Re: [Tinycc-devel] Outdated .def files
GetVersionEx is also odd as it is stuck to 8 the version it returns for Windows 10 and 11 by default. To make it return the right version you need to call mt tool with a manifest file like below. OpenLisp by Eligis But tcc has no mt patching tool as you know. To let tcc toolchain working without other Microsoft VC++ tools I wrote my on mt version and I asked the group the permission to push it but got no reply. The tool is here: https://sourceforge.net/p/wintcc/svn/HEAD/tree/ports/mt/mt.c Feel free to take it if you like. It may be part of tcc front end like "tcc -mt" similar to "tcc -ar" Christian -Original Message- From: grischka [mailto:gris...@gmx.de] Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2021 21:02 To: jull...@eligis.com; tinycc-devel@nongnu.org Subject: Re: [Tinycc-devel] Outdated .def files Christian Jullien wrote: > Hi Grischka, > > I fact I processed differently. I was very disappointed to see that my code > compiled by tcc reported "Windows 10" on "Windows 11" because kernel32.def > lacks the few API I recently added for this purpose. As far as I can see, "Windows 11" identifies itself as 10.0.21995(++), that is "Windows 10" with a build number >= 21995. And that information can be obtained simply with "GetVersion()" which exists forever in all windoses. While it seems that the API you just did add to the tinycc kernel32.def already has been depreciated again: "VerifyVersionInfoA function (winbase.h) ... Note: This function has been deprecated for Windows 10. See 'targeting your applications for Windows' for more information." And even the old GetVersionEx() was admittedly added only for the stupids: "The GetVersionEx function was developed because many existing applications err when examining the packed DWORD value returned by GetVersion, transposing the major and minor version numbers..." (of course it's not the applications but the people who wrote them). Seen that I'm inclined to think that much of the 3 times as big kernel32.def from newer windoses that you did mention doesn't really serve a purpose other than to support an increasing stupidity (or at least the assumption of it) ?!? Or otherwise that the purpose is to make people feel more stupid than they really are: "In time there will be a way to properly detect Windows 11, I'm sure Microsoft is still figuring out the most complicated way to make life more difficult for developers" and "Don't worry, they have a guy for that I'm sure." comments from https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/gpu-z-2-40-2-vs-windows-11.283417 / Really I don't care which scenario they want to prepare for with their OS, but then again is is still up to us where we make TinyCC to go. In any case saying "OUtdated .def files" means to me that you didn't really understand anything of it. As a fact the files were "outdated" already in their very first incarnation when added in 2005 and haven't seen any significant changes since then. Therefor "outdated" isn't really a category for something that never was up-to-date nor ever even tried to be. Btw. the easiest way to have all the functions of the windows system dll's is just to delete the tinycc .def files on your computer. --- grischka ___ Tinycc-devel mailing list Tinycc-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/tinycc-devel
Re: [Tinycc-devel] Outdated .def files
Christian Jullien wrote: Hi Grischka, I fact I processed differently. I was very disappointed to see that my code compiled by tcc reported "Windows 10" on "Windows 11" because kernel32.def lacks the few API I recently added for this purpose. As far as I can see, "Windows 11" identifies itself as 10.0.21995(++), that is "Windows 10" with a build number >= 21995. And that information can be obtained simply with "GetVersion()" which exists forever in all windoses. While it seems that the API you just did add to the tinycc kernel32.def already has been depreciated again: "VerifyVersionInfoA function (winbase.h) ... Note: This function has been deprecated for Windows 10. See 'targeting your applications for Windows' for more information." And even the old GetVersionEx() was admittedly added only for the stupids: "The GetVersionEx function was developed because many existing applications err when examining the packed DWORD value returned by GetVersion, transposing the major and minor version numbers..." (of course it's not the applications but the people who wrote them). Seen that I'm inclined to think that much of the 3 times as big kernel32.def from newer windoses that you did mention doesn't really serve a purpose other than to support an increasing stupidity (or at least the assumption of it) ?!? Or otherwise that the purpose is to make people feel more stupid than they really are: "In time there will be a way to properly detect Windows 11, I'm sure Microsoft is still figuring out the most complicated way to make life more difficult for developers" and "Don't worry, they have a guy for that I'm sure." comments from https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/gpu-z-2-40-2-vs-windows-11.283417/ Really I don't care which scenario they want to prepare for with their OS, but then again is is still up to us where we make TinyCC to go. In any case saying "OUtdated .def files" means to me that you didn't really understand anything of it. As a fact the files were "outdated" already in their very first incarnation when added in 2005 and haven't seen any significant changes since then. Therefor "outdated" isn't really a category for something that never was up-to-date nor ever even tried to be. Btw. the easiest way to have all the functions of the windows system dll's is just to delete the tinycc .def files on your computer. --- grischka ___ Tinycc-devel mailing list Tinycc-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/tinycc-devel
Re: [Tinycc-devel] Outdated .def files
