Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
To be fair, the scrapping of defective boards was a practice adopted by HP in the 90's and by Tektronix only after the Danaher steamroller took over. I was lucky to buy a set of defective boards from an ex-HP employee in Santa Rosa and spend weeks really learning how they work, modifying a 8560 tracking generator into a 8590 one, but in the end got not only a fully packed 8593E but education and hands-on training I couldn't get anywhere. Similarly, I got a nearly-operational prototype MSO4104 and some spare boards from pre-Danaher time from another ex-employee, and was able to just tweak the EEPROM to get it to work. Tektronix was near zero help - you can actually say they were below zero - one call mentioning I 'might buy' old prototypes resulted in legal threats. I agree with you, they'd be better off eBaying their scrap so hobbyists with small budgets but plenty of time could repair what was not economical to them. The amount of good will and testimonials to their quality from these people couldn't be created by any ad campaign or tons of free t-shirts and pens in shows... Jose -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of David Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 8:39 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI I have been leaning more toward Agilent and away from Tektronix for this very reason. On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 09:17:54 -0700, Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com wrote: I think that for many of us, we are both professional and hobbyist Time Nuts and companies that encourage the hobbyist will find it pays of when we make professional purchases. Agilent seems to be learning this lesson as they put more and more manuals for obsolete products on line. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 01:07:04 -0500 Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net wrote: Do you believe there may be a problem for those who are reverse-engineering, and posting on the open net, items which may be covered under these regulations? Not unless you live in the US. Then you are bound by the laws of your country. But then again, most of the stuff we deal with is not of clasified nature, it's just that the companies who work in the arms, military and defense business are paranoid. Checking each bit of information whether it would be export restricted or not would mean a lot more work than just to declare everything as classified. That in the long term they hurt themselves by this is an other issue and because it cannot be numberd in $$$ for this quaters budget, not of the concern of those who decide such policy. Attila Kinali -- Why does it take years to find the answers to the questions one should have asked long ago? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
I work for a defense contractor. We used to make certain commercial test equipment, some 40 year old stuff is still being used today and lots of it has been sold to China, Korea, Taiwan and others with full manuals and schematics. Nowadays, these same manuals and schematics (for the 40 year old stuff) have been reprinted with ITAR notices and I would go to jail if I sent someone a copy outside the USA without approval from the Contracts department. Such approval will not be granted unless we have a suitable export license or TAA for that material and documentation. We cannot even talk to our vendors in Canada about our requirements, we can only buy catalog products. Asking them to change the color of the paint would be a violation punishable with fines and possibly jail. It is not even funny. So, now, what were you asking FEI for? Didier KO4BB Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: John Ackermann N8UR j...@febo.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:34:40 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI One thing to keep in mind is that FEI is very largely a defense contractor, so their customers, marketing, and motivation are a bit different than the typical business-to-business model. John On 2/17/2012 10:02 AM, Bill Riches wrote: Good points made - no income for the company, However on the other side of the coin - look at Agilient having available all of the old HP manuals for download even though there is no income to them. I wonder if it was a requirement of them to supply HP manuals when they absorbed HP. I just purchased a new HP Pavilion laptop and was surprised to see that you can download a service manual from HP with part numbers and it has disassembly instructions - don't know of any other mfgs that do that. Of course HP computer company does not have any connection with the original HP - or do they... 73, Bill Riches, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lux Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:43 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI On 2/17/12 5:27 AM, paul swed wrote: The used market makes no difference to them. No revenue stream. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
