RE: HA tomcat ( was: RE: 5.0 proposal)
Thanks for the encouraged news. We've been using Tomcat in our product for a while now. Now, I need to set it up with support for minimum 100K simultaneous connection to our server side. 100K simultaneous connection ! I doubt any hardware/software/os (even on high system) could handle that. And no mather if the server code is in native or in java. May be you was thinking 100K by days ? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: HA tomcat ( was: RE: 5.0 proposal)
Although Pier is sometimes harsh with his words he does have some valid points. I would be nice for tomcat to be somewhat modular so if all you want is a servlet engine just get those components. This also goes with moving the CVS repositories.. so you can get only the modules you want and build the parts of tomcat that you need with out all the overhead. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 1:07 PM To: Tomcat Developers List Subject: HA tomcat ( was: RE: 5.0 proposal) On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, GOMEZ Henri wrote: Pier could you detail what should be a Tomcat HA, and how it could fit in TC 5.0 proposal ? As far as I can remember it was voted -1... What about TC 5.0 with HA capability ? TC5.0 will have a 'higher availability' then 4.1 which is better than 4.0. Same goes for 3.3 versus 3.2, and so on. rant -stop reading if you're not interested in flames -- I am trying as hard as possible to remain calm and on the subject when discussing with 'angry' Pier - but the FUD he is using is unbelievable. He can't use tomcat4.0 in production ? Maybe he's trying to do that with mod_webapp ( with no load balancing AFAIK, and 'auto configuration' ). And he complains about features - well, Apache is full of features, and most people know how to not enable the modules that they don't need on a production site. Now he proposes a HA tomcat - as if all our efforts in so far has been in adding useless features and nobody else cares about HA. Well, if you would pay attention a lot of work is beeing put in improving the lb ( an essential factor for HA ), in adding management ( guess what - JMX is not only for configuration, but also for getting runtime info and notifications ), and in improving the low-level objects to beter deal with the load ( that's coyote ) plus for 5.0 a simpler core that would allow more modularity ( coyote again ). And the solution he proposes: removing 'useless' features like jasper or JMX. Well, I know quite a few people who managed to get tomcat in production on a variety of sites ( including very large loads). Even with tomcat3.2 - a generation behind the current 3.3 and 4.0. They do that using load balancing and customizing the installation. Unfortunately Pier's tomcat4.0 doesn't support load balancing, and it seems he's having problems with the admin module of 4.1. Well, send a patch - or just disable the offending module in your code. Tomcat out-of-box is feature full and more intended for developers ( who greatly outnumber the 'production sites'). If you read the 5.0 proposal, it allows ( or includes ) the ability to release customized tomcats. Of course, nobody stops Pier on working on whatever he wants - a -1 means he can't do it in the main branch and he can't use the name 'tomcat', but the proposal/ area has allwasy been open. If he can get a 'higher availability' than we'll get with 5.0 - great, we'll all be happy. But now Pier treatens he'll just leave us oprhapns ( without a father). I certainly hope he's not serious with that, and if he does - I hope he'll return. And in the meantime he may try to learn to be a bit more polite and modest - and control his frustrations. /rant Costin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: HA tomcat ( was: RE: 5.0 proposal)
On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, John Trollinger wrote: Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:19:40 -0400 From: John Trollinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Tomcat Developers List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Tomcat Developers List' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: HA tomcat ( was: RE: 5.0 proposal) Although Pier is sometimes harsh with his words he does have some valid points. I would be nice for tomcat to be somewhat modular so if all you want is a servlet engine just get those components. I'd say both the 3.3 and 4.0/4.1 architectures are already pretty modular -- is there something specific that you consider monolithic that should be factored apart? Or is it just that finer-grained build.xml targets would do what you want? This also goes with moving the CVS repositories.. so you can get only the modules you want and build the parts of tomcat that you