Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Charles Steinmetz]

Bob wrote:


Autodesk just bought Eagle. Things may change there in the future.


Oh, good!  So Eagle may become even harder to learn and use! ;-)

[Before anyone posts flaming replies, please note the smiley-face above. 
 I was an original user of AutoCAD starting back when it was still 
called Interact, which I believe gives me standing to poke fun at it. 
For the record, I have not used A/C in more than 25 years.]


Best regards,

Charles


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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Just to mess things up a bit:

Autodesk just bought Eagle. Things may change there in the future. 

Bob

> On Aug 13, 2016, at 1:03 PM, Clint Jay  wrote:
> 
> I'll throw Designs Park into the mix,  it's a free program from RS
> components and I *think* it generates gerber files.
> 
> I've used it for a couple of boards and got a grasp of it on a quiet
> afternoon.
> 
> On 13 Aug 2016 16:05, "William H. Fite"  wrote:
> 
>> For me, the ideal solution is an eyeglass-mounted surgical loupe such as
>> this: http://www.surgitel.com/loupes/prismpro-line. There are several
>> manufacturers. Long working distance, superbly corrected optics, no bino
>> microscope or Mantis monstrosity cluttering up the bench. Not cheap but a
>> lifetime investment.
>> 
>> On Saturday, August 13, 2016, Adrian Godwin  wrote:
>> 
>>> I use a beautiful Wild M3Z that I got at a good price from a British
>>> Aerospace auction. It does have the disadvantage that there's a very
>> exact
>>> spot to place your eyes, but the image is superb. I typically start at
>> the
>>> bottom end (6.5 x 10 x 0.5) but often use the other zoom levels (up to
>> 40 x
>>> 10 x 0.5). It has a Volpi fibre optic ring light but LEDs may be a better
>>> solution nowadays.
>>> 
>>> I also have an illuminated magnifying lamp - I like the ones made by Lux.
>>> 
>>> I've considered a video microscope for the times when a large screen
>> would
>>> be desirable but computer and tablet ones are said to have a bit of lag
>>> that make precise movements difficult. Direct video without a computer is
>>> probably better.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 2:14 PM, Bob Camp >
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 Hi
 
 You can get a pretty good microscope new for about $1,000. Getting them
 used is a hit or
 miss process. A lot of this stuff actually works very well when in good
 condition with all the
 parts (The Mantis is one example). Without all the parts they don’t
>> work
 or work poorly.
 
 For most of what you do, there is no need for anything fancy. There is
>> a
 Mantis in full working
 condition at work. It never gets used. Magnifier lights get used a lot.
 Low magnification
 microscopes with really good halogen / fiber optic ring lights seem to
>> be
 the most
 popular option.
 
 Bob
 
 
> On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:06 PM, Steve >> > wrote:
> 
> Can anyone compare the stereo microscope to a camera/monitor for use
 with SMT? I have a cheap stereo microscope that I would like to replace
 with either a much better stereo microscope or a camera/monitor. Is
>>> there a
 marked advantage(s) of one versus the other?  I have no "floaters" to
 contend with.
> 
> Steve, K8JQ
> 
> On 8/11/2016 4:06 PM, Chuck Harris wrote:
>> Lots of good suggestions have already been made, but for
>> me, a boom style stereo microscope, with a distance between
>> the objective, and the focal point of at least 3 inches works
>> fairly well...
>> 
>> One other thing that may force your decision, if you are
>> older, your eyes will likely have lots of "floaters", which
>> are debris that floats around in your eyeballs.  This debris
>> floats in and out of the center of your field of view, and
>> looks like a bunch of translucent worms, or shadows.
>> 
>> Your brain, the magnificent organ that it is, tries to compensate
>> for your eye's degradation, and as long as your eyes can move
>> about in your field of view, it effectively removes the floaters
>> from the scenes you are viewing.
>> 
>> However, if you use a stereo microscope, your eye position
>> is fixed by the very limited amounts of off axis motion
>> that will allow a through optical channel.  This lack of off
>> axis motion will emphasize your floaters in a great way, and you
>> will see *every* *single* *one*, clearly, as if it were something
>> you really wanted to view.  Some times, the floaters will cover
>> the exact thing you need to see clearly, and you will have to
>> move it off axis by moving it on the microscope stage.
>> 
>> The only answer to this problem, is to either have perfect eyes,
>> or to use a microscope where you are looking at a screen, rather
>> than through a pair of oculars.  This way, your eyes can dart
>> around, and inspect what they need to see clearly, and the
>> floaters will be ignored by your brain.
>> 
>> As far as I know, there is only one optical microscope built this
>> way, and it is the very expensive Mantis.
>> 
>> Because of the great expense of flat screen optical microscopes,
>> most modern SMD viewing equipment is going to the trivially cheap
>> method of using a CCD/CMOS color video camera and an LCD screen.
>> 

Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Clint Jay]

I'll throw Designs Park into the mix,  it's a free program from RS
components and I *think* it generates gerber files.

I've used it for a couple of boards and got a grasp of it on a quiet
afternoon.

On 13 Aug 2016 16:05, "William H. Fite"  wrote:

> For me, the ideal solution is an eyeglass-mounted surgical loupe such as
> this: http://www.surgitel.com/loupes/prismpro-line. There are several
> manufacturers. Long working distance, superbly corrected optics, no bino
> microscope or Mantis monstrosity cluttering up the bench. Not cheap but a
> lifetime investment.
>
> On Saturday, August 13, 2016, Adrian Godwin  wrote:
>
> > I use a beautiful Wild M3Z that I got at a good price from a British
> > Aerospace auction. It does have the disadvantage that there's a very
> exact
> > spot to place your eyes, but the image is superb. I typically start at
> the
> > bottom end (6.5 x 10 x 0.5) but often use the other zoom levels (up to
> 40 x
> > 10 x 0.5). It has a Volpi fibre optic ring light but LEDs may be a better
> > solution nowadays.
> >
> > I also have an illuminated magnifying lamp - I like the ones made by Lux.
> >
> > I've considered a video microscope for the times when a large screen
> would
> > be desirable but computer and tablet ones are said to have a bit of lag
> > that make precise movements difficult. Direct video without a computer is
> > probably better.
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 2:14 PM, Bob Camp >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > You can get a pretty good microscope new for about $1,000. Getting them
> > > used is a hit or
> > > miss process. A lot of this stuff actually works very well when in good
> > > condition with all the
> > > parts (The Mantis is one example). Without all the parts they don’t
> work
> > > or work poorly.
> > >
> > > For most of what you do, there is no need for anything fancy. There is
> a
> > > Mantis in full working
> > > condition at work. It never gets used. Magnifier lights get used a lot.
> > > Low magnification
> > > microscopes with really good halogen / fiber optic ring lights seem to
> be
> > > the most
> > > popular option.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:06 PM, Steve  > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Can anyone compare the stereo microscope to a camera/monitor for use
> > > with SMT? I have a cheap stereo microscope that I would like to replace
> > > with either a much better stereo microscope or a camera/monitor. Is
> > there a
> > > marked advantage(s) of one versus the other?  I have no "floaters" to
> > > contend with.
> > > >
> > > > Steve, K8JQ
> > > >
> > > > On 8/11/2016 4:06 PM, Chuck Harris wrote:
> > > >> Lots of good suggestions have already been made, but for
> > > >> me, a boom style stereo microscope, with a distance between
> > > >> the objective, and the focal point of at least 3 inches works
> > > >> fairly well...
> > > >>
> > > >> One other thing that may force your decision, if you are
> > > >> older, your eyes will likely have lots of "floaters", which
> > > >> are debris that floats around in your eyeballs.  This debris
> > > >> floats in and out of the center of your field of view, and
> > > >> looks like a bunch of translucent worms, or shadows.
> > > >>
> > > >> Your brain, the magnificent organ that it is, tries to compensate
> > > >> for your eye's degradation, and as long as your eyes can move
> > > >> about in your field of view, it effectively removes the floaters
> > > >> from the scenes you are viewing.
> > > >>
> > > >> However, if you use a stereo microscope, your eye position
> > > >> is fixed by the very limited amounts of off axis motion
> > > >> that will allow a through optical channel.  This lack of off
> > > >> axis motion will emphasize your floaters in a great way, and you
> > > >> will see *every* *single* *one*, clearly, as if it were something
> > > >> you really wanted to view.  Some times, the floaters will cover
> > > >> the exact thing you need to see clearly, and you will have to
> > > >> move it off axis by moving it on the microscope stage.
> > > >>
> > > >> The only answer to this problem, is to either have perfect eyes,
> > > >> or to use a microscope where you are looking at a screen, rather
> > > >> than through a pair of oculars.  This way, your eyes can dart
> > > >> around, and inspect what they need to see clearly, and the
> > > >> floaters will be ignored by your brain.
> > > >>
> > > >> As far as I know, there is only one optical microscope built this
> > > >> way, and it is the very expensive Mantis.
> > > >>
> > > >> Because of the great expense of flat screen optical microscopes,
> > > >> most modern SMD viewing equipment is going to the trivially cheap
> > > >> method of using a CCD/CMOS color video camera and an LCD screen.
> > > >>
> > > >> You can do a lot with a cheap USB camera mounted to a boom, a fiber
> > > >> optic light source, or a ring light, 

Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Chris Albertson]

I've been studying machine vision for years and now finally the prices are
such that I can build my own systems.   There are lots of ways to construct
3D models of the environment and I think humans use many of these.

1) Using binocular vision.  We humans have two eyes set some distance
apart, we all know how this works.   But in humans and machines the limit,
the maximum distance is determined by visual acuity.  What is the angular
resolution of the eye?  Except in one tiny spot not very good  Binocular
vision only work for close up.

2) Motion through space, observation of parallax.

3) observation of perspective.  Perspective is the ratio of apparent size
of for grand and background object, requires familiarity with these
objects.   Try it close one eye and move your thumb first in front of your
eye then at arm's length.  The size of the thumb changes but nothing else
does

4) stereo vision by moving the head.  It is easy for robot machine to take
a stereo pair of images using just one camera.  It takes one then moves the
camera and tales another.   Unlike the fixed human baseline the robot can
move the camera as far as it likes.Some birds do this to make up for
their short natural baseline.  I think some humans try to do this too.

I'm sure there is more, especially with machines (like using more than two
cameras, sometimes a half dozen cameras or even active 3D scanners as in
LIDAR)

I think we humans might use all of the above techniques, all at once.
Notice that we can determine the 3D position of objects on the screen of a
TV set or movie screen or even in still photographs.  Not as well as with a
live view but we do manage well enough to most not be confused.