Do you believe there may be a problem for those who are reverse-engineering, and posting on the open net, items which may be covered under these regulations? If you do, you may want to consider contacting them off-list and letting them know your concern. Peter On 2/18/2012 10:31 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote: I work for a defense contractor. We used to make certain commercial test equipment, some 40 year old stuff is still being used today and lots of it has been sold to China, Korea, Taiwan and others with full manuals and schematics. Nowadays, these same manuals and schematics (for the 40 year old stuff) have been reprinted with ITAR notices and I would go to jail if I sent someone a copy outside the USA without approval from the Contracts department. Such approval will not be granted unless we have a suitable export license or TAA for that material and documentation. We cannot even talk to our vendors in Canada about our requirements, we can only buy catalog products. Asking them to change the color of the paint would be a violation punishable with fines and possibly jail. It is not even funny. So, now, what were you asking FEI for? Didier KO4BB Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: John Ackermann N8URj...@febo.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:34:40 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI One thing to keep in mind is that FEI is very largely a defense contractor, so their customers, marketing, and motivation are a bit different than the typical business-to-business model. John On 2/17/2012 10:02 AM, Bill Riches wrote: Good points made - no income for the company, However on the other side of the coin - look at Agilient having available all of the old HP manuals for download even though there is no income to them. I wonder if it was a requirement of them to supply HP manuals when they absorbed HP. I just purchased a new HP Pavilion laptop and was surprised to see that you can download a service manual from HP with part numbers and it has disassembly instructions - don't know of any other mfgs that do that. Of course HP computer company does not have any connection with the original HP - or do they... 73, Bill Riches, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lux Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:43 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI On 2/17/12 5:27 AM, paul swed wrote: The used market makes no difference to them. No revenue stream. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
Or worse, they will start requiring their scrappers to use a drill press or punch to render the physics package unusable. I've seen this done locally by hard drive manufacturers- hundreds of pounds of working HDs destroyed on purpose on a regular basis. If they only scrap killed units, no one will want to reverse engineer them. -Dave - Original Message - From: Mike McCauley mi...@open.com.au To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:02:28 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI Hmmm, Seems they dont realise that their lack of cooperation will lead, not to protecting their product, but rather to the massive, public reverse engineering of it? On Friday, February 17, 2012 05:43:49 PM Gerald Molenkamp wrote: I have written to them on several occasions about 56 Sent via Gerald's iPad Begin forwarded message: From: Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net Date: 16 February 2012 10:58:10 AEDT To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Contact FEI Reply-To: n...@verizon.net, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com I haven't personally tried but others have reported they were somewhat less than cooperative. Peter On 2/15/2012 6:23 PM, Bill Riches wrote: Just curious, Has anyone on this list actually contacted FEI and enquired about a schematic or other info about our 5680 units? They are still being sold by them. 73, Bill Riches, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4811 - Release Date: 02/15/12 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Mike McCauley mi...@open.com.au Open System Consultants Pty. Ltd 9 Bulbul Place Currumbin Waters QLD 4223 Australia http://www.open.com.au Phone +61 7 5598-7474 Fax +61 7 5598-7070 Radiator: the most portable, flexible and configurable RADIUS server anywhere. SQL, proxy, DBM, files, LDAP, NIS+, password, NT, Emerald, Platypus, Freeside, TACACS+, PAM, external, Active Directory, EAP, TLS, TTLS, PEAP, TNC, WiMAX, RSA, Vasco, Yubikey, MOTP, HOTP, TOTP, DIAMETER etc. Full source on Unix, Windows, MacOSX, Solaris, VMS, NetWare etc. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
If the device is reverse engineered and the work made public domain, the device is likely to increase in value on the used market. I've seen this before when proprietary products are reversed. Suddenly they are transformed from black magic, in to something that a community of people may thoroughly discuss, modify, repair, and maintain. This makes a hot, usable device, for years to come. The last big reversing project I worked on dealt in the automotive sector, I made my work available in a rar'd collection of abstract html pages and documents within a directory that was easy to save and pass on. I also encouraged everyone who looked at the document to download it and pass it along. The system operators of the servers where the files were originally located were told to remove the documents due to vague claims of IP violations. The internet archive also removed my work as it was cited for the same IP violoations. So in addition to increasing the value of the device, reverse engineering also brings the very reversing documentation under fire. usenet is a good place to distribute such a document, and it's also a good idea to use several names so that any counter efforts are forced to find all the derivatives. Steve Or worse, they will start requiring their scrappers to use a drill press or punch to render the physics package unusable. I've seen this done locally by hard drive manufacturers- hundreds of pounds of working HDs destroyed on purpose on a regular basis. If they only scrap killed units, no one will want to reverse engineer them. -Dave - Original Message - From: Mike McCauley mi...