[OT] Re: Tomcat mailing list is full of non tomcat topics
What I mean is that since, as somebody reminded, some of the users make confusion about what is tomcat and what is not, why don't we help them ? An idea, seen somewhere else, could be to post on a regular basic a short mailing list faq. Some days ago we had a 20 post about how to convert a char to an intvery legitimate question but very OT. I know that you can't kill a user for writing such questions/answers, but it they were just reminded, from time to time... I think that educating the list users is a duty of the mailing list itself. /roberto -- Roberto Cosenza Infoflex Connect AB, Sweden Tel: +46-(0)8-55576860, Fax: +46-(0)8-55576861 -- Nordic Messaging Technologies is a trademark of Infoflex Connect. Please visit www.nordicmessaging.se for more information about our carrier-grade messaging products. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Re: Tomcat mailing list is full of non tomcat topics
Some days ago we had a 20 post about how to convert a char to an intvery legitimate question but very OT. And marked as such. Quote: sorry for posting this offtopic qns here And the subject: off topic - how do i convert an int to char Doug - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Re: Tomcat mailing list is full of non tomcat topics
On Thu, Dec 09, 2004 at 09:31:41AM +0100, Roberto Cosenza wrote: : What I mean is that since, as somebody reminded, some of the users make : confusion about what is tomcat and what is not, why don't we help them ? : An idea, seen somewhere else, could be to post on a regular basic a : short mailing list faq. Yours isn't a bad idea, it just requires new posters to 1/ check the archives and/or be on the list long enough to see the reminder post; or 2/ actually care about list etiquette. It's like those posters that remind people not to be rude with their cellphones in public places: the offenders hardly recognize themselves, so the posters are a waste. =) -QM -- software -- http://www.brandxdev.net tech news -- http://www.RoarNetworX.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Re: Tomcat mailing list is full of non tomcat topics
It's like those posters that remind people not to be rude with their cellphones in public places: the offenders hardly recognize themselves, so the posters are a waste. =) -QM That's a risk, but there is people who care but just needs to be informed -- Roberto Cosenza Infoflex Connect AB, Sweden Tel: +46-(0)8-55576860, Fax: +46-(0)8-55576861 -- Nordic Messaging Technologies is a trademark of Infoflex Connect. Please visit www.nordicmessaging.se for more information about our carrier-grade messaging products. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Re: Tomcat mailing list is full of non tomcat topics
On Thu, Dec 09, 2004 at 01:28:37PM +0100, Roberto Cosenza wrote: : That's a risk, but there is people who care but just needs to be informed You're welcome to get started. =) There's nothing to stop you from doing this post. Who knows, perhaps it will have an effect? In my experience (I've seen this done before) it doesn't help, but perhaps this time it'll be different. -QM -- software -- http://www.brandxdev.net tech news -- http://www.RoarNetworX.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] Re: Tomcat mailing list is full of non tomcat topics
And enjoyable reading for me. The fact is no one forces you to read an OT topic. I don't have time for more than one or two lists so my reading is pretty focused, sometimes moreso than I'd like. Sometimes reading an OT topic on Tomcat is a refreshing change from the normal questions. I don't think it's all that hard to just ignore properly marked OT topics if you're not interested. -Original Message- From: Parsons Technical Services To: Tomcat Users List Sent: 12/9/2004 7:16 AM Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Tomcat mailing list is full of non tomcat topics Some days ago we had a 20 post about how to convert a char to an intvery legitimate question but very OT. And marked as such. Quote: sorry for posting this offtopic qns here And the subject: off topic - how do i convert an int to char Doug - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tomcat mailing list is full of non tomcat topics
Hi, Roberto, Understanding a problem before solving it is good policy, I think. If the problem is noise (and I don't thnk so) on the list, then maybe the following would be helpful. These attempts at monitoring the hallways are seemingly always the longest threads. I also don't believe the 30% figure. That does not come close to what I see. I would be surprised if that were not greatly inflated. I would like to see a percentage determination of the percentage of posts which are about the list and about other peoples' questions. I would bet that is fairly large. If we want to shorten lists, I would encourage people to give better information on their questions and to ask people to think about their answers. A quick perusal of the lists shows me that this is the biggest inflator of the list. Even the present question or statement is not going to end up with a thing happening. That is almost guaranteed. If real answers were given to real questions, presumably there would be many two email exchanges. These are not, I think, the norm. Anyway, if noise is a problem, then an analysis would be the way to go. What do you think? This is just my take, and I am probably full of monkey doo. Jack On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 22:44:11 +0100, Roberto Cosenza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi cats worldover. It's been a while that I've reading the posts on this mailing list and I can easily say that about 30% are not pertinent to tomcat but are related to web technology in general. Isn't it time to route this traffic to other mailing lists? Can't the tomcat project host new list for those users lookin for other kind of help? It will sure enhance the quality of the list a lot. /Roberto -- You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep. ~Native Proverb~ Each man is good in His sight. It is not necessary for eagles to be crows. ~Hunkesni (Sitting Bull), Hunkpapa Sioux~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tomcat mailing list is full of non tomcat topics
