Moisture can adversely affect a BOGs performance. BOGs work best in arid
climates...so if you see me running around with a Ladies Heat Gun
(hair dryer) in the middle of the night
Lee KX4TT
-Original Message-
From: Topband
One excellent RX antenna that has not been mentioned here yet is the
rotatable Waller Flag, which JC, N4IS has written much about both on this
reflector and his website (Google is your friend). This works on small lots.
IIRC, it has the same RDF as a 580' Beverage, but is a mere 40' long. JC
has
I plan to lay down a BOG that is approx 600’. I realize the ideal length for a
160 BOG is about 200’. But I also enjoy BCB DX so a longer one will work better
for that.
Should I also use the 600’ BOG for 160 or lay down a separate shorter one for
160? I would run parallel approx 2-3 feet
Joe, ~200' is what most folks report as being a good BOG length on 160. The
close proximity to the earth requires a shorter length due to the reduced
VF.
http://www.w0btu.com/Beverage_antennas.html#Beverage_On_the_Ground
has a little BOG info. But the best source of info can only be found by
Hi All,
The results of CQ 160m 2019 have been published and I'm happy to report
that I won the SO LP Category in the CW leg.
My story with 160 started with the 3V3S (2009) activity I conducted with
a German team who put up a ground plane for 160 on the roof of 3V8SS
shack. The antenna was
Hi,
I don't have room for a 160 meter BOG here.I have been thinking of
experimenting some wire on the ground at least for 80, 40, maybe 30
meters. I can only get by deploying at night and rolling them up when I
QRT. Anything above toe and ankle height but lower than head height
would
I’ve got an unterminated 300’ foot beverage about 36” high.
WorkS GREAT so I respectfully disagree with the implication a beverage much
shorter than 1-2 wavelengths means you should use something else.
I’ve got multiple rx antennas and that short beverage is the best one,on
average, in its
I previously had 4 Beverages with 3 of them being about 300’ They definitely
worked! However, the 650’ was better… On my new property, I hope to compare
Beverages, SAL-30 and an 8 circle. First, I have to get it cleared and fenced…
Sigh!
Chuck W5PR
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From:
On 8/1/2019 1:27 PM, James Wolf wrote:
I think there is some misunderstanding of bandwidth using FT-8.
The power limited Shannon limit I posted about today is
independent of equivalent noise bandwidth
The equivalent noise bandwidth of an FT8 detected tone is only 6.25 Hz. So
-26 dB
Agreed Chuck,
I maybe read David's post differently than he meant it to read also.
This progression from TX antennas to loops to Beverages to 8 circle arrays
is exactly how Hi-Z began. It is because the 8 circle is head and shoulders
above all other choices at this location that Hi-Z
You might want to listen to this TAPR presentation on Noise and Noise
calculations.
https://youtu.be/xXXj1Ko4ZXg
I found it pretty interesting.
Mike va3mw
On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 2:12 PM uy0zg wrote:
> Is the main problem here in efficiency?
>
> The main thing here - the signal is not heard
Do either JT9 or FT8 *really* need a wide SSB filter? What happens if we
use a good narrow CW filter instead?
73, Mike
www.w0btu.com
On Thu, Aug 1, 2019, 2:03 PM K4SAV wrote:
> W0BTU directed a question to me about JT-9. I have never tested JT-9 so
> I don't have any information to supply on
I’m not arguing the point that longer is better to a point. I’m limited to
300’. I’d love it it I could extend to 400’ 500’ or longer. But I can’t.
I’m just saying, well, what I said.
73,
Bob. AA6VB
Robert L. Chortek
On Aug 1, 2019, at 12:59 PM, Chuck Dietz
mailto:w5prch...@gmail.com>>
If anybody's interested in trying my version of the python FT8 decoder with
a more sensible SNR
implementation just go here: https://github.com/mcogoni/weakmon
I modified the code to look for the lowest power bin within the input
bandwidth and each
individual signal is compared to this.
To obtain
I'm not sure how FT-8 calculates the reported S/N number. I found very
little information on the subject and what I did find was not easily
understandable. What I did was an experiment in which I was able to get
close to the same number being reported. According to what I have read
about
I didn't realize we were talking specifically about 160 meter DXCC listings
(though this IS the Topband reflector, hi hi).