@open.com.au To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:02:28 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI Hmmm, Seems they dont realise that their lack of cooperation will lead, not to protecting their product, but rather to the massive, public reverse engineering of it? On Friday, February 17, 2012 05:43:49 PM Gerald Molenkamp wrote: I have written to them on several occasions about 56 Sent via Gerald's iPad Begin forwarded message: From: Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net Date: 16 February 2012 10:58:10 AEDT To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Contact FEI Reply-To: n...@verizon.net, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com I haven't personally tried but others have reported they were somewhat less than cooperative. Peter On 2/15/2012 6:23 PM, Bill Riches wrote: Just curious, Has anyone on this list actually contacted FEI and enquired about a schematic or other info about our 5680 units? They are still being sold by them. 73, Bill Riches, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4811 - Release Date: 02/15/12 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
The used market makes no difference to them. No revenue stream. In fact I would say you are swatting at the behive. It would be wise to leave them alone since several have reached out and already had a poor experience. As someone else pointed out this is what gets manufactures to demand crushing or drilling holes etc. Further the very hard work being done by this group to understand these units can be at risk if FEI decides to really get cranky. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 3:57 AM, Steve iteratio...@gmail.com wrote: If the device is reverse engineered and the work made public domain, the device is likely to increase in value on the used market. I've seen this before when proprietary products are reversed. Suddenly they are transformed from black magic, in to something that a community of people may thoroughly discuss, modify, repair, and maintain. This makes a hot, usable device, for years to come. The last big reversing project I worked on dealt in the automotive sector, I made my work available in a rar'd collection of abstract html pages and documents within a directory that was easy to save and pass on. I also encouraged everyone who looked at the document to download it and pass it along. The system operators of the servers where the files were originally located were told to remove the documents due to vague claims of IP violations. The internet archive also removed my work as it was cited for the same IP violoations. So in addition to increasing the value of the device, reverse engineering also brings the very reversing documentation under fire. usenet is a good place to distribute such a document, and it's also a good idea to use several names so that any counter efforts are forced to find all the derivatives. Steve Or worse, they will start requiring their scrappers to use a drill press or punch to render the physics package unusable. I've seen this done locally by hard drive manufacturers- hundreds of pounds of working HDs destroyed on purpose on a regular basis. If they only scrap killed units, no one will want to reverse engineer them. -Dave - Original Message - From: Mike McCauley mi...@open.com.au To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:02:28 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI Hmmm, Seems they dont realise that their lack of cooperation will lead, not to protecting their product, but rather to the massive, public reverse engineering of it? On Friday, February 17, 2012 05:43:49 PM Gerald Molenkamp wrote: I have written to them on several occasions about 56 Sent via Gerald's iPad Begin forwarded message: From: Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net Date: 16 February 2012 10:58:10 AEDT To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Contact FEI Reply-To: n...@verizon.net, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com I haven't personally tried but others have reported they were somewhat less than cooperative. Peter On 2/15/2012 6:23 PM, Bill Riches wrote: Just curious, Has anyone on this list actually contacted FEI and enquired about a schematic or other info about our 5680 units? They are still being sold by them. 73, Bill Riches, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4811 - Release Date: 02/15/12 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