On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 2:33 AM, Ian Stirling  wrote:

> On 08/13/2016 12:39 AM, Chuck Harris wrote:
> > A fairly large part of the population gets along just
> > fine with mono vision.  Many choose it specifically
> > by getting contact lenses where one lens is near, and
> > one is far, or getting laser eye surgery to affect that
> > condition.
> >
> > That said, I do very well with stereo vision, but can
> > work satisfactorily well with a mono vision camera.
> >
> > The brain is adapted to use both stereo vision, and
> > perspective for determining distance.
>
>   Chuck, you hit the nail on the head.
>
>   My sister, 11 months younger than I am, she was born in December 1956,
> had and still has a strange path with her vision. When she was 4,
> the eye surgeons "corrected" her turned in eye, what we called a squint.
> She is still going through life with whatever this is. When she was 32,
> she had a baby son. Later, when my nephew was 12, he was scared of the
> optical machine that the doctor was proposing to use for testing his
> eyes. She volunteered and looked into it herself.
>   What she told the doctor was astonishing.
> She had no 3D vision in the sense of what most people think it is.
> For over 50 years, her brain has been constructing her 3D world, as she
> walks, as she looks around, and as she drives her car. Her 3D vision
> is based on parallax of movement. Is that inferior, as good as, or
> better than two eyes that form the 3D norm? Is your color green the
> same as mine?
>
>   Soldering SMD parts, I use my OptiVISOR x10,
> a bit close but I can hold my breath.
>
> Ian, G4ICV,AB2GR
> --
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[William H. Fite]

For me, the ideal solution is an eyeglass-mounted surgical loupe such as
this: http://www.surgitel.com/loupes/prismpro-line. There are several
manufacturers. Long working distance, superbly corrected optics, no bino
microscope or Mantis monstrosity cluttering up the bench. Not cheap but a
lifetime investment.

On Saturday, August 13, 2016, Adrian Godwin  wrote:

> I use a beautiful Wild M3Z that I got at a good price from a British
> Aerospace auction. It does have the disadvantage that there's a very exact
> spot to place your eyes, but the image is superb. I typically start at the
> bottom end (6.5 x 10 x 0.5) but often use the other zoom levels (up to 40 x
> 10 x 0.5). It has a Volpi fibre optic ring light but LEDs may be a better
> solution nowadays.
>
> I also have an illuminated magnifying lamp - I like the ones made by Lux.
>
> I've considered a video microscope for the times when a large screen would
> be desirable but computer and tablet ones are said to have a bit of lag
> that make precise movements difficult. Direct video without a computer is
> probably better.
>
> On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 2:14 PM, Bob Camp >
> wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > You can get a pretty good microscope new for about $1,000. Getting them
> > used is a hit or
> > miss process. A lot of this stuff actually works very well when in good
> > condition with all the
> > parts (The Mantis is one example). Without all the parts they don’t work
> > or work poorly.
> >
> > For most of what you do, there is no need for anything fancy. There is a
> > Mantis in full working
> > condition at work. It never gets used. Magnifier lights get used a lot.
> > Low magnification
> > microscopes with really good halogen / fiber optic ring lights seem to be
> > the most
> > popular option.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> > > On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:06 PM, Steve  > wrote:
> > >
> > > Can anyone compare the stereo microscope to a camera/monitor for use
> > with SMT? I have a cheap stereo microscope that I would like to replace
> > with either a much better stereo microscope or a camera/monitor. Is
> there a
> > marked advantage(s) of one versus the other?  I have no "floaters" to
> > contend with.
> > >
> > > Steve, K8JQ
> > >
> > > On 8/11/2016 4:06 PM, Chuck Harris wrote:
> > >> Lots of good suggestions have already been made, but for
> > >> me, a boom style stereo microscope, with a distance between
> > >> the objective, and the focal point of at least 3 inches works
> > >> fairly well...
> > >>
> > >> One other thing that may force your decision, if you are
> > >> older, your eyes will likely have lots of "floaters", which
> > >> are debris that floats around in your eyeballs.  This debris
> > >> floats in and out of the center of your field of view, and
> > >> looks like a bunch of translucent worms, or shadows.
> > >>
> > >> Your brain, the magnificent organ that it is, tries to compensate
> > >> for your eye's degradation, and as long as your eyes can move
> > >> about in your field of view, it effectively removes the floaters
> > >> from the scenes you are viewing.
> > >>
> > >> However, if you use a stereo microscope, your eye position
> > >> is fixed by the very limited amounts of off axis motion
> > >> that will allow a through optical channel.  This lack of off
> > >> axis motion will emphasize your floaters in a great way, and you
> > >> will see *every* *single* *one*, clearly, as if it were something
> > >> you really wanted to view.  Some times, the floaters will cover
> > >> the exact thing you need to see clearly, and you will have to
> > >> move it off axis by moving it on the microscope stage.
> > >>
> > >> The only answer to this problem, is to either have perfect eyes,
> > >> or to use a microscope where you are looking at a screen, rather
> > >> than through a pair of oculars.  This way, your eyes can dart
> > >> around, and inspect what they need to see clearly, and the
> > >> floaters will be ignored by your brain.
> > >>
> > >> As far as I know, there is only one optical microscope built this
> > >> way, and it is the very expensive Mantis.
> > >>
> > >> Because of the great expense of flat screen optical microscopes,
> > >> most modern SMD viewing equipment is going to the trivially cheap
> > >> method of using a CCD/CMOS color video camera and an LCD screen.
> > >>
> > >> You can do a lot with a cheap USB camera mounted to a boom, a fiber
> > >> optic light source, or a ring light, and a laptop computer to
> > >> display the image.
> > >>
> > >> -Chuck Harris
> > >>
> > >> Bob Albert via time-nuts wrote:
> > >>> What are the important parameters regarding purchase of a stereo
> > microscope?  I
> > >>> see some on ebay for around $50; are those good? Bob
> > >> ___
> > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com 
> > >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> > 

Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Didier Juges]

I did not know Futurlec accepted ExpressPCB files, so I checked.

The equivalent to ExpressPCB mini board pro service (2 sided, solder mask
and silk screen, 3 pieces, same size) is $86 + shipping and one week to
shipment. ExpressPCB is $75 in 3-4 days in your mailbox including FedEx
(they do offer cheaper/slower delivery methods).

I did not check other dimensions/quantities.


On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 2:14 AM, wb6bnq  wrote:

> Hello Orin,
>
> Like I mentioned before http://www.futurlec.com/PCBService.shtml will
> accept the ExpressPCB program file and their prices are very reasonable
> compared to having the work done through ExpressPCB themselves.
>
> BillWB6BNQ
>
> Orin Eman wrote:
>
> On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 7:25 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Hi Chris:
>>>
>>> ExpressPCB has very easy to use free software for schematic capture
>>> (later
>>> used to check the board wiring) and software for board layout including
>>> making custom components if their library of stock components does not
>>> have
>>> what you need.  The output file format is proprietary, which makes it
>>> interesting that Far Circuits can read it.
>>>
>>> I just have not wanted to go through learning curve for Gerber files and
>>> all the associated stuff (maybe drilling, silk screen, solder mask) which
>>> is very easy to do with ExpressPCB.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I did my first 'CAD' PCB with EasyTrax... a DOS program.  Must have been
>> about 1998 as that's the copyright date I put on the board.
>>
>> Believe me, getting any of the current programs to produce gerber files is
>> trivial compared to using EasyTrax and making it produce gerber files.  In
>> fact, I usually us itead.cc for small boards and they provide the script
>> to
>> produce gerber files from Eagle, which is what I currently use.  I've also
>> used OSH Park and you can simply send an Eagle board file to them; just as
>> easy as using ExpressPCB without the expensive tie-in.
>>
>> I must admit ExpressPCB leaves me with a sour taste - many published
>> projects seem to use them as  I suppose the author liked the free
>> software.  But then everyone that uses the ExpressPCB files that the
>> author
>> supplies pays the ExpressPCB premium.  $300 in one case and the boards
>> weren't even flat!
>>
>> Orin.
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Adrian Godwin]

I use a beautiful Wild M3Z that I got at a good price from a British
Aerospace auction. It does have the disadvantage that there's a very exact
spot to place your eyes, but the image is superb. I typically start at the
bottom end (6.5 x 10 x 0.5) but often use the other zoom levels (up to 40 x
10 x 0.5). It has a Volpi fibre optic ring light but LEDs may be a better
solution nowadays.

I also have an illuminated magnifying lamp - I like the ones made by Lux.

I've considered a video microscope for the times when a large screen would
be desirable but computer and tablet ones are said to have a bit of lag
that make precise movements difficult. Direct video without a computer is
probably better.

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 2:14 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> You can get a pretty good microscope new for about $1,000. Getting them
> used is a hit or
> miss process. A lot of this stuff actually works very well when in good
> condition with all the
> parts (The Mantis is one example). Without all the parts they don’t work
> or work poorly.
>
> For most of what you do, there is no need for anything fancy. There is a
> Mantis in full working
> condition at work. It never gets used. Magnifier lights get used a lot.
> Low magnification
> microscopes with really good halogen / fiber optic ring lights seem to be
> the most
> popular option.
>
> Bob
>
>
> > On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:06 PM, Steve  wrote:
> >
> > Can anyone compare the stereo microscope to a camera/monitor for use
> with SMT? I have a cheap stereo microscope that I would like to replace
> with either a much better stereo microscope or a camera/monitor. Is there a
> marked advantage(s) of one versus the other?  I have no "floaters" to
> contend with.
> >
> > Steve, K8JQ
> >
> > On 8/11/2016 4:06 PM, Chuck Harris wrote:
> >> Lots of good suggestions have already been made, but for
> >> me, a boom style stereo microscope, with a distance between
> >> the objective, and the focal point of at least 3 inches works
> >> fairly well...
> >>
> >> One other thing that may force your decision, if you are
> >> older, your eyes will likely have lots of "floaters", which
> >> are debris that floats around in your eyeballs.  This debris
> >> floats in and out of the center of your field of view, and
> >> looks like a bunch of translucent worms, or shadows.
> >>
> >> Your brain, the magnificent organ that it is, tries to compensate
> >> for your eye's degradation, and as long as your eyes can move
> >> about in your field of view, it effectively removes the floaters
> >> from the scenes you are viewing.
> >>
> >> However, if you use a stereo microscope, your eye position
> >> is fixed by the very limited amounts of off axis motion
> >> that will allow a through optical channel.  This lack of off
> >> axis motion will emphasize your floaters in a great way, and you
> >> will see *every* *single* *one*, clearly, as if it were something
> >> you really wanted to view.  Some times, the floaters will cover
> >> the exact thing you need to see clearly, and you will have to
> >> move it off axis by moving it on the microscope stage.
> >>
> >> The only answer to this problem, is to either have perfect eyes,
> >> or to use a microscope where you are looking at a screen, rather
> >> than through a pair of oculars.  This way, your eyes can dart
> >> around, and inspect what they need to see clearly, and the
> >> floaters will be ignored by your brain.
> >>
> >> As far as I know, there is only one optical microscope built this
> >> way, and it is the very expensive Mantis.
> >>
> >> Because of the great expense of flat screen optical microscopes,
> >> most modern SMD viewing equipment is going to the trivially cheap
> >> method of using a CCD/CMOS color video camera and an LCD screen.
> >>
> >> You can do a lot with a cheap USB camera mounted to a boom, a fiber
> >> optic light source, or a ring light, and a laptop computer to
> >> display the image.
> >>
> >> -Chuck Harris
> >>
> >> Bob Albert via time-nuts wrote:
> >>> What are the important parameters regarding purchase of a stereo
> microscope?  I
> >>> see some on ebay for around $50; are those good? Bob
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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To unsubscribe, go to 

Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[wb6bnq]

Hello Orin,

Like I mentioned before http://www.futurlec.com/PCBService.shtml will 
accept the ExpressPCB program file and their prices are very reasonable 
compared to having the work done through ExpressPCB themselves.


