Re: [TLS] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-tls-tls13-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

[Eric Rescorla]

On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 6:16 AM, Eric Rescorla  wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 5:29 AM, Alexey Melnikov 
> wrote:
>
>> Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-ietf-tls-tls13-26: Discuss
>>
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>
>>
>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>
>>
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-tls13/
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> DISCUSS:
>> --
>>
>> Thank you for a well written document. I will be switching to Yes once the
>> following is addressed/discussed:
>>
>> Relationship to TLS 1.2 needs to be clarified. The document is adding
>> requirements on TLS 1.2 clients. Implementors of TLS 1.2 are not going to
>> (or
>> very unlikely to) read this document. This looks fishy to me. Two
>> examples on
>> page 37:
>>
>>   TLS 1.2 clients SHOULD also check that the last eight bytes  are not
>> equal to
>>   the second value if the ServerHello indicates TLS  1.1 or below
>>
>> and
>>
>>  A legacy TLS client performing renegotiation with TLS 1.2 or prior  and
>> which
>>  receives a TLS 1.3 ServerHello during renegotiation MUST  abort the
>> handshake
>>  with a "protocol_version" alert.  Note that  renegotiation is not
>> possible
>>  when TLS 1.3 has been negotiated.
>>
>> There are similar statements on page 45:
>>
>>   TLS 1.2 implementations SHOULD also process this extension.
>>
>> and on page 48:
>>
>>   However, the old semantics did not constrain the signing
>>   curve.  If TLS 1.2 is negotiated, implementations MUST be prepared
>>   to accept a signature that uses any curve that they advertised in
>>   the "supported_groups" extension.
>>
>> I think you need to clarify whether these normative requirements apply to
>> pure
>> TLS 1.2 clients or TLS clients that implement both 1.2 and 1.3 and choose
>> to
>> use 1.2 for some reason. Or maybe you need to say in the
>> Abstract/Introduction
>> that although this document obsoletes TLS 1.2 it also specifies new
>> requirements on TLS 1.2 implementations. (So it is sort of both
>> "Obsoletes" and
>> "Updates" TLS 1.2 RFC.)
>>
>
>
> The intent is that these affect old TLS 1.2 implementations as well. S 1.4
> tries
> to be clear about this, but maybe it fails.
>
> I suggest we:
>
> (1) Add the following sentence to the abstract:
> "This document also specifies new requirements for TLS 1.2 implementations.
>
> (2) Rewrite the first sentence of S 1.4 to say:
>This document defines several changes that optionally affect
>implementations of TLS 1.2, including those which do not also
>support TLS 1.3
>
> (3) Strike the following graf:
>
>An implementation of TLS 1.3 that also supports TLS 1.2 might need to
>include changes to support these changes even when TLS 1.3 is not in
>use.  See the referenced sections for more details.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> --
>> COMMENT:
>> --
>>
>> 1) On page 47:
>>  The length of the salt MUST be equal to the length of the digest
>> algorithm
>>
>> Length of algorithm?
>>
>
> Right. Output of.
>
>
>
>>
>> 2) DER need a Normative Reference on first use. There are some references
>> on
>> 2nd/3rd use.
>>
>
> Thanks.
>

I just double-checked and this actually is: under ECDSA.


>
>
>>
>> 3) On page 57:
>>
>>The
>>server then ignores early data by attempting to decrypt received
>>records in the handshake traffic keys until it is able to receive
>>the client's second flight and complete an ordinary 1-RTT
>>handshake, skipping records that fail to decrypt, up to the
>>configured max_early_data_size.
>>
>> I read this several times and still don't understand what this is saying.
>> It is
>> saying "ignores ... until it is able to receive". I think you either
>> don't mean
>> "ignore" (as in discard the rest) or I misunderstood. I clarifying
>> example or a
>> reference to another section (e.g. with the diagram) would be very
>> helpful here.
>>
>
> We do mean discard. The idea here is that you try to decrypt those records
> using the handshake keys and if that fails you ignore them.
>
>
>> 4) On page 82:
>>
>>When record protection has not yet been engaged, TLSPlaintext
>> structures
>>are written directly onto the wire.  Once record  protection has
>> started,
>>TLSPlaintext records are protected and sent   as described in the
>> following
>>section
>>
>> Just to double check: are you saying that before the 