Still, to get the countries that it takes to get high up on the 160 meter DXCC
list will take a serious station and a lot of skill (of a different sort than
CW, but skill
Isn't BOG still a beverage just with more ground coupling loss because its
literally "on the ground"? So the typical answer on beverages seems to be
that 4 - 10 ft above the ground is low enough to eliminate the undesired
noise but high enough to reduce the losses from being too low to the
Joe,
For a simple Beverage, you just point the antenna (unfed end) at the target.
For length, "longer is better" is approximately true, but the ideal lengths are
about 1 to 2 wavelengths. Much longer than that, and phased shorter Beverages
work better. Much shorter than that, and you might
It is instructive to calculate the Shannon
maximum theoretical data rate (power limited case)
(refer to wikipedia page for Shannon-Hartley theorem).
If S/N ratio (BW=2,500 Hz) = -24 dB,
then S/N ratio (BW=1Hz) = -24 + 10 log 2,500 = -24 +34
= +10 dB. 10 dB converted to a dimensionless ratio is
On 8/1/2019 12:36 PM, Mark K3MSB wrote:
I’ve used BOGs and RBOGs at 200 feet length laying on the ground. The
BOG worked great, the RBOG worked good, but not as good as the BOG.
I agree with K3MSB's conclusions about BOGs. I have also done a lot of
experimenting with reversible BOGs and
beverages have always fascinated me. But I have never had the property
to have one.
I might now, BUT, how do you know how long and what direction to lay it
out to maximize signal to the desired direction?
I assume the longer it is, the higher gain it has and more towards the
ends the lobe
Paul,
the higher the wire, the more output of the antenna, but all other
paramters changes as well. I can say definitely that a unidirectional
BOG with 270ft works ways better than a beverage with the same size (abt
Lambda/2 on 160m) My BOGs have the W7IUV Preamp, works fine.
73!
Am 01.08.2019
W0BTU directed a question to me about JT-9. I have never tested JT-9 so
I don't have any information to supply on that subject.
The S/N number supplied by FT-8 was only a curiosity to me because I
could see a huge disparity between what was being reported versus what I
was observing on my
Lee,
It definitely isn’t arid round here.
Paul
On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 at 20:00, Lee. KX4TT via Topband
wrote:
> Moisture can adversely affect a BOGs performance. BOGs work best in arid
> climates...so if you see me running around with a Ladies Heat
> Gun (hair dryer) in the middle of
Thanks Drew,
I thought for some reason it was behaving like a dipole. At short
lengths more boradside to the antenna and as it gets longer the lobe
gets smaller and more pointing towards the end of the wire.
Now, a BOG.
if you do NOT terminate it, does it behave like a Rohmbic where it's Bi
I put up an SAL-30 as well because it fit the space I had. Used it two
seasons...tried several minor changes but it never performed as advertised at
my site. Sold it to some contest station out west.
Cecil
K5DL
Sent from my iPad
> On Aug 1, 2019, at 1:32 PM, Lee STRAHAN wrote:
>
> Agreed
For ARRL non-members, who will not be able to access the
article "Rotten Damped Spark Stuff" behind the pay wall,
a Google search (www.startpage.com) on that phrase
produced exactly one relevant hit:
http://w2pa.net/HRH/spark-to-cw/
It's actually a pretty good summary of the beginnings of
the
I reached the same pivot point that Jeff did this year but choose the other
path. I have left DXing from a band perspective. FT8 is not enjoyable to
me and doing something not enjoyable to build totals is not a good use of
time for me. I am looking for 9BWAZ and ATNO counters on modes now only.
Interesting reading, this proves to me beyond dough at least some cw
operators feel
they are superior and any other means of communication is below them.
I passed the cw test here in 1976 but rarely us it , might try to work
the odd
Dxpedition . It doesn’t help when they wont slow down for
That is absolutely so.
I have been using BOG's for years, running them in and out on the neighbor
farmer's field, until a friend of mine told me that I really must raise the
wire.
Having done so during the last winter, with kind permission from the farmer, I
can tell you that Chuck is spot on.
Reading all these replies makes me think that the intent of my post might have
been somewhat misinterpreted. My post was not intended to be a scientific
analysis of only RDF or performance in rating or ranking various antennas. It
was, however, intended to introduce possibly significant (in
Andy is right: FT8 should in a separate category.
