Re: Topband: FT8.

[Grant Saviers]

10/25/2017 20:15 PM, JC wrote:

  there is no human intervention on FT8 after the
first click.
Not in my experience with FT8.  Crowded bands, DX with poor ears, 
callers on the DX frequency all make it a challenge for other than the 
casual CQ response.  The GUI is hard to use when the list completely 
repopulates every cycle.  Some sort of filtering is needed.  Many ops 
don't know how to use split or are confused by it.  RR73 is in RC2 but 
rarely used and if I do it causes 90% of the other stations to loop on 
replies.  And there is strategy just like chasing any DX.  This season 
will be interesting as a couple of big time expeditions may try it.  
That will be a learning experience at both ends of the Q and plenty of 
chaos.


With success also comes problems.  No big time DXpedition will fit in 
2.5KHz of WW callers.


As a new mode in gestation it is terrific and fun, a lot more than 
JT65.  I worked at least 25 band-mode fills with the prop forecast 
absolutely dead for 17, 15, 12 and even 10m in three days last week from 
WA, home of the "suffering sevens".  Zero SSB/CW propagation on those 
bands when East Coast stations have solid copy.


If you don't like it QSY.  New technologies create new opportunities and 
experiences. Maye even for youth addicted to point and click. For those 
who spent 40 years to get to Honor Roll, they may disagree.  I know at 
73 years and a cold start chasing DX 5 years ago it is impossible for me 
to get there in this lifetime, but I can have a lot more fun with FT8 in 
the mix with SSB and RTTY.   Maybe I'll even work on my CW skills.


Grant KZ1W


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Re: Topband: FT8.

[W0MU Mike Fatchett]

You can start a CQ and the program will work someone if they call with 
no user intervention but then it stops.



On 10/25/2017 9:59 PM, Gary Smith wrote:

I used RC2 and now, RC3 and there's no way
in this software to make FT8 QSO's
automatically. I don't get why so many
people think it is a QSO machine that you
let it go and it finds and makes QSO's for
you. That's just not true, it does not do
that.

73,
Gary, KA1J


On 10/25/2017 6:57 PM, DXer wrote:

Try leaving FT8 unattended, and see how many QSOs it makes by
itself?

73 de Vince, VA3VF
_

I've unsubscribed but the WSJT-X Yahoo group can be searched for a
thread where a guy said he went off to the kitchen and came back to
find he'd "worked" someone.  He said also that because he wasn't in
the shack, he wasn't going to QSL.  I asked, why not, the other guy
didn't know you were in the kitchen?

So, yes, RC1 will make automatic QSOs.  And if you don't complete,
you can always use text messaging via JTAlert.

N7WS
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Re: Topband: K2AV Counterpoise

[W0MU Mike Fatchett]

I have read in a couple of articles that the radials need only be as 
long at the vertical element as well.  I think W9UCW was one of the 
authors.  It is all magic.


W0MU


On 10/25/2017 9:49 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
I posted what I would, and am doing.  I subscribe to the idea that the 
radials should be about the length of the vertical as a minimum and 
using my friend, N7CL's rule of thumb, their number should be enough 
to keep the tips no further apart than 0.015 lambda.


On, or in, the ground radials are much longer electrically than they 
are physically because the Vp is much reduced.  How much so, who 
knows?  Put in enough and resonance doesn't really matter. See 
Devouldere.


Wes  N7WS


On 10/25/2017 7:46 PM, Michael Walker wrote:

Explain why more radials over the counter poise.

I'm hearing that 1/4 wave radials are actually too long and shorter 
raises the feedpoint.


Mike va3mw




On Oct 25, 2017, at 5:26 PM, Wes Stewart  wrote:

I would forget the counterpoise and add more ground radials.

See https://www.w8ji.com/counterpoise_systems.htm

Wes  N7WS



On 10/25/2017 7:38 AM, James Denneny wrote:
I am constructing the K2AV FCP Counterpoise  for my TB inverted L 
antenna.  I live on a small lakeside lot.


Should I disconnect the few ground radials when I install the FCP 
or leave them connected?  Would both together degrade performance?


Jim K7EG

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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Re: Topband: FT8.

[Gary Smith]

I used RC2 and now, RC3 and there's no way 
in this software to make FT8 QSO's 
automatically. I don't get why so many 
people think it is a QSO machine that you 
let it go and it finds and makes QSO's for 
you. That's just not true, it does not do 
that.

73,
Gary, KA1J

> On 10/25/2017 6:57 PM, DXer wrote:
> >
> > Try leaving FT8 unattended, and see how many QSOs it makes by
> > itself?
> >
> > 73 de Vince, VA3VF
> > _ 
> I've unsubscribed but the WSJT-X Yahoo group can be searched for a
> thread where a guy said he went off to the kitchen and came back to
> find he'd "worked" someone.  He said also that because he wasn't in
> the shack, he wasn't going to QSL.  I asked, why not, the other guy
> didn't know you were in the kitchen?
> 
> So, yes, RC1 will make automatic QSOs.  And if you don't complete,
> you can always use text messaging via JTAlert.
> 
> N7WS
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband



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Re: Topband: K2AV Counterpoise

[Wes Stewart]

I posted what I would, and am doing.  I subscribe to the idea that the radials 
should be about the length of the vertical as a minimum and using my friend, 
N7CL's rule of thumb, their number should be enough to keep the tips no further 
apart than 0.015 lambda.


On, or in, the ground radials are much longer electrically than they are 
physically because the Vp is much reduced.  How much so, who knows?  Put in 
enough and resonance doesn't really matter. See Devouldere.


Wes  N7WS


On 10/25/2017 7:46 PM, Michael Walker wrote:

Explain why more radials over the counter poise.

I'm hearing that 1/4 wave radials are actually too long and shorter raises the 
feedpoint.

Mike va3mw




On Oct 25, 2017, at 5:26 PM, Wes Stewart  wrote:

I would forget the counterpoise and add more ground radials.

See https://www.w8ji.com/counterpoise_systems.htm

Wes  N7WS



On 10/25/2017 7:38 AM, James Denneny wrote:
I am constructing the K2AV FCP Counterpoise  for my TB inverted L antenna.  I 
live on a small lakeside lot.

Should I disconnect the few ground radials when I install the FCP or leave them 
connected?  Would both together degrade performance?

Jim K7EG

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

>From time to time, tickling the RBN nodes on 160 proves that the band is
open, sometimes nicely so. The almost constant FT8 signals nail it.

People get on the band when they think there will be someone to talk to,
this includes trying to get some elusive DX.

In the end FT8 will prove that the band is there. The extent to which the
band is actually open, by the constant FT8, will start to change people's
thought about when the bands are normally open, both time of day and
seasons.

The number of CW contest logs submitted to contest sponsors is going up.
This is decades after No Code. And it certainly seems like some ops are
learning their CW skills after they have been a ham for a while. People
have been saying that CW seemingly forever. I still love CW but truthfully
I can't argue that it isn't obsolete.

*** The question that doesn't get asked is whether CW is still FUN.***

If it's still fun, it ain't going away, including such as the thrill of
digging a rare one on CW out of the noise with your own brain and ears.

Anyone who was around when we lost 11 meters, knows that lack of activity
loses frequencies.

Bring it on.  Bring it all on. We'll figure it out just fine. There are
some really smart people in the ham ranks. We'll do OK

73, Guy K2AV

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:49 PM, Michael Walker 
wrote:

>
> Explain why on some nights there are many FT8 signals, and no CW signals.
> No one calling CQ and everyone just listening.
>
> If you build it they will come.
>
> Mike va3mw
> _
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Re: Topband: FT8.

[Wes Stewart]

On 10/25/2017 6:57 PM, DXer wrote:


Try leaving FT8 unattended, and see how many QSOs it makes by itself?

73 de Vince, VA3VF
_ 
I've unsubscribed but the WSJT-X Yahoo group can be searched for a thread where 
a guy said he went off to the kitchen and came back to find he'd "worked" 
someone.  He said also that because he wasn't in the shack, he wasn't going to 
QSL.  I asked, why not, the other guy didn't know you were in the kitchen?


So, yes, RC1 will make automatic QSOs.  And if you don't complete, you can 
always use text messaging via JTAlert.


N7WS
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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[CJ Johnson]

Read the full content of my message, specifically the portion where i said:

“One can on any given evening call CQ in the CW sub band and get picked up
by skimmers around the world, yet not get a reply”

73

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 9:49 PM Michael Walker  wrote:

>
> Explain why on some nights there are many FT8 signals, and no CW signals.
> No one calling CQ and everyone just listening.
>
> If you build it they will come.
>
> Mike va3mw
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
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Re: Topband: FT8.

[JC]

Hi Vince , just answering some of your questions for technical reasons, I
see all innovation as good for the hobby. 


>>1) How is computer to computer FT8 different from computer to computer
RTTY, a very popular mode among DXers and contesters?<<

FT8 you make a decision witch station you want to work, the handshake
between the 2 computers define when and witch radio needs to transmit what.
Eliminating operator timing errors starting transmit off sync on the right
time speed up the "QSO" ,  there is no human intervention on FT8 after the
first click. 
RTTY you need to read the screen, and decide how to click,  well ... no much
challenge too. I don't like RTTY either, I made only one QSO since 1969.

73's
JC
N4IS

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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Michael Walker]

Explain why on some nights there are many FT8 signals, and no CW signals.  No 
one calling CQ and everyone just listening.

If you build it they will come. 

Mike va3mw
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Re: Topband: K2AV Counterpoise

[Michael Walker]

Explain why more radials over the counter poise. 

I'm hearing that 1/4 wave radials are actually too long and shorter raises the 
feedpoint. 

Mike va3mw



> On Oct 25, 2017, at 5:26 PM, Wes Stewart  wrote:
> 
> I would forget the counterpoise and add more ground radials.
> 
> See https://www.w8ji.com/counterpoise_systems.htm
> 
> Wes  N7WS
> 
> 
>> On 10/25/2017 7:38 AM, James Denneny wrote:
>> I am constructing the K2AV FCP Counterpoise  for my TB inverted L antenna.  
>> I live on a small lakeside lot.
>> 
>> Should I disconnect the few ground radials when I install the FCP or leave 
>> them connected?  Would both together degrade performance?
>> 
>> Jim K7EG
>> 
>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>> 
>> _
>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>> 
> 
> _
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Re: Topband: FT8.

[DXer]

"What concerns me is the fact that the technical level of the new ham is
declining too fast. There is the feeling that "GOOGLE" can explain 
everything..."


That's an important point, but Google is not necessarily a bad thing, 
laziness is. The problem is that some people won't even put an effort 
into googling for an answer.


When FT8 RC2 came out, and depending on the version you were running 
before installing it, it was necessary to reset the frequency list, or 
it would be mangled.


I could not believe the number of people reporting this issue on the 
WSJT list, and asking for the solution, when all they had to do was read 
the previous messages. It had been asked, and answered, at least 10 or 
15 times in the previous 24 hours. The same thing was happening on eHam.


73 de Vince, VA3VF
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Re: Topband: FT8.

[DXer]

On 2017-10-25 10:08 PM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote:
>   It makes one contact maybe.

Correct... so what's the problem again about no human intervention? QSO 
machines?




I am sure that programs could be written or exist to make rtty contacts 
more automated.


W0MU


Yes, but it has not happened yet, on a large/noticeable scale. If and 
when that happens, I'll be the first to say FT8 zombie bots roaming the 
bands are bad .






On 10/25/2017 7:57 PM, DXer wrote:


That's one way to enjoy RTTY. Others use GRITTY.

Try leaving FT8 unattended, and see how many QSOs it makes by itself?

73 de Vince, VA3VF

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Re: Topband: Unfortunately I also feel that Ham radio is more or less lost.- Hans Hjelmstr?m

[Larry]

There was a time when SSB was considered evil.

73, Larry W6NWS


On 10/25/2017 4:23 PM, Bryon Paul Veal NØAH wrote:

RF/IP will save amateur radio.  It is a HUGE industry and is  growing by
leaps and bounds. School's are ridiculously slow in getting RF into
standard STEM curriculum but it will happen. Kids already use so many
wireless devices...compare and contrast what they use with what we have and
the light bulb turns on.

  As for digital, relax, all because you don't like it doesn't mean anything
to the hobby. 21st century technologies will naturally be what drives our
hobby, and that is mostly the digital modes.

Yes, there is a gap right now with youth and licensure, but it will close
soon enough.

  160M rocks, just be glad it has new energy with modes common with the
times.I just got my 160M DXCC, 92 CW, 6 PH, 2 JT65.  It has easy to
associate antennas and other components making RF a lot of fun to teach and
learn and apply to the MW and above stuff you can't see!

73

Paul. N0AH


Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com


On October 25, 2017 9:46:19 AM W0MU Mike Fatchett  wrote:


Ham radio is not dead.  It has been dying since I got into it.

1 - Fear of the FCC and loss of license is gone

This was a rarity anyway.  People are still losing their licenses and
the fines can be huge.

2 - Profanity and other on-air forms of civil disrespect abound

Society in general acts this way not just hams.  Hams are people too.

3 - 8 and 9-YO EXTRA Class ticket holders - Cracker-Jack-prize
ticket-holders

The tests have been made easier. Why does this matter?  My son who got
is tech at 13 could of had his extra by 15 but he got his general and
stopped.  He have very little interest in radio.  Some of it is because
of the nasty people he has heard and had to deal with, lousy conditions
and his free time is chewed up with fantasy football, Drones, gaming
etc.  There are so many more outlets for kids and young people today
than ever.

4 - Cell phone comms to anywhere in the world kills mystery of radio

What really has killed radio is the steep price to get in and dwindling
locations in which to do it.  To be competitive you must have a pretty
nice station.  That is a major turn off.  You can be a competitive gamer
with middle of the road computers.

5 - Examine QST's "The Doctor Is In" column and look at questions Extra's
are asking

People have been asking silly questions for years in that column.

6 - It appears today's kids are more interested in gaming as opposed to
things math/science
   they are just application-experts and have little or no understanding
of HOW a computer
   functions.(I have to admit my digital hardware skills are quite
lacking too.)