On 2/17/12 5:27 AM, paul swed wrote: The used market makes no difference to them. No revenue stream. In fact I would say you are swatting at the behive. It would be wise to leave them alone since several have reached out and already had a poor experience. As someone else pointed out this is what gets manufactures to demand crushing or drilling holes etc. Further the very hard work being done by this group to understand these units can be at risk if FEI decides to really get cranky. Regards Paul WB8TSL A lot of companies don't provide docs on request because it costs significant money to do so, and provides little bottom line return. Someone has to dig in the files for the old drawings, which are almost certainly marked proprietary (on general principle). Then, they have to through some sort of redaction/release process to make sure it's not dangerous, illegal, or unwise to release it. None of which contributes much to their bottom line, and more particularly, none of this helps the engineer stuck with it get his or her deliverables done on schedule and on budget. Net result is, unless you have a friend in the company who's willing to invest some time for free, it isn't going to happen, if it's not a standard policy. As Paul pointed out, this is probably not perceived as a revenue stream. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
Good points made - no income for the company, However on the other side of the coin - look at Agilient having available all of the old HP manuals for download even though there is no income to them. I wonder if it was a requirement of them to supply HP manuals when they absorbed HP. I just purchased a new HP Pavilion laptop and was surprised to see that you can download a service manual from HP with part numbers and it has disassembly instructions - don't know of any other mfgs that do that. Of course HP computer company does not have any connection with the original HP - or do they... 73, Bill Riches, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lux Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:43 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI On 2/17/12 5:27 AM, paul swed wrote: The used market makes no difference to them. No revenue stream. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
On 2/17/12 7:02 AM, Bill Riches wrote: Good points made - no income for the company, However on the other side of the coin - look at Agilient having available all of the old HP manuals for download even though there is no income to them. I wonder if it was a requirement of them to supply HP manuals when they absorbed HP. I just purchased a new HP Pavilion laptop and was surprised to see that you can download a service manual from HP with part numbers and it has disassembly instructions - don't know of any other mfgs that do that. Of course HP computer company does not have any connection with the original HP - or do they... I think you will find that there's no particular rhyme or reason to documents being available. Contractual obligations are probably way down the list of reasons. More, it's just a company habit (I won't go so far as to say culture). Aglient has such a huge installed base, and lots and lots of HP gear still being used. In their case, it probably saves them money to have it online, otherwise they'd have to have a whole department printing off copies, shipping them, etc. Companies that make components or assemblies (e.g. Wenzel) and who do a lot of custom work are less likely. Wenzel has all their catalog units online, but it would be impractical for them to just publish all the customs.. they'd have to do the export control review and proprietary review, and they're not a very big shop. If you happened to ask when they weren't very busy, they'd probably be more helpful than when they've got a big order they're trying to get out. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
I'm an EE manager and buy Agilent equipment whenever I can over other brands. This is strongly influenced by their obsolete equipment manual policy. On 02/17/12, Bill Richesbill.ric...@verizon.net wrote: Good points made - no income for the company, However on the other side of the coin - look at Agilient having available all of the old HP manuals for download even though there is no income to them. I wonder if it was a requirement of them to supply HP manuals when they absorbed HP. I just purchased a new HP Pavilion laptop and was surprised to see that you can download a service manual from HP with part numbers and it has disassembly instructions - don't know of any other mfgs that do that. Of course HP computer company does not have any connection with the original HP - or do they... 73, Bill Riches, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
I am not so sure they have a lot of influence on what happens to equipment once they sell it to an OEM (e.g., Motorola). The OEM then incorporates it into other equipment (cell systems) which are sold to cell service providers, which is then scrapped out and sold to scrap dealers. Realistically, I can't see one component supplier having the influence to cause the addition of costs all the way down the line to have to comply with this kind of demand, especially when the end user (the cell service providers) are in other countries such as China. And to impose this demand retroactively to sales? Fat chance; the cell service providers would just tell FEI they are welcome to bid on their scrap like everyone else. Peter On 02/17/12, paul swedpaulsw...@gmail.com wrote: The used market makes no difference to them. No revenue stream. In fact I would say you are swatting at the behive. It would be wise to leave them alone since several have reached out and already had a poor experience. As someone else pointed out this is what gets manufactures to demand crushing or drilling holes etc. Further the very hard work being done by this group to understand these units can be at risk if FEI decides to really get cranky. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 3:57 AM, Steve iteratio...