BillWB6BNQ

Orin Eman wrote:


On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 7:25 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:

 


Hi Chris:

ExpressPCB has very easy to use free software for schematic capture (later
used to check the board wiring) and software for board layout including
making custom components if their library of stock components does not have
what you need.  The output file format is proprietary, which makes it
interesting that Far Circuits can read it.

I just have not wanted to go through learning curve for Gerber files and
all the associated stuff (maybe drilling, silk screen, solder mask) which
is very easy to do with ExpressPCB.
   





I did my first 'CAD' PCB with EasyTrax... a DOS program.  Must have been
about 1998 as that's the copyright date I put on the board.

Believe me, getting any of the current programs to produce gerber files is
trivial compared to using EasyTrax and making it produce gerber files.  In
fact, I usually us itead.cc for small boards and they provide the script to
produce gerber files from Eagle, which is what I currently use.  I've also
used OSH Park and you can simply send an Eagle board file to them; just as
easy as using ExpressPCB without the expensive tie-in.

I must admit ExpressPCB leaves me with a sour taste - many published
projects seem to use them as  I suppose the author liked the free
software.  But then everyone that uses the ExpressPCB files that the author
supplies pays the ExpressPCB premium.  $300 in one case and the boards
weren't even flat!

Orin.
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Ian Stirling]

On 08/13/2016 12:39 AM, Chuck Harris wrote:
> A fairly large part of the population gets along just
> fine with mono vision.  Many choose it specifically
> by getting contact lenses where one lens is near, and
> one is far, or getting laser eye surgery to affect that
> condition.
> 
> That said, I do very well with stereo vision, but can
> work satisfactorily well with a mono vision camera.
> 
> The brain is adapted to use both stereo vision, and
> perspective for determining distance.

  Chuck, you hit the nail on the head.

  My sister, 11 months younger than I am, she was born in December 1956,
had and still has a strange path with her vision. When she was 4,
the eye surgeons "corrected" her turned in eye, what we called a squint.
She is still going through life with whatever this is. When she was 32,
she had a baby son. Later, when my nephew was 12, he was scared of the
optical machine that the doctor was proposing to use for testing his
eyes. She volunteered and looked into it herself.
  What she told the doctor was astonishing.
She had no 3D vision in the sense of what most people think it is.
For over 50 years, her brain has been constructing her 3D world, as she
walks, as she looks around, and as she drives her car. Her 3D vision
is based on parallax of movement. Is that inferior, as good as, or
better than two eyes that form the 3D norm? Is your color green the
same as mine?

  Soldering SMD parts, I use my OptiVISOR x10,
a bit close but I can hold my breath.

Ian, G4ICV,AB2GR
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 
, Chris 
Albertson writes:

>1) Eagle cad 
>
>2) Kicad 

I switched from Eagle to Kicad, and have used Seeed's PCB service
with good results.

Kicad got a major boost when CERN threw their weight behind it, and
while Eagle is still slightly more polished in many ways, kicad is
clearly where the party is.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Chris Albertson]

If you are looking for a free PCB layout program there are a few around.

1) Eagle cad https://cadsoft.io This one is the most popular by far.   The
free version is some limits, only two layers and only up to about 4 x 3
inch PCBs.  Yes it can output Gerber files.  For larger size PCBs and more
layers you need to buy a license

2) Kicad http://kicad-pcb.org is completely free,  No limits on size of
number of layers.  This is used in a lot of projects

3) gEDA tries to do everything.  You enter the schematic and that can go
into simulation or PCB layout http://wiki.geda-project.org

There are more.  The Wikipedia lists about a dozen of them
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EDA_software


On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 9:28 AM, Tom Miller <tmiller11...@verizon.net>
wrote:
> Bill, that is a great deal for $99 for the full package. Very easy to use
> and learn.
>
> Thanks for the link.
>
> Regards,
> Tom
> WA3PZI
>
>
>
> - Original Message - From: "wb6bnq" <wb6...@cox.net>
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> <time-nuts@febo.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 10:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.
>
>
>> Hi Didier,
>>
>> I use ExpressPCB as well, but I send the ExpressPCB file to a company
>> called Futurlec
>> ( http://www.futurlec.com/PCBService.shtml ).  They have reasonable
>> prices.  Because it is overseas it takes about three weeks to get the
>> product back.  So far I have been very impressed with the product I
>> recieved.  I have even had notches done in the four corners to fit a
plastic
>> box that came out very well.
>>
>> Also, There is a person who started to write his own version  of layout
>> program based off of the ExpressPCB program called  "Copper Connection."
(
>> http://www.robotroom.com/CopperConnection/index.html )  It is a bit more
>> involved than the ExpressPCB program and does have GERBER files as a
>> selection.  However he charges for the program but it seems the prices
are
>> reasonable ( http://www.robotroom.com/CopperConnection/Buy.html ).
>>
>> 73BillWB6BNQ
>>
>>
>> Didier Juges wrote:
>>
>>> The way ExpressPCB works is that their free software produces boards in
a
>>> proprietary format, and you have to pay to convert their design file to
>>> Gerber.
>>>
>>> Your mileage may vary but I found the combination of design tools
>>> learning curve, board quality and quick service to be worthwhile to me.
>>>
>>> I have tried Eagle twice and never could manage to build the models I
>>> needed. It may have been an issue of not finding the right tutorial but
I
>>> have produced several ExpressPCB designs in less time than I have tried
>>> (unsuccessfully) to produce a single schematic in Eagle, let alone a
PWB.
>>> Since it is a hobby that has become a business, time matters to me,
design
>>> time and delivery.
>>>
>>> At that point, the cost of the Gerber becomes somewhat irrelevant.
>>>
>>> Note that you can make boards of any size in ExpressPCB.
>>>
>>> I am not advocating it is the best solution for everyone, I personally
>>> would like to be proficient with Eagle, but Express PCB works for me.
>>>
>>> Didier KO4BB
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On August 11, 2016 10:45:45 PM CDT, Chris Albertson
>>> <albertson.ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This seems totally backwards.  Typically a Gerber file is something
>>>> you make yourself on your computer then send it in for a prototype.
>>>> Seems odd to buy them.
>>>>
>>>> I checked ExpressPCB prices and they are very high.  I can get PCBs
>>>> made quickly in the US for $3 per square inch, shipping included with
>>>> $9 minimum order.  And  you don't buy the Gerbers.
>>>>
>>>> I notice ExpressPCB offers free software.  But it is totally
>>>> non-standard and you can't use it for anything other then for their
>>>> service.  Most people needing free PCB software use Eagle, some use
>>>> Kicad or some others.  But Eagle seems to be kind of a universal
>>>> standard.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 8:55 AM, Didier Juges <shali...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I concur. I have been using ExpressPCB extensively over the last 2
>>>>>
>>>> years
>>>>
>&g

Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Orin Eman]

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 7:25 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:

> Hi Chris:
>
> ExpressPCB has very easy to use free software for schematic capture (later
> used to check the board wiring) and software for board layout including
> making custom components if their library of stock components does not have
> what you need.  The output file format is proprietary, which makes it
> interesting that Far Circuits can read it.
>
> I just have not wanted to go through learning curve for Gerber files and
> all the associated stuff (maybe drilling, silk screen, solder mask) which
> is very easy to do with ExpressPCB.



I did my first 'CAD' PCB with EasyTrax... a DOS program.  Must have been
about 1998 as that's the copyright date I put on the board.

Believe me, getting any of the current programs to produce gerber files is
trivial compared to using EasyTrax and making it produce gerber files.  In
fact, I usually us itead.cc for small boards and they provide the script to
produce gerber files from Eagle, which is what I currently use.  I've also
used OSH Park and you can simply send an Eagle board file to them; just as
easy as using ExpressPCB without the expensive tie-in.

I must admit ExpressPCB leaves me with a sour taste - many published
projects seem to use them as  I suppose the author liked the free
software.  But then everyone that uses the ExpressPCB files that the author
supplies pays the ExpressPCB premium.  $300 in one case and the boards
weren't even flat!

Orin.
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Tim Tuck]

With all this discussion about PCB s/w I'm surprised no one's mentioned 
DipTrace.


http://www.diptrace.com/

It has Gerber, DXF, OrCad and other export forms, + it has 3D library's 
for popular components so you can see what your device is going to look 
like before you build it.


It works well.

regards

Tim

--
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Bob Albert via time-nuts]

I appreciate the advantage of stereo, which gives information as to how close 
the tools are to the work.  That could be important.  However, it's not 
necessary once you adapt to your tools.
Bob
 

On Friday, August 12, 2016 10:04 PM, Chuck Harris  
wrote:
 

 A fairly large part of the population gets along just
fine with mono vision.  Many choose it specifically
by getting contact lenses where one lens is near, and
one is far, or getting laser eye surgery to affect that
condition.

That said, I do very well with stereo vision, but can
work satisfactorily well with a mono vision camera.

The brain is adapted to use both stereo vision, and
perspective for determining distance.