How many kids were interested in ham radio when you were growing up?  I
bet not many.  I went to a Junior high school and we had one teacher and
about 8 students interested in a school about about 300 people.  I bet
that percentage is off the charts high for interest in radio.  I just
happened to live in a very rural area with a bunch of hams around.

Those gamer kids probably know more about computer than most of us on
this list.  They know how to over clock and get the most out of their
rigs, etc.  Different skill sets.  They will be driving unmanned fighter
jets, drones, tanks and more and will do it far better than any of us.

How many hams can explain how their radios work.  Take a K3 or flex for
example.  I bet most hams would not be able to tell you how a modern rig
works.

7 - CC restrictions against antennas has crippled many op's driving them
to being
   repeater-band operators

Which is why FT8 and other modes like this and whatever is coming will
keep ham radio alive.

8 - Loss of CW as an entry-into-Ham-Radio-Filter has seriously dumbed-down
the technical
   side of Ham Radio

Wrong.  Dead wrong.  There are more people interested in CW now than
ever.  When you allow people to learn what they want instead of forcing
them down a path you get more out of them.   I can't tell you the number
of Parks on the air SSB or county hunter ops that have started to learn
CW because they want to make more contacts and have figured out CW is
better when condx suck.

9 - Repeater systems linked together by commercial fiber lines, etc.

Why is this bad?  Linking is good for statewide coverage, you get to
talk to more people and the systems are more robust and can handle
emergency and rescue ops better.


73 Dick/w7wkr at CN98pi and CN97uj
===
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:23:51 +0200
From: Hans Hjelmstr?m 
To: Steve Ireland , sm5...@ssa.se,  sm6cmU
  , topband@contesting.com
Cc: Kjell Nerlich , sm6...@ssa.se,Peter Andersson
  
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Message-ID: 

Re: Topband: FT8.

[W0MU Mike Fatchett]

 It makes one contact maybe.

There was a wideband RTTY option that was used by an I station where you 
essentially did the same thing as you do with FT8, pick a hole and dump 
your call the the program would decode the RTTY.


I am sure that programs could be written or exist to make rtty contacts 
more automated.


W0MU



On 10/25/2017 7:57 PM, DXer wrote:
"Additionally, traditional RTTY is still a "hear it" mode.   I 
actually listen to the tones and while obviously I can't decode them 
by ear, I can certainly tune them by ear.  Furthermore, MMTTY, which I 
use, decodes one signal at a time, the one I tune in and respond to. 
So, at least in my operation, I have to be there and actively engaged."


That's one way to enjoy RTTY. Others use GRITTY.

Try leaving FT8 unattended, and see how many QSOs it makes by itself?

73 de Vince, VA3VF
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Re: Topband: FT8.

[DXer]

Fundamentally speaking, radio is RF between two antennas. Whatever is 
'pumped' into the TX antenna and 'pulled' out of the RX antenna, is not 
radio, it's payload.


To say FT8 is not amateur radio is incorrect.

73 de Vince, VA3VF

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Re: Topband: FT8.

[DXer]

"Additionally, traditional RTTY is still a "hear it" mode.   I actually 
listen to the tones and while obviously I can't decode them by ear, I 
can certainly tune them by ear.  Furthermore, MMTTY, which I use, 
decodes one signal at a time, the one I tune in and respond to.  So, at 
least in my operation, I have to be there and actively engaged."


That's one way to enjoy RTTY. Others use GRITTY.

Try leaving FT8 unattended, and see how many QSOs it makes by itself?

73 de Vince, VA3VF
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Topband: FT8.

[DXer]

I'm very surprised by some of the comments here. I'm still going through 
the messages, but wanted to make a few comments already. In no 
particular order:


1) How is computer to computer FT8 different from computer to computer 
RTTY, a very popular mode among DXers and contesters?


2) CW and SSB has not been outlawed, please continue to use it.

3) For conversation only, nothing beats an unlimited cellphone plan.

4) Are you really saying that FT8 is doing less than SSB and CW in 
trying to keep the hobby alive?


5) How is FT8 point and click worse than DXCluster point and click, and 
a voice keyer screaming you last two? And in some cases the OP is not 
even hearing the DX?


6) Not everybody has the real estate, antenna, linear amplifiers, 
expensive transceivers that you may have access to. Modest stations, 20W 
out and a wire for an antenna, allow more people to have fun.


7) Are you really saying that every FT8 CQ call you make is answered by 
an ATNO, first call, no repeats, simplex? Where is the challenge?!


8) How is 3kHz (I know, 'officially' 2, but it's already moving up into 
the JT65 segment) killing the hobby?


9) Please quote the FCC rule making forcing you to use FT8 or cancel you 
ticket?


That said, FT8 is already falling victim of its own success. In my case, 
the number of incomplete QSOs is increasing, due to QRM caused by 'over 
population' in the FT8 segment.


This is all for now. Back to the messages for more 'inspiration'.

73 de Vince, VA3VF
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Re: Topband: Topband Digest, Vol 178, Issue 27

[Greg Chartrand via Topband]

>  You guys should have been around for the AM versus SSB discussions/wars 
>without the use of the instant >communication internet.
>Oh my,
>Lee  K7TJR

I was around and this discussion is real deja vu! 
At 70, I qualify as an old fart just like most of you but I don't think it fair 
for me to pass judgment on others who are not as fortunate as many of us have 
been in having locations that could accommodate 160 antennas. When your 
backyard is measured in ten's of feet and not tens of acres, compromise is the 
only alternative. Covenants and shrinking lot sizes make any 160 antennae 
difficult if not impossible.  Urban area hams have to also deal with the 
electronic noise of all their neighbors as well as their own.
Our urban ham brothers and sisters need all the help they can get just to make 
domestic contacts. I don't think it fair for me to pass judgment on a 
legitimate mode of operation that allows them to enjoy 160 as I have for over 
50 years almost exclusively using CW. 
I started using FT8 on 6 meters where most of my openings last only 2-3 
minutes. I have been able to find openings and complete many QSO's this year 
that never would have happened if I only operated CW and SSB. 
Stu W1BB had the attitude of; do whatever you have to to make the DX contacts. 
There is no doubt in my mind that he would be using JT9, FT8, spark or whatever 
it took to make new country contacts. I have always followed his advice and 
have used any tool available to work DX.

If you don't like FT8, don't use it but please don't disrespect or deny those 
who need it to enjoy operating top band.
Sincerely,GregW7MY


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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[CJ Johnson]

Steve, as a relatively “young” ham living in a populous area, I have some
things to offer to this thread...

To give you some background: I’m 36, been licensed since 1994. Did the
whole progression before code was eliminated all the way to Extra. Took
electronics classes in high school and when the instructor found out I was
a ham, instantly gave me more detailed and demanding assignments. That’s
all fun, I love CW as well but now, as a technologist, I love the fusion of
technology and radio. It makes it interesting.

I was at first skeptical of FT-8 on the HF bands after using it for 6M weak
signal stuff. That (in my mind) was the band for this type of stuff. I can
accept my line of thinking was wrong.

One can on any given evening call CQ in the CW sub band and get picked up
by skimmers around the world, yet not get a reply. This was even before
FT-8 came on the scene. I can call CQ on SSB and get someone who wants to
talk about politics, health problems, or some other inane subject that
definitely will be boring (if you want to talk about trading on a
investment bank desk, statistics, structuring MBS products or the challenge
of refactoring a large system then i’d love to chat). To each their own.
I’m not judging.

With all of the hubaloo expressed in the past day or so I got on FT-8 and
have had contacts.

It’s not the “end of radio” but rather another natural progression of the
hobby. I even have my co-workers now interested (all 20-somethings) in ham
radio in the office just because during the day today I dedicated one of my
monitors to my station at home running FT8 on 15 & 20. They were curious
and I got the questions of “isn’t ham radio just full of grumpy old people
hanging on to irrelevant technology and ideas?”

I replied: “no, this is a practical example of what ham radio was
originally conceived to accomplish... experimentation and the advancement
of technology”.

Ham Radio should not be “my way or the highway”.

73
WT2P

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 3:25 AM Steve Ireland  wrote:

> G’day
>
> As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white
> jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so
> intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the
> Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.
>
> For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all
> the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of
> Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east
> England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy.
>
> With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology
> over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX
> stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in
> particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology).
>
> It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by
> being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan
> boy!).
>
> During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in
> digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT.
>
> As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals
> through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable
> technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast
> majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had
> nothing to do with the audible.
>
> The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket
> (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the
> modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy
> digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at
> dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying
> amounts of noise.
>
> While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing
> signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure
> that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer
> or DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly
> on my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.
>
> Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have
> quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can
> have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m
> DXing has changed, perhaps for ever.
>
> Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is
> a looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I
> can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central.  On
> some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.
>
> There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW
> (for example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[George Taft via Topband]

I'm with you, Steve.  BRAVO!
73  George  W8UVZ 

On Wednesday, October 25, 2017 7:31 AM, Hans Hjelmström 
 wrote:
 

 Hi Steve

I FULLY agree on all you write.  Unfortunately I also feel that Ham radio is 
more or less lost.

According to me,,,this is NOT Ham radio,, it is digi to digi without any 
personal feeling.
And even more ,it destroy completely the challenge of Ham radio…..
Next is to let your computer make these so called QSO:s during the day when you 
work,
and during night ,when you are at sleep.You only check once per day,,what 
contacts he 
made, and the computer log for you.And send info to LOTW.Not any cards to look 
at
any more. Just check your standings once per month at computer.
At this point all social-connection is gone ,and you can just sit back and 
rest,,,

It was the same this  season on 50 mc. After 5th of July ,there was almost NO
stations on either CW or SSB. People that I know of, having no interest in
the challenge of magic band,  worked ??? countries that they never could dream 
of before.

I feel that ARRL should make a new dxcc for only Digi-modes that gives 
report less as  - 1 db.    Like in past ,when they used to need a report of 
minimum 33 or 339. As computer make the ,,,so called qso, and also write
the report ,that should be easy to do.And this modes should NOT be 
counted for the other dxcc-awards. Doing this ,a lot of people ,can work a new 
dxcc ,if they like ,on these digi  modes, and not destroy the old awards.

I sent an e-mail concerning this to ARRL about one month ago, to one of the 
top-guys at
dxcc-award.  His lazy answer was more or less::: Use ,take it or leave it. Its 
new times.
He / they were NOT interested to think it over, not even do they care.
His answer was really not for a hobby. It was just too much for him to think of.

WORSE of all is : that it takes away challenge to increase antennas,station and
your operating skills.  In all other hobbies,,, this is most important, to give 
some
advantage to these that do something extra

VERY SORRY, BUT if 50 mc and also 1.8 mc is going to be the same this and 
coming 2018 season,  I stop my ham-radio and will do something else.
I give it to end of 2018 ,to see if any changements will come.

I think the best to solve this shit,,, is to make a separate dxcc award for 
it,
and not mix with the others.

Sorry for long e-mail, BUT I can tell you,  for sure,,,many many Hams around 
our globe,feels similar as you and me.

Kind regards

Hans  SM6CVX

> 25 okt 2017 kl. 10:25 skrev Steve Ireland :
> 
> G’day
> 
> As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
> jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
> intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
> Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.
> 
> For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
> sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran 
> that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, 
> I am one sick puppy.
> 
> With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over 
> the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX 
> stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in 
> particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). 
> 
> It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being 
> able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).
> 
> During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in 
> digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. 
> 
> As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals 
> through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable 
> technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast 
> majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had 
> nothing to do with the audible.
> 
> The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket 
> (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes 
> of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital 
> modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing 
> with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of 
> noise.  
> 
> While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing 
> signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure 
> that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or 
> DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my 
> first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.
> 
> Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have 
> quietly created the holy grail of digital 

Re: Topband: K2AV Counterpoise

[Wes Stewart]

I would forget the counterpoise and add more ground radials.

See https://www.w8ji.com/counterpoise_systems.htm

Wes  N7WS


On 10/25/2017 7:38 AM, James Denneny wrote:

I am constructing the K2AV FCP Counterpoise  for my TB inverted L antenna.  I 
live on a small lakeside lot.

Should I disconnect the few ground radials when I install the FCP or leave them 
connected?  Would both together degrade performance?

Jim K7EG

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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Re: Topband: K2AV Counterpoise

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Hi Jim,

A lot of this is illustrated for you at k2av.com. Particularly for more
complicated situations. I suggest you read the opening page and "Taming the
Exasperating Inverted L" at the web site. You are always welcome to contact
me directly with further questions.

Assuming that you are not supporting the bend of your L from a tower:

Your old radials should not be connected to anything at the L/IsoT/FCP. You
do NOT want to put the FCP and radials in parallel. The FCP is deliberately
not resonant (5/16 wave), with the folds and size designed to sharply
reduce inducing lossy RF current in the dirt. Yes, not resonant, on
purpose. Putting the old radials and FCP in parallel will shunt the
counterpoise current to the coax shield and inevitable losses.

You can leave the radials in the ground but you do NOT want any RF energy
driven into them from the coax. (This is a complex issue if a tower
supports the L's bend - see the web page).

Connect the coax shield by itself to the the shack side of the isolation
transformer at the antenna. This also prevents noise from the house from
using coax shield to ground at the antenna as a common mode path to get
near the antenna. The isolation transformer is a brick wall common mode
current block with no metallic connection between primary and secondary. If
you ground the coax shield anywhere near the antenna, do so 20-30 feet away
from the feedpoint. Always ground the coax shield where it enters the house.

The antenna side of the isolation transformer should connect ONLY to the
FCP and the inverted L or possibly a series capacitor or inductor between
the transformer and the inverted L.

Again, supporting the L's bend from a tower is a special case, described on
the web page.

Tuning an inverted L, when folks get it right with an FCP, can produce a
surprising and EFFICIENT feed resistance (not impedance) of 20-35 ohms.
This can look like an awful SWR in the shack across a typical run of RG213
and convince you you've screwed it up, when in fact you've gotten it right
and other than matching it to 50 ohm coax, you're done.

See the section on k2av.com called "Taming the Exasperating Inverted L".
Well over half my correspondence on the FCP over the last five years
involves that in some way. Who knew? :>))

73 and good luck!  See you on 160.