need with out all the overhead. The Apache infrastructure folks (well, at least some of them) tend to frown on multiple CVS repositories for a single project, and they've got a point -- the number of CVS repositories has nothing to do with how many deliverable distributions you can create from them. For example, the jakarta-commons and jakarta-taglibs repositories each host lots of independently released packages, while a single Tomcat release combines code from 5-10 independent repositories. Craig -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 1:07 PM To: Tomcat Developers List Subject: HA tomcat ( was: RE: 5.0 proposal) On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, GOMEZ Henri wrote: Pier could you detail what should be a Tomcat HA, and how it could fit in TC 5.0 proposal ? As far as I can remember it was voted -1... What about TC 5.0 with HA capability ? TC5.0 will have a 'higher availability' then 4.1 which is better than 4.0. Same goes for 3.3 versus 3.2, and so on. rant -stop reading if you're not interested in flames -- I am trying as hard as possible to remain calm and on the subject when discussing with 'angry' Pier - but the FUD he is using is unbelievable. He can't use tomcat4.0 in production ? Maybe he's trying to do that with mod_webapp ( with no load balancing AFAIK, and 'auto configuration' ). And he complains about features - well, Apache is full of features, and most people know how to not enable the modules that they don't need on a production site. Now he proposes a HA tomcat - as if all our efforts in so far has been in adding useless features and nobody else cares about HA. Well, if you would pay attention a lot of work is beeing put in improving the lb ( an essential factor for HA ), in adding management ( guess what - JMX is not only for configuration, but also for getting runtime info and notifications ), and in improving the low-level objects to beter deal with the load ( that's coyote ) plus for 5.0 a simpler core that would allow more modularity ( coyote again ). And the solution he proposes: removing 'useless' features like jasper or JMX. Well, I know quite a few people who managed to get tomcat in production on a variety of sites ( including very large loads). Even with tomcat3.2 - a generation behind the current 3.3 and 4.0. They do that using load balancing and customizing the installation. Unfortunately Pier's tomcat4.0 doesn't support load balancing, and it seems he's having problems with the admin module of 4.1. Well, send a patch - or just disable the offending module in your code. Tomcat out-of-box is feature full and more intended for developers ( who greatly outnumber the 'production sites'). If you read the 5.0 proposal, it allows ( or includes ) the ability to release customized tomcats. Of course, nobody stops Pier on working on whatever he wants - a -1 means he can't do it in the main branch and he can't use the name 'tomcat', but the proposal/ area has allwasy been open. If he can get a 'higher availability' than we'll get with 5.0 - great, we'll all be happy. But now Pier treatens he'll just leave us oprhapns ( without a father). I certainly hope he's not serious with that, and if he does - I hope he'll return. And in the meantime he may try to learn to be a bit more polite and modest - and control his frustrations. /rant Costin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: HA tomcat ( was: RE: 5.0 proposal)
On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, John Trollinger wrote: Although Pier is sometimes harsh with his words he does have some valid points. I would be nice for tomcat to be somewhat modular so if all you want is a servlet engine just get those components. This also goes with moving the CVS repositories.. so you can get only the modules you want and build the parts of tomcat that you need with out all the overhead. I run tomcat on my sharp Zaurus, using a J2ME VM - it's the developer edition, with about 16M heap ( out of 32 M RAM ). The whole installation is below 1.5M ( well, with crimson.jar taking a lot of space - but it can be replaced with a smaller parser ). I agree it is a bit bloated, and I hope 5.0 will fit in 512K. If people are too lazy to remove the stuff they don't need on a production site - we could easily provide a 'tomcat lazy edition'. Since most users are lazy developers, that's what the default release includes. Are you enabling all the modules that comes with Apache by default ? Or maybe all the possible modules ( mod_auth_ldap, mod_dav, etc ) ? Do you see any apache distribution that includes just part of the code, with the modules that Pier doesn't use left out ? Costin -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 1:07 PM To: Tomcat Developers List Subject: HA tomcat ( was: RE: 5.0 proposal) On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, GOMEZ Henri wrote: Pier could you detail what should be a Tomcat HA, and how it could fit in TC 5.0 proposal ? As far as I can remember it was voted -1... What about TC 5.0 with HA capability ? TC5.0 will have a 'higher availability' then 4.1 which is better than 4.0. Same goes for 3.3 versus 3.2, and so on. rant -stop reading if you're not interested in flames -- I am trying as hard as possible to remain calm and on the subject when discussing with 'angry' Pier - but the FUD he is using is unbelievable. He can't use tomcat4.0 in production ? Maybe he's trying to do that with mod_webapp ( with no load balancing AFAIK, and 'auto configuration' ). And he complains about features - well, Apache is full of features, and most people know how to not enable the modules that they don't need on a production site. Now he proposes a HA tomcat - as if all our efforts in so far has been in adding useless features and nobody else cares about HA. Well, if you would pay attention a lot of work is beeing put in improving the lb ( an essential factor for HA ), in adding management ( guess what - JMX is not only for configuration, but also for getting runtime info and notifications ), and in improving the low-level objects to beter deal with the load ( that's coyote ) plus for 5.0 a simpler core that would allow more modularity ( coyote again ). And the solution he proposes: removing 'useless' features like jasper or JMX. Well, I know quite a few people who managed to get tomcat in production on a variety of sites ( including very large loads). Even with tomcat3.2 - a generation behind the current 3.3 and 4.0. They do that using load balancing and customizing the installation. Unfortunately Pier's tomcat4.0 doesn't support load balancing, and it seems he's having problems with the admin module of 4.1. Well, send a patch - or just disable the offending module in your code. Tomcat out-of-box is feature full and more intended for developers ( who greatly outnumber the 'production sites'). If you read the 5.0 proposal, it allows ( or includes ) the ability to release customized tomcats. Of course, nobody stops Pier on working on whatever he wants - a -1 means he can't do it in the main branch and he can't use the name 'tomcat', but the proposal/ area has allwasy been open. If he can get a 'higher availability' than we'll get with 5.0 - great, we'll all be happy. But now Pier treatens he'll just leave us oprhapns ( without a father). I certainly hope he's not serious with that, and if he does - I hope he'll return. And in the meantime he may try to learn to be a bit more polite and modest - and control his frustrations. /rant Costin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: HA tomcat ( was: RE: 5.0 proposal)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, GOMEZ Henri wrote: Pier could you detail what should be a Tomcat HA, and how it could fit in TC 5.0 proposal ? As far as I can remember it was voted -1... What about TC 5.0 with HA capability ? TC5.0 will have a 'higher availability' then 4.1 which is better than 4.0. Same goes for 3.3 versus 3.2, and so on. rant -stop reading if you're not interested in flames -- I am trying as hard as possible to remain calm and on the subject when discussing with 'angry' Pier - but the FUD he is using is unbelievable. He can't use tomcat4.0 in production ? Maybe he's trying to do that with mod_webapp ( with no load balancing AFAIK, and 'auto configuration' ). And he complains about features - well, Apache is full of features, and most people know how to not enable the modules that they don't need on a production site. Now he proposes a HA tomcat - as if all our efforts in so far has been in adding useless features and nobody else cares about HA. Well, if you would pay attention a lot of work is beeing put in improving the lb ( an essential factor for HA ), in adding management ( guess what - JMX is not only for configuration, but also for getting runtime info and notifications ), and in improving the low-level objects to beter deal with the load ( that's coyote ) plus for 5.0 a simpler core that would allow more modularity ( coyote again ). And the solution he proposes: removing 'useless' features like jasper or JMX. Well, I know quite a few people who managed to get tomcat in production on a variety of sites ( including very large loads). Even with tomcat3.2 - a generation behind the current 3.3 and 4.0. They do that using load balancing and customizing the installation. Unfortunately Pier's tomcat4.0 doesn't support load balancing, and it seems he's having problems with the admin module of 4.1. Well, send a patch - or just disable the offending module in your code. Tomcat out-of-box