-Chuck Harris



Brooke Clarke wrote:
> Hi Steve:
> 
> If you are going to be soldering then you NEED stereo vision, a monitor 
> screen will
> not work at all.  You need depth perception as well as magnification.  Think 
> of the
> microscope as part of a feedback loop that includes your eyes and muscles.  
> With a
> stereo microscope you can make much smaller hand movements which are required 
> when
> working with small pitch ICs.
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Steve:

If you are going to be soldering then you NEED stereo vision, a monitor screen will not work at all.  You need depth 
perception as well as magnification.  Think of the microscope as part of a feedback loop that includes your eyes and 
muscles.  With a stereo microscope you can make much smaller hand movements which are required when working with small 
pitch ICs.


--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

 Original Message 
Can anyone compare the stereo microscope to a camera/monitor for use with SMT? I have a cheap stereo microscope that I 
would like to replace with either a much better stereo microscope or a camera/monitor. Is there a marked advantage(s) 
of one versus the other?  I have no "floaters" to contend with.


Steve, K8JQ

On 8/11/2016 4:06 PM, Chuck Harris wrote:

Lots of good suggestions have already been made, but for
me, a boom style stereo microscope, with a distance between
the objective, and the focal point of at least 3 inches works
fairly well...

One other thing that may force your decision, if you are
older, your eyes will likely have lots of "floaters", which
are debris that floats around in your eyeballs.  This debris
floats in and out of the center of your field of view, and
looks like a bunch of translucent worms, or shadows.

Your brain, the magnificent organ that it is, tries to compensate
for your eye's degradation, and as long as your eyes can move
about in your field of view, it effectively removes the floaters
from the scenes you are viewing.

However, if you use a stereo microscope, your eye position
is fixed by the very limited amounts of off axis motion
that will allow a through optical channel.  This lack of off
axis motion will emphasize your floaters in a great way, and you
will see *every* *single* *one*, clearly, as if it were something
you really wanted to view.  Some times, the floaters will cover
the exact thing you need to see clearly, and you will have to
move it off axis by moving it on the microscope stage.

The only answer to this problem, is to either have perfect eyes,
or to use a microscope where you are looking at a screen, rather
than through a pair of oculars.  This way, your eyes can dart
around, and inspect what they need to see clearly, and the
floaters will be ignored by your brain.

As far as I know, there is only one optical microscope built this
way, and it is the very expensive Mantis.

Because of the great expense of flat screen optical microscopes,
most modern SMD viewing equipment is going to the trivially cheap
method of using a CCD/CMOS color video camera and an LCD screen.

You can do a lot with a cheap USB camera mounted to a boom, a fiber
optic light source, or a ring light, and a laptop computer to
display the image.

-Chuck Harris

Bob Albert via time-nuts wrote:

What are the important parameters regarding purchase of a stereo microscope?  I
see some on ebay for around $50; are those good? Bob

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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Chris:

ExpressPCB has very easy to use free software for schematic capture (later used to check the board wiring) and software 
for board layout including making custom components if their library of stock components does not have what you need.  
The output file format is proprietary, which makes it interesting that Far Circuits can read it.


I just have not wanted to go through learning curve for Gerber files and all the associated stuff (maybe drilling, silk 
screen, solder mask) which is very easy to do with ExpressPCB.
When you start buying many circuits per board and a number of boards from the the price gets a lot lower.  When I try 
Far Circuits I expect it to drop by a small integer (1/2, 1/3 . .  1/4?)..\


--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

 Original Message 

This seems totally backwards.  Typically a Gerber file is something
you make yourself on your computer then send it in for a prototype.
Seems odd to buy them.

I checked ExpressPCB prices and they are very high.  I can get PCBs
made quickly in the US for $3 per square inch, shipping included with
$9 minimum order.  And  you don't buy the Gerbers.

I notice ExpressPCB offers free software.  But it is totally
non-standard and you can't use it for anything other then for their
service.  Most people needing free PCB software use Eagle, some use
Kicad or some others.  But Eagle seems to be kind of a universal
standard.




On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 8:55 AM, Didier Juges  wrote:

I concur. I have been using ExpressPCB extensively over the last 2 years
with great satisfaction now that it is possible to get Gerber files from
them.
I typically use the mini board pro service (3 bare boards, 2 sided with
solder mask and silk screen) for prototypes and then buy the Gerbers


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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Didier Juges]

Hi Bill,

I used Futurlec once and I was very happy with the results, but now most of my 
projects involve quantities of 50 or more pieces so I have the production 
quantities PWB made and the product assembly done (parts procurement, soldering 
and test) in a very large far Eastern country, kinda like Apple but on a 
slightly smaller scale...

I have now worked with the same company for 7-8 years and I am quite satisfied 
with the results and the prices, for well over 3,000 pieces in total.

As long as there are no long lead parts, I get finished products in the DHL 
about 3-4 weeks ARO from emailing them the Gerber's.

Didier KO4BB


On August 12, 2016 9:22:42 AM CDT, wb6bnq  wrote:
>Hi Didier,
>
>I use ExpressPCB as well, but I send the ExpressPCB file to a company 
>called Futurlec
>( http://www.futurlec.com/PCBService.shtml ).  They have reasonable 
>prices.  Because it is overseas it takes about three weeks to get the 
>product back.  So far I have been very impressed with the product I 
>recieved.  I have even had notches done in the four corners to fit a 
>plastic box that came out very well.
>
>Also, There is a person who started to write his own version  of layout
>
>program based off of the ExpressPCB program called  "Copper 
>Connection."  (  http://www.robotroom.com/CopperConnection/index.html )
> 
>It is a bit more involved than the ExpressPCB program and does have 
>GERBER files as a selection.  However he charges for the program but it
>
>seems the prices are reasonable ( 
>http://www.robotroom.com/CopperConnection/Buy.html ).
>
>73BillWB6BNQ
>
>
>Didier Juges wrote:
>
>>The way ExpressPCB works is that their free software produces boards
>in a proprietary format, and you have to pay to convert their design
>file to Gerber.
>>
>>Your mileage may vary but I found the combination of design tools
>learning curve, board quality and quick service to be worthwhile to me.
>>
>>I have tried Eagle twice and never could manage to build the models I
>needed. It may have been an issue of not finding the right tutorial but
>I have produced several ExpressPCB designs in less time than I have
>tried (unsuccessfully) to produce a single schematic in Eagle, let
>alone a PWB. Since it is a hobby that has become a business, time
>matters to me, design time and delivery.
>>
>>At that point, the cost of the Gerber becomes somewhat irrelevant.
>>
>>Note that you can make boards of any size in ExpressPCB.
>>
>>I am not advocating it is the best solution for everyone, I personally
>would like to be proficient with Eagle, but Express PCB works for me.
>>
>>Didier KO4BB
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On August 11, 2016 10:45:45 PM CDT, Chris Albertson
> wrote:
>>  
>>
>>>This seems totally backwards.  Typically a Gerber file is something
>>>you make yourself on your computer then send it in for a prototype.
>>>Seems odd to buy them.
>>>
>>>I checked ExpressPCB prices and they are very high.  I can get PCBs
>>>made quickly in the US for $3 per square inch, shipping included with
>>>$9 minimum order.  And  you don't buy the Gerbers.
>>>
>>>I notice ExpressPCB offers free software.  But it is totally
>>>non-standard and you can't use it for anything other then for their
>>>service.  Most people needing free PCB software use Eagle, some use
>>>Kicad or some others.  But Eagle seems to be kind of a universal
>>>standard.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 8:55 AM, Didier Juges 
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
I concur. I have been using ExpressPCB extensively over the last 2
  

>>>years
>>>
>>>
with great satisfaction now that it is possible to get Gerber files
  

>>>from
>>>
>>>
them.
I typically use the mini board pro service (3 bare boards, 2 sided
  

>>>with
>>>
>>>
solder mask and silk screen) for prototypes and then buy the Gerbers
  

>>>-- 
>>>
>>>Chris Albertson
>>>Redondo Beach, California
>>>___
>>>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>>>https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>  
>>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Didier Juges]

I just installed CopperConnection and it opens the ExpressPCB layouts just fine 
:)

Thanks for the tip, I will give it a go.

Didier KO4BB

On August 12, 2016 9:22:42 AM CDT, wb6bnq  wrote:
>Hi Didier,
>
>I use ExpressPCB as well, but I send the ExpressPCB file to a company 
>called Futurlec
>( http://www.futurlec.com/PCBService.shtml ).  They have reasonable 
>prices.  Because it is overseas it takes about three weeks to get the 
>product back.  So far I have been very impressed with the product I 
>recieved.  I have even had notches done in the four corners to fit a 
>plastic box that came out very well.
>
>Also, There is a person who started to write his own version  of layout
>
>program based off of the ExpressPCB program called  "Copper 
>Connection."  (  http://www.robotroom.com/CopperConnection/index.html )
> 
>It is a bit more involved than the ExpressPCB program and does have 
>GERBER files as a selection.  However he charges for the program but it
>
>seems the prices are reasonable ( 
>http://www.robotroom.com/CopperConnection/Buy.html ).
>
>73BillWB6BNQ
>
>
>Didier Juges wrote:
>
>>The way ExpressPCB works is that their free software produces boards
>in a proprietary format, and you have to pay to convert their design
>file to Gerber.
>>
>>Your mileage may vary but I found the combination of design tools
>learning curve, board quality and quick service to be worthwhile to me.
>>
>>I have tried Eagle twice and never could manage to build the models I
>needed. It may have been an issue of not finding the right tutorial but
>I have produced several ExpressPCB designs in less time than I have
>tried (unsuccessfully) to produce a single schematic in Eagle, let
>alone a PWB. Since it is a hobby that has become a business, time
>matters to me, design time and delivery.
>>
>>At that point, the cost of the Gerber becomes somewhat irrelevant.
>>
>>Note that you can make boards of any size in ExpressPCB.
>>
>>I am not advocating it is the best solution for everyone, I personally
>would like to be proficient with Eagle, but Express PCB works for me.
>>
>>Didier KO4BB
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On August 11, 2016 10:45:45 PM CDT, Chris Albertson
> wrote:
>>  
>>
>>>This seems totally backwards.  Typically a Gerber file is something
>>>you make yourself on your computer then send it in for a prototype.
>>>Seems odd to buy them.
>>>
>>>I checked ExpressPCB prices and they are very high.  I can get PCBs
>>>made quickly in the US for $3 per square inch, shipping included with
>>>$9 minimum order.  And  you don't buy the Gerbers.
>>>
>>>I notice ExpressPCB offers free software.  But it is totally
>>>non-standard and you can't use it for anything other then for their
>>>service.  Most people needing free PCB software use Eagle, some use
>>>Kicad or some others.  But Eagle seems to be kind of a universal
>>>standard.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 8:55 AM, Didier Juges 
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
I concur. I have been using ExpressPCB extensively over the last 2
  

>>>years
>>>
>>>
with great satisfaction now that it is possible to get Gerber files
  

>>>from
>>>
>>>
them.
I typically use the mini board pro service (3 bare boards, 2 sided
  

>>>with
>>>
>>>
solder mask and silk screen) for prototypes and then buy the Gerbers
  

>>>-- 
>>>
>>>Chris Albertson
>>>Redondo Beach, California
>>>___
>>>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>>To unsubscribe, go to
>>>https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>  
>>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[David]

In the past when I had access to magnifying lamps and stereo
microscopes suitable for printed circuit board work, I preferred the
former.  The extra magnification of the stereo microscopes was not
needed and the large magnifying lamp was easier on the eyes although
admittedly I wore glasses even then.