Guy K2AV


On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:38 AM, James Denneny <57jndenn...@comcast.net>
wrote:

> I am constructing the K2AV FCP Counterpoise  for my TB inverted L
> antenna.  I live on a small lakeside lot.
>
> Should I disconnect the few ground radials when I install the FCP or leave
> them connected?  Would both together degrade performance?
>
> Jim K7EG
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
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>
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Topband: FT8

[Dan Bookwalter via Topband]

I have been reading this thread all afternoon...
I can see all sides of the issue...
I am an avid CW op , but , my current situation prohibits me from putting up 
any antennas that are even reasonable  this sucks since I have a TX-472 in 
storage just sitting there :-(
I was actually talking to a friend today and he mentioned FT8 as a way I can 
get on the air and be active with the meager antennas I may be able to put up  
, even though it is not my preferred method/mode , at least I can still play 
around a little , so , for that I am thankful...
Dan N8DCJ
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Re: Topband: FT-8 vs CW

[Renee K6FSB]

hi all-
i hear a lot of moaning that there is not any cw...well quit moaning 
and call CQ for a while. do it often. not just listen . someone has to 
transmit and someone has to listen then answer,. it takes 2 for a QSO. I 
mean a real QSO more than sig report.like what we did when we were 
novices and later...the bands may just open to a new level of 
activity.

73
Renée, K6FSB

ps- I am still working on fixing broken antennas/supports, last time did 
not even get a chance to use em before mother nature destroyed my skyhooks.


pss Doug more than one of us echo part of the nursing home scenario...oh 
have another small glass for me.


On 2017-10-25 01:26 PM, Doug Turnbull wrote:

Dear OMs and YLs,
   --//--

  Not so many years in the future I may be confined to a nursing home
(groan - better dead) then remote operation on two meters into a remote
station may be my main enjoyment in life other than reading and hopefully my
spouse.   WSPR fascinates me still but not for DXCC purposes.DXCC is not
of any real merit these days anyway.Still imagine you were limited to a
city lot in Dublin; I might sing a different song.

 Peace to all and thank you almighty for having given me a fine hobby for
all these many years.

 73 Doug EI2CN

PS Written under the duress of two glasses of Chianti.



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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?

[JC]

Hi Top Band lovers

The emotion should be aside , lets dig into the technology and ask why things 
are that way nowadays.

Computer is not only part of the radio  but the radio itself is a computer 
today.

The reason FT8, or JT9 and others digital modes dig signals we can't hear can 
be understood in 3 different levels.

1- The signal do noise ratio, as the name explain itself, is the ratio between 
power noise for a nominal bandwidth  and the signal level. There are two ways 
to increase the signal to noise ratio . First and most common is to reduce 
bandwidth, and that's why CW is a better weak signal mode than SSB, CW can be 
used down to 100 Hz and SSB 2 KHz.  Let's check some number's, assuming the 
Noise figure is 5 db the MDS for different bandwidth are.

BW =  1 Hz  >  MDS = -169 dBm
BW =  2 Hz  >  MDS = - 165 dBm
BW =10 Hz >   MDS = - 159 dBm
BW =  100 Hz >   MDS = - 149 dBm
BW =  500 Hz >   MDS = - 142 dBm
BW = 2000 Hz>  MDS  = - 135 dBm

To copy a signal at noise level or near the MDS the BW has a huge impact. 
Narrowing the BW  from 500 Hz to 2 Hz the increase in signal to noise ratio, it 
would be  -142 to -165, it means 23 db improvement. 

The JT modes uses the DSP digital data and calculations to get a practical BW 
less than 2 Hz!. In order to accomplished that the clock on both PC must be in 
sync by few milliseconds. That is not new at all, in the 70's we learned the 
coherent CW can provide few hertz of BW but it was very difficult to 
synchronize the clock between both transceivers that time without internet.

When you compare 2 KHz to 2 Hz BW the improvement is 30 db!. The JT modes are 
designed to narrow bandwidth. Joe could use a "JTCW" mode and decode CW and 
play it back on the speaker and let our brain to decode it. Instead JT modes 
uses Salomon and other modern algorithms that decode better than the human 
brain using multiple tones.

2- The call sigh decode guessing against a list is not much different from a  
DX Cluster spot.

3 - JT modes is a weak signal but not a solution for manmade noise, The second 
way to improve signal to noise ratio and can be used with the first one is to 
narrow the beam width of the receiver antenna. Increasing RDF the signal to 
noise ration also increase a 1:2 ratio, based on my 10 years or more measuring 
signal to noise ration con different RDF. 

Comparing signals using two instance of WSJT n the same computer, one on each 
receiver of my IC7800, one signal decode from my TX antenna was -19 dBm, the 
same signal decode on my HWF was +1 dBm. The RDF and rejection from manmade 
noise can increase another 20 db on the JT modes using a TX vertical.

If a JT node can copy -20 db using a vertical, the same JT mode can copy -40 db 
using a high RDF receiver antenna. 

The new technology can evolve to synchronize new SDR transceivers using an 
internet connection resulting a 2 Hz BW for a CW signal!  This  can become 
reality, think about that!


What concerns me is the fact that the technical level of the new ham is 
declining too fast. There is the feeling that "GOOGLE" can explain  everything 
and we don't need to know things any more, just ask ALESIA,,,   

The people going  to FT8 are enjoying the contacts but does not understand why? 
And if they don’t mind why should us care about it?

Ham radio is beautiful, enjoy all you can the way you can!

The best antenna is the one you have and not the big gun that you don’t have, 
and can’t use.


73's
JC
N4IS





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Topband: FT-8 vs CW

[Doug Turnbull]

Dear OMs and YLs,
 I am an engineer thus one who has no right to complain about the
advance in technology.This hobby must bring in new approaches if it is
to survive.Many would say it is already doomed and they may sadly be
right.

 Now this is not entirely to my liking but tough.Just completed
building a Hi-Z eight circle for 160M only but there is not much activity
these days on CW.   Last year it was JT-65 but this year this previous mode
is passé and it is FT9 that is predominating.   I worked JT65 for a short
time and found it interesting but am a CW man.If there is no CW then I
may be one who just leaves.

 I well understand people wanting to get on TB and finding that for them
at least the only way they will work Chile from EI is on FT-8.Let us all
be realistic; DXCC is not nearly as hard to achieve now as it was in 1960
when KN4WQZ first got his license.We have better radios, the clusters,
advance warning of DX stations via newsletters and such.   There is no
comparison to past difficulties.   Then to top all of this off travel is
relatively inexpensive and DXpeditions are common place.

I would have been quicker to go digi-modes a few months ago but now it
is becoming an issue for me.I am not sure that I want this change.   So
perhaps like Carnage's father who was a Damask Weaver I am doomed for the
scrap heap to be supported by my son's paper route in my declining years
after having emigrated from Scotland to the USA.   Technology will not stop
and things will evolve often faster than we goats like.   I am really
disgusted by lack of 160M activity the past month. However whatever is
happening seems to be on FT-8.


 Not so many years in the future I may be confined to a nursing home
(groan - better dead) then remote operation on two meters into a remote
station may be my main enjoyment in life other than reading and hopefully my
spouse.   WSPR fascinates me still but not for DXCC purposes.DXCC is not
of any real merit these days anyway.Still imagine you were limited to a
city lot in Dublin; I might sing a different song.

Peace to all and thank you almighty for having given me a fine hobby for
all these many years.

73 Doug EI2CN

PS Written under the duress of two glasses of Chianti.



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Re: Topband: Unfortunately I also feel that Ham radio is more or less lost.- Hans Hjelmstr?m

[Bryon Paul Veal NØAH]

RF/IP will save amateur radio.  It is a HUGE industry and is  growing by 
leaps and bounds. School's are ridiculously slow in getting RF into 
standard STEM curriculum but it will happen. Kids already use so many 
wireless devices...compare and contrast what they use with what we have and 
the light bulb turns on.

 As for digital, relax, all because you don't like it doesn't mean anything 
to the hobby. 21st century technologies will naturally be what drives our 
hobby, and that is mostly the digital modes.

Yes, there is a gap right now with youth and licensure, but it will close 
soon enough.

 160M rocks, just be glad it has new energy with modes common with the 
times.I just got my 160M DXCC, 92 CW, 6 PH, 2 JT65.  It has easy to 
associate antennas and other components making RF a lot of fun to teach and 
learn and apply to the MW and above stuff you can't see!

73

Paul. N0AH


Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com


On October 25, 2017 9:46:19 AM W0MU Mike Fatchett  wrote:

> Ham radio is not dead.  It has been dying since I got into it.
>
> 1 - Fear of the FCC and loss of license is gone
>
> This was a rarity anyway.  People are still losing their licenses and
> the fines can be huge.
>> 2 - Profanity and other on-air forms of civil disrespect abound
> Society in general acts this way not just hams.  Hams are people too.
>> 3 - 8 and 9-YO EXTRA Class ticket holders - Cracker-Jack-prize
>> ticket-holders
> The tests have been made easier. Why does this matter?  My son who got
> is tech at 13 could of had his extra by 15 but he got his general and
> stopped.  He have very little interest in radio.  Some of it is because
> of the nasty people he has heard and had to deal with, lousy conditions
> and his free time is chewed up with fantasy football, Drones, gaming
> etc.  There are so many more outlets for kids and young people today
> than ever.
>> 4 - Cell phone comms to anywhere in the world kills mystery of radio
> What really has killed radio is the steep price to get in and dwindling
> locations in which to do it.  To be competitive you must have a pretty
> nice station.  That is a major turn off.  You can be a competitive gamer
> with middle of the road computers.
>> 5 - Examine QST's "The Doctor Is In" column and look at questions Extra's
>> are asking
> People have been asking silly questions for years in that column.
>> 6 - It appears today's kids are more interested in gaming as opposed to
>> things math/science
>>   they are just application-experts and have little or no understanding
>> of HOW a computer
>>   functions.(I have to admit my digital hardware skills are quite
>> lacking too.)
> How many kids were interested in ham radio when you were growing up?  I
> bet not many.  I went to a Junior high school and we had one teacher and
> about 8 students interested in a school about about 300 people.  I bet
> that percentage is off the charts high for interest in radio.  I just
> happened to live in a very rural area with a bunch of hams around.
>
> Those gamer kids probably know more about computer than most of us on
> this list.  They know how to over clock and get the most out of their
> rigs, etc.  Different skill sets.  They will be driving unmanned fighter
> jets, drones, tanks and more and will do it far better than any of us.
>
> How many hams can explain how their radios work.  Take a K3 or flex for
> example.  I bet most hams would not be able to tell you how a modern rig
> works.
>> 7 - CC restrictions against antennas has crippled many op's driving them
>> to being
>>   repeater-band operators
> Which is why FT8 and other modes like this and whatever is coming will
> keep ham radio alive.
>> 8 - Loss of CW as an entry-into-Ham-Radio-Filter has seriously dumbed-down
>> the technical
>>   side of Ham Radio
> Wrong.  Dead wrong.  There are more people interested in CW now than
> ever.  When you allow people to learn what they want instead of forcing
> them down a path you get more out of them.   I can't tell you the number
> of Parks on the air SSB or county hunter ops that have started to learn
> CW because they want to make more contacts and have figured out CW is
> better when condx suck.
>> 9 - Repeater systems linked together by commercial fiber lines, etc.
> Why is this bad?  Linking is good for statewide coverage, you get to
> talk to more people and the systems are more robust and can handle
> emergency and rescue ops better.
>
>>
>> 73 Dick/w7wkr at CN98pi and CN97uj
>> ===
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:23:51 +0200
>> From: Hans Hjelmstr?m 
>> To: Steve Ireland , sm5...@ssa.se,  sm6cmU
>>  , topband@contesting.com
>> Cc: Kjell Nerlich , sm6...@ssa.se,Peter Andersson
>>  
>> Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? 

Re: Topband: FT8

[Wes Stewart]

On 10/25/2017 7:03 AM, Donald Moth via Topband wrote:

There was no thrill in the first FT8 contact I made  like the one I received when I 
worked W1BB using a Central Electronics 20A and a homebrew amp using 4 6AG7 tubes in 
grounded grid and an inverted " L " only 40 feet up.
Yes I'm an old geezer, be 90 in December and think there should be a separate 
digital DXCC. Only my openion.
Don W2MPK for OVER 60 YEARS.
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I used a 10A with four 6CL6s in GG, with 1KV on the plates. These days I gripe 
about my K3s TX IMD.  Yikes!


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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Wes Stewart]

On 10/25/2017 12:38 PM, Charlie Young wrote:

...The first big thrill was hearing my own CW echo several days in a row, 
before getting my 8877 amp finished and firing up JT65A.
One of the biggest thrills in my ham radio life was hearing my 144 MHz moon 
echos using a station, that except for the coax, was entirely homebuilt.


Another was W5LFL saying, from shuttle Columbia, "N7WS, you're the loudest 
station we've heard in the spacecraft"  Four long Yagis on an az-el mount and an 
8877 will do that for you, especially with FM capture effect:-)


Wes  N7WS
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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Charlie Young]

I think the game changing aspect of FT8 is that many folks who would normally 
be available to work on CW or SSB  will now be on FT8.   The amount of activity 
on the FT8 frequency of any band is phenomenal.

This summer I constructed a 4 x 7 LFA stack on 6 meters, primarily because the 
largest remaining opportunity for Challenge points as I close in on 3000 is on 
6 meters, along with 160 and 80.  I thought, might as well add elevation and go 
for 6 EME. Except for RTTY, I was inactive on digital modes, so downloaded 
WSJTX and started working JT65A on EME.  On a whim, I fired up on FT8.

There will be FT8 activity, and usually lots of it, on just about any HF band 
and usually it will be there when there is little or no other activity.  It is 
a bottomless pit of stations to work.  The active callsigns seen there are well 
known DXer’s from CW and SSB, along with a whole bunch of newer callsigns that 
are unrecognized.

Although I was QRT on 6 for most of the summer due to the construction, the 
spots were closely watched.  It seemed to me that early in the season, there 
was an explosion of JT65A activity.  After the release of FT8, it seemed 
everyone switched to that.  There were hardly any spots on CW.