@gmail.com wrote: If the device is reverse engineered and the work made public domain, the device is likely to increase in value on the used market. I've seen this before when proprietary products are reversed. Suddenly they are transformed from black magic, in to something that a community of people may thoroughly discuss, modify, repair, and maintain. This makes a hot, usable device, for years to come. The last big reversing project I worked on dealt in the automotive sector, I made my work available in a rar'd collection of abstract html pages and documents within a directory that was easy to save and pass on. I also encouraged everyone who looked at the document to download it and pass it along. The system operators of the servers where the files were originally located were told to remove the documents due to vague claims of IP violations. The internet archive also removed my work as it was cited for the same IP violoations. So in addition to increasing the value of the device, reverse engineering also brings the very reversing documentation under fire. usenet is a good place to distribute such a document, and it's also a good idea to use several names so that any counter efforts are forced to find all the derivatives. Steve Or worse, they will start requiring their scrappers to use a drill press or punch to render the physics package unusable. I've seen this done locally by hard drive manufacturers- hundreds of pounds of working HDs destroyed on purpose on a regular basis. If they only scrap killed units, no one will want to reverse engineer them. -Dave - Original Message - From: Mike McCauley mi...@open.com.au To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:02:28 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI Hmmm, Seems they dont realise that their lack of cooperation will lead, not to protecting their product, but rather to the massive, public reverse engineering of it? On Friday, February 17, 2012 05:43:49 PM Gerald Molenkamp wrote: I have written to them on several occasions about 56 Sent via Gerald's iPad Begin forwarded message: From: Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net Date: 16 February 2012 10:58:10 AEDT To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Contact FEI Reply-To: n...@verizon.net, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com I haven't personally tried but others have reported they were somewhat less than cooperative. Peter On 2/15/2012 6:23 PM, Bill Riches wrote: Just curious, Has anyone on this list actually contacted FEI and enquired about a schematic or other info about our 5680 units? They are still being sold by them. 73, Bill Riches, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4811 - Release Date: 02/15/12 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
One thing to keep in mind is that FEI is very largely a defense contractor, so their customers, marketing, and motivation are a bit different than the typical business-to-business model. John On 2/17/2012 10:02 AM, Bill Riches wrote: Good points made - no income for the company, However on the other side of the coin - look at Agilient having available all of the old HP manuals for download even though there is no income to them. I wonder if it was a requirement of them to supply HP manuals when they absorbed HP. I just purchased a new HP Pavilion laptop and was surprised to see that you can download a service manual from HP with part numbers and it has disassembly instructions - don't know of any other mfgs that do that. Of course HP computer company does not have any connection with the original HP - or do they... 73, Bill Riches, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lux Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:43 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI On 2/17/12 5:27 AM, paul swed wrote: The used market makes no difference to them. No revenue stream. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
I think that for many of us, we are both professional and hobbyist Time Nuts and companies that encourage the hobbyist will find it pays of when we make professional purchases. Agilent seems to be learning this lesson as they put more and more manuals for obsolete products on line. Thomas Knox From: mi...@open.com.au To: time-nuts@febo.com Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 17:02:28 +1000 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI Hmmm, Seems they dont realise that their lack of cooperation will lead, not to protecting their product, but rather to the massive, public reverse engineering of it? On Friday, February 17, 2012 05:43:49 PM Gerald Molenkamp wrote: I have written to them on several occasions about 56 Sent via Gerald's iPad Begin forwarded message: From: Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net Date: 16 February 2012 10:58:10 AEDT To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Contact FEI Reply-To: n...@verizon.net, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com I haven't personally tried but others have reported they were somewhat less than cooperative. Peter On 2/15/2012 6:23 PM, Bill Riches wrote: Just curious, Has anyone on this list actually contacted FEI and enquired about a schematic or other info about our 5680 units? They are still being sold by them. 73, Bill Riches, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4811 - Release Date: 02/15/12 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Mike McCauley mi...@open.com.au Open System Consultants Pty. Ltd 9 Bulbul Place Currumbin Waters QLD 4223 Australia http://www.open.com.au Phone +61 7 5598-7474 Fax +61 7 5598-7070 Radiator: the most portable, flexible and configurable RADIUS server anywhere. SQL, proxy, DBM, files, LDAP, NIS+, password, NT, Emerald, Platypus, Freeside, TACACS+, PAM, external, Active Directory, EAP, TLS, TTLS, PEAP, TNC, WiMAX, RSA, Vasco, Yubikey, MOTP, HOTP, TOTP, DIAMETER etc. Full source on Unix, Windows, MacOSX, Solaris, VMS, NetWare etc. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
