'd
like to ask what the folks here think
is verifying that performance.
The 10811 production engineers searched for a long time for
a low noise buffer amplifier and settled on the ANZAC AMC-123.
The data sheet refers to a patent that reads like
a construction article. You can make your own if you can find
an old 2N5109 transistor.
Rick Karlquist
.
This is a terrible design. The comparator will add considerable
jitter. What were they thinking?
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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Bruce Griffiths wrote:
Rick Karlquist wrote:
Bruce Griffiths wrote:
He's made similar comments before.
It actually isnt that difficult to achieve an isolation amplifier phase
noise floor below -170dBc/Hz if one is careful to use appropriate
parts,
design techniques, and the input signal
. It
is in no way a primary frequency standard regardless of that
or any other accomplishment.
Primary means that the clock will meet its spec without being
calibrated against a better clock. Secondary means that
calibration against a primary standard is necessary.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
of anyone who believes that.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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even though modified to run
with a FTS tube and Standard Frequency makes it a grate Frequency
Standard.
Bert Kehren
I never knew that. I stand corrected on the 5062C.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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if you move them from the ground
floor to upstairs.
The pendulum is also not primary because it's length has to be
calibrated. A cesium kit does not require any calibrated parts,
including the microwave cavity, which only has to be symmetrical.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
J. Forster wrote:
A REAL primary
shift, etc in Cs standards have all been addressed
and a small upper bound has been established.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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. The designers were well
aware of this. But phase noise floor isn't everything.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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the
board for that application. It is a lot more difficult than
most people think it is.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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right on the turnover point is moot.
In the E1938A, we had crystals that definitely had turnovers,
and set each one at a turnover. What a nightmare in production.
The 10811 paradigm looked really good by comparison.
You can now see how complicated it gets if you fool around with
a 10811.
Rick
This reminds me of something a power company engineer
once told me:
High frequency is 61 Hz. Low frequency is 59 Hz.
Brooke Clarke wrote:
Hi:
http://whitehorsestar.com/archive/story/time-passed-more-slowly-over-the-easter-holiday/
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
, this wouldn't make sense.
You can, of course, now get 12 bit digitizer PCI cards for your
PC.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
Jerome Peters wrote:
Just curious about peoples experiences/thoughts about the HP5183A Waveform
Recorder.
It's a 2 channel 12 bit digitizer with 512K word memory, 3MHz max sweep
Pete Lancashire wrote:
$17,800 the good days :-)
Did the user i/f to the HPIB ever get published ?
-pete
I'm not sure if it got published or was leaked to
certain customers. I vaguely remember having to document
it. I just remembered that the HPIB phy chip used
was made by TI and had a bug
sheet. No need at all to get
a 3048, etc.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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Walls paper?
Rick Karlquist N6RK
Mark J. Blair wrote:
On Aug 20, 2010, at 11:17 AM, Rick Karlquist wrote:
On the 10811 production line, they would use Anzac AMC-123 amplifiers
How does this amplifier look for this application?
http://minicircuits.com/pdfs/ZFL-500LN.pdf
If I understand
dk...@arcor.de wrote:
to drive a +17 dBm mixer, and then amplify the IF output with a low
noise
current amplifier like the Linear LT1028. You can easily homebrew
low noise _voltage_ ?
73, Gerhard dk4xp
Oh yes, low noise voltage. The noise current of the LT1028 is
actually quite high,
Mark J. Blair wrote:
On Aug 20, 2010, at 2:19 PM, Rick Karlquist wrote:
It is good that you asked this FAQ. Basically, what is magic
about the AMC-123 is that it has certifiably low phase noise,
guaranteed by design and characterization, although not specified
by Anzac. [...] Having a low
masers as flywheels.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
member 5071A design team
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calculus problem!)
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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Mike S wrote:
At 05:33 PM 7/19/2008, wje wrote...
Another thing, the 10811B in mine doesn't have a removable endplate,
it's soldered. This makes it a lot more difficult to adjust or
repair.
Still, I think it's a fine buy for the cost.
Well, yea. Maybe Rick Karlquist will pipe
with a PIC, it might not
be too hard. I'm an analog guy; I don't speak PIC. :-)
Rick Karlquist N6RK
Thanks,
Ed
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:33:07 -0400
From: wje [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Double ovened 10811-60158 on ebay
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency
the screw. I think that might be hermetic.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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much does the 10811 internal oven current vary vs ambient?
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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, and
electrolyse any water absorbed to oxygen and hydrogen gas
after it is sealed.
Vacuum tube sealing and evacuation works well.
cheers, Neville MIchie
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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A non sealed 10811 responds to humidity in a few minutes.
The speed is nearly limited by the rate of change achievable
in the environmental chamber.