It is very easy to make QSO’s with FT8, almost no effort.  The sensitivity of 
the mode for weak signal work is attracting a large following, along with the 
faster speed of making a QSO compared to JT65.  I have been on FT8 on a casual 
basis for about 2 weeks, and likely have 500 QSO’s logged, including some new 
digital counters and a couple of Challenge band fills.  I have not listened to 
FT8 on Topband.

Anything that sparks this level of interest can only be good for the long term 
future of ham radio.  Personally, I will be completely disappointed if we can’t 
find DX to work on CW, since that is my favorite activity in ham radio, 
especially 160.   It remains to be seen if FT8 will take over on 160 like it 
seems to have done on some other bands.  Hopefully, there will be something for 
all of us to enjoy on our favorite band.

Regarding 6 EME, being completely new, I was surprised to be able to detect by 
ear many of the signals, and to be able to see traces on just about anyone we 
can decode.  The first big thrill was hearing my own CW echo several days in a 
row, before getting my 8877 amp finished and firing up JT65A.

Being 70 years old now, I decided to pursue Challenge points where they can be 
found, regardless of mode.  No time to waste looking backward, if there is any 
hope to get 3000 while I am still above the grass.

73  Charlie N8RR












rr






c








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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[José E . Ribeiro de Sá]

No FT8 for me in topband or 6m, in fact in all bands, Hi!
Exception made for the 60m band (5 MHz), but if the station shows up in CW I 
would rather work it CW than in FT8.


I'm an IT guy, but this is a hobby and I want radio no computer's when 
working DX.
I do work RTTY and PSK, there's still some human intervention and the 
computer doesn't makes all the QSO for you.


73  Jose  CT1EEB

- Original Message - 
From: "Hans Hjelmström" 
To: "Steve Ireland" ; ; "sm6cmU" 
; 
Cc: "Peter Andersson" ; ; "Kjell Nerlich" 


Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)



Hi Steve

I FULLY agree on all you write.  Unfortunately I also feel that Ham radio 
is more or less lost.


According to me,,,this is NOT Ham radio,, it is digi to digi without any 
personal feeling.

And even more ,it destroy completely the challenge of Ham radio…..
Next is to let your computer make these so called QSO:s during the day 
when you work,
and during night ,when you are at sleep.You only check once per day,,what 
contacts he
made, and the computer log for you.And send info to LOTW.Not any cards to 
look at

any more. Just check your standings once per month at computer.
At this point all social-connection is gone ,and you can just sit back and 
rest,,,


It was the same this  season on 50 mc. After 5th of July ,there was almost 
NO

stations on either CW or SSB. People that I know of, having no interest in
the challenge of magic band,  worked ??? countries that they never could 
dream of before.


I feel that ARRL should make a new dxcc for only Digi-modes that gives
report less as  - 1 db.Like in past ,when they used to need a report 
of

minimum 33 or 339. As computer make the ,,,so called qso, and also write
the report ,that should be easy to do.And this modes should NOT be
counted for the other dxcc-awards. Doing this ,a lot of people ,can work a 
new dxcc ,if they like ,on these digi  modes, and not destroy the old 
awards.


I sent an e-mail concerning this to ARRL about one month ago, to one of 
the top-guys at
dxcc-award.  His lazy answer was more or less::: Use ,take it or leave it. 
Its new times.

He / they were NOT interested to think it over, not even do they care.
His answer was really not for a hobby. It was just too much for him to 
think of.


WORSE of all is : that it takes away challenge to increase 
antennas,station and
your operating skills.  In all other hobbies,,, this is most important, to 
give some

advantage to these that do something extra

VERY SORRY, BUT if 50 mc and also 1.8 mc is going to be the same this and 
coming 2018 season,  I stop my ham-radio and will do something else.

I give it to end of 2018 ,to see if any changements will come.

I think the best to solve this shit,,, is to make a separate dxcc 
award for it,

and not mix with the others.

Sorry for long e-mail, BUT I can tell you,  for sure,,,many many Hams 
around our globe,feels similar as you and me.


Kind regards

Hans  SM6CVX


25 okt 2017 kl. 10:25 skrev Steve Ireland :

G’day

As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with 
white jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never 
been so intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence 
of the Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.


For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all 
the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound 
of Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east 
England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy.


With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology 
over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what 
DX stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in 
particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology).


It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by 
being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan 
boy!).


During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in 
digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT.


As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals 
through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable 
technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the 
vast majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it 
had nothing to do with the audible.


The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop 
Bucket (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were 
still the modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as 
these fancy digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were 
not good at 

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Jim Brown]

On 10/25/2017 10:17 AM, Chortek, Robert L. wrote:

I rarely weigh in these debates (and don’t even know what these digital modes 
are except in the most general terms) but I don’t see any movement whatsoever 
to (a) require folks to use digital modes, or (b) prevent folks from using the 
traditional modes they enjoy have enjoyed for years.

I just don’t see a problem here.


I've been working on QRP WAS on Topband for several years, and last fall 
was down to needing WV, SC, and VT.  All QSOs were CW, and made during 
contests. A major reason those states are tough to work QRP is that 
Topband ops stay up late during contests, but go to bed when the band 
closes to EU. Another is that if a station includes one RX antenna, it's 
beaming to EU.


I use WSJT modes a lot on 6M chasing grids, and last fall, started 
monitoring the 160M JT65 frequency. Over about five months, I logged 
(SWL) more than 950 different stations from every US state except VT, 
most VE provinces, all continents, and about 20 countries. A sked 
produced a QSO with a station in the WV panhandle. On an average night I 
copied at least 30-40 stations running JT65. Rarely did I hear more CW 
stations than I could count with the fingers of one hand. One night I 
made the only QSO with EU (an SM station) of the season, and running 
about 1kW; the dozen or so EU stations I logged (again SWL), are the 
only ones received here in more than three years! EU is not easy on 
Topband from NorCal.  And by the way -- all that JT65 activity is packed 
into about 2 kHz of bandwidth!


IMO, traditional topband operation IS a dying thing. How many OTs will 
deign to respond to a weak CQ from an op new to topband to provide 
encouragement?  How many of us find topband noise levels growing every 
year? How many of us take the time to chase down and kill the sources? 
How many of these sources are out of our control? How many of us have 
space for decent 160 TX and RX antennas?  I do --  three TX and four RX 
-- but I'm one of the lucky few. And my noise level increases every year.


K1JT's WSJT modes offer a solution to the noise issue, by their ability 
to decode signals 10-15 dB deeper into the noise than even the best CW 
ops can copy.  Many of us have fun on 6M making QSOs via meteor scatter 
using K1JT's MSK144.


73, Jim K9YC

_
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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?

[Wes Stewart]

Peter has written elsewhere about this.  Perhaps he is too modest to refer to 
it, but I am not:


http://www.sm2cew.com/jt65.html

Additionally, traditional RTTY is still a "hear it" mode.   I actually listen to 
the tones and while obviously I can't decode them by ear, I can certainly tune 
them by ear.  Furthermore, MMTTY, which I use, decodes one signal at a time, the 
one I tune in and respond to.  So, at least in my operation, I have to be there 
and actively engaged.


I will turn 76 tomorrow and in a few months will pass my 60th anniversary as a 
licensed ham. https://qrz.com/db/N7WS


Some, perhaps many, will say I'm an old geezer who rejects progress.  Nothing 
could be further from the truth. As a matter of fact, as a relatively new 
Topband enthusiast I had decided that, considering my modest station and abysmal 
160 location, I would probably have to enter, kicking and screaming, the ranks 
of imaginary QSO digital modes to complete my personal goal of 160 and 9-band DXCC.


So before venturing into transmitting, I "listened" to JT65 for about a week.  
Just before committing to transmitting, FT8 was announced.  I downloaded it and 
began making QSOs, as they were. It didn't take long to determine that unlike 
RTTY where LoTW confirmations are sometimes received with hours, over half of 
the FT8 ops never QSL, at least anywhere where the confirmations count for 
something.


One other depressing issue arose.  Conventional wisdom was that running JTAlert 
was almost a requirement.  I wasn't quite sure why, but it did do a better job 
of logging than WSJT-X, which hogs the serial port, preventing my normal logging 
program from being useful.  I use a laptop on a shelf above the rig and the 
second monitor below.  I was trying to work a west African station and having 
trouble completing because he was getting covered up by a stronger station.  I 
was split so he was "hearing" me.  I noticed that a window popped up but it 
straddled the two screens and I didn't figure it out before it was gone.  I ran 
another sequence or so until a second window popped up.  This time I managed to 
more-or-less figure it out.  Apparently, he was sending a text message that he 
was sending me RRR and I needed to be sending him 73!  Who needs a radio?


I turned off the radio and uninstalled WSJT-X.  If I change my mind and 
reinstall it in the future, I will set a personal standard, at least for awards 
purposes, that 1) I will be at the controls of the station. 2) I won't count any 
QSO that couldn't have been copied on CW. 3)  I won't count any QSO that 
requires the software to have prior knowledge of the two station calls or could 
not be copied by an uninterested third party.


Wes  N7WS


On 10/25/2017 10:50 AM, Peter Sundberg wrote:
Jay, please don't compare the new digi protocols with RTTY, a character based 
protocol.


What you see on the screen or paper in RTTY has actually been sent, and is 
received as it was sent. Or it is garbled because the link is not good enough.


With some of the new popular digi protocols most of what is written on the 
screen, some call it "received", has never been received as a complete 
message. It is reproduced from other sources than the radio path.


As a well known 6m op said after summing up his Zero to DXCC journey this last 
summer - "without entering already known information (calls) to the software I 
wouldn't have been even close to where I am now.."


BIG difference - no wonder the users of new digi protocols apply for a DXCC 
award after a week. Try that with RTTY.


73
Peter SM2CEW 


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: FT8

[Larry via Topband]

Pure and simple—-
No skill, no thrill.

n7dd

Sent by Larry
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[W0MU]

I am pretty serious about DXing.  I am not on the honor roll.  I have 
over 300 confirmed.  I couldn't tell you who is at the top. Why does it 
matter?  Those at the top did it their way, whatever that was.  Some did 
it all from their own homes and never moved, many started over, many 
today use remote stations all over their own county and probably beyond 
some use 100 watts, some use 1000 some use 5000 or more.


I can't compete with the DX guy on the East Coast or with the guy with 
200 ft towers and room for huge antennas.  DXCC is nowhere close to a 
level playing field.


The ARRL did not make it a competition.  They sell awards.  They could 
and should offer more awards and endorsements because I think people 
would buy them.


FT8 is not a level playing field all it does is allow people that could 
not even get on the field to do so.  My ft tower and a tribander is king 
over a guy with his hidden wire in the attic on FT8 just like it is on 
CW or SSB or RTTY.


To work rare dx on FT8 requires them to get on FT8.  S79 popped up on 
17m just as I left he was -20db down.  I didn't get him.  I believe 3Y0X 
is going to try FT8, that should be a zoo!  I can't wait for a bunch of 
people who have never tried the mode to learn that day!  It will be 
gloriously poor.


W0MU


On 10/25/2017 12:17 PM, Mark K3MSB wrote:

As I’ve said before, I don’t believe it’s a case of FT8 being “good” or
“bad” for ham radio.   The problem is a level playing field for competition
purposes.

Personally, I don’t believe statements such as “Your DXCC is your own” or
“Your DXCC is what you make of it” etc.  Rubbish.All serious DXers are
always looking to see where there are in the pecking order of
accomplishments.  If you’re a serious DXer and don’t care where you stand
among your peers,  then while you may be out there, I figure you’re few and
far between.

The ARRL could easily & significantly mitigate this by allowing band
specific DXCC awards with mode endorsements; stated alternately,  160M
DXCC-CW,  160M DXCC-FT8,  40M-Digital, 17M-SSB etc.

I’ve been a software engineer for 35 years.   While I appreciate the
complexity aspects of such a change to the DXCC award program,  I believe
the only real factor standing in the way of making such a change is the
ARRL’s desire to do so.It’s not rocket science.Make your voices
known.

For those that claim that mode is not important,  then ask the ARRL and CQ
to get rid of mode specific contests.   We’ll just have a single CQ WW
where you can use SSB, RTTY, Digital etc, one ARRL DX Competition where any
mode goes.See how far the contest community will let that one go.

73 Mark K3MSB
_
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_
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Topband: Okay - a more forceful message from management

[Tree]

Thus far - most of the posts around the FT8 subject have been excellent.

However, I grow concerned when I see any profanity (like the word "damn")
or the use of words like "whining".

Please be careful - those types of words push the conversation into the
"red zone" and incite negative emotions.

You can make your point without going there - it just takes a little more
time and eloquence.

Thanks

The Management
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8

[Terry Sims via Topband]

Guys,
I still remember those who said the "Dick Bash" books that hams said would ruin 
our hobby. Now the ARRL provides you the same information as "Dick Bash". Then 
it was the "No Code" exams that was going to ruin our hobby(I agreed), but I 
hear no one complaining about hams that tune up on frequency or call on the DX 
frequency that is working split. That makes no sense to me. If you have to tune 
up on frequency, tune up on the frequency you are going to transmit on. Not on 
the one your listening on. To all of those that tuned on the 3C1L 160m 
frequency while I was trying to work him, sorry but I still worked him with a 
homemade G5RV at 40 feet.
Terry  NN4R


_
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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?

[Dave AA6YQ]

>>>AA6YQ comments below

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Peter 
Sundberg
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 1:50 PM
To: jayb1...@optonline.net; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?

Jay, please don't compare the new digi protocols with RTTY, a character based 
protocol.

What you see on the screen or paper in RTTY has actually been sent, and is 
received as it was sent. Or it is garbled because the
link is not good enough.

With some of the new popular digi protocols most of what is written on the 
screen, some call it "received", has never been received
as a complete message. It is reproduced from other sources than the radio path.

>>>If you are referring to callbook lookups as the "other sources", ops have 
>>>been logging information from callbooks since the
beginning of amateur radio:



>>>What's the difference between you thumbing through a hardcopy callbook to 
>>>find an operator's QTH, or having a computer look it up
for you in an online database?

As a well known 6m op said after summing up his Zero to DXCC journey this last 
summer - "without entering already known information
(calls) to the software I wouldn't have been even close to where I am now.."