I have been leaning more toward Agilent and away from Tektronix for this very reason. On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 09:17:54 -0700, Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com wrote: I think that for many of us, we are both professional and hobbyist Time Nuts and companies that encourage the hobbyist will find it pays of when we make professional purchases. Agilent seems to be learning this lesson as they put more and more manuals for obsolete products on line. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
Hi The closest the communications business got to this was back in the days when Motorola would buy back all the used gear. They then carted it all off to a crusher. Without something like that - it all will go to the scrap merchants and be parted out. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Peter Gottlieb Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 10:25 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI I am not so sure they have a lot of influence on what happens to equipment once they sell it to an OEM (e.g., Motorola). The OEM then incorporates it into other equipment (cell systems) which are sold to cell service providers, which is then scrapped out and sold to scrap dealers. Realistically, I can't see one component supplier having the influence to cause the addition of costs all the way down the line to have to comply with this kind of demand, especially when the end user (the cell service providers) are in other countries such as China. And to impose this demand retroactively to sales? Fat chance; the cell service providers would just tell FEI they are welcome to bid on their scrap like everyone else. Peter On 02/17/12, paul swedpaulsw...@gmail.com wrote: The used market makes no difference to them. No revenue stream. In fact I would say you are swatting at the behive. It would be wise to leave them alone since several have reached out and already had a poor experience. As someone else pointed out this is what gets manufactures to demand crushing or drilling holes etc. Further the very hard work being done by this group to understand these units can be at risk if FEI decides to really get cranky. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 3:57 AM, Steve iteratio...@gmail.com wrote: If the device is reverse engineered and the work made public domain, the device is likely to increase in value on the used market. I've seen this before when proprietary products are reversed. Suddenly they are transformed from black magic, in to something that a community of people may thoroughly discuss, modify, repair, and maintain. This makes a hot, usable device, for years to come. The last big reversing project I worked on dealt in the automotive sector, I made my work available in a rar'd collection of abstract html pages and documents within a directory that was easy to save and pass on. I also encouraged everyone who looked at the document to download it and pass it along. The system operators of the servers where the files were originally located were told to remove the documents due to vague claims of IP violations. The internet archive also removed my work as it was cited for the same IP violoations. So in addition to increasing the value of the device, reverse engineering also brings the very reversing documentation under fire. usenet is a good place to distribute such a document, and it's also a good idea to use several names so that any counter efforts are forced to find all the derivatives. Steve Or worse, they will start requiring their scrappers to use a drill press or punch to render the physics package unusable. I've seen this done locally by hard drive manufacturers- hundreds of pounds of working HDs destroyed on purpose on a regular basis. If they only scrap killed units, no one will want to reverse engineer them. -Dave - Original Message - From: Mike McCauley mi...@open.com.au To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:02:28 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI Hmmm, Seems they dont realise that their lack of cooperation will lead, not to protecting their product, but rather to the massive, public reverse engineering of it? On Friday, February 17, 2012 05:43:49 PM Gerald Molenkamp wrote: I have written to them on several occasions about 56 Sent via Gerald's iPad Begin forwarded message: From: Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net Date: 16 February 2012 10:58:10 AEDT To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Contact FEI Reply-To: n...@verizon.net, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com I haven't personally tried but others have reported they were somewhat less than cooperative. Peter On 2/15/2012 6:23 PM, Bill Riches wrote: Just curious, Has anyone on this list actually contacted FEI and enquired about a schematic or other info about our 5680 units? They are still being sold by them. 73, Bill Riches, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