On Fri, 12 Aug 2016 09:14:26 -0400, you wrote:

>Hi
>
>You can get a pretty good microscope new for about $1,000. Getting them used 
>is a hit or 
>miss process. A lot of this stuff actually works very well when in good 
>condition with all the 
>parts (The Mantis is one example). Without all the parts they don’t work or 
>work poorly. 
>
>For most of what you do, there is no need for anything fancy. There is a 
>Mantis in full working
>condition at work. It never gets used. Magnifier lights get used a lot. Low 
>magnification 
>microscopes with really good halogen / fiber optic ring lights seem to be the 
>most 
>popular option. 
>
>Bob
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Tom Miller]

Bill, that is a great deal for $99 for the full package. Very easy to use 
and learn.


Thanks for the link.

Regards,
Tom
WA3PZI



- Original Message - 
From: "wb6bnq" <wb6...@cox.net>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
<time-nuts@febo.com>

Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.



Hi Didier,

I use ExpressPCB as well, but I send the ExpressPCB file to a company 
called Futurlec
( http://www.futurlec.com/PCBService.shtml ).  They have reasonable 
prices.  Because it is overseas it takes about three weeks to get the 
product back.  So far I have been very impressed with the product I 
recieved.  I have even had notches done in the four corners to fit a 
plastic box that came out very well.


Also, There is a person who started to write his own version  of layout 
program based off of the ExpressPCB program called  "Copper Connection." 
(  http://www.robotroom.com/CopperConnection/index.html )  It is a bit 
more involved than the ExpressPCB program and does have GERBER files as a 
selection.  However he charges for the program but it seems the prices are 
reasonable ( http://www.robotroom.com/CopperConnection/Buy.html ).


73BillWB6BNQ


Didier Juges wrote:

The way ExpressPCB works is that their free software produces boards in a 
proprietary format, and you have to pay to convert their design file to 
Gerber.


Your mileage may vary but I found the combination of design tools learning 
curve, board quality and quick service to be worthwhile to me.


I have tried Eagle twice and never could manage to build the models I 
needed. It may have been an issue of not finding the right tutorial but I 
have produced several ExpressPCB designs in less time than I have tried 
(unsuccessfully) to produce a single schematic in Eagle, let alone a PWB. 
Since it is a hobby that has become a business, time matters to me, design 
time and delivery.


At that point, the cost of the Gerber becomes somewhat irrelevant.

Note that you can make boards of any size in ExpressPCB.

I am not advocating it is the best solution for everyone, I personally 
would like to be proficient with Eagle, but Express PCB works for me.


Didier KO4BB




On August 11, 2016 10:45:45 PM CDT, Chris Albertson 
<albertson.ch...@gmail.com> wrote:



This seems totally backwards.  Typically a Gerber file is something
you make yourself on your computer then send it in for a prototype.
Seems odd to buy them.

I checked ExpressPCB prices and they are very high.  I can get PCBs
made quickly in the US for $3 per square inch, shipping included with
$9 minimum order.  And  you don't buy the Gerbers.

I notice ExpressPCB offers free software.  But it is totally
non-standard and you can't use it for anything other then for their
service.  Most people needing free PCB software use Eagle, some use
Kicad or some others.  But Eagle seems to be kind of a universal
standard.




On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 8:55 AM, Didier Juges <shali...@gmail.com>
wrote:


I concur. I have been using ExpressPCB extensively over the last 2


years


with great satisfaction now that it is possible to get Gerber files


from


them.
I typically use the mini board pro service (3 bare boards, 2 sided


with


solder mask and silk screen) for prototypes and then buy the Gerbers


--

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
___
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Chuck Harris]

I have never used the Mantis, though I considered one when
my eyes started to degrade.

My big problem with the mantis is all of the light that is
projected on the viewing screen has to be reflected from the
device being viewed.  That means you are throwing a lot of
heat and lumens at the device, and even with that you cannot
work in a brightly lit room the projected screen will be
too dim.

Just about any CCD/CMOS camera meant for use as a CATV camera,
when equipped with a good quality macro zoom lens, would work
nicely for SMT work. A long working distance, is essential,
which means good lenses.  I think it would take very little
expense and effort to greatly exceed the abilities of the
Mantis.

I, on the other hand, continue to use an Olympus Stereo Zoom
microscope (model SZH), and a not so cheap Russian copy of
another Olympus Stereo Zoom scope.  And live with a tableau
of translucent worms that cover everything I view.

You get used to it...

-Chuck Harris

Brooke Clarke wrote:
> Hi Chuck:
> 
> The Mantis is very expensive and the arm in the EEVblog review is not as 
> stable as my
> arm.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3o0EWHEH08
> about US$ 3300 retail, maybe $2000 eBay.
> In the review he is confused about 3D vs. perspective.
> The working distance does not look as long as the B
> http://www.prc68.com/I/SMT.shtml#Mag
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[wb6bnq]

Hi Didier,

I use ExpressPCB as well, but I send the ExpressPCB file to a company 
called Futurlec
( http://www.futurlec.com/PCBService.shtml ).  They have reasonable 
prices.  Because it is overseas it takes about three weeks to get the 
product back.  So far I have been very impressed with the product I 
recieved.  I have even had notches done in the four corners to fit a 
plastic box that came out very well.


Also, There is a person who started to write his own version  of layout 
program based off of the ExpressPCB program called  "Copper 
Connection."  (  http://www.robotroom.com/CopperConnection/index.html )  
It is a bit more involved than the ExpressPCB program and does have 
GERBER files as a selection.  However he charges for the program but it 
seems the prices are reasonable ( 
http://www.robotroom.com/CopperConnection/Buy.html ).


73BillWB6BNQ


Didier Juges wrote:


The way ExpressPCB works is that their free software produces boards in a 
proprietary format, and you have to pay to convert their design file to Gerber.

Your mileage may vary but I found the combination of design tools learning 
curve, board quality and quick service to be worthwhile to me.

I have tried Eagle twice and never could manage to build the models I needed. 
It may have been an issue of not finding the right tutorial but I have produced 
several ExpressPCB designs in less time than I have tried (unsuccessfully) to 
produce a single schematic in Eagle, let alone a PWB. Since it is a hobby that 
has become a business, time matters to me, design time and delivery.

At that point, the cost of the Gerber becomes somewhat irrelevant.

Note that you can make boards of any size in ExpressPCB.

I am not advocating it is the best solution for everyone, I personally would 
like to be proficient with Eagle, but Express PCB works for me.

Didier KO4BB




On August 11, 2016 10:45:45 PM CDT, Chris Albertson  
wrote:
 


This seems totally backwards.  Typically a Gerber file is something
you make yourself on your computer then send it in for a prototype.
Seems odd to buy them.

I checked ExpressPCB prices and they are very high.  I can get PCBs
made quickly in the US for $3 per square inch, shipping included with
$9 minimum order.  And  you don't buy the Gerbers.

I notice ExpressPCB offers free software.  But it is totally
non-standard and you can't use it for anything other then for their
service.  Most people needing free PCB software use Eagle, some use
Kicad or some others.  But Eagle seems to be kind of a universal
standard.




On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 8:55 AM, Didier Juges 
wrote:
   


I concur. I have been using ExpressPCB extensively over the last 2
 


years
   


with great satisfaction now that it is possible to get Gerber files
 


from
   


them.
I typically use the mini board pro service (3 bare boards, 2 sided
 


with
   


solder mask and silk screen) for prototypes and then buy the Gerbers
 


--

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
___
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Scott McGrath]

Yes however since you are simply submitting the circuit design it makes sense 
that they would hold the Gerber until you bought prototypes as unless you have 
software to create the Gerber it has value as once you have the Gerber you can 
have the boards built anywhere.They need to make a profit to stay in 
business after all

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

> On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:45 PM, Chris Albertson  
> wrote:
> 
> This seems totally backwards.  Typically a Gerber file is something
> you make yourself on your computer then send it in for a prototype.
> Seems odd to buy them.
> 
> I checked ExpressPCB prices and they are very high.  I can get PCBs
> made quickly in the US for $3 per square inch, shipping included with
> $9 minimum order.  And  you don't buy the Gerbers.
> 
> I notice ExpressPCB offers free software.  But it is totally
> non-standard and you can't use it for anything other then for their
> service.  Most people needing free PCB software use Eagle, some use
> Kicad or some others.  But Eagle seems to be kind of a universal
> standard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 8:55 AM, Didier Juges  wrote:
>> I concur. I have been using ExpressPCB extensively over the last 2 years
>> with great satisfaction now that it is possible to get Gerber files from
>> them.
>> I typically use the mini board pro service (3 bare boards, 2 sided with
>> solder mask and silk screen) for prototypes and then buy the Gerbers
> 
> -- 
> 
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Bob Camp]

Hi

You can get a pretty good microscope new for about $1,000. Getting them used is 
a hit or 
miss process. A lot of this stuff actually works very well when in good 
condition with all the 
parts (The Mantis is one example). Without all the parts they don’t work or 
work poorly. 

For most of what you do, there is no need for anything fancy. There is a Mantis 
in full working
condition at work. It never gets used. Magnifier lights get used a lot. Low 
magnification 
microscopes with really good halogen / fiber optic ring lights seem to be the 
most 
popular option. 