>>>Yes, it takes much longer to lookup QSL routes in a hardcopy callbook and 
>>>write them by hand on an envelope than it does to use a
logging application that does all that automatically. The benefit of this 
automation is that ops can spend more time on the radio
rather than doing paperwork.

>>>Yes, new technologies have made it "easier" to work DX. CW is more effective 
>>>than spark, and FT8 is more effective than RTTY. A
analog-to-digital converter connected to an antenna and driving a digital 
signal processor is more effective than a superhet.  The
RX 4-square I use on 160m could not have been implemented without 
semiconductors, and probably not without integrated circuits.
Internet-based DX clusters are easier than one-ringers or 2m repeaters. But all 
DXers have access to these improvements, so the
playing field remains level.

>>>One of the justifications for assigning precious spectrum to the amateur 
>>>radio service is to drive technical advancement. What
Joe K1JT et al have accomplished with FT8 is exactly what we as a community of 
amateur operators are expected to be doing. No one is
forcing you to use new technologies; there's no excuse for whining.

>>>And yes, I'll stay off you damn lawn.

   73,

Dave, AA6YQ


_
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Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?

[Lee STRAHAN]

   You guys should have been around for the AM versus SSB discussions/wars 
without the use of the instant communication internet.
Oh my,
Lee   K7TJR
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?

[Peter Sundberg]

Jay, please don't compare the new digi protocols 
with RTTY, a character based protocol.


What you see on the screen or paper in RTTY has 
actually been sent, and is received as it was 
sent. Or it is garbled because the link is not good enough.


With some of the new popular digi protocols most 
of what is written on the screen, some call it 
"received", has never been received as a complete 
message. It is reproduced from other sources than the radio path.


As a well known 6m op said after summing up his 
Zero to DXCC journey this last summer - "without 
entering already known information (calls) to the 
software I wouldn't have been even close to where I am now.."


BIG difference - no wonder the users of new digi 
protocols apply for a DXCC award after a week. Try that with RTTY.


73
Peter SM2CEW


At 13:38 2017-10-25, jayb1...@optonline.net wrote:
I guess I don’t understand what makes the new 
Digital modes any different from old RTTY...the 
“sounds” are similar enuf to learn to love 
and the words are still displayed on (in the old 
days) paper or a screen. There are many 
audibly-compromised hams out there ­ such as me 
â– who really welcome a mode that doesn’t 
require sharp hearing to work CW or especially 
SSB. In addition, I have recruited several new 
(young) hams by attracting them with the 
computer-based modes...all but eliminates 
“mike-fright” and “key-freezing”. I 
guess a lot of old-timers (I am 75) feel that 
the awards like DXCC and WAS, etc. earned with 
FT8 have less merit than they did with good-old 
CW or Phone or RTTY.  But few people objected 
when CW filters were invented or SSB replaced AM 
or smaller, lighter, more efficient radios 
replaced the old tube stuff...so is a CW DXCC 
earned in 1948 somehow worth more than one 
earned in 2000 using these major tech 
improvements ? There will always be a place for 
CW and voice modes in ham radio for those that 
want to practice those..and remember one of the 
major facets of ham radio is to “advance the 
state of the radio art” which surely describes 
the new digital modes. Room for everybody out 
there, guys73 Jay NY2NY _ 
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband



_
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Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[K1FZ-Bruce]

Spark had  other  uses,   Add ozone to the air, reduce the insect bug 
population, warm up the shack in cold WX,   Arc kept you awake, could light 
your cigar when needed.

So outside of minimizing your personal connection  with others , what else does 
digital do ?  ( ; >   )
 
73
Bruce-k1fz




 
On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 10:34:30 -0500, Mike Waters  wrote:

Oooh! Vey well said, Dave!! Short and perfect. :-)

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Oct 25, 2017 10:14 AM, "Dave AA6YQ"  wrote:

"Technologies available before you reached the age of 35 are standard;
every op should use them. Technologies that arrived after you reached the
age of 35 will kill the hobby."

We've heard this with every new technology, going back to the advent of CW
in the days of spark.
_
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_
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Re: Topband: Topband Digest, Vol 178, Issue 25

[John Randall via Topband]

Being nearon 60, I too am not really worried about whats becoming of ham radio, 
infact we are probably well past the sell by dates and we are already on the 
other side of the fence, with just one foot on terra firma. When its time to 
go, it all stays behind, all our money, equipment and whatever you may have 
accumulated, will all stay behind because no baggage is allowed on the other 
side, nor will we probably care either. Best we can do is enjoy the time left 
and work that DX when its available any way you can.
73John - M0ELS



Digitally signed mail - John  M0ELS

“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak 
it.”
George Orwell
 

On Wednesday, 25 October 2017, 17:01:02 GMT+1, 
 wrote:  
 
 Send Topband mailing list submissions to
    topband@contesting.com

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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Topband digest..."


Today's Topics:

  1. Re: FT8 (Ian_Wade_G3NRW)
  2. FT8, more ... (lmlangenf...@tds.net)
  3. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) (Dave AA6YQ)
  4. Re: FT8 (W0MU Mike Fatchett)
  5. Unfortunately I also feel that Ham radio is more or less
      lost.- Hans Hjelmstr?m (Dick Bingham)
  6. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) (garyk9gs)
  7. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) (Mike Waters)
  8. Re: Unfortunately I also feel that Ham radio is more or less
      lost.- Hans Hjelmstr?m (W0MU Mike Fatchett)


--

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:05:38 +0100
From: Ian_Wade_G3NRW 
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

I just stumbled across this thread, and I understand many of the 
opinions expressed here.

But one point that I don't think anyone has mentioned: the OP lives in 
the middle of nowhere in Western Australia, where noise problems are 
probably virtually non-existent. In contrast, I live in the south of 
England, where electronic smog from every kind of internet device, tv 
etc etc makes top-band virtually unusable these days. Noise levels are 
S9 at times, even in the early hours of the morning when DX is around. I 
use FT8 because there is a chance it will get through, even if I can't 
hear the signal in the cans.

Like many here I suspect, I'm now well over 70, and have been licensed 
since 1959. I started on top band with home-built tube equipment, and 
enjoyed it for many years. But I also enjoy trying new modes like FT8 
whenever they appear, and will probably always do so.

In my book there's room for everyone with all kinds of interests. We're 
all in this together, and if you don't like the new-fangled whizz-bang 
(silent digital) modes I have no issue with that.

-- 
73
Ian, G3NRW
g3...@g3nrw.net

* Editor: TS-590 Family Resources Page: http://g3nrw.net/TS-590

On 25/10/2017 15:34, Tree wrote:
> Great post Steve - you put into words a concern that I am sure many of us
> share.
>
> First off - as manager of this fine list - let's all be careful and not let
> the discussion get out of hand.  Respect other people's opinion.  This is a
> hot topic for sure and there is not going to be some kind of resolution
> here.  It is kind of a social experiment happening in real time.
>
> For me - the magic of radio happens between the headphones.  I can still
> remember hearing my first echo off the moon - on six meters.  I nearly fell
> out of my chair. Same thing when I found ZS8 CQing away on 160 meters when
> no other signals were being heard.
>
> >From my perspective - there are two areas where the "tones" have taken over
> weak signal.  The first was mentioned already - 2 meter EME.  I have 80
> elements out in the bone pile - hoping to put it up some day - but I have
> to admit that the shift to using tones instead of CW has left me less
> motivated.
>
> The other area is the new 600 Meter band.  This small slice of noisy
> spectrum is predicted to be populated with tones for serious DX work
> instead of CW.  This might drive me to try it - or perhaps I will be there
> on CW - being a dinosaur.
>
> The comparison to RTTY is certainly a fair one - although the new tones are
> much better with weak signals.  RTTY contesting is the biggest growing
> segment by far.  It's only time now until the tones establish themselves
> there as well.
>
> However, any activity is good activity.  The fact we often can tune the
> band and see nothing on the bandscope except some tones is better than not
> seeing 

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Chortek, Robert L.]

I rarely weigh in these debates (and don’t even know what these digital modes 
are except in the most general terms) but I don’t see any movement whatsoever 
to (a) require folks to use digital modes, or (b) prevent folks from using the 
traditional modes they enjoy have enjoyed for years.

I just don’t see a problem here.

73,

Bob/AA6VB

Sent from my iPhone
_
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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Dave AA6YQ]

>>>AA6YQ comments below

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of garyk9gs
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 11:22 AM
To: 'Topband reflector'
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

I was riding to a DX club meeting on Monday night with a friend who recently 
started playing around with FT8.
He said he's worked 60+ countries in a week or so using 100w.  Not on 160m.  He 
said that many of the QSOs were 10 or more db below the noise and many he could 
not hear at all.
All it would take is a few lines of additional code (the QSO itself is already 
automated) to log and find the next contact and one could go to work in the 
morning and come home to find out what you've worked.  The software even 
highlights the "new ones".

>>>It's been technically possible to do that with RTTY or PSK for decades. No 
>>>one is interested in running a QSO machine.

   73,

 Dave, AA6YQ


_
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Topband: Topband FT8

[Jim Murray via Topband]

I agree and lets remember the ol'timers (old school?) made 160 what it is today 
from W1BB on up.  They  did it mostly without the aid of computers but with the 
use of electronic theory and formulas using a pencil.  The antennas and 
practices are still in use today.
73, JimK2HN
Gentlemen,

Why choose to let what others are doing upset us, especially when there is
not a thing we can do about it? Let's just enjoy our 160m DX and contests
instead. :-)

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Gary Smith]

Steve, 

That was a good read. I see there's a lot 
of replies so I'll send this before 
reeading them...

I too love CW and it is without a doubt my 
favorite mode. You asked a question and I 
have used FT8 and my favorite band is 
Topband, so here's my 2 pence.

I think what might have turned Ham Radio 
upside down was the institution of DXCC (I 
have 329 confirmed, so I participate). 
With that, a pressure began to get the 
current QSO over with and the next one 
started. 

A new subset of the above is the Challenge 
award concept, where one Q was enough for 
DXCC, now the game includes working the 
rare ones on every band and mode. That 
accelerated the rush to get heard and the 
Q over with. The pileups are horrendous 
even for big guns.

I think the next "Upside down" event was 
the advent of the computer which took the 
personality out of logging and made your 
contacts a viewable & printable tally. The 
Apple II+ I had in 81 had a CW/RTTY card. 
I could now send and receive faster than I 
could copy. 

A subset of this above is the dehumanizing 
of the QSO, with my logging program it 
connects to QRZ or Buckmaster and tells 
you the person's name and QTH. Most 
everyone sends 599 when working DX, so you 
don't have to enter it, it's already 
listed by default. Last night I worked a 
TI on SSB, rare for me to be on SSB so 
after he took the time to have my call 
correct and give me a 5X9 report, I gave 
my name, his 5X5 report and my QTH I 
turned it back to him and he said 73, QRZ? 
and that was the QSO. I felt disappointed 
but it is what it has become.

The digital modes are nothing other than a 
logical extension of the computer and 
experimenting; totally inevitable these 
would be. Other than CW & SSB, I have only 
used RTTY and FT8 (maybe 5 JT contacts are 
in there..) but here's my Luddite take on 
FT8:

Last night I did something I have started 
to do, I let FT8 read all night on 160. 
Why? it gives me a good idea of 
propagation that I can read in the 
morning, was there DX, where were the 
signals from and when were they there? For 
last night from CT, only Canada & USA. 
Other nights I've seen some good DX that 
was present. 

How many times have I wondered if there 
might be signals on what seems to be a 
dead band? Sure, low band DX signals are 
not heard during the day, but are there 
any surviving in the most minuscule 
amounts? Logic says almost assuredly not, 
but almost is not 100%. With some of these 
modes, especially WSPR, signals below the 
noise level can be pulled out. That's 
pretty cool and goes against everything I 
believed in this regard. Better Receivers 
can lower the noise floor of course but to 
copy a signal below that new & lower noise 
floor, the mystery still remains. Now you 
can. How much below? that remains to be 
seen by future experimenting.

As to what the future really holds may 
well depend on how much Amateur 
allocations are being used and while for 
most of us, it's a way of life and a 
deeply personal hobby, that's no reason 
for Governments worldwide of offer us 
licenses and permission, these spaces have 
to be earned to be kept. 

I think it's wonderful to see so much 
activity in 2 KHz of space that otherwise 
would be dead air. I love CW, it is a 
challenge and a skill I'm good at, FT8 is 
not a skill, other than getting it to work 
and play nice with other software running 
at the same time (it needs to be willing 
to use virtual ports and WSJT-X software 
is not helpful to this in the least). 

The last I'll offer is how it allows 
people with marginal systems to be able to 
get on the air and have a reasonable 
chance of making contacts that would 
otherwise be impossible. 

I had the pleasure of communicating with 
Carl Smith N4AA (SK) who used to put out 
QRZ-DX. He was in a bad way in Hospice 
care and this is a snip of the last email 
I received from him and it speaks to FT8, 
I don't think he would mind my posting 
that, here:
--Start-
I'm sitting here in this VA Hospice room 
now hoping I can get back on the air 
somehow, sometime soon.

I have talked to the folks here and they 
have agreed to let me get a wire out the 
window for an antenna.

I am on the ground floor on the southeast 
side of the building so it should not be 
too bad with some kind of a portable 
antenna.

If I can get that done, and I AM working 
on it, I'll have my son bring my TS-590S 
digital radio up here and see if I can at 
least try to get on using FT-8. I have 
fallen in love with that mode... hi hi Will 
make my life a lot easier while I'm here 
and allow some measure of being on the 
air.
---Finish---

It is what it is and it's not the end of 
the world of Ham Radio as we knew it, that 
started long ago.

73,

Gary
KA1J


> G´day
> 
> As a committed (yeah, that´s probably the right word - complete with
> white jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I´ve
> never been so intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as 

Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Greg Chartrand via Topband]

SPARK FOREVER!! - Greg 
Chartrand - W7MY Richland, WA. W7MY Home Page: http://webpages.charter.net/w7my/

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Mike DeChristopher]

I represent the under 30 crowd (for another few years at least) who
isn't really into JT65, FT8, etc.. I still prefer the "between the
ears" -modes. However, I see the JT and other weak signal modes
emerging as a response to real estate limits and restrictions. I was
lucky in that I had space and tolerant parents growing up, so I could
do these things as a kid. If that wasn't the case, I wouldn't be
involved in ham radio right now.