Especially, when we consider the "dirty little secret": Increasingly, a
number of ops are using fully automated FT8 stations. Most of the time they
are not even in the shack while their automated FT8 stations are making
QSO-s.
Whether we agree
I wasn’t intending to slight what you said either, I do think I misinterpreted
it though. At this moment, the SAL-30 is certainly my best receive antenna as
well. I would not enjoy working 160/80 meters without it.
Chuck W5PR
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Rodman, David
Sent: Thursday,
In my humble opinion, FT8 should have nothing to do with the competitors of
DXCC Mix, CW, SSB or RTTY. RTTY emission was killed in short wavelengths,
expeditions in the increasing percentage use FT8 as the basic emission and
this is not due to the lack of propagation. I think, the issue of FT8
Yes the ARRL needs to step up.
Years ago there were foot races, then after the invention of the
bicycle races between them were common. After the automobile was
invented they raced. No one seriously thought of foot racing
(competing) against a bicycle or automobile.
ARRL DXCC competition bands
It already has them. Mixed is mixed (all modes including FT8, RTTY, SSB, AM,
CW, etc), CW is CW, Phone is AM, SSB and FM, Digital is all digital machine
modes (RTTY, FT8/4, JT65 etc).
So if you are offended that DXCC is being "degraded" by FT8 contacts, just
look/compare at the CW and SSB
Here’s where the DXCC standings are listed
http://www.arrl.org/dxcc-standings
Can you please show me where 160M CW is?
73 Mark K3MSB
On Thu, Aug 1, 2019, 9:35 AM wrote:
> It already has them. Mixed is mixed (all modes including FT8, RTTY, SSB,
> AM, CW, etc), CW is CW, Phone is AM, SSB
This is possibly a more complicated subject than just performance. I gave a
lecture on this topic, comparing a Hi-Z circle 8, SAL-20, SAL-30, beverage
(unidirectional and bidirectional and BOG) and the K9AY array.
In this talk, I considered performance as a factor, but also considered
Just a ‘simple’ question hopefully - How close to the ground should a BOG
be for best/good performance?
I am looking for any additional info that I can get to supplement what I
have found online already so good on the balun, wire type and termination
resistor.
My single unterminated beverage I
I get the feeling that I must be the only person that has ever tested
FT-8 to the extreme to see what it can do. It seems that everyone else
just assumes it will do what the published information says. It will
not. Below is a summary of my testing.
First I did a bunch of testing to see if I
Hi Andy and Nick
This has been asked to arrl, BUT you only get a very unfriendly answer.
Take it or leave,,,They don’t want to lan to this arguments
That solution had made all difference in the amateur group, for sure
Kind regards
Hans sm6cvx
> 1 aug 2019 kl. 14:53 skrev uy0zg :
>
>
Hi Bruce and gang,
I don't think we should think of DXCC as a competition, but rather personal
goals since everyone's station is totally different including location.
Nevertheless I too believe FT8 should be a separate category, and I feel
David (K3KY) has made the strongest case I have ever
Hi Andy Hi All
Absolutely simple and correct.
Why don't ARRL leaders understand this?
It is not possible to equate the results of a robot operator with the
results of a human operator.
For FT8, there should only be a separate category for DXCC.
---
Nick, UY0ZG
http://www.topband.in.ua
Very interesting. How does JT9 compare, especially in regards to the noise
floor issue that Mark raised?
73, Mike
www.w0btu.com
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Hi,
I agree with Jerry. I spent a few weeks trying to use FT8 to obtain
antenna radiation patterns and I discovered how the SNR is computed:
it's totally flawed. Basically WSJTX computes the number in two steps:
the first one estimates how strong the adjacent frequency bins are with
respect
I meant Jerry, not Mark. Sorry.
On Thu, Aug 1, 2019, 10:15 AM Mike Waters wrote:
> Very interesting. How does JT9 compare, especially in regards to the noise
> floor issue that Mark raised?
>
> 73, Mike
> www.w0btu.com
>
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Good morning
Do we know if the SNR is calculated over the RF passband filter width, or
is is calculated over AF filter bandwidth in the WSJTx engine, which it
knows? There is a big difference.