Rick Ksrlquist N6RK
Tom Van Baak wrote:
It would seem to me that a perfectly hermetically sealed oscillator
is not a requirement for a typical
We didn't use the epoxy for encapsulation. We used to in place
of soldering to see if we could replace solder with epoxy. Nope.
Is polyimide or PTFE board less hygroscopic than FR-4? Anyway,
we didn't try that (too much trouble).
Rick Karlquist N6RK
Mike S wrote:
At 03:42 PM 7/20/2008
size for the DAC data.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
Murray Greenman wrote:
There is no easy way to divide directly from 10MHz to 32768Hz.
On my web site at www.qsl.net/zl1bpu/MICRO there are several signal
generator projects which would do the job of generating 32768Hz from
10MHz for you.
With any
A more practical offshoot of this concept is to subsample the
32 kHz oscillator at 128 Hz (ie a sampling phase detector) and use a slow
loop to tune the 32768 kHz oscillator. The biggest problem here is that
you have to have a tunable oscillator. Attempting to get around
this by injection
if possible. Make your 10 MHz
source differential by putting a transformer on the output.
Band pass filter your 10 MHz source with an LC filter.
I recommend Coilcraft Unicoils or Maxicoils.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
Bob Paddock wrote:
Can you point me to a Time-Nut grade Zero Crossing
circuit that I
comparators, you will
find them to be universally lousy. I will be happy to be proven
wrong if someone is aware of a good comparator. It's just that
I have never met I comparator I liked :-)
Rick Karlquist N6RK
Didier Juges wrote:
Rick,
Can you explain #2?
I understand ECL has more jitter, so I
measurement
circuit.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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to use a poorly designed circuit that
degrades the 1 s stability (or a really bad oven). And a crystal
of much lower Q or higher intrinisic phase noise might affect
phase noise. But in practice in the 10811, absent pathological
corner cases, what I originally said is accuracy AFAIK.
Rick Karlquist
field susceptibility should be low.
Line sidebands should be low.
Compare, for example, the HP5087, a so-so design, to the
output amplifier design in the 5071A cesium, as documented
in my FCS paper in 1992. Huge difference in specs. The
5071A has 120 dB isolation between outputs.
Rick Karlquist
I should have said the return loss should be high or good :-)
Bruce Griffiths wrote:
Rick Karlquist wrote:
Additional specs to consider:
The return loss should be low for 10 MHz and the first 8 harmonics.
The harmonic distortion should be low.
The isolation between outputs should be high
I'm unclear what you are trying to do.
Rick
steve heidmann wrote:
Hi Rick,
Is he available to help hot rod one with a SiGe oscillator transistor ?
Steve
--- On Thu, 9/4/08, Richard (Rick) Karlquist [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
From: Richard (Rick) Karlquist
standards don't jump.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I would be very pleased to know when (date and time) anybody
out there happened to record jumps in frequency of crystals.
I have stable (e-07) tuning forks which happen to jump too,
and I don't understand why, even having
Some of Len Cutler's engineers at HP attempted to build
an ensemble of nine 10811 oscillators. It was quite
non-trivial and I'm not sure they ever completed
the project. I doubt whether just letting 10811's
self synchronize would result in satisfactory performance.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
Predrag
Robert Atkinson wrote:
non-electronic application is in some (eg argon-ion) lasers.
on a side note some vacuum tubes (especially cold cathode types) contain
various radioactive materials.
Robert G8RPI.
Of interest to time nuts is that rubidium standards contain
two isotopes of Rb, one of
heat running up the leads and corrupting the thermistor.
Rick Karlquist, N6RK
RD engineer, HP Santa Clara Division 1979-1998
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Bruce Griffiths wrote:
One concern is:
How accurate does one' thermometer which one uses to calibrate the
thermistor bridge setpoint have to be?
Bruce
The thermistors HP used were quite accurate, so you didn't
need a thermometer. You just calculated the correct resistor
value for the
to watch out for is that the
lower order digits will bounce around. This is usually a symptom
of prescaler error, assuming that the source is stable.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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.
Therefore, even installing the genuine board may not work.
Of course, you can always build a prescaler in an external
box and feed it into the front panel connector intended for
low frequenices. You can use the math functions on the counter
to scale the display.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
subtracts the compensating diode voltage.
Simple, but effective.
It is also interesting to note that in 1987 I used the MB506 prescaler.
Here they have simply upgraded to the MB510. Not likely to be
any better on noisy sources.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
After 46 years at HP/Agilent, Dave Chu, the father of the 5370 series
has retired. It is nice to see Time Nuts keeping these wonderful
instruments going.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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to air, unlike tiny
SMT packages used now.
How much room is there above the chips? Many years ago I saw some neat
Probably not much extra room.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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. Some have temperature
proof measurement techniques that will work virtually until
something burns up, so you can get lulled into a false sense of
security just because the instrument meets spec.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
Member of 5071A design team, circa 1992.