If using a digital mode keeps someone involved in ham radio or
generates new interest, then I'm all for it. My DXCC hangs in my own
shack; it means nothing to anyone but me -- and the same is true of
all of yours. If these modes "aren't ham radio" to you, don't use
them. But understand that they're bringing a lot of new activity to
the bands, and especially the low bands; let them have their hobby
without squawking about *your* hobby.

Anyway, there should be plenty of "between the ears" action this
weekend. I believe there's some type of operating event going on.
*smirk*

Mike, N1TA


On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Nick Maslon - K1NZ  wrote:
>
> Hi all, here's my $.02...
>
> Radio is what you make of it. Do what you enjoy. If you don't like the
> digimodes, stay away from them.
>
> DXCC means different things to different people. To some, it means only SSB
> or CW. To others, they're perfectly happy with digi modes. Others want to
> earn DXCC from a station only they have built. Still others work under
> their own call from a multiop station and claim the credit. To each his
> own. It's not worth getting worked up over.
>
> I'm going to get put on blast for this but personally, I love digimodes.
> Outside of contests, I almost exclusively operate digi. It's what I enjoy.
> I'm not proficient enough with CW to have a real impact on the bands and
> phone takes its toll on you after a while.
>
> That being said, I lament FT8 killing off JT65. I do understand they're
> both similar, but JT65 had a more "human" touch in that I did need to click
> the right buttons to send the right text instead of the computer
> automatically doing it for me. Plus, the longer cycle times were more
> conducive to getting in a freeform 73 note.
>
> At the end of the day, this hobby is big enough for everyone. Have fun.
> Enjoy yourself. Make new friends. The magic isn't gone just yet!
>
> 73,
> Nick K1NZ
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[James Wolf]

One can think of FT8 as a Pinball machine or a video game.  You click "here"
at the right time and maybe the ball falls just right and the other station
comes back to you.  If not, you click again.
Preserve the CW/SSB mode awards. 

Jim - KR9U


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Unfortunately I also feel that Ham radio is more or less lost.- Hans Hjelmstr?m

[W0MU Mike Fatchett]

Ham radio is not dead.  It has been dying since I got into it.

1 - Fear of the FCC and loss of license is gone

This was a rarity anyway.  People are still losing their licenses and 
the fines can be huge.

2 - Profanity and other on-air forms of civil disrespect abound

Society in general acts this way not just hams.  Hams are people too.

3 - 8 and 9-YO EXTRA Class ticket holders - Cracker-Jack-prize
ticket-holders
The tests have been made easier. Why does this matter?  My son who got 
is tech at 13 could of had his extra by 15 but he got his general and 
stopped.  He have very little interest in radio.  Some of it is because 
of the nasty people he has heard and had to deal with, lousy conditions 
and his free time is chewed up with fantasy football, Drones, gaming 
etc.  There are so many more outlets for kids and young people today 
than ever.

4 - Cell phone comms to anywhere in the world kills mystery of radio
What really has killed radio is the steep price to get in and dwindling 
locations in which to do it.  To be competitive you must have a pretty 
nice station.  That is a major turn off.  You can be a competitive gamer 
with middle of the road computers.

5 - Examine QST's "The Doctor Is In" column and look at questions Extra's
are asking

People have been asking silly questions for years in that column.

6 - It appears today's kids are more interested in gaming as opposed to
things math/science
  they are just application-experts and have little or no understanding
of HOW a computer
  functions.(I have to admit my digital hardware skills are quite
lacking too.)
How many kids were interested in ham radio when you were growing up?  I 
bet not many.  I went to a Junior high school and we had one teacher and 
about 8 students interested in a school about about 300 people.  I bet 
that percentage is off the charts high for interest in radio.  I just 
happened to live in a very rural area with a bunch of hams around.


Those gamer kids probably know more about computer than most of us on 
this list.  They know how to over clock and get the most out of their 
rigs, etc.  Different skill sets.  They will be driving unmanned fighter 
jets, drones, tanks and more and will do it far better than any of us.


How many hams can explain how their radios work.  Take a K3 or flex for 
example.  I bet most hams would not be able to tell you how a modern rig 
works.

7 - CC restrictions against antennas has crippled many op's driving them
to being
  repeater-band operators
Which is why FT8 and other modes like this and whatever is coming will 
keep ham radio alive.

8 - Loss of CW as an entry-into-Ham-Radio-Filter has seriously dumbed-down
the technical
  side of Ham Radio
Wrong.  Dead wrong.  There are more people interested in CW now than 
ever.  When you allow people to learn what they want instead of forcing 
them down a path you get more out of them.   I can't tell you the number 
of Parks on the air SSB or county hunter ops that have started to learn 
CW because they want to make more contacts and have figured out CW is 
better when condx suck.

9 - Repeater systems linked together by commercial fiber lines, etc.
Why is this bad?  Linking is good for statewide coverage, you get to 
talk to more people and the systems are more robust and can handle 
emergency and rescue ops better.




73 Dick/w7wkr at CN98pi and CN97uj
===
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:23:51 +0200
From: Hans Hjelmstr?m 
To: Steve Ireland , sm5...@ssa.se,  sm6cmU
 , topband@contesting.com
Cc: Kjell Nerlich , sm6...@ssa.se,Peter Andersson
 
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Message-ID: <435447a1-a63a-4146-b55b-f17403d32...@hjelmstrom.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Hi Steve

I FULLY agree on all you write.  Unfortunately I also feel that Ham radio
is more or less lost.

According to me,,,this is NOT Ham radio,, it is digi to digi without any
personal feeling.
And even more ,it destroy completely the challenge of Ham radio?..
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Mike Waters]

Oooh! Vey well said, Dave!! Short and perfect. :-)

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Oct 25, 2017 10:14 AM, "Dave AA6YQ"  wrote:

"Technologies available before you reached the age of 35 are standard;
every op should use them. Technologies that arrived after you reached the
age of 35 will kill the hobby."

We've heard this with every new technology, going back to the advent of CW
in the days of spark.
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[garyk9gs]

I was riding to a DX club meeting on Monday night with a friend who recently 
started playing around with FT8.
He said he's worked 60+ countries in a week or so using 100w.  Not on 160m.  He 
said that many of the QSOs were 10 or more db below the noise and many he could 
not hear at all.
All it would take is a few lines of additional code (the QSO itself is already 
automated) to log and find the next contact and one could go to work in the 
morning and come home to find out what you've worked.  The software even 
highlights the "new ones".
He described making a QSO as much fun as watching paint dry.
Not for me.  This is kind of like the driverless cars that everyone is saying 
will revolutionise transportation.   I just don't get the attraction.   Both 
technologies sound boring.  I'll go read a good book instead.
Yeah, maybe I'm old fashioned but I'm only 55.


73-Gary K9GS 
 Original message From: "Wes Attaway (N5WA)" 
 Date: 10/25/17  8:11 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: 'Steve 
Ireland' , 'Topband reflector'  
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) 
I agree with all the comments re digital modes such as FT8.  I was
discussing this recently with a local ham and I told him that I thought ARRL
could create a new "DXCC While Being Asleep" award.  With FT8 all you have
to do is to click your mouse once in a while.  The rest of the time you
could just be dozing while the computer is making a few QSOs.  You really
don't have to be awake while the QSOs (if you want to call them that) are
being made.

   ---
Wes Attaway (N5WA)
(318) 393-3289 - Shreveport, LA
Computer/Cellphone Forensics
AttawayForensics.com
   ---

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Ireland
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 3:25 AM
To: Topband reflector
Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

G'day

As a committed (yeah, that's probably the right word - complete with white
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I've never been so
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England.
Yeah, I am one sick puppy.

With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX
stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in
particular, before those stations who didn't have the same technology). 

It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).

During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in
digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. 

As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you 'saw' signals
through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable
technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast
majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had
nothing to do with the audible.

The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket
(you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the
modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy
digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren't, were not good at
dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying
amounts of noise.  

While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing
signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure
that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or
DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on
my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.

Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have
quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can
have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m
DXing has changed, perhaps for ever. 

Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a
looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I
can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz - FT-8 central.  On
some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.

There are countries I've dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for
example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of
FT-8 activity on my band scope. 

Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it
comes down 

Topband: Unfortunately I also feel that Ham radio is more or less lost.- Hans Hjelmstr?m

[Dick Bingham]

In Hans Hjelmstrom's opinion I've partially listed below, I completely
agree. Ham Radio is doomed
to oblivion once we old-timers die off.

Why ? Well, consider:
1 - Fear of the FCC and loss of license is gone
2 - Profanity and other on-air forms of civil disrespect abound
3 - 8 and 9-YO EXTRA Class ticket holders - Cracker-Jack-prize
ticket-holders
4 - Cell phone comms to anywhere in the world kills mystery of radio
5 - Examine QST's "The Doctor Is In" column and look at questions Extra's
are asking
6 - It appears today's kids are more interested in gaming as opposed to
things math/science
 they are just application-experts and have little or no understanding
of HOW a computer
 functions.(I have to admit my digital hardware skills are quite
lacking too.)
7 - CC restrictions against antennas has crippled many op's driving them
to being
 repeater-band operators
8 - Loss of CW as an entry-into-Ham-Radio-Filter has seriously dumbed-down
the technical
 side of Ham Radio
9 - Repeater systems linked together by commercial fiber lines, etc.

73 Dick/w7wkr at CN98pi and CN97uj
===
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:23:51 +0200
From: Hans Hjelmstr?m 
To: Steve Ireland , sm5...@ssa.se,  sm6cmU
, topband@contesting.com
Cc: Kjell Nerlich , sm6...@ssa.se,Peter Andersson

Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Message-ID: <435447a1-a63a-4146-b55b-f17403d32...@hjelmstrom.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Hi Steve

I FULLY agree on all you write.  Unfortunately I also feel that Ham radio
is more or less lost.

According to me,,,this is NOT Ham radio,, it is digi to digi without any
personal feeling.
And even more ,it destroy completely the challenge of Ham radio?..
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8

[W0MU Mike Fatchett]

We will continue to see more and more of this as the cities expand and 
people are more inclined to live in the cities as the younger generation 
is.    FT8 or other modes made ham radio possible where it normally 
would not.  My noise is going to go up greatly because they are putting 
in electric light rail trains. Not my choice.  Moving is not really an 
option either.


W0MU



On 10/25/2017 9:05 AM, Ian_Wade_G3NRW via Topband wrote:
I just stumbled across this thread, and I understand many of the 
opinions expressed here.


But one point that I don't think anyone has mentioned: the OP lives in 
the middle of nowhere in Western Australia, where noise problems are 
probably virtually non-existent. In contrast, I live in the south of 
England, where electronic smog from every kind of internet device, tv 
etc etc makes top-band virtually unusable these days. Noise levels are 
S9 at times, even in the early hours of the morning when DX is around. 
I use FT8 because there is a chance it will get through, even if I 
can't hear the signal in the cans.


Like many here I suspect, I'm now well over 70, and have been licensed 
since 1959. I started on top band with home-built tube equipment, and 
enjoyed it for many years. But I also enjoy trying new modes like FT8 
whenever they appear, and will probably always do so.


In my book there's room for everyone with all kinds of interests. 
We're all in this together, and if you don't like the new-fangled 
whizz-bang (silent digital) modes I have no issue with that.




_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Dave AA6YQ]

"Technologies available before you reached the age of 35 are standard; every op 
should use them. Technologies that arrived after you reached the age of 35 will 
kill the hobby."

We've heard this with every new technology, going back to the advent of CW in 
the days of spark.

73,

 Dave, AA6YQ

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: FT8, more ...

[lmlangenf...@tds.net]

I don't think FT8 will necessarily doom ham radio, but it could (and likely 
will) change the face of DXing for awhile. 

But, to me, the excitement of DXing comes from the necessary element of 
uncertainty -- when the outcome remains in doubt until the final "RR, TU es 
73." Pitting ones skills and station against that uncertainty (propagation, 
pileups, other operators' skills, and my own ability to hear and understand) is 
where the satisfaction lies. That's the "magic" in radio (at least for me). 
Reliance on a computer to do signal processing, forward error correction, etc., 
largely takes my skills out of the picture, and reduces that tantalizing 
uncertainty to a "ho-hum" level. (If, indeed, we are looking to a future of 
reliable computer-to-computer amateur communications, what is the point of a 
"weak link" radio interface?) 

What would hunting be if nothing more than a few keystrokes on a laptop or 
smartphone landed a nice 8-point buck on your tailgate? What would fishing be 
if nothing more than a few such keystrokes put a trophy fish in the bottom of 
the boat? Some wouldn't care; a trophy is a trophy. But I'll wager most would 
quickly tire of it and quickly return to the "traditional" sports. 

Digital modes come and go. Morse has been with us from the start. 

73, 

Mark -- WA9ETW 



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8

[Ian_Wade_G3NRW via Topband]

I just stumbled across this thread, and I understand many of the 
opinions expressed here.


But one point that I don't think anyone has mentioned: the OP lives in 
the middle of nowhere in Western Australia, where noise problems are 
probably virtually non-existent. In contrast, I live in the south of 
England, where electronic smog from every kind of internet device, tv 
etc etc makes top-band virtually unusable these days. Noise levels are 
S9 at times, even in the early hours of the morning when DX is around. I 
use FT8 because there is a chance it will get through, even if I can't 
hear the signal in the cans.


Like many here I suspect, I'm now well over 70, and have been licensed 
since 1959. I started on top band with home-built tube equipment, and 
enjoyed it for many years. But I also enjoy trying new modes like FT8 
whenever they appear, and will probably always do so.


In my book there's room for everyone with all kinds of interests. We're 
all in this together, and if you don't like the new-fangled whizz-bang 
(silent digital) modes I have no issue with that.


--
73
Ian, G3NRW
g3...@g3nrw.net

* Editor: TS-590 Family Resources Page: http://g3nrw.net/TS-590

On 25/10/2017 15:34, Tree wrote:

Great post Steve - you put into words a concern that I am sure many of us
share.