Bob


> On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:06 PM, Steve  wrote:
> 
> Can anyone compare the stereo microscope to a camera/monitor for use with 
> SMT? I have a cheap stereo microscope that I would like to replace with 
> either a much better stereo microscope or a camera/monitor. Is there a marked 
> advantage(s) of one versus the other?  I have no "floaters" to contend with.
> 
> Steve, K8JQ
> 
> On 8/11/2016 4:06 PM, Chuck Harris wrote:
>> Lots of good suggestions have already been made, but for
>> me, a boom style stereo microscope, with a distance between
>> the objective, and the focal point of at least 3 inches works
>> fairly well...
>> 
>> One other thing that may force your decision, if you are
>> older, your eyes will likely have lots of "floaters", which
>> are debris that floats around in your eyeballs.  This debris
>> floats in and out of the center of your field of view, and
>> looks like a bunch of translucent worms, or shadows.
>> 
>> Your brain, the magnificent organ that it is, tries to compensate
>> for your eye's degradation, and as long as your eyes can move
>> about in your field of view, it effectively removes the floaters
>> from the scenes you are viewing.
>> 
>> However, if you use a stereo microscope, your eye position
>> is fixed by the very limited amounts of off axis motion
>> that will allow a through optical channel.  This lack of off
>> axis motion will emphasize your floaters in a great way, and you
>> will see *every* *single* *one*, clearly, as if it were something
>> you really wanted to view.  Some times, the floaters will cover
>> the exact thing you need to see clearly, and you will have to
>> move it off axis by moving it on the microscope stage.
>> 
>> The only answer to this problem, is to either have perfect eyes,
>> or to use a microscope where you are looking at a screen, rather
>> than through a pair of oculars.  This way, your eyes can dart
>> around, and inspect what they need to see clearly, and the
>> floaters will be ignored by your brain.
>> 
>> As far as I know, there is only one optical microscope built this
>> way, and it is the very expensive Mantis.
>> 
>> Because of the great expense of flat screen optical microscopes,
>> most modern SMD viewing equipment is going to the trivially cheap
>> method of using a CCD/CMOS color video camera and an LCD screen.
>> 
>> You can do a lot with a cheap USB camera mounted to a boom, a fiber
>> optic light source, or a ring light, and a laptop computer to
>> display the image.
>> 
>> -Chuck Harris
>> 
>> Bob Albert via time-nuts wrote:
>>> What are the important parameters regarding purchase of a stereo 
>>> microscope?  I
>>> see some on ebay for around $50; are those good? Bob
>> ___
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>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Didier Juges]

The way ExpressPCB works is that their free software produces boards in a 
proprietary format, and you have to pay to convert their design file to Gerber.

Your mileage may vary but I found the combination of design tools learning 
curve, board quality and quick service to be worthwhile to me.

I have tried Eagle twice and never could manage to build the models I needed. 
It may have been an issue of not finding the right tutorial but I have produced 
several ExpressPCB designs in less time than I have tried (unsuccessfully) to 
produce a single schematic in Eagle, let alone a PWB. Since it is a hobby that 
has become a business, time matters to me, design time and delivery.

At that point, the cost of the Gerber becomes somewhat irrelevant.

Note that you can make boards of any size in ExpressPCB.

I am not advocating it is the best solution for everyone, I personally would 
like to be proficient with Eagle, but Express PCB works for me.

Didier KO4BB




On August 11, 2016 10:45:45 PM CDT, Chris Albertson  
wrote:
>This seems totally backwards.  Typically a Gerber file is something
>you make yourself on your computer then send it in for a prototype.
>Seems odd to buy them.
>
>I checked ExpressPCB prices and they are very high.  I can get PCBs
>made quickly in the US for $3 per square inch, shipping included with
>$9 minimum order.  And  you don't buy the Gerbers.
>
>I notice ExpressPCB offers free software.  But it is totally
>non-standard and you can't use it for anything other then for their
>service.  Most people needing free PCB software use Eagle, some use
>Kicad or some others.  But Eagle seems to be kind of a universal
>standard.
>
>
>
>
>On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 8:55 AM, Didier Juges 
>wrote:
>> I concur. I have been using ExpressPCB extensively over the last 2
>years
>> with great satisfaction now that it is possible to get Gerber files
>from
>> them.
>> I typically use the mini board pro service (3 bare boards, 2 sided
>with
>> solder mask and silk screen) for prototypes and then buy the Gerbers
>
>-- 
>
>Chris Albertson
>Redondo Beach, California
>___
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.

-- 
Sent from my Moto-X wireless tracker while I do other things.
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Bob Albert via time-nuts]

Chris, that makes sense.  The low cost Chinese microscopes seem to have only 
one magnification, usually 20x, probably too much for circuit work.  Also the 
stage is such that only a limited size board can be accommodated.  The ideal 
would be a stereo head on a boom, with magnification adjustable from say 3x to 
20x more or less.  I don't know where to get such an animal at a decent price.
I would only use this occasionally so investing substantial money isn't in the 
cards.  Perhaps someone has one to trade or to sell at a price I can justify.

Bob 

On Thursday, August 11, 2016 8:37 PM, Chris Albertson 
 wrote:
 

 There is quite a lot to know about stereo microscopes

The first decision is if you want to buy a new Chinese microscope or a
much older used professional grade US made scope.  The Chinese units
used to be total junk but not any more, or at least some of them are
good.  But at the $50 price point I doubt you are into the better
Chinese brands.    That said, inspecting electrical parts does not
require a state of the art microscope.  It is an easy task    But
can't say much more until you get to talking about exact make and
model.

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 10:24 AM, Bob Albert via time-nuts
 wrote:
> What are the important parameters regarding purchase of a stereo microscope?  
> I see some on ebay for around $50; are those good?
> Bob
>
>
>    On Thursday, August 11, 2016 10:00 AM, Didier Juges  
>wrote:
>
>
>  I concur. I have been using ExpressPCB extensively over the last 2 years
> with great satisfaction now that it is possible to get Gerber files from
> them.
> I typically use the mini board pro service (3 bare boards, 2 sided with
> solder mask and silk screen) for prototypes and then buy the Gerbers to
> have production quantities done overseas.
> The boards are of high quality and the service is very fast at a very
> reasonable price.
> The only gotcha with regard to Gerber files is that you can only buy
> Gerbers for boards that you have actually bought from them, so the process
> is to buy the prototypes, then if you are happy with those, buy the Gerbers
> for that design.
>
> Didier KO4BB
>
> On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:
>
>> Hi:
>>
>> I've had good luck using any of the the ExpressPCB services that include
>> solder mask with surface mount parts where the pitch is 0.05" (half normal
>> DIP) and hand soldering (requires stereo microscope).
>> http://www.prc68.com/I/BTSG.shtml (battery top signal generator)
>> http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/ICS525v1o.jpg
>>
>> http://www.prc68.com/I/SMT.shtml 
>>
>> --
>> Have Fun,
>>
>> Brooke Clarke
>> http://www.PRC68.com
>> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
>> The lesser of evils is still evil.
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
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> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California


  
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Bob Bownes]

I've got a great boom Zeiss microscope bought at an estate sale. Right
Place, Right Time.

Before that, I generally used a video camera with some extension tubes, a
USB video capture dongle, and a spare monitor I keep on the workbench. The
monitor and camera are connected with extension cables to the computer
across the room. (ok, 180degree chair swivel way :) )
Getting the lighting right is key. Light ring is good or light close to on
axis helps.

Bob


On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Graham / KE9H 
wrote:

> The best type of stereo microscope to use for SMT assembly is referred to
> as an "Inspection Microscope."
> Magnification greater than 10 is not needed or desirable for normal
> assembly.
> Something in the range of 5 to 10 works well.
> A wide field of view and a good light source are desirable.
>
> Just as Brooke says, my "zoom" always stays on the lowest setting. (Same as
> his, 0.7 times 10x = 7)
>
> --- Graham
>
> ==
>
> On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:
>
> > Hi Bob:
> >
> > I don't think it's so much the stereo microscope as the related
> > equipment.  I have a Bausch & Lomb StereoZoom 4  and the dial is always
> at
> > the lowest setting (0.7dial * 10X objective = 7 power).
> > For another reason I got a Nikon SMZ-U microscope and discovered that
> it's
> > so tall that it can not be used for SMT work.
> > http://www.prc68.com/I/NikonSMZ-U.html
> > So an important parameter is is length from the eyepiece to the
> > objective.  If that get to be long then you can not easily use it.
> >
> > Using an arm type support is very desirable.  These have a heavy metal
> > base with an horizontal arm.  You can swing the arm over whatever you're
> > working one and easily move the scope up or down as needed.
> > This all done while in a standard chair on a work bench/table.
> >
> > Although an old fashioned illuminator will work, see top photo:
> > http://www.prc68.com/I/SMT.shtml#Mag
> > A ring light is much more convenient (scroll down a little).
> >
> > Also the soldering iron tip to grip distance should be as short as you
> can
> > get.  (1.5" = burned fingers, 0.5" should be better)
> >
> > --
> > Have Fun,
> >
> > Brooke Clarke
> > http://www.PRC68.com
> > http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> > The lesser of evils is still evil.
> >
> >  Original Message 
> >
> >> What are the important parameters regarding purchase of a stereo
> >> microscope?  I see some on ebay for around $50; are those good?
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>  On Thursday, August 11, 2016 10:00 AM, Didier Juges <
> >> shali...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>   I concur. I have been using ExpressPCB extensively over the last 2
> years
> >> with great satisfaction now that it is possible to get Gerber files from
> >> them.
> >> I typically use the mini board pro service (3 bare boards, 2 sided with
> >> solder mask and silk screen) for prototypes and then buy the Gerbers to
> >> have production quantities done overseas.
> >> The boards are of high quality and the service is very fast at a very
> >> reasonable price.
> >> The only gotcha with regard to Gerber files is that you can only buy
> >> Gerbers for boards that you have actually bought from them, so the
> process
> >> is to buy the prototypes, then if you are happy with those, buy the
> >> Gerbers
> >> for that design.
> >>
> >> Didier KO4BB
> >>
> >> On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Brooke Clarke 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi:
> >>>
> >>> I've had good luck using any of the the ExpressPCB services that
> include
> >>> solder mask with surface mount parts where the pitch is 0.05" (half
> >>> normal
> >>> DIP) and hand soldering (requires stereo microscope).
> >>> http://www.prc68.com/I/BTSG.shtml (battery top signal generator)
> >>> http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/ICS525v1o.jpg
> >>>
> >>> http://www.prc68.com/I/SMT.shtml 
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Have Fun,
> >>>
> >>> Brooke Clarke
> >>> http://www.PRC68.com
> >>> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> >>> The lesser of evils is still evil.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> >>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> >> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >>
> >>___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> >> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >>
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, 

Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Steve]

Can anyone compare the stereo microscope to a camera/monitor for use 
with SMT? I have a cheap stereo microscope that I would like to replace 
with either a much better stereo microscope or a camera/monitor. Is 
there a marked advantage(s) of one versus the other?  I have no 
"floaters" to contend with.