is feature full and more intended for developers ( who greatly outnumber the 'production sites'). If you read the 5.0 proposal, it allows ( or includes ) the ability to release customized tomcats. Of course, nobody stops Pier on working on whatever he wants - a -1 means he can't do it in the main branch and he can't use the name 'tomcat', but the proposal/ area has allwasy been open. If he can get a 'higher availability' than we'll get with 5.0 - great, we'll all be happy. But now Pier treatens he'll just leave us oprhapns ( without a father). I certainly hope he's not serious with that, and if he does - I hope he'll return. And in the meantime he may try to learn to be a bit more polite and modest - and control his frustrations. /rant Even omitting personal comments from the rant (which I have to admit I share), you did a sooo impressive work on improving Tomcat HA-level during the 3.0-3.1-3.2-3.3 releases that I definitely trust you to help take Tomcat 5.0 to the next HA-level. On a side note, it would be really nice if Tomcat developers could STOP writing blanket FUD-style statements about whatever module / the container / etc when they didn't even care to review the code. Remy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: HA tomcat ( was: RE: 5.0 proposal)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, GOMEZ Henri wrote: Pier could you detail what should be a Tomcat HA, and how it could fit in TC 5.0 proposal ? As far as I can remember it was voted -1... What about TC 5.0 with HA capability ? TC5.0 will have a 'higher availability' then 4.1 which is better than 4.0. Same goes for 3.3 versus 3.2, and so on. [snip] Well, I know quite a few people who managed to get tomcat in production on a variety of sites ( including very large loads). I run Tomcat on 20 or so production web sites, with volumes in the 2/3 million hits per day mark. I've been running Tomcat since march 2000, starting with 3.2.1. I think with a little of involvment it is easy to set up a high availability environment using Apache/Tomcat and maybe hardware load balancers. Maybe what is missing is a good tutorial on such a setup. Maybe I could start thinking about writing something about our setup. We came up with neat tricks to handle live application upgrade and this sort of things. I don't know where this could fit in but it is definitely the kind of HOWTO that could be good for the spread of Tomcat on production environments. As for the pure servlet speed Tomcat can deliver, from what I see everyday, the bottleneck is usually in the data tier and not in the application server, so this is a purely sterile debate in my opinion. Just my 2 cents of euro worth. Mathias. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: HA tomcat ( was: RE: 5.0 proposal)
Mathias, Thanks for the encouraged news. We've been using Tomcat in our product for a while now. Now, I need to set it up with support for minimum 100K simultaneous connection to our server side. If you could share some of your knowledge how you did it with your site, it would be tremendously helpful for me and many other Tomcat user out there. Regards, Huy Tran. Mathias Herberts wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, GOMEZ Henri wrote: Pier could you detail what should be a Tomcat HA, and how it could fit in TC 5.0 proposal ? As far as I can remember it was voted -1... What about TC 5.0 with HA capability ? TC5.0 will have a 'higher availability' then 4.1 which is better than 4.0. Same goes for 3.3 versus 3.2, and so on. [snip] Well, I know quite a few people who managed to get tomcat in production on a variety of sites ( including very large loads). I run Tomcat on 20 or so production web sites, with volumes in the 2/3 million hits per day mark. I've been running Tomcat since march 2000, starting with 3.2.1. I think with a little of involvment it is easy to set up a high availability environment using Apache/Tomcat and maybe hardware load balancers. Maybe what is missing is a good tutorial on such a setup. Maybe I could start thinking about writing something about our setup. We came up with neat tricks to handle live application upgrade and this sort of things. I don't know where this could fit in but it is definitely the kind of HOWTO that could be good for the spread of Tomcat on production environments. As for the pure servlet speed Tomcat can deliver, from what I see everyday, the bottleneck is usually in the data tier and not in the application server, so this is a purely sterile debate in my opinion. Just my 2 cents of euro worth. Mathias. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: HA tomcat ( was: RE: 5.0 proposal)