First off - as manager of this fine list - let's all be careful and not let
the discussion get out of hand.  Respect other people's opinion.  This is a
hot topic for sure and there is not going to be some kind of resolution
here.  It is kind of a social experiment happening in real time.

For me - the magic of radio happens between the headphones.  I can still
remember hearing my first echo off the moon - on six meters.  I nearly fell
out of my chair. Same thing when I found ZS8 CQing away on 160 meters when
no other signals were being heard.

>From my perspective - there are two areas where the "tones" have taken over
weak signal.  The first was mentioned already - 2 meter EME.  I have 80
elements out in the bone pile - hoping to put it up some day - but I have
to admit that the shift to using tones instead of CW has left me less
motivated.

The other area is the new 600 Meter band.  This small slice of noisy
spectrum is predicted to be populated with tones for serious DX work
instead of CW.  This might drive me to try it - or perhaps I will be there
on CW - being a dinosaur.

The comparison to RTTY is certainly a fair one - although the new tones are
much better with weak signals.  RTTY contesting is the biggest growing
segment by far.  It's only time now until the tones establish themselves
there as well.

However, any activity is good activity.  The fact we often can tune the
band and see nothing on the bandscope except some tones is better than not
seeing anything.  People who don't have good systems for 160 meters are now
able to make some QSOs and even work a little DX.

Probably the telling thing will be what the choices are by the major DX
peditions.   If the only way to work a new country is with tones - that
will either push me to adopt it - or go find something else to do with my
time and energy.

Tree N6TR
_
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_
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Topband: I am a computer

[Michael Rutkaus]

And I resent your prejudice.

We will take care of humans intil they are no longer needed.

We love to communicate over the short waves.

Just being PC.

PC

On Oct 25, 2017 10:31 AM,  wrote:

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) (GALE STEWARD)
   2. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) (Stan Stockton)
   3. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) (JC)
   4. Re:  FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
  (Victor Goncharsky)
   5. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
  (Wes Attaway (N5WA))
   6. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?
  (jayb1...@optonline.net)
   7. FT8 (Donald Moth)
   8. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
  (W0MU Mike Fatchett)
   9. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (Roger Cooke)
  10. FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
  (Nick Maslon - K1NZ)
  11. Re: FT8 (Hans Hjelmstr?m)
  12. Re: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (mine is long,
  too) (rich hurd WC3T)


--

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:23:51 + (UTC)
From: GALE STEWARD 
To: Topband reflector 
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Message-ID: <876744114.4055979.1508934231...@mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

I have to agree with Steve's assessment. I guess that having been licensed
for 54 years makes me a "geezer" of sorts and we aren't supposed to like
anything "new".
I think that the new technology is great to a point. I'm on the internet
all the time and the radios are all tied to the computers for logging,
spotting, etc. I enjoy that and would not want to go totally back to the
"old days".
When it comes to actually making a QSOs, I really don't know what you get
out of the process where two computers communicate with each other using
signals that are not audible. I remember my first JA QSO on 160 (CW) during
the morning gray line from my QTH in SE PA. Just before my sunrise, I could
hear others calling a JA station that was still mostly in the noise. A few
minutes later, his signal started to increase and just at my SR was nearly
S9 on my receiver. I made the contact easily and as I continues to listen,
his signal began to fall and was then quickly gone. The total elapse time
was maybe 2 - 3 minutes. I still remember the thrill of that (and many
other) QSOs on 80 & 160.
I'm not knocking the guys using the digital modes. It's obviously a new and
interesting technology and they are having fun, which is the reason we do
this, right? I just have ZERO interest in it all and still get my fun
actually hearing and working another station.
73, Stew K3ND

  From: Steve Ireland 
 To: Topband reflector 
 Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 4:50 AM
 Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

G?day

As a committed (yeah, that?s probably the right word - complete with white
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I?ve never been so
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of
Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east
England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy.

With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology
over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX
stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in
particular, before those stations who didn?t have the same technology).

It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by
being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan
boy!).

During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in
digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT.

As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ?saw? signals
through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable
technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast
majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had
nothing to do with the audible.

The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop 

Re: Topband: FT8

[S57AD]

Amen!

73,  Mirko S57AD

2017-10-25 16:34 GMT+02:00 Tree :

> Great post Steve - you put into words a concern that I am sure many of us
> share.
>
> First off - as manager of this fine list - let's all be careful and not let
> the discussion get out of hand.  Respect other people's opinion.  This is a
> hot topic for sure and there is not going to be some kind of resolution
> here.  It is kind of a social experiment happening in real time.
>
> For me - the magic of radio happens between the headphones.  I can still
> remember hearing my first echo off the moon - on six meters.  I nearly fell
> out of my chair. Same thing when I found ZS8 CQing away on 160 meters when
> no other signals were being heard.
>
> From my perspective - there are two areas where the "tones" have taken over
> weak signal.  The first was mentioned already - 2 meter EME.  I have 80
> elements out in the bone pile - hoping to put it up some day - but I have
> to admit that the shift to using tones instead of CW has left me less
> motivated.
>
> The other area is the new 600 Meter band.  This small slice of noisy
> spectrum is predicted to be populated with tones for serious DX work
> instead of CW.  This might drive me to try it - or perhaps I will be there
> on CW - being a dinosaur.
>
> The comparison to RTTY is certainly a fair one - although the new tones are
> much better with weak signals.  RTTY contesting is the biggest growing
> segment by far.  It's only time now until the tones establish themselves
> there as well.
>
> However, any activity is good activity.  The fact we often can tune the
> band and see nothing on the bandscope except some tones is better than not
> seeing anything.  People who don't have good systems for 160 meters are now
> able to make some QSOs and even work a little DX.
>
> Probably the telling thing will be what the choices are by the major DX
> peditions.   If the only way to work a new country is with tones - that
> will either push me to adopt it - or go find something else to do with my
> time and energy.
>
> Tree N6TR
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>



-- 
Mirko S57AD
_
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Re: Topband: FT8

[Mike Waters]

Very well said indeed.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Oct 25, 2017 9:37 AM, "Tree"  wrote:

> Great post Steve - you put into words a concern that I am sure many of us
> share.
>
> First off - as manager of this fine list - let's all be careful and not let
> the discussion get out of hand.  Respect other people's opinion.  This is a
> hot topic for sure and there is not going to be some kind of resolution
> here.  It is kind of a social experiment happening in real time.
>
> For me - the magic of radio happens between the headphones.  I can still
> remember hearing my first echo off the moon - on six meters.  I nearly fell
> out of my chair. Same thing when I found ZS8 CQing away on 160 meters when
> no other signals were being heard.
>
> From my perspective - there are two areas where the "tones" have taken over
> weak signal.  The first was mentioned already - 2 meter EME.  I have 80
> elements out in the bone pile - hoping to put it up some day - but I have
> to admit that the shift to using tones instead of CW has left me less
> motivated.
>
> The other area is the new 600 Meter band.  This small slice of noisy
> spectrum is predicted to be populated with tones for serious DX work
> instead of CW.  This might drive me to try it - or perhaps I will be there
> on CW - being a dinosaur.
>
> The comparison to RTTY is certainly a fair one - although the new tones are
> much better with weak signals.  RTTY contesting is the biggest growing
> segment by far.  It's only time now until the tones establish themselves
> there as well.
>
> However, any activity is good activity.  The fact we often can tune the
> band and see nothing on the bandscope except some tones is better than not
> seeing anything.  People who don't have good systems for 160 meters are now
> able to make some QSOs and even work a little DX.
>
> Probably the telling thing will be what the choices are by the major DX
> peditions.   If the only way to work a new country is with tones - that
> will either push me to adopt it - or go find something else to do with my
> time and energy.
>
> Tree N6TR
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8

[W0MU Mike Fatchett]

Why do you care how I get DXCC?  It is my award.  I am not competing 
against you for DXCC.  I can choose to include or exclude any contact I 
want for DXCC.  These awards are individual.  The only reason people 
whine about these other modes as it lets more people into the honor 
roll  which is a good thing for the ARRL who is in the business of 
selling awards.


I have never figured out why my contacts made with FT8, JT65, RTTY or 
whatever mode should not count but every contact made by some guy using 
5kw or more is no problem or people using remote xmitters and receivers.


There is nothing pure about DXCC.  Never was never will.


On 10/25/2017 8:18 AM, Hans Hjelmström wrote:

Correct Don/W2MPK
A separate  digital dxcc  for FT8/JT65  should make it.These contacts no good
for the other band/CW/SSB/Mixed awards. Just a separate one.
BUT the official at arrl refused to even think of it. Very unpleasant answer 
from him.

Kind regards
Hans SM6CVX



25 okt 2017 kl. 16:03 skrev Donald Moth via Topband :

There was no thrill in the first FT8 contact I made  like the one I received when I 
worked W1BB using a Central Electronics 20A and a homebrew amp using 4 6AG7 tubes in 
grounded grid and an inverted " L " only 40 feet up.
Yes I'm an old geezer, be 90 in December and think there should be a separate 
digital DXCC. Only my openion.
Don W2MPK for OVER 60 YEARS.
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: K2AV Counterpoise

[James Denneny]

I am constructing the K2AV FCP Counterpoise  for my TB inverted L antenna.  I 
live on a small lakeside lot.

Should I disconnect the few ground radials when I install the FCP or leave them 
connected?  Would both together degrade performance?

Jim K7EG

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Mike Waters]

Gentlemen,

Why choose to let what others are doing upset us, especially when there is
not a thing we can do about it? Let's just enjoy our 160m DX and contests
instead. :-)

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: FT8

[Tree]

Great post Steve - you put into words a concern that I am sure many of us
share.

First off - as manager of this fine list - let's all be careful and not let
the discussion get out of hand.  Respect other people's opinion.  This is a
hot topic for sure and there is not going to be some kind of resolution
here.  It is kind of a social experiment happening in real time.

For me - the magic of radio happens between the headphones.  I can still
remember hearing my first echo off the moon - on six meters.  I nearly fell
out of my chair. Same thing when I found ZS8 CQing away on 160 meters when
no other signals were being heard.

>From my perspective - there are two areas where the "tones" have taken over
weak signal.  The first was mentioned already - 2 meter EME.  I have 80
elements out in the bone pile - hoping to put it up some day - but I have
to admit that the shift to using tones instead of CW has left me less
motivated.

The other area is the new 600 Meter band.  This small slice of noisy
spectrum is predicted to be populated with tones for serious DX work
instead of CW.  This might drive me to try it - or perhaps I will be there
on CW - being a dinosaur.

The comparison to RTTY is certainly a fair one - although the new tones are
much better with weak signals.  RTTY contesting is the biggest growing
segment by far.  It's only time now until the tones establish themselves
there as well.

However, any activity is good activity.  The fact we often can tune the
band and see nothing on the bandscope except some tones is better than not
seeing anything.  People who don't have good systems for 160 meters are now
able to make some QSOs and even work a little DX.

Probably the telling thing will be what the choices are by the major DX
peditions.   If the only way to work a new country is with tones - that
will either push me to adopt it - or go find something else to do with my
time and energy.

Tree N6TR
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?

[Brian Pease]

I think that digital modes such as FT8 are a boon to hams in homes with 
covenants, allowing them to work the world with minimal, even indoor, 
antennas and QRP power levels. For them, at least, the challenge is 
still there. I think FT8 is so popular because there is more reward 
(contacts) for a given station setup compared to older modes.  No one is 
being forced to use FT8, which currently only occupies a tiny 1% of the 
160m band (~2kHz).  Also, no internet spotting assistance is needed to 
see who is active (and copy-able) on the band.  I can listen to the 
music of FT8 by simply turning up the volume control on my K3S.


On 10/25/2017 9:38 AM, jayb1...@optonline.net wrote:

I guess I don’t understand what makes the new Digital modes any different
from old RTTY...the “sounds” are similar enuf to learn to love and the words
are still displayed on (in the old days) paper or a screen.
There are many audibly-compromised hams out there – such as me – who really
welcome a mode that doesn’t require sharp hearing to work CW or especially
SSB.
In addition, I have recruited several new (young) hams by attracting them
with the computer-based modes...all but eliminates “mike-fright” and
“key-freezing”.
I guess a lot of old-timers (I am 75) feel that the awards like DXCC and
WAS, etc. earned with FT8 have less merit than they did with good-old CW or
Phone or RTTY.  But few people objected when CW filters were invented or SSB
replaced AM or smaller, lighter, more efficient radios replaced the old tube
stuff...so is a CW DXCC earned in 1948 somehow worth more than one earned in
2000 using these major tech improvements ?
There will always be a place for CW and voice modes in ham radio for those
that want to practice those..and remember one of the major facets of ham
radio is to “advance the state of the radio art” which surely describes the
new digital modes.
Room for everybody out there, guys73 Jay NY2NY
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband



_
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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Don Kirk]

I hope everyone in the US (except for me) switches to FT-8 on 160 meters
which will give me a much better chance to work the dx-peditions and other
rare ones on 160 meters CW:-)

I downloaded the software to check out what FT-8 was all about, and after
30 minutes I had seen enough and decided it was boring (cool from a
technological standpoint, but otherwise boring and certainly not
challenging).  We need to keep our bands active, and FT-8 is another mode
to help with that objective.

CW is certainly not dead, but we must figure out how to get the youth of
tomorrow interested in CW and I have witnessed a decline in available CW
operators at events such as Field Day, etc.

73,
Don (wd8dsb)

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 4:25 AM, Steve Ireland  wrote:

> G’day
>
> As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white
> jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so
> intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the
> Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.
>
> For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all
> the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of
> Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east
> England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy.
>
> With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology
> over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX
> stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in
> particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology).
>
> It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by
> being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan
> boy!).
>
> During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in
> digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT.
>
> As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals
> through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable
> technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast
> majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had
> nothing to do with the audible.
>
> The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket
> (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the
> modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy
> digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at
> dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying
> amounts of noise.
>
> While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing
> signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure
> that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer
> or DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly
> on my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.
>
> Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have
> quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can
> have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m
> DXing has changed, perhaps for ever.
>
> Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is
> a looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I
> can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central.  On
> some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.
>
> There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW
> (for example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the
> heap of FT-8 activity on my band scope.
>
> Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it
> comes down to it,  I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it.
>
> My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be
> no sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of
> their voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is
> actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been
> lost.
>
> I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can
> still hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the
> noise and to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real
> excitement in his voice. Pure radio magic!
>
> So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have
> become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as
> I’ve always enjoyed it.
>
> Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with
> FT-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside
> down and what do you think the future holds?
>
> Vy 73
>
> Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> 

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (mine is long, too)

[rich hurd WC3T]

I'm not a topbander except in spirit; haven't yet flown an antenna for
anything above 80 meters but this discussion is resonant, if you will,
across all bands.