The first thing I do when someone starts a thread about list noise is to run that persons name through my gmail search engine and see what their posts are like. I always find this to be revealing. Indeed, I run my own name through and get equally embarrassed about what an ass I can be. If we take an objective look at what expands traffic, both through sins of commission and omission, I think we will get surprising results. I have a suggestion that we expand the areas of non-Tomcat to the following: [OT] -- Off Topic [SA] -- Smart Ass threads with self-congratulatory replies to other peoples' questions which really are not meant to help as much as to deride. [HM] -- Hallway Monitor threads about the list and other people. Until people get used to these, the user should put in the Subject the explanation, e.g. [HM] -- Hallway Monitor -- blah blah. If this were done we could read less than 50% of the posts. Seriously, however, if we all look at our posts and see how helpful they are and how likely they are to contribute or to make worse list noise, I think that we would all be better off. Jack On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 22:44:11 +0100, Roberto Cosenza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi cats worldover. It's been a while that I've reading the posts on this mailing list and I can easily say that about 30% are not pertinent to tomcat but are related to web technology in general. Isn't it time to route this traffic to other mailing lists? Can't the tomcat project host new list for those users lookin for other kind of help? It will sure enhance the quality of the list a lot. /Roberto -- You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep. ~Native Proverb~ Each man is good in His sight. It is not necessary for eagles to be crows. ~Hunkesni (Sitting Bull), Hunkpapa Sioux~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tomcat mailing list is full of non tomcat topics
Hi cats worldover. It's been a while that I've reading the posts on this mailing list and I can easily say that about 30% are not pertinent to tomcat but are related to web technology in general. Isn't it time to route this traffic to other mailing lists? Can't the tomcat project host new list for those users lookin for other kind of help? It will sure enhance the quality of the list a lot. /Roberto
RE: Tomcat mailing list is full of non tomcat topics
From: Roberto Cosenza [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Tomcat mailing list is full of non tomcat topics Isn't it time to route this traffic to other mailing lists? Are you volunteering to be the policeman? Believe me, moderating any mailing list is a thankless task. Been there, done that, burned the t-shirt, won't ever consider it again. The subjects of nearly all of the off-topic posts already have appropriate mailing lists (not necessarily within Apache), but the posters frequently just don't know how to look for them. - Chuck THIS COMMUNICATION MAY CONTAIN CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR OTHERWISE PROPRIETARY MATERIAL and is thus for use only by the intended recipient. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the e-mail and its attachments from all computers. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tomcat mailing list is full of non tomcat topics
I'm not talking about moderating but about informing the users that this is not the right place. Many important (and related) question do not get enough attention in this sea of messages. /rob - Original Message - From: Caldarale, Charles R [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 10:57 PM Subject: RE: Tomcat mailing list is full of non tomcat topics From: Roberto Cosenza [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Tomcat mailing list is full of non tomcat topics Isn't it time to route this traffic to other mailing lists? Are you volunteering to be the policeman? Believe me, moderating any mailing list is a thankless task. Been there, done that, burned the t-shirt, won't ever consider it again. The subjects of nearly all of the off-topic posts already have appropriate mailing lists (not necessarily within Apache), but the posters frequently just don't know how to look for them. - Chuck THIS COMMUNICATION MAY CONTAIN CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR OTHERWISE PROPRIETARY MATERIAL and is thus for use only by the intended recipient. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the e-mail and its attachments from all computers. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tomcat mailing list is full of non tomcat topics
From: Roberto Cosenza [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not talking about moderating but about informing the users that this is not the right place. Many important (and related) question do not get enough attention in this sea of messages. How do you know that's not happening? I often reply privately to off-topic messages, stating that I'm replying off the list because the subject is not appropriate for this list, and pointing them to the right list or to the answer if I happen to know it. I gather this means you've asked a question that didn't get answered... http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html -- Wendy Smoak - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tomcat mailing list is full of non tomcat topics
On Wed, Dec 08, 2004 at 11:41:28PM +0100, Roberto Cosenza wrote: : Many important (and related) question do not get enough attention in this : sea of messages. Get enough attention? Please explain. As someone who answers to questions now and then (I used to respond more often ;) I'll tell you, I take a question when I can (have the knowledge) and want (I feel like it) to do so. The number of off-topic posts have nothing to do with my ability to answer other questions. -QM -- software -- http://www.brandxdev.net tech news -- http://www.RoarNetworX.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] Re: Tomcat mailing list is full of non tomcat topics