Now, a suggestion for the 5370
or an instrument.
The tube says cesium device; nonradioactive.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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for the large capacitance we needed. We talked him into using
a really good aluminum one.
Rick Karlquist
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an active oscillator.
John WA4WDL
10,000 to one (thermal gain = 10,000) is very good. We
could not achieve that until we applied the techiques in
the following reference:
http://www.karlquist.com/oven.pdf
We eventually demonstated thermal gain of over a million.
Again, for just a crystal.
Rick
to be done by converting the
oscillator to mode B and then converting it back to mode C
afterwards.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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improvements.
The best insurance policy is to have an ensemble of 5071A's
with proper comparison facilities so that in the event one
of them goes rogue, it can be voted out by the other units.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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Maybe they checked the connector by replacing the whole
fiber optic cable with a new one, and while doing that
had the oh sh.. moment of realizing the length of the
old one was 20 meters different than it was supposed to be.
I think this sort of thing has happened to all of us
with significant
Jim Hickstein wrote:
What do people use these days for schematic capture (and just possibly PCB
worse, I prefer ANSI logic symbology over shovels-and-spades (or, really,
over
plain rectangles where you're expected to know what the part number
means).
I'll add another vote for Eagle. It is
Charles P. Steinmetz wrote:
I've been using LTspice for schematic capture and simulation at
home. Will the PCB CAD tools being discussed (Eagle, DesignSpark,
FreePCB, etc.) import netlists from LTspice? Or do folks prefer to
do the schematic capture in a CAD tool and export that netlist to
NeonJohn wrote:
I use professionally. It was the best that our small company could
afford. Here are some tips that will save you mucho grief.
1) This is the biggie. Make your own parts library. Then put any part
that you have to create in that library. As well, put a copy of any
.
With the 10811, the counter is quite good for measuring Allan deviation.
The most rigorous test I can run on it is to compare two 10811's.
The result seems to be commensurate with the 10811 noise, without
much contamination from the counter.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
Frank Stellmach wrote:
The 5370 interpolator obviously was well-respected for its high
linearity and low jitter, based upon the dual-vernier digital
interpolator, but other T.I. counters containing analogous
capacitor-integrators often suffer from non-linearities and higher jitter.
The
. In the 5071 CBT, there are proprietary manufacturing
techniques that reduce the random phase error to parts in
10^13 and the systematic phase error to parts in 10^14, or
so I have been told.
This cleverness is the kind of thing that gets noticed in Stockholm.
Rick Karlquist, N6RK
Attila Kinali
reproduce a 1 Hz square wave requires response down to .1 Hz
and preferrably .01 Hz, due to droop and phase shift distortion
issues). A short pulse will conveniently propagate though
the same sort of distribution amplifiers used for 10 MHz, 5 MHz,
100 kHz, etc.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
a happy light LED
that flashed 1 time per second, and sure enough this corrupted the
power supply and affected some applications. We added a command
to turn it off.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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I have a bound set of IRE/IEEE Proceedings from about 1920 to 1985.
If anyone wants them, they are free for the taking.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
J. Forster wrote:
Good luck.
About 20 years ago, I bought out the entire library of a local RD company
for $10, including well over 50' of 7' high
li...@lazygranch.com wrote:
Terman Library (Stanford) used let any schmuck use the computers in the
library. You could email the articles to yourself. Now it requires a
password.
BTW, the library in Terman hall is the Engineering Library
not the Terman Library. A common misconception.
Rick
Chris Albertson wrote:
The comparator will work but you need some positive feedback to create
hysteresis. The problem is the hysteresis cause the output square
wave to be not quite 50% duty cycle. But maybe you don't care if the
goal is to count cycles. or if you only look at (say)
age
lower, had been eliminated by years of manufacturing improvements.
The remaining processes were of the nature of quartz stress
relaxation that were very random.
Rick Karlquist
Don Latham wrote:
There are ways of generating models, such as ARIMA, using past behavior
and the models used
as temperature. There
I've never heard of this being done. Do you have a reference?
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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if that crystal would accidentally make a good thermometer.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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with the 10811. If it were important,
knowing how HP did things, the crystal package would be indexed
so that the orientation would not be up to the whim of the
assembler.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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There was never any documentation of the NGOComm
program, because of the proverbial lack of resources.
The author of the program trained a few people,
and they trained others. I used to know how to
use it, but it has been 10 years since I used
it.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
Richard W. Solomon wrote
got to exercise his perfectionist tendancies
on this one, without any supervision from the usual suspects.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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with a beat note of a few Hz as could be achieved by pulling
a standard crystal.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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in a fix to mitigate against
this in the 5071A CBT. AFAIK, orientation doesn't affect
Rb standards.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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the ADF4108 data sheet :-) The
phase detector frequency will be about 5 MHz.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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frequency will be about 6 MHz.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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