Hi Grischka, I fact I processed differently. I was very disappointed to see that my code compiled by tcc reported "Windows 10" on "Windows 11" because kernel32.def lacks the few API I recently added for this purpose. Right after this push, I generated a kernel32.def from my Windows 10 machine to see what are the differences from the version in tcc repo. Diff is quite large as the latest kernel32.def is 3x times bigger. Now the right question is. If I need xx function present in Windows yy and not already in kernel32.def what should I do? An easy, but very egoist, solution is to generate new versions of .def form Windows yy kernel32.dll and use it **locally** to compile my project. But other people will have to do the same for their own projects. I have the impression that if you use a kernel32.def from a recent Windows version you can still dynamic link with kernel32.dll as long as you only use functions from this specific version. Hence, an old kernel32.def prevents to use more recent API while a very recent kernel32.def allows to use any version (but you may experience error at runtime if the function you use is not present in kernel32.dll). The most portable solution is of course to query function xx using LoadLibrary/GetProcAddress but is it very tedious if you have a large number of functions you want to use esp. if you target Windows versions all having xx function. There is no good solution but, IMHO, an updated kernel32.def gives more choices. C. -Original Message- From: grischka [mailto:gris...@gmx.de] Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2021 14:06 To: jull...@eligis.com; tinycc-devel@nongnu.org Subject: Re: [Tinycc-devel] Outdated .def files Christian Jullien wrote: > Hi, > If I regenerate a kernel32.def out of kernel32.dll on my Windows 10 21H1 > machine it is 3x times bigger that the one that currently comes with > tcc. (see enclosed) > > It means many kernel32 API are not directly available for tcc. > > It is probably the same with other .def files > > What do you advice ? > Hi Christian, didn't you already give the answer by your last commit that adds 3 functions to the kernel.def that we currently have. You would not have done that if you wanted to replace it all together with a newer version. Not at least since you recently did promise not to touch the push button until you actually did find the solution suited to stay for a decent while without further intervention from either yourself or from other people. -- grischka ___ Tinycc-devel mailing list Tinycc-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/tinycc-devel
Re: [Tinycc-devel] Outdated .def files
If I use recent VC++ on Windows 10, I can limit myself to the set of API supported by XP and the result will (should) run on Windows XP. If I however use specific Windows 10 API, it will hand on XP. My opinion is that tcc should use a recent (latest?) kernel32.def and let the user decide what subset he supports. In theory, _WIN32_WINNT should limit the subset an application can see by giving only the definitions available for a given version. I’m far from certain that our .h is aware of the different definitions. A least a tcc developer will be able to supply its own declaration and use the associated definition in kernel32.def M2c From: avih [mailto:avih...@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2021 08:09 To: tinycc-devel@nongnu.org; jull...@eligis.com Subject: Re: [Tinycc-devel] Outdated .def files I _think_ the current win32 definitions are from Windows XP. If we update to newer definitions, then I assume it would compile successfully programs which use newer APIs, but the question is what happens at runtime. mingw has a system to define what to target (I don't recall the specifics), so unless tcc's mingw files already have it, I think it would need to be added, or at least considered. - avih On Saturday, September 18, 2021, 09:03:12 AM GMT+3, Christian Jullien wrote: Hi, If I regenerate a kernel32.def out of kernel32.dll on my Windows 10 21H1 machine it is 3x times bigger that the one that currently comes with tcc. (see enclosed) It means many kernel32 API are not directly available for tcc. It is probably the same with other .def files What do you advice ? ___ Tinycc-devel mailing list Tinycc-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/tinycc-devel ___ Tinycc-devel mailing list Tinycc-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/tinycc-devel
Re: [Tinycc-devel] Outdated .def files
I _think_ the current win32 definitions are from Windows XP. If we update to newer definitions, then I assume it would compile successfully programs which use newer APIs, but the question is what happens at runtime. mingw has a system to define what to target (I don't recall the specifics), so unless tcc's mingw files already have it, I think it would need to be added, or at least considered. - avih On Saturday, September 18, 2021, 09:03:12 AM GMT+3, Christian Jullien wrote: Hi, If I regenerate a kernel32.def out of kernel32.dll on my Windows 10 21H1 machine it is 3x times bigger that the one that currently comes with tcc. (see enclosed) It means many kernel32 API are not directly available for tcc. It is probably the same with other .def files What do you advice ? ___ Tinycc-devel mailing list Tinycc-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/tinycc-devel ___ Tinycc-devel mailing list Tinycc-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/tinycc-devel
[Tinycc-devel] Outdated .def files
Hi, If I regenerate a kernel32.def out of kernel32.dll on my Windows 10 21H1 machine it is 3x times bigger that the one that currently comes with tcc. (see enclosed) It means many kernel32 API are not directly available for tcc. It is probably the same with other .def files What do you advice ? kernel32.def Description: Binary data ___ Tinycc-devel mailing list Tinycc-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/tinycc-devel