Re: [TLS] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-tls-tls13-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

[Eric Rescorla]

On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 7:27 AM, Alexey Melnikov 
wrote:

> Hi Ekr,
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2018, at 2:16 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 5:29 AM, Alexey Melnikov 
> wrote:
>
> Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-tls-tls13-26: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-tls13/
>
>
>
> --
> DISCUSS:
> --
>
> Thank you for a well written document. I will be switching to Yes once the
> following is addressed/discussed:
>
> Relationship to TLS 1.2 needs to be clarified. The document is adding
> requirements on TLS 1.2 clients. Implementors of TLS 1.2 are not going to
> (or
> very unlikely to) read this document. This looks fishy to me. Two examples
> on
> page 37:
>
>   TLS 1.2 clients SHOULD also check that the last eight bytes  are not
> equal to
>   the second value if the ServerHello indicates TLS  1.1 or below
>
> and
>
>  A legacy TLS client performing renegotiation with TLS 1.2 or prior  and
> which
>  receives a TLS 1.3 ServerHello during renegotiation MUST  abort the
> handshake
>  with a "protocol_version" alert.  Note that  renegotiation is not possible
>  when TLS 1.3 has been negotiated.
>
> There are similar statements on page 45:
>
>   TLS 1.2 implementations SHOULD also process this extension.
>
> and on page 48:
>
>   However, the old semantics did not constrain the signing
>   curve.  If TLS 1.2 is negotiated, implementations MUST be prepared
>   to accept a signature that uses any curve that they advertised in
>   the "supported_groups" extension.
>
> I think you need to clarify whether these normative requirements apply to
> pure
> TLS 1.2 clients or TLS clients that implement both 1.2 and 1.3 and choose
> to
> use 1.2 for some reason. Or maybe you need to say in the
> Abstract/Introduction
> that although this document obsoletes TLS 1.2 it also specifies new
> requirements on TLS 1.2 implementations. (So it is sort of both
> "Obsoletes" and
> "Updates" TLS 1.2 RFC.)
>
>
>
> The intent is that these affect old TLS 1.2 implementations as well. S 1.4
> tries
> to be clear about this, but maybe it fails.
>
> I suggest we:
>
> (1) Add the following sentence to the abstract:
> "This document also specifies new requirements for TLS 1.2 implementations.
>
> (2) Rewrite the first sentence of S 1.4 to say:
>This document defines several changes that optionally affect
>implementations of TLS 1.2, including those which do not also
>support TLS 1.3
>
> (3) Strike the following graf:
>
>An implementation of TLS 1.3 that also supports TLS 1.2 might need to
>include changes to support these changes even when TLS 1.3 is not in
>use.  See the referenced sections for more details.
>
> I think this will address my concern.
>
>
>
> --
> COMMENT:
> --
>
> 1) On page 47:
>  The length of the salt MUST be equal to the length of the digest
> algorithm
>
> Length of algorithm?
>
>
> Right. Output of.
>
>
>
>
> 2) DER need a Normative Reference on first use. There are some references
> on
> 2nd/3rd use.
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> 3) On page 57:
>
>The
>server then ignores early data by attempting to decrypt received
>records in the handshake traffic keys until it is able to receive
>the client's second flight and complete an ordinary 1-RTT
>handshake, skipping records that fail to decrypt, up to the
>configured max_early_data_size.
>
> I read this several times and still don't understand what this is saying.
> It is
> saying "ignores ... until it is able to receive". I think you either don't
> mean
> "ignore" (as in discard the rest) or I misunderstood. I clarifying example
> or a
> reference to another section (e.g. with the diagram) would be very helpful
> here.
>
>
> We do mean discard. The idea here is that you try to decrypt those records
> using the handshake keys and if that fails you ignore them.
>
>
> Ok. So I suggest use "discard" and possibly delete or reword the "untill
> it is able" part. Maybe split into 2 sentences?
>

Sure, I can do something here.