Mike va3mw
On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 11:09 AM Marco Cogoni wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I agree with Jerry. I
When I tried a BOG compared to a Beverage, I found the BOG to be almost
useless compared to the Beverage. I would put up one of the arrays K9AY,
SAL-30, 4sq rec, etc.
I don't think you will be happy with a BOG after using a Beverage.
Chuck W5PR
On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 12:08 PM Paul Mclaren
It's hard to beat the Hi-Z arrays when you have limited space..
73,
John, W4NU
On 8/1/2019 1:23 PM, Chuck Dietz wrote:
When I tried a BOG compared to a Beverage, I found the BOG to be almost
useless compared to the Beverage. I would put up one of the arrays K9AY,
SAL-30, 4sq rec, etc.
I don't
Chuck,
I don’t have any directivity at the moment so I am hoping that I will gain
that over the current situation. Time will tell I suppose.
I can really do anything too visible like a K9AY etc as it isn’t my land
just a space borrowed over the quieter months.
Regards
Paul MM0ZBH
On Thu, 1
Some folks don't have room for a 580' Beverage. BOGs are easy to install,
but I have never heard of anyone who raved about their performance. :-)
How long was your BOG, what type of ground was it over, and how high was
it?
If you search the archives for the three keywords K2AV BOG DOG, there is
I’ve used BOGs and RBOGs at 200 feet length laying on the ground. The
BOG worked great, the RBOG worked good, but not as good as the BOG.
Others tried them in my local area based upon my experiences and said they
didn’t work at all.
This is typical of people that have used / tried BOGs.
I used 8 foot ground rods for the BOG and 4 foot ground rods for the
RBOG.
Mark K3MSB
On Thu, Aug 1, 2019, 1:36 PM Mark K3MSB wrote:
> I’ve used BOGs and RBOGs at 200 feet length laying on the ground. The
> BOG worked great, the RBOG worked good, but not as good as the BOG.
>
> Others
Your results of the order of performance of these antennas are somewhat
different than other, published results. I wonder if the composition of
your ground would have something to do with that? Good or poor soil? Also,
how long was the Beverage?
I have a SAL-30, which is by far my best receive
We went thorugh a similar discussion here a year ago about the "cooked" S/N
statistics. Or at least they are cooked in a way that no CW operator would
cook them, by considering a bandwidth 50 times wider than the FT8 signal.
On a quiet WARC FT8 band (no interfering carriers) signals that are -18dB
I have very good experiences with terminated BOGs as well. I have three
of them. On 160m I can hear from VE6 to VP9, ZS, ZL, VK, UA0, JA. But as
mentioned before, you have to try different lengths - some work fine,
some doesnt. My east BOG is very good in contrast to my west BOG which
is so la
Doesn't "BOG" mean, Beverage On Ground? If so, isn't the answer, "on the
ground"?
Wes N7WS
On 8/1/2019 10:08 AM, Paul Mclaren wrote:
Just a ‘simple’ question hopefully - How close to the ground should a BOG
be for best/good performance?
I am looking for any additional info that I can get
Hi Wes,
That's what I thought too. But what di I know. I also wonder who is
buried in Grant's tomb.
73,
Bill KU8H
On 8/1/19 2:01 PM, Wes wrote:
Doesn't "BOG" mean, Beverage On Ground? If so, isn't the answer, "on
the ground"?
Wes N7WS
On 8/1/2019 10:08 AM, Paul Mclaren wrote:
Just a
Thanks so far, interesting that it doesn’t always work well for everyone.
I am working on a compromise here so any result is a bit of a gain.
Don’t worry I get the ON the ground part, just looking for practical advice
does that mean insulation of the wire touching for the whole run or
slightly
Is the main problem here in efficiency?
The main thing here - the signal is not heard by a person!
---
Nick, UY0ZG
http://www.topband.in.ua
Tim Shoppa 2019-08-01 20:40:
The "work signals way down in the noise you could never work otherwise"
myth, is just part of the myth that FT8 is an
Hi Wes,
Yes, that's what it means. :-) But at my QTH, a BOG would have to lie on
the pasture grass, a couple of inches from the soil.
73, Mike
www.w0btu.com
On Thu, Aug 1, 2019, 1:01 PM Wes wrote:
> Doesn't "BOG" mean, Beverage On Ground? If so, isn't the answer, "on the
> ground"?
>
> Wes
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