On Wed, 2004-12-08 at 17:41, Roberto Cosenza wrote: I'm not talking about moderating but about informing the users that this is not the right place. Many important (and related) question do not get enough attention in this sea of messages. /rob I think this page: http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html does that. Specifically here: Join the lists that are appropriate for your discussion. Please make sure that you are joining the list that is appropriate for the topic or product that you would like to discuss. For example, please do not join the Regexp mailing list and ask questions about Tomcat. Instead, you should join the Tomcat User list and ask your questions there. And here: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html It is also customary on this list, as it is on others, to begin the subject of your post with [OT] or [OFF TOPIC] for threads, like this one, that don't deal directly with Tomcat issues. This allows people who don't want to wade through off topic discussions to skip right by them. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Re: Tomcat mailing list is full of non tomcat topics
Personally, it seems like truly off-topic messages get tagged pretty quickly on this list. I think that's a reasonable solution to handle this problem. As for the *root* of the problem, the VAST majority of questions come from novice users who, predictably, don't know the difference between a Tomcat question and Servlet/JSP question. For most people, there *is* no difference. From that standpoint, it's artificial to say that some questions are Tomcat ones and others aren't -- they are all Tomcat-related and, as such, I feel like this is an appropriate place to address them. IMHO, asking a novice user to take it elsewhere would be a fairly cruel thing to do to an already confused and potentially frustrated user. That said, lengthly threads that banter about the merits of various JSRs and specs clearly don't belong here and should either be relocated or (more likely), marked OT. justin At 06:56 PM 12/8/2004, you wrote: On Wed, 2004-12-08 at 17:41, Roberto Cosenza wrote: I'm not talking about moderating but about informing the users that this is not the right place. Many important (and related) question do not get enough attention in this sea of messages. /rob I think this page: http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html does that. Specifically here: Join the lists that are appropriate for your discussion. Please make sure that you are joining the list that is appropriate for the topic or product that you would like to discuss. For example, please do not join the Regexp mailing list and ask questions about Tomcat. Instead, you should join the Tomcat User list and ask your questions there. And here: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html It is also customary on this list, as it is on others, to begin the subject of your post with [OT] or [OFF TOPIC] for threads, like this one, that don't deal directly with Tomcat issues. This allows people who don't want to wade through off topic discussions to skip right by them. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Justin Ruthenbeck Lead Software Engineer, NextEngine Inc. justinr - AT - nextengine DOT com Confidential. See: http://www.nextengine.com/confidentiality.php __ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Re: Tomcat mailing list is full of non tomcat topics
That said, lengthly threads that banter about the merits of various JSRs and specs clearly don't belong here and should either be relocated or (more likely), marked OT. Where Tomcat is used as the reference implementation for the Servlet and JSP specs, and where the mission of the Tomcat development team is to deliver a 100% spec compliant Servlet/JSP container, I think it would be pretty difficult to make a case for calling such discussions off-topic. Another good reason for quoting the specs, chapter and verse, is that the tomcat documentation, for the most part, doesn't repeat what's in them. Therefore, the best place to look, when you want to find out why Tomcat (or any other spec compliant container for that matter) behaves the way it does, is the specs. I thought your other points were very valid. -Ben - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Re: Tomcat mailing list is full of non tomcat topics
And then there are the cases that would be deemed OT only to end up as a full blown Tomcat discussion. Some guy asked a question about IIS and at first it's OT. But after a few exchanges the solution is Tomcat. So even if the person is OT sometimes the answer is Tomcat. Doug - Original Message - From: Ben Souther [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 10:41 PM Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Tomcat mailing list is full of non tomcat topics That said, lengthly threads that banter about the merits of various JSRs and specs clearly don't belong here and should either be relocated or (more likely), marked OT. Where Tomcat is used as the reference implementation for the Servlet and JSP specs, and where the mission of the Tomcat development team is to deliver a 100% spec compliant Servlet/JSP container, I think it would be pretty difficult to make a case for calling such discussions off-topic. Another good reason for quoting the specs, chapter and verse, is that the tomcat documentation, for the most part, doesn't repeat what's in them. Therefore, the best place to look, when you want to find out why Tomcat (or any other spec compliant container for that matter) behaves the way it does, is the specs. I thought your other points were very valid. -Ben - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