>
>
>
> 4) On page 82:
>
>When record protection has not yet been engaged, TLSPlaintext
> structures
>are written directly onto the wire.  Once record  protection has
> started,
>TLSPlaintext records are protected and 

Re: [TLS] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-tls-tls13-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

[Alexey Melnikov]

Hi Ekr,

On Wed, Mar 7, 2018, at 2:16 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> 
> 
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 5:29 AM, Alexey Melnikov
>  wrote:>> Alexey Melnikov has entered the following 
> ballot position for
>>  draft-ietf-tls-tls13-26: Discuss
>> 
>>  When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply
>>  to all>>  email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to
>>  cut this>>  introductory paragraph, however.)
>> 
>> 
>>  Please refer to
>>  https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html>>  for more 
>> information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>> 
>> 
>>  The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:>> 
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-tls13/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>>  -->>  DISCUSS:
>>  
>>  -->> 
>>  Thank you for a well written document. I will be switching to Yes
>>  once the>>  following is addressed/discussed:
>> 
>>  Relationship to TLS 1.2 needs to be clarified. The document is
>>  adding>>  requirements on TLS 1.2 clients. Implementors of TLS 1.2 are not
>>  going to (or>>  very unlikely to) read this document. This looks fishy to 
>> me. Two
>>  examples on>>  page 37:
>> 
>>TLS 1.2 clients SHOULD also check that the last eight bytes  are
>>not equal to>>the second value if the ServerHello indicates TLS  1.1 
>> or below
>> 
>>  and
>> 
>>   A legacy TLS client performing renegotiation with TLS 1.2 or prior
>>   and which>>   receives a TLS 1.3 ServerHello during renegotiation MUST  
>> abort the
>>   handshake>>   with a "protocol_version" alert.  Note that  renegotiation 
>> is not
>>   possible>>   when TLS 1.3 has been negotiated.
>> 
>>  There are similar statements on page 45:
>> 
>>TLS 1.2 implementations SHOULD also process this extension.
>> 
>>  and on page 48:
>> 
>>However, the old semantics did not constrain the signing
>>curve.  If TLS 1.2 is negotiated, implementations MUST be prepared>>
>> to accept a signature that uses any curve that they advertised in>>the 
>> "supported_groups" extension.
>> 
>>  I think you need to clarify whether these normative requirements
>>  apply to pure>>  TLS 1.2 clients or TLS clients that implement both 1.2 and 
>> 1.3 and
>>  choose to>>  use 1.2 for some reason. Or maybe you need to say in the
>>  Abstract/Introduction>>  that although this document obsoletes TLS 1.2 it 
>> also specifies new>>  requirements on TLS 1.2 implementations. (So it is 
>> sort of both
>>  "Obsoletes" and>>  "Updates" TLS 1.2 RFC.)
> 
> 
> The intent is that these affect old TLS 1.2 implementations as well. S
> 1.4 tries> to be clear about this, but maybe it fails.
> 
> I suggest we:
> 
> (1) Add the following sentence to the abstract:
> "This document also specifies new requirements for TLS 1.2
> implementations.> 
> (2) Rewrite the first sentence of S 1.4 to say:
>This document defines several changes that optionally affect
>implementations of TLS 1.2, including those which do not also
>support TLS 1.3
> 
> (3) Strike the following graf:
> 
>An implementation of TLS 1.3 that also supports TLS 1.2 might
>need to>include changes to support these changes even when TLS 1.3 is
>not in>use.  See the referenced sections for more details.
I think this will address my concern.