On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Huy Tran wrote: Mathias, Thanks for the encouraged news. We've been using Tomcat in our product for a while now. Now, I need to set it up with support for minimum 100K simultaneous connection to our server side. If you could share some of your knowledge how you did it with your site, it would be tremendously helpful for me and many other Tomcat user out there. 100k simultaneous connections ??? Well, that's a lot. Depending on the request and hardware, you could run 1-200 RPS on one tomcat - but you would need a pretty large farm to load balance 100.000. I would use few hardware load balancers, and several apache boxes in front of the farm. Hopefully not all of the requests will be for dynamic content - so you may be able to handle it. But I've never seen 100.000 concurent users ( well, google probably has more - and is certainly not impossible - but it'll take some work ) Costin Regards, Huy Tran. Mathias Herberts wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, GOMEZ Henri wrote: Pier could you detail what should be a Tomcat HA, and how it could fit in TC 5.0 proposal ? As far as I can remember it was voted -1... What about TC 5.0 with HA capability ? TC5.0 will have a 'higher availability' then 4.1 which is better than 4.0. Same goes for 3.3 versus 3.2, and so on. [snip] Well, I know quite a few people who managed to get tomcat in production on a variety of sites ( including very large loads). I run Tomcat on 20 or so production web sites, with volumes in the 2/3 million hits per day mark. I've been running Tomcat since march 2000, starting with 3.2.1. I think with a little of involvment it is easy to set up a high availability environment using Apache/Tomcat and maybe hardware load balancers. Maybe what is missing is a good tutorial on such a setup. Maybe I could start thinking about writing something about our setup. We came up with neat tricks to handle live application upgrade and this sort of things. I don't know where this could fit in but it is definitely the kind of HOWTO that could be good for the spread of Tomcat on production environments. As for the pure servlet speed Tomcat can deliver, from what I see everyday, the bottleneck is usually in the data tier and not in the application server, so this is a purely sterile debate in my opinion. Just my 2 cents of euro worth. Mathias. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: HA tomcat ( was: RE: 5.0 proposal)
Mathias, It would be great to see some details on your experiences with load-balancing Tomcat, and any tricks you've come up with would be much appreciated by the community (well, at least my part of it ;) We also run Tomcat 4.0 in production, behind a hardware load balancer. It's working great thus far, but we don't have nearly the traffic to require even the setup we have now, so I can't contribute an aweful lot except to say 'works-for-me' Aaron Dunlop -Original Message- From: Mathias Herberts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:23 AM To: Tomcat Developers List Subject: Re: HA tomcat ( was: RE: 5.0 proposal) [snip] Well, I know quite a few people who managed to get tomcat in production on a variety of sites ( including very large loads). I run Tomcat on 20 or so production web sites, with volumes in the 2/3 million hits per day mark. I've been running Tomcat since march 2000, starting with 3.2.1. I think with a little of involvment it is easy to set up a high availability environment using Apache/Tomcat and maybe hardware load balancers. Maybe what is missing is a good tutorial on such a setup. Maybe I could start thinking about writing something about our setup. We came up with neat tricks to handle live application upgrade and this sort of things. I don't know where this could fit in but it is definitely the kind of HOWTO that could be good for the spread of Tomcat on production environments. As for the pure servlet speed Tomcat can deliver, from what I see everyday, the bottleneck is usually in the data tier and not in the application server, so this is a purely sterile debate in my opinion. Just my 2 cents of euro worth. Mathias. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: HA tomcat ( was: RE: 5.0 proposal)
Dunlop, Aaron wrote: Mathias, It would be great to see some details on your experiences with load-balancing Tomcat, and any tricks you've come up with would be much appreciated by the community (well, at least my part of it ;) We also run Tomcat 4.0 in production, behind a hardware load balancer. It's working great thus far, but we don't have nearly the traffic to require even the setup we have now, so I can't contribute an aweful lot except to say 'works-for-me' There's a link on that on the site: http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/resources.html Remy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