I believe in HPs case a unique situation occurred on the old gear. That is there were and are people at agilent willing to take the time to preserve their history. After all its still pretty fantastic stuff even at 20, 30, and yes I have a piece in the 40-50 years old era. Generally amazingly well built. I do know that when test and measurement was HP their support was top notch both for me professionally and personally. It did effect what I chose to buy for the business. But on the personal side they always helped I was above board about why I was calling. Ahhh for the good ole days. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 12:22 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi The closest the communications business got to this was back in the days when Motorola would buy back all the used gear. They then carted it all off to a crusher. Without something like that - it all will go to the scrap merchants and be parted out. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Peter Gottlieb Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 10:25 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI I am not so sure they have a lot of influence on what happens to equipment once they sell it to an OEM (e.g., Motorola). The OEM then incorporates it into other equipment (cell systems) which are sold to cell service providers, which is then scrapped out and sold to scrap dealers. Realistically, I can't see one component supplier having the influence to cause the addition of costs all the way down the line to have to comply with this kind of demand, especially when the end user (the cell service providers) are in other countries such as China. And to impose this demand retroactively to sales? Fat chance; the cell service providers would just tell FEI they are welcome to bid on their scrap like everyone else. Peter On 02/17/12, paul swedpaulsw...@gmail.com wrote: The used market makes no difference to them. No revenue stream. In fact I would say you are swatting at the behive. It would be wise to leave them alone since several have reached out and already had a poor experience. As someone else pointed out this is what gets manufactures to demand crushing or drilling holes etc. Further the very hard work being done by this group to understand these units can be at risk if FEI decides to really get cranky. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 3:57 AM, Steve iteratio...@gmail.com wrote: If the device is reverse engineered and the work made public domain, the device is likely to increase in value on the used market. I've seen this before when proprietary products are reversed. Suddenly they are transformed from black magic, in to something that a community of people may thoroughly discuss, modify, repair, and maintain. This makes a hot, usable device, for years to come. The last big reversing project I worked on dealt in the automotive sector, I made my work available in a rar'd collection of abstract html pages and documents within a directory that was easy to save and pass on. I also encouraged everyone who looked at the document to download it and pass it along. The system operators of the servers where the files were originally located were told to remove the documents due to vague claims of IP violations. The internet archive also removed my work as it was cited for the same IP violoations. So in addition to increasing the value of the device, reverse engineering also brings the very reversing documentation under fire. usenet is a good place to distribute such a document, and it's also a good idea to use several names so that any counter efforts are forced to find all the derivatives. Steve Or worse, they will start requiring their scrappers to use a drill press or punch to render the physics package unusable. I've seen this done locally by hard drive manufacturers- hundreds of pounds of working HDs destroyed on purpose on a regular basis. If they only scrap killed units, no one will want to reverse engineer them. -Dave - Original Message - From: Mike McCauley mi...@open.com.au To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:02:28 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI Hmmm, Seems they dont realise that their lack of cooperation will lead, not to protecting their product, but rather to the massive, public reverse engineering of it? On Friday, February 17, 2012 05:43:49 PM Gerald Molenkamp wrote: I have written to them on several occasions about 56 Sent via Gerald's iPad Begin forwarded message: From: Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net Date: 16 February 2012 10:58:10 AEDT To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
And for the good older days, I have some General Radio equipment, especially precision variable capacitors, made in the late 1920's that I still use for calibration standards. Don paul swed I believe in HPs case a unique situation occurred on the old gear. That is there were and are people at agilent willing to take the time to preserve their history. After all its still pretty fantastic stuff even at 20, 30, and yes I have a piece in the 40-50 years old era. Generally amazingly well built. I do know that when test and measurement was HP their support was top notch both for me professionally and personally. It did effect what I chose to buy for the business. But on the personal side they always helped I was above board about why I was calling. Ahhh for the good ole days. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 12:22 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi The closest the communications business got to this was back in the days when Motorola would buy back all the used gear. They then carted it all off to a crusher. Without something like that - it all will go to the scrap merchants and be parted out. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Peter Gottlieb Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 10:25 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI I am not so sure they have a lot of influence on what happens to equipment once they sell it to an OEM (e.g., Motorola). The OEM then incorporates it into other equipment (cell systems) which are sold to cell service providers, which is then scrapped out and sold to scrap dealers. Realistically, I can't see one component supplier having the influence to cause the addition of costs all the way down the line to have to comply with this kind of demand, especially when the end user (the cell service providers) are in other countries such as China. And to impose this demand retroactively to sales? Fat chance; the cell service providers would just tell FEI they are welcome to bid on their scrap like everyone else. Peter On 02/17/12, paul swedpaulsw...@gmail.com wrote: The used market makes no difference to them. No revenue stream. In fact I would say you are swatting at the behive. It would be wise to leave them alone since several have reached out and already had a poor experience. As someone else pointed out this is what gets manufactures to demand crushing or drilling holes etc. Further the very hard work being done by this group to understand these units can be at risk if FEI decides to really get cranky. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 3:57 AM, Steve iteratio...@gmail.com wrote: If the device is reverse engineered and the work made public domain, the device is likely to increase in value on the used market. I've seen this before when proprietary products are reversed. Suddenly they are transformed from black magic, in to something that a community of people may thoroughly discuss, modify, repair, and maintain. This makes a hot, usable device, for years to come. The last big reversing project I worked on dealt in the automotive sector, I made my work available in a rar'd collection of abstract html pages and documents within a directory that was easy to save and pass on. I also encouraged everyone who looked at the document to download it and pass it along. The system operators of the servers where the files were originally located were told to remove the documents due to vague claims of IP violations. The internet archive also removed my work as it was cited for the same IP violoations. So in addition to increasing the value of the device, reverse engineering also brings the very reversing documentation under fire. usenet is a good place to distribute such a document, and it's also a good idea to use several names so that any counter efforts are forced to find all the derivatives. Steve Or worse, they will start requiring their scrappers to use a drill press or punch to render the physics package unusable. I've seen this done locally by hard drive manufacturers- hundreds of pounds of working HDs destroyed on purpose on a regular basis. If they only scrap killed units, no one will want to reverse engineer them. -Dave - Original Message - From: Mike McCauley mi...@open.com.au To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:02:28 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI Hmmm, Seems they dont realise that their lack of cooperation will lead, not to protecting their product, but rather to the massive, public reverse engineering of it? On Friday, February 17, 2012 05:43:49 PM Gerald Molenkamp wrote: I have written to them on several occasions about 56 Sent
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
Hmmm, Seems they dont realise that their lack of cooperation will lead, not to protecting their product, but rather to the massive, public reverse engineering of it? On Friday, February 17, 2012 05:43:49 PM Gerald Molenkamp wrote: I have written to them on several occasions about 56 Sent via Gerald's iPad Begin forwarded message: From: Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net Date: 16 February 2012 10:58:10 AEDT To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Contact FEI Reply-To: n...@verizon.net, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com I haven't personally tried but others have reported they were somewhat less than cooperative. Peter On 2/15/2012 6:23 PM, Bill Riches wrote: Just curious, Has anyone on this list actually contacted FEI and enquired about a schematic or other info about our 5680 units? They are still being sold by them. 73, Bill Riches, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4811 - Release Date: 02/15/12 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Mike McCauley mi...@open.com.au Open System Consultants Pty. Ltd 9 Bulbul Place Currumbin Waters QLD 4223 Australia http://www.open.com.au Phone +61 7 5598-7474 Fax +61 7 5598-7070 Radiator: the most portable, flexible and configurable RADIUS server anywhere. SQL, proxy, DBM, files, LDAP, NIS+, password, NT, Emerald, Platypus, Freeside, TACACS+, PAM, external, Active Directory, EAP, TLS, TTLS, PEAP, TNC, WiMAX, RSA, Vasco, Yubikey, MOTP, HOTP, TOTP, DIAMETER etc. Full source on Unix, Windows, MacOSX, Solaris, VMS, NetWare etc. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