>   
>> ---
>> --->>  COMMENT:
>>  
>>  -->> 
>>  1) On page 47:
>>   The length of the salt MUST be equal to the length of the digest
>>   algorithm>> 
>>  Length of algorithm?
> 
> Right. Output of.
> 
>  
>> 
>> 2) DER need a Normative Reference on first use. There are some
>>references on>>  2nd/3rd use.
> 
> Thanks.
>  
>> 
>> 3) On page 57:
>> 
>> The
>> server then ignores early data by attempting to decrypt received>> 
>> records in the handshake traffic keys until it is able to receive>> the 
>> client's second flight and complete an ordinary 1-RTT
>> handshake, skipping records that fail to decrypt, up to the
>> configured max_early_data_size.
>> 
>>  I read this several times and still don't understand what this is
>>  saying. It is>>  saying "ignores ... until it is able to receive". I think 
>> you either
>>  don't mean>>  "ignore" (as in discard the rest) or I misunderstood. I 
>> clarifying
>>  example or a>>  reference to another section (e.g. with the diagram) would 
>> be very
>>  helpful here.> 
> We do mean discard. The idea here is that you try to decrypt
> those records> using the handshake keys and if that fails you ignore them.

Ok. So I suggest use "discard" and possibly delete or reword the "untill
it is able" part. Maybe split into 2 sentences?
> 
>> 
>> 4) On page 82:
>> 
>> When record protection has not yet been 

Re: [TLS] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-tls-tls13-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

[Eric Rescorla]

On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 5:29 AM, Alexey Melnikov 
wrote:

> Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-tls-tls13-26: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-tls13/
>
>
>
> --
> DISCUSS:
> --
>
> Thank you for a well written document. I will be switching to Yes once the
> following is addressed/discussed:
>
> Relationship to TLS 1.2 needs to be clarified. The document is adding
> requirements on TLS 1.2 clients. Implementors of TLS 1.2 are not going to
> (or
> very unlikely to) read this document. This looks fishy to me. Two examples
> on
> page 37:
>
>   TLS 1.2 clients SHOULD also check that the last eight bytes  are not
> equal to
>   the second value if the ServerHello indicates TLS  1.1 or below
>
> and
>
>  A legacy TLS client performing renegotiation with TLS 1.2 or prior  and
> which
>  receives a TLS 1.3 ServerHello during renegotiation MUST  abort the
> handshake
>  with a "protocol_version" alert.  Note that  renegotiation is not possible
>  when TLS 1.3 has been negotiated.
>
> There are similar statements on page 45:
>
>   TLS 1.2 implementations SHOULD also process this extension.
>
> and on page 48:
>
>   However, the old semantics did not constrain the signing
>   curve.  If TLS 1.2 is negotiated, implementations MUST be prepared
>   to accept a signature that uses any curve that they advertised in
>   the "supported_groups" extension.
>
> I think you need to clarify whether these normative requirements apply to
> pure
> TLS 1.2 clients or TLS clients that implement both 1.2 and 1.3 and choose
> to
> use 1.2 for some reason. Or maybe you need to say in the
> Abstract/Introduction
> that although this document obsoletes TLS 1.2 it also specifies new
> requirements on TLS 1.2 implementations. (So it is sort of both
> "Obsoletes" and
> "Updates" TLS 1.2 RFC.)
>


The intent is that these affect old TLS 1.2 implementations as well. S 1.4
tries
to be clear about this, but maybe it fails.

I suggest we:

(1) Add the following sentence to the abstract:
"This document also specifies new requirements for TLS 1.2 implementations.

(2) Rewrite the first sentence of S 1.4 to say:
   This document defines several changes that optionally affect
   implementations of TLS 1.2, including those which do not also
   support TLS 1.3

(3) Strike the following graf:

   An implementation of TLS 1.3 that also supports TLS 1.2 might need to
   include changes to support these changes even when TLS 1.3 is not in
   use.  See the referenced sections for more details.




>
> --
> COMMENT:
> --
>
> 1) On page 47:
>  The length of the salt MUST be equal to the length of the digest
> algorithm
>
> Length of algorithm?
>

Right. Output of.



>
> 2) DER need a Normative Reference on first use. There are some references
> on
> 2nd/3rd use.
>

Thanks.


>
> 3) On page 57:
>
>The
>server then ignores early data by attempting to decrypt received
>records in the handshake traffic keys until it is able to receive
>the client's second flight and complete an ordinary 1-RTT
>handshake, skipping records that fail to decrypt, up to the
>configured max_early_data_size.
>
> I read this several times and still don't understand what this is saying.
> It is
> saying "ignores ... until it is able to receive". I think you either don't
> mean
> "ignore" (as in discard the rest) or I misunderstood. I clarifying example
> or a
> reference to another section (e.g. with the diagram) would be very helpful
> here.
>

We do mean discard. The idea here is that you try to decrypt those records
using the handshake keys and if that fails you ignore them.