Steve, K8JQ

On 8/11/2016 4:06 PM, Chuck Harris wrote:

Lots of good suggestions have already been made, but for
me, a boom style stereo microscope, with a distance between
the objective, and the focal point of at least 3 inches works
fairly well...

One other thing that may force your decision, if you are
older, your eyes will likely have lots of "floaters", which
are debris that floats around in your eyeballs.  This debris
floats in and out of the center of your field of view, and
looks like a bunch of translucent worms, or shadows.

Your brain, the magnificent organ that it is, tries to compensate
for your eye's degradation, and as long as your eyes can move
about in your field of view, it effectively removes the floaters
from the scenes you are viewing.

However, if you use a stereo microscope, your eye position
is fixed by the very limited amounts of off axis motion
that will allow a through optical channel.  This lack of off
axis motion will emphasize your floaters in a great way, and you
will see *every* *single* *one*, clearly, as if it were something
you really wanted to view.  Some times, the floaters will cover
the exact thing you need to see clearly, and you will have to
move it off axis by moving it on the microscope stage.

The only answer to this problem, is to either have perfect eyes,
or to use a microscope where you are looking at a screen, rather
than through a pair of oculars.  This way, your eyes can dart
around, and inspect what they need to see clearly, and the
floaters will be ignored by your brain.

As far as I know, there is only one optical microscope built this
way, and it is the very expensive Mantis.

Because of the great expense of flat screen optical microscopes,
most modern SMD viewing equipment is going to the trivially cheap
method of using a CCD/CMOS color video camera and an LCD screen.

You can do a lot with a cheap USB camera mounted to a boom, a fiber
optic light source, or a ring light, and a laptop computer to
display the image.

-Chuck Harris

Bob Albert via time-nuts wrote:

What are the important parameters regarding purchase of a stereo microscope?  I
see some on ebay for around $50; are those good? Bob

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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Chris Albertson]

There is quite a lot to know about stereo microscopes

The first decision is if you want to buy a new Chinese microscope or a
much older used professional grade US made scope.   The Chinese units
used to be total junk but not any more, or at least some of them are
good.   But at the $50 price point I doubt you are into the better
Chinese brands.That said, inspecting electrical parts does not
require a state of the art microscope.   It is an easy task But
can't say much more until you get to talking about exact make and
model.

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 10:24 AM, Bob Albert via time-nuts
 wrote:
> What are the important parameters regarding purchase of a stereo microscope?  
> I see some on ebay for around $50; are those good?
> Bob
>
>
> On Thursday, August 11, 2016 10:00 AM, Didier Juges  
> wrote:
>
>
>  I concur. I have been using ExpressPCB extensively over the last 2 years
> with great satisfaction now that it is possible to get Gerber files from
> them.
> I typically use the mini board pro service (3 bare boards, 2 sided with
> solder mask and silk screen) for prototypes and then buy the Gerbers to
> have production quantities done overseas.
> The boards are of high quality and the service is very fast at a very
> reasonable price.
> The only gotcha with regard to Gerber files is that you can only buy
> Gerbers for boards that you have actually bought from them, so the process
> is to buy the prototypes, then if you are happy with those, buy the Gerbers
> for that design.
>
> Didier KO4BB
>
> On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:
>
>> Hi:
>>
>> I've had good luck using any of the the ExpressPCB services that include
>> solder mask with surface mount parts where the pitch is 0.05" (half normal
>> DIP) and hand soldering (requires stereo microscope).
>> http://www.prc68.com/I/BTSG.shtml (battery top signal generator)
>> http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/ICS525v1o.jpg
>>
>> http://www.prc68.com/I/SMT.shtml 
>>
>> --
>> Have Fun,
>>
>> Brooke Clarke
>> http://www.PRC68.com
>> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
>> The lesser of evils is still evil.
>>
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
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>
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Chuck:

The Mantis is very expensive and the arm in the EEVblog review is not as stable 
as my arm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3o0EWHEH08
about US$ 3300 retail, maybe $2000 eBay.
In the review he is confused about 3D vs. perspective.
The working distance does not look as long as the B
http://www.prc68.com/I/SMT.shtml#Mag

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

 Original Message 

Lots of good suggestions have already been made, but for
me, a boom style stereo microscope, with a distance between
the objective, and the focal point of at least 3 inches works
fairly well...

One other thing that may force your decision, if you are
older, your eyes will likely have lots of "floaters", which
are debris that floats around in your eyeballs.  This debris
floats in and out of the center of your field of view, and
looks like a bunch of translucent worms, or shadows.

Your brain, the magnificent organ that it is, tries to compensate
for your eye's degradation, and as long as your eyes can move
about in your field of view, it effectively removes the floaters
from the scenes you are viewing.

However, if you use a stereo microscope, your eye position
is fixed by the very limited amounts of off axis motion
that will allow a through optical channel.  This lack of off
axis motion will emphasize your floaters in a great way, and you
will see *every* *single* *one*, clearly, as if it were something
you really wanted to view.  Some times, the floaters will cover
the exact thing you need to see clearly, and you will have to
move it off axis by moving it on the microscope stage.

The only answer to this problem, is to either have perfect eyes,
or to use a microscope where you are looking at a screen, rather
than through a pair of oculars.  This way, your eyes can dart
around, and inspect what they need to see clearly, and the
floaters will be ignored by your brain.

As far as I know, there is only one optical microscope built this
way, and it is the very expensive Mantis.

Because of the great expense of flat screen optical microscopes,
most modern SMD viewing equipment is going to the trivially cheap
method of using a CCD/CMOS color video camera and an LCD screen.

You can do a lot with a cheap USB camera mounted to a boom, a fiber
optic light source, or a ring light, and a laptop computer to
display the image.

-Chuck Harris

Bob Albert via time-nuts wrote:

What are the important parameters regarding purchase of a stereo microscope?  I
see some on ebay for around $50; are those good? Bob

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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Chris Albertson]

This seems totally backwards.  Typically a Gerber file is something
you make yourself on your computer then send it in for a prototype.
Seems odd to buy them.

I checked ExpressPCB prices and they are very high.  I can get PCBs
made quickly in the US for $3 per square inch, shipping included with
$9 minimum order.  And  you don't buy the Gerbers.

I notice ExpressPCB offers free software.  But it is totally
non-standard and you can't use it for anything other then for their
service.  Most people needing free PCB software use Eagle, some use
Kicad or some others.  But Eagle seems to be kind of a universal
standard.




On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 8:55 AM, Didier Juges  wrote:
> I concur. I have been using ExpressPCB extensively over the last 2 years
> with great satisfaction now that it is possible to get Gerber files from
> them.
> I typically use the mini board pro service (3 bare boards, 2 sided with
> solder mask and silk screen) for prototypes and then buy the Gerbers

-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Graham / KE9H]

The best type of stereo microscope to use for SMT assembly is referred to
as an "Inspection Microscope."
Magnification greater than 10 is not needed or desirable for normal
assembly.
Something in the range of 5 to 10 works well.
A wide field of view and a good light source are desirable.

Just as Brooke says, my "zoom" always stays on the lowest setting. (Same as
his, 0.7 times 10x = 7)

--- Graham

==

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:

> Hi Bob:
>
> I don't think it's so much the stereo microscope as the related
> equipment.  I have a Bausch & Lomb StereoZoom 4  and the dial is always at
> the lowest setting (0.7dial * 10X objective = 7 power).
> For another reason I got a Nikon SMZ-U microscope and discovered that it's
> so tall that it can not be used for SMT work.
> http://www.prc68.com/I/NikonSMZ-U.html
> So an important parameter is is length from the eyepiece to the
> objective.  If that get to be long then you can not easily use it.
>
> Using an arm type support is very desirable.  These have a heavy metal
> base with an horizontal arm.  You can swing the arm over whatever you're
> working one and easily move the scope up or down as needed.
> This all done while in a standard chair on a work bench/table.
>
> Although an old fashioned illuminator will work, see top photo:
> http://www.prc68.com/I/SMT.shtml#Mag
> A ring light is much more convenient (scroll down a little).
>
> Also the soldering iron tip to grip distance should be as short as you can
> get.  (1.5" = burned fingers, 0.5" should be better)
>
> --
> Have Fun,
>
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> The lesser of evils is still evil.
>
>  Original Message 
>
>> What are the important parameters regarding purchase of a stereo
>> microscope?  I see some on ebay for around $50; are those good?
>> Bob
>>
>>  On Thursday, August 11, 2016 10:00 AM, Didier Juges <
>> shali...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>   I concur. I have been using ExpressPCB extensively over the last 2 years
>> with great satisfaction now that it is possible to get Gerber files from
>> them.
>> I typically use the mini board pro service (3 bare boards, 2 sided with
>> solder mask and silk screen) for prototypes and then buy the Gerbers to
>> have production quantities done overseas.
>> The boards are of high quality and the service is very fast at a very
>> reasonable price.
>> The only gotcha with regard to Gerber files is that you can only buy
>> Gerbers for boards that you have actually bought from them, so the process
>> is to buy the prototypes, then if you are happy with those, buy the
>> Gerbers
>> for that design.
>>
>> Didier KO4BB
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:
>>
>> Hi:
>>>
>>> I've had good luck using any of the the ExpressPCB services that include
>>> solder mask with surface mount parts where the pitch is 0.05" (half
>>> normal
>>> DIP) and hand soldering (requires stereo microscope).
>>> http://www.prc68.com/I/BTSG.shtml (battery top signal generator)
>>> http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/ICS525v1o.jpg
>>>
>>> http://www.prc68.com/I/SMT.shtml 
>>>
>>> --
>>> Have Fun,
>>>
>>> Brooke Clarke
>>> http://www.PRC68.com
>>> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
>>> The lesser of evils is still evil.
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>>___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Chuck Harris]

Lots of good suggestions have already been made, but for
me, a boom style stereo microscope, with a distance between
the objective, and the focal point of at least 3 inches works
fairly well...

One other thing that may force your decision, if you are
older, your eyes will likely have lots of "floaters", which
are debris that floats around in your eyeballs.  This debris
floats in and out of the center of your field of view, and
looks like a bunch of translucent worms, or shadows.

Your brain, the magnificent organ that it is, tries to compensate
for your eye's degradation, and as long as your eyes can move
about in your field of view, it effectively removes the floaters
from the scenes you are viewing.