> 4) On page 82:
>
>When record protection has not yet been engaged, TLSPlaintext
> structures
>are written directly onto the wire.  Once record  protection has
> started,
>TLSPlaintext records are protected and sent   as described in the
> following
>section
>
> Just to double check: are you saying that before the handshake TLS
> application
> layer effectively results in plain text messages (with some extra octets to
> signal record type)?
>

No, you can't write application data prior to this point, as stated in S 2.

   Application data MUST NOT be sent prior to sending the Finished
   message and until the record layer 

[TLS] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-tls-tls13-26: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

[Alexey Melnikov]

Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-tls-tls13-26: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-tls13/



--
DISCUSS:
--

Thank you for a well written document. I will be switching to Yes once the
following is addressed/discussed:

Relationship to TLS 1.2 needs to be clarified. The document is adding
requirements on TLS 1.2 clients. Implementors of TLS 1.2 are not going to (or
very unlikely to) read this document. This looks fishy to me. Two examples on
page 37:

  TLS 1.2 clients SHOULD also check that the last eight bytes  are not equal to
  the second value if the ServerHello indicates TLS  1.1 or below

and

 A legacy TLS client performing renegotiation with TLS 1.2 or prior  and which
 receives a TLS 1.3 ServerHello during renegotiation MUST  abort the handshake
 with a "protocol_version" alert.  Note that  renegotiation is not possible
 when TLS 1.3 has been negotiated.

There are similar statements on page 45:

  TLS 1.2 implementations SHOULD also process this extension.

and on page 48:

  However, the old semantics did not constrain the signing
  curve.  If TLS 1.2 is negotiated, implementations MUST be prepared
  to accept a signature that uses any curve that they advertised in
  the "supported_groups" extension.

I think you need to clarify whether these normative requirements apply to pure
TLS 1.2 clients or TLS clients that implement both 1.2 and 1.3 and choose to
use 1.2 for some reason. Or maybe you need to say in the Abstract/Introduction
that although this document obsoletes TLS 1.2 it also specifies new
requirements on TLS 1.2 implementations. (So it is sort of both "Obsoletes" and
"Updates" TLS 1.2 RFC.)


--
COMMENT:
--

1) On page 47:
 The length of the salt MUST be equal to the length of the digest  algorithm

Length of algorithm?

2) DER need a Normative Reference on first use. There are some references on
2nd/3rd use.

3) On page 57:

   The
   server then ignores early data by attempting to decrypt received
   records in the handshake traffic keys until it is able to receive
   the client's second flight and complete an ordinary 1-RTT
   handshake, skipping records that fail to decrypt, up to the
   configured max_early_data_size.

I read this several times and still don't understand what this is saying. It is
saying "ignores ... until it is able to receive". I think you either don't mean
"ignore" (as in discard the rest) or I misunderstood. I clarifying example or a
reference to another section (e.g. with the diagram) would be very helpful here.

4) On page 82:

   When record protection has not yet been engaged, TLSPlaintext  structures
   are written directly onto the wire.  Once record  protection has started,
   TLSPlaintext records are protected and sent   as described in the following
   section

Just to double check: are you saying that before the handshake TLS application
layer effectively results in plain text messages (with some extra octets to
signal record type)?

5) I am pretty sure that [RFC5116] is a Normative reference. It is required to
be understood to implemented TLS 1.3. Also, you have additional requirements on
AEADs, which again implies understanding of what they are:

On page 84:

   An AEAD algorithm used in TLS 1.3 MUST NOT produce an expansion  greater
   than 255 octets

and

   An AEAD algorithm where N_MAX is less than 8  bytes MUST NOT be used with TLS

6) The diagram in section 7.1 was a bit cryptic. Maybe explain that when you
use '0' you mean as many bytes of 0s as needed for various functions.


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