However, if you use a stereo microscope, your eye position
is fixed by the very limited amounts of off axis motion
that will allow a through optical channel.  This lack of off
axis motion will emphasize your floaters in a great way, and you
will see *every* *single* *one*, clearly, as if it were something
you really wanted to view.  Some times, the floaters will cover
the exact thing you need to see clearly, and you will have to
move it off axis by moving it on the microscope stage.

The only answer to this problem, is to either have perfect eyes,
or to use a microscope where you are looking at a screen, rather
than through a pair of oculars.  This way, your eyes can dart
around, and inspect what they need to see clearly, and the
floaters will be ignored by your brain.

As far as I know, there is only one optical microscope built this
way, and it is the very expensive Mantis.

Because of the great expense of flat screen optical microscopes,
most modern SMD viewing equipment is going to the trivially cheap
method of using a CCD/CMOS color video camera and an LCD screen.

You can do a lot with a cheap USB camera mounted to a boom, a fiber
optic light source, or a ring light, and a laptop computer to
display the image.

-Chuck Harris

Bob Albert via time-nuts wrote:
> What are the important parameters regarding purchase of a stereo microscope?  
> I
> see some on ebay for around $50; are those good? Bob
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Bob Darlington]

I use a Nikon and a Meiji that I picked up surplus on the cheap.

Lighting matters.  Fostec ring illuminators are okay, but I prefer
something with gooseneck arms so I actually do have shadows.  Light from a
particular angle can help rather than nice uniform illumination.

#1 recommendation I have for a stereo microscope for soldering use is get
one that can take a filter disc.  In the very least put some saran wrap
around the bottom.  Condensing flux vapors make a mess of the optics over
the years.

#2 is recognizing you don't need all that much magnification to do the
work.  50x is a lot of magnification.  Way more than you need for 0402
parts.

I've also found that brains are a pretty amazing PID controller.  10x
magnification seems to result in 1/10th the hand shake.

-Bob


On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Bob Albert via time-nuts <
time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:

> What are the important parameters regarding purchase of a stereo
> microscope?  I see some on ebay for around $50; are those good?
> Bob
>
>
> On Thursday, August 11, 2016 10:00 AM, Didier Juges <
> shali...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>  I concur. I have been using ExpressPCB extensively over the last 2 years
> with great satisfaction now that it is possible to get Gerber files from
> them.
> I typically use the mini board pro service (3 bare boards, 2 sided with
> solder mask and silk screen) for prototypes and then buy the Gerbers to
> have production quantities done overseas.
> The boards are of high quality and the service is very fast at a very
> reasonable price.
> The only gotcha with regard to Gerber files is that you can only buy
> Gerbers for boards that you have actually bought from them, so the process
> is to buy the prototypes, then if you are happy with those, buy the Gerbers
> for that design.
>
> Didier KO4BB
>
> On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:
>
> > Hi:
> >
> > I've had good luck using any of the the ExpressPCB services that include
> > solder mask with surface mount parts where the pitch is 0.05" (half
> normal
> > DIP) and hand soldering (requires stereo microscope).
> > http://www.prc68.com/I/BTSG.shtml (battery top signal generator)
> > http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/ICS525v1o.jpg
> >
> > http://www.prc68.com/I/SMT.shtml 
> >
> > --
> > Have Fun,
> >
> > Brooke Clarke
> > http://www.PRC68.com
> > http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> > The lesser of evils is still evil.
> >
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> > ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
> ___
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> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Bob:

I don't think it's so much the stereo microscope as the related equipment.  I have a Bausch & Lomb StereoZoom 4  and the 
dial is always at the lowest setting (0.7dial * 10X objective = 7 power).

For another reason I got a Nikon SMZ-U microscope and discovered that it's so 
tall that it can not be used for SMT work.
http://www.prc68.com/I/NikonSMZ-U.html
So an important parameter is is length from the eyepiece to the objective.  If that get to be long then you can not 
easily use it.


Using an arm type support is very desirable.  These have a heavy metal base with an horizontal arm.  You can swing the 
arm over whatever you're working one and easily move the scope up or down as needed.

This all done while in a standard chair on a work bench/table.

Although an old fashioned illuminator will work, see top photo:
http://www.prc68.com/I/SMT.shtml#Mag
A ring light is much more convenient (scroll down a little).

Also the soldering iron tip to grip distance should be as short as you can get.  (1.5" = burned fingers, 0.5" should be 
better)


--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

 Original Message 

What are the important parameters regarding purchase of a stereo microscope?  I 
see some on ebay for around $50; are those good?
Bob
  


 On Thursday, August 11, 2016 10:00 AM, Didier Juges  
wrote:
  


  I concur. I have been using ExpressPCB extensively over the last 2 years
with great satisfaction now that it is possible to get Gerber files from
them.
I typically use the mini board pro service (3 bare boards, 2 sided with
solder mask and silk screen) for prototypes and then buy the Gerbers to
have production quantities done overseas.
The boards are of high quality and the service is very fast at a very
reasonable price.
The only gotcha with regard to Gerber files is that you can only buy
Gerbers for boards that you have actually bought from them, so the process
is to buy the prototypes, then if you are happy with those, buy the Gerbers
for that design.

Didier KO4BB

On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:


Hi:

I've had good luck using any of the the ExpressPCB services that include
solder mask with surface mount parts where the pitch is 0.05" (half normal
DIP) and hand soldering (requires stereo microscope).
http://www.prc68.com/I/BTSG.shtml (battery top signal generator)
http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/ICS525v1o.jpg

http://www.prc68.com/I/SMT.shtml 

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.


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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Didier:

Another option is to send the free ExpressPCB files to FAR Circuits for production.  This can be very cost effective if 
you only need a simple circuit.  Vias not supported.

www.farcircuits.net/EXPRESS%20PCB%20DOC.doc

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

 Original Message 

I concur. I have been using ExpressPCB extensively over the last 2 years
with great satisfaction now that it is possible to get Gerber files from
them.
I typically use the mini board pro service (3 bare boards, 2 sided with
solder mask and silk screen) for prototypes and then buy the Gerbers to
have production quantities done overseas.
The boards are of high quality and the service is very fast at a very
reasonable price.
The only gotcha with regard to Gerber files is that you can only buy
Gerbers for boards that you have actually bought from them, so the process
is to buy the prototypes, then if you are happy with those, buy the Gerbers
for that design.

Didier KO4BB

On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:


Hi:

I've had good luck using any of the the ExpressPCB services that include
solder mask with surface mount parts where the pitch is 0.05" (half normal
DIP) and hand soldering (requires stereo microscope).
http://www.prc68.com/I/BTSG.shtml (battery top signal generator)
http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/ICS525v1o.jpg

http://www.prc68.com/I/SMT.shtml 

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.


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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Bob Stewart]

Hi Bob,
You want to get something along the lines of ebay item 272331719376 or 
262202931320.  The boom is pretty important, otherwise how do you get your 
boards under the microscope if they're not very small?  Some time ago, I got a 
Bausch & Lomb Stereo 3 with 10X oculars and a 0.5 barlow.  The zoom scale on 
the scope reads 0.7 to 3.  This, combined with the 10X oculars gives it a zoom 
range of 7X to 30X.  This is a bit strong for doing PCB work, so the 0.5 barlow 
cuts that in half to 3.5X to 15X which is just about right.  I leave the boom 
at the right height to do soldering on the bench, but don't have the lateral 
thumbscrew on the boom tightened, so I can move the scope left and right or out 
of the way.  I wouldn't pay extra for a fancy light system like you'll see on 
many auctions.  Instead, I bought an LED light ring to go around the barlow 
lens on the bottom.  It has a brightness control, so it works out well.

As far as the board suppliers, I tried ExpressPCB at first, but they're pretty 
expensive, and you're stuck with their board size.  So, I switched to 
OshPark.com.  They don't supply proprietary board design software, which is 
fine, because there is a free version of Eagle, or you can use Kicad like I do. 
 (Kicad can output Gerber files.)  I believe that both Mouser and DigiKey have 
free board design software, as well.  But, the risk with those is that they 
either go away or become pay systems.
Bob - AE6RV
 -
AE6RV.com

GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info

  From: Bob Albert via time-nuts <time-nuts@febo.com>
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts@febo.com> 
 Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:24 PM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.
   
What are the important parameters regarding purchase of a stereo microscope?  I 
see some on ebay for around $50; are those good?
Bob
 

  
  
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Bob Albert via time-nuts]

What are the important parameters regarding purchase of a stereo microscope?  I 
see some on ebay for around $50; are those good?
Bob
 

On Thursday, August 11, 2016 10:00 AM, Didier Juges  
wrote:
 

 I concur. I have been using ExpressPCB extensively over the last 2 years
with great satisfaction now that it is possible to get Gerber files from
them.
I typically use the mini board pro service (3 bare boards, 2 sided with
solder mask and silk screen) for prototypes and then buy the Gerbers to
have production quantities done overseas.
The boards are of high quality and the service is very fast at a very
reasonable price.
The only gotcha with regard to Gerber files is that you can only buy
Gerbers for boards that you have actually bought from them, so the process
is to buy the prototypes, then if you are happy with those, buy the Gerbers
for that design.

Didier KO4BB

On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:

> Hi:
>
> I've had good luck using any of the the ExpressPCB services that include
> solder mask with surface mount parts where the pitch is 0.05" (half normal
> DIP) and hand soldering (requires stereo microscope).
> http://www.prc68.com/I/BTSG.shtml (battery top signal generator)
> http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/ICS525v1o.jpg
>
> http://www.prc68.com/I/SMT.shtml 
>
> --
> Have Fun,
>
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> The lesser of evils is still evil.
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Didier Juges]

I concur. I have been using ExpressPCB extensively over the last 2 years
with great satisfaction now that it is possible to get Gerber files from
them.
I typically use the mini board pro service (3 bare boards, 2 sided with
solder mask and silk screen) for prototypes and then buy the Gerbers to
have production quantities done overseas.
The boards are of high quality and the service is very fast at a very
reasonable price.
The only gotcha with regard to Gerber files is that you can only buy
Gerbers for boards that you have actually bought from them, so the process
is to buy the prototypes, then if you are happy with those, buy the Gerbers
for that design.

Didier KO4BB

On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:

> Hi:
>
> I've had good luck using any of the the ExpressPCB services that include
> solder mask with surface mount parts where the pitch is 0.05" (half normal
> DIP) and hand soldering (requires stereo microscope).
> http://www.prc68.com/I/BTSG.shtml (battery top signal generator)
> http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/ICS525v1o.jpg
>
> http://www.prc68.com/I/SMT.shtml 
>
> --
> Have Fun,
>
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> The lesser of evils is still evil.
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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and follow the instructions there.