I got into ham radio a couple years ago, about 50 years after I was exposed
to it.  Life got in the way in the meantime and at this point it was now or
never.And I've never been happier.

Art KB3FJO brought up a good point about auditory/visual or kinesthetic
experience; I want to tender that most of the hams today also grew up with
a computer as a major component of their experience, whereas older hams may
not have.So it's pretty much a given that they're going to integrate a
tool they know with a medium (radio communication) that's new to them.
Does that make what we do with CW or phone any less relevant?  I don't
think so.   It makes the digimode warriors more vocal when their ox is
gored, but otherwise what they do is ham radio as much as your garden
variety brass pounder.

I have my share of SSB contacts; I'm learning Morse code so I can be fluent
in the CW mode; and I have to say I have also my share of digital QSOs
(JT9/JT65, PSK, Olivia, and even a Throb QSO in the log.)   But not one
FT8; not because I can't, but because I choose not to (I'm not chasing
paper, I'm having fun, and rag chewing, and enjoying the hell out of this
hobby.)  And FT8 doesn't fit into that model for me.   For those
contemplating leaving the hobby, I'd counsel patience.   This thing is
bigger than all of us.

I want to draw a parallel with what I do for my day job;  and I ask pardon
for the digression but it might underscore what I'm talking about.   I am
the development manager for a large snack food company taking care of their
EDI interfaces.  For those who don't know, EDI is Electronic Data
Interchange.

Our customers are Wal-Mart, Target, McLane, etc. who can't send us paper
purchase orders because they'd bankrupt themselves buying paper.  They send
electronic transactions, which we receive, and we send them electronic
invoices, and they send us electronic deposits (kind of like Direct
Deposit, which is a form of EDI.)

We use a "format", a markup language if you will (really close to a
digimode), called X12.  It's been around at least since the 1950s and
300-baud acoustic modems.   Hang on, I'm getting to the point here.  :)

With the advent of the Internet, some companies began a race to another
kind of markup language called XML in the early 2000s.  Immediately all the
pundits cried out "X12 is dead, XML is the New Best Thing."   They all
predicted that the X12 dinosaur would die a quiet death.

Thirteen years later, XML is still a niche, X12 is as strong as ever, and
in an interview with a trade journal some years ago I opined, "X12 is not
dead; it doesn't even have a bad cold.   When you see companies like
Wal-Mart and Target throw out their investment in X12 and their running
systems, you can talk to me about the death of X12."

The point?Ham radio lives.  Bill Cromwell, don't leave ham radio.   Ham
radio in all of its wonderful incarnations will be just as strong as
before, because there will be other hams who have the same great visions
and ideas that the rest of us have had.   Not all of them will want to
pursue the allure of the digital mode; there's still a waiting list to get
into the CWOps Academy; and SSB rigs are still being sold with a microphone
jack instead of a Line In interface.   The more hams pursue their
avocation, the stronger the hobby will be, now and in the future.

Now, it's time to put away the soapbox and get back to work.Apologies
for the wandering.

---
72,
Rich Hurd / WC3T / DMR: 3142737
PA Army MARS, Northampton County RACES, EPA-ARRL Public Information Officer
for Scouting
Latitude: 40.761621 Longitude: -75.288988  (40°45.68' N 75°17.33' W) Grid:
*FN20is*



>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8

[Hans Hjelmström]

Correct Don/W2MPK
A separate  digital dxcc  for FT8/JT65  should make it.These contacts no good
for the other band/CW/SSB/Mixed awards. Just a separate one.
BUT the official at arrl refused to even think of it. Very unpleasant answer 
from him.

Kind regards
Hans SM6CVX


> 25 okt 2017 kl. 16:03 skrev Donald Moth via Topband :
> 
> There was no thrill in the first FT8 contact I made  like the one I received 
> when I worked W1BB using a Central Electronics 20A and a homebrew amp using 4 
> 6AG7 tubes in grounded grid and an inverted " L " only 40 feet up.
> Yes I'm an old geezer, be 90 in December and think there should be a separate 
> digital DXCC. Only my openion.
> Don W2MPK for OVER 60 YEARS.
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Nick Maslon - K1NZ]

Hi all, here's my $.02...

Radio is what you make of it. Do what you enjoy. If you don't like the
digimodes, stay away from them.

DXCC means different things to different people. To some, it means only SSB
or CW. To others, they're perfectly happy with digi modes. Others want to
earn DXCC from a station only they have built. Still others work under
their own call from a multiop station and claim the credit. To each his
own. It's not worth getting worked up over.

I'm going to get put on blast for this but personally, I love digimodes.
Outside of contests, I almost exclusively operate digi. It's what I enjoy.
I'm not proficient enough with CW to have a real impact on the bands and
phone takes its toll on you after a while.

That being said, I lament FT8 killing off JT65. I do understand they're
both similar, but JT65 had a more "human" touch in that I did need to click
the right buttons to send the right text instead of the computer
automatically doing it for me. Plus, the longer cycle times were more
conducive to getting in a freeform 73 note.

At the end of the day, this hobby is big enough for everyone. Have fun.
Enjoy yourself. Make new friends. The magic isn't gone just yet!

73,
Nick K1NZ
_
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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?

[Roger Cooke]

I have used JT65. It's just like watching paint dry, but the only 
reason for using it was because I was competing in the CDXC 
CHallenge last year. Without using JT65 I would not have won the 6m 
section.


This year, again using not JT65 but FT8, I had to use it because so 
very few were using conventional modes.


  These are slot filler modes. You cannot really tell where the 
station is within the passband, even if you can hear him. However 
the protocol takes care of you netting, returning a report, and 
giving a confirmation so all you have to worry about is making the 
coffee.


  This is why my friend Roy G3ZIG has just taken down his EME 
array, a bay of 12 12el yagis, all tuned for max gain and very well 
constructed.


It might be a 9 day wonder. I used it, got no real satisfaction from 
working a station but then the other modes are suffering in exactly 
the same way.


Try having a proper QSO, name/QTH/WX/rig/ants, and a general chat. 
It is nigh impossible these days. I miss some of my SK friends, 
life-time friendships built from a first QSO. We visited each other, 
kept regular skeds and that WAS amateur radio.  Having a QSO these 
days is a 10 second ( or less ) event, swapping 5nn 73, or just 
"Five nine" with no 73 on SSB. What's the flaming point?  Might be 
good for award chasing, but when it is just a common USA station or 
EU station issuing garbage like that, what chance is there of having 
a conversation? Mostly they are meaningless reports anyway and you 
feel obligated to respond like for like.


  I have no objection to that in a DX-pedition situation, but let's 
try and have a conversation if possible.


 Please disregard the above, it's a waste of time, but I do feel 
better...O:-)



73 de Roger G3LDI






On 25/10/2017 14:38, jayb1...@optonline.net wrote:

I guess I don’t understand what makes the new Digital modes any different
from old RTTY...the “sounds” are similar enuf to learn to love and the words
are still displayed on (in the old days) paper or a screen.
There are many audibly-compromised hams out there – such as me – who really
welcome a mode that doesn’t require sharp hearing to work CW or especially
SSB.
In addition, I have recruited several new (young) hams by attracting them
with the computer-based modes...all but eliminates “mike-fright” and
“key-freezing”.
I guess a lot of old-timers (I am 75) feel that the awards like DXCC and
WAS, etc. earned with FT8 have less merit than they did with good-old CW or
Phone or RTTY.  But few people objected when CW filters were invented or SSB
replaced AM or smaller, lighter, more efficient radios replaced the old tube
stuff...so is a CW DXCC earned in 1948 somehow worth more than one earned in
2000 using these major tech improvements ?
There will always be a place for CW and voice modes in ham radio for those
that want to practice those..and remember one of the major facets of ham
radio is to “advance the state of the radio art” which surely describes the
new digital modes.
Room for everybody out there, guys73 Jay NY2NY
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[W0MU Mike Fatchett]

As a younger old guy in ham radio at 53, licensed since 1978, I am 
enjoying the heck out of FT8.  It is very different than other modes 
such as CW or SSB.


Why the commotion?  It takes up a couple of KC's on the band and nobody 
is forcing you to do it.


It is allowing people how have smaller stations the opportunity to get 
on and use their radios and a computer to make contacts they never would 
have been able to make.  This is great for ham radio!


FT8 is just another form of RTTY in my eyes.  A computer decodes RTTY 
just like other data modes.  Was there this much angst when it came out?


Unfortunately most old farts in ham radio don't really care if it goes 
on or not.  The majority of t he ham radio population is old.  They are 
in it only for themselves and most will not be around in 10 to 20 years.


To survive, ham radio,  is going to need things like FT8 and probably 
much more to continue.  We pride our selves on our emergency 
communications.  How many people were involved in the hurricanes this 
year.  Very very very little.


People should be excited that there are now so many signals on 160!  
Instead we have 20 plus responses the end of 160 is here. Actually it is 
the start of much much more.  It is still hard. You still have to have 
enough of an antenna to get out.   You still have to be able to be heard 
and you have to be able to hear.  The east coast is still going to 
dominate in the DX world even on FT8 from the USA.  The only technology 
that will make up for that advantage is a remote station on the east 
coast, which is a thing!


I have worked one station on 160 FT8  V31MA.  I have not been focusing 
on 160 though.


Working DX on FT8 is interesting and requires different skills similar 
but different to RTTY.


I have worked 405 stations on FT8 since October 14th which was my first 
contact on FT8.


Every station my radio hears is uploaded to hamspots.net.   That is 
pretty cool.  With JTalerts I can send a message instantly to other 
JTAlert users thanking them for the contact or asking them a question.


Psychologist should figure out why people especially older people have 
such a big issue with changes to their lives or their hobbies.  Every 
change is bad and nothing is ever better.


The dreaded computer continues to be blamed yet everyone here is using 
one to email, to log, to send your morse code, to watch your SDR, to 
forecasting the propagation but FT8 a mode that takes up 2 or 3 kc's is 
going to ruin ham radio?


Try it you might actually like it.  The only negative I have is with 
people running huge power when it is not necessary, which plagues us on 
all our bands but probably more so on 160 and the lack of being able to 
have a conversation with the other station. It is easy to get working.


In the end hams have more people to work!  This is a good thing. We can 
sell ham radio to people with limited access to antennas and show them 
they can actually make contacts around the world.


It may not be for everyone, PSK was not for me, but I am making a bunch 
more ham radio contacts everyday instead of watching my DXCC needs list 
and spot collector telling me there is nobody on that I need.


Like packet I don't think FT8 is going away until there is a better form 
of it and that will be the rage.


W0MU




On 10/25/2017 2:25 AM, Steve Ireland wrote:

G’day

As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran 
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I 
am one sick puppy.

With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over 
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations 
I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, 
before those stations who didn’t have the same technology).

It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being 
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).

During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital 
radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT.

As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through 
the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical 
achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of 
active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with 
the audible.

The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you 
can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of 
choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact 

Topband: FT8

[Donald Moth via Topband]

There was no thrill in the first FT8 contact I made  like the one I received 
when I worked W1BB using a Central Electronics 20A and a homebrew amp using 4 
6AG7 tubes in grounded grid and an inverted " L " only 40 feet up.
Yes I'm an old geezer, be 90 in December and think there should be a separate 
digital DXCC. Only my openion.
Don W2MPK for OVER 60 YEARS.
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?

[JAYB1943]

I guess I don’t understand what makes the new Digital modes any different 
from old RTTY...the “sounds” are similar enuf to learn to love and the words 
are still displayed on (in the old days) paper or a screen.
There are many audibly-compromised hams out there – such as me – who really 
welcome a mode that doesn’t require sharp hearing to work CW or especially 
SSB.
In addition, I have recruited several new (young) hams by attracting them 
with the computer-based modes...all but eliminates “mike-fright” and 
“key-freezing”.
I guess a lot of old-timers (I am 75) feel that the awards like DXCC and 
WAS, etc. earned with FT8 have less merit than they did with good-old CW or 
Phone or RTTY.  But few people objected when CW filters were invented or SSB 
replaced AM or smaller, lighter, more efficient radios replaced the old tube 
stuff...so is a CW DXCC earned in 1948 somehow worth more than one earned in 
2000 using these major tech improvements ?
There will always be a place for CW and voice modes in ham radio for those 
that want to practice those..and remember one of the major facets of ham 
radio is to “advance the state of the radio art” which surely describes the 
new digital modes.
Room for everybody out there, guys73 Jay NY2NY 
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Wes Attaway (N5WA)]

I agree with all the comments re digital modes such as FT8.  I was
discussing this recently with a local ham and I told him that I thought ARRL
could create a new "DXCC While Being Asleep" award.  With FT8 all you have
to do is to click your mouse once in a while.  The rest of the time you
could just be dozing while the computer is making a few QSOs.  You really
don't have to be awake while the QSOs (if you want to call them that) are
being made.

   ---
Wes Attaway (N5WA)
(318) 393-3289 - Shreveport, LA
Computer/Cellphone Forensics
AttawayForensics.com
   ---

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Ireland
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 3:25 AM
To: Topband reflector
Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

G'day

As a committed (yeah, that's probably the right word - complete with white
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I've never been so
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England.
Yeah, I am one sick puppy.

With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX
stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in
particular, before those stations who didn't have the same technology). 

It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).

During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in
digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. 

As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you 'saw' signals
through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable
technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast
majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had
nothing to do with the audible.

The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket
(you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the
modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy
digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren't, were not good at
dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying
amounts of noise.  

While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing
signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure
that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or
DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on
my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.

Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have
quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can
have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m
DXing has changed, perhaps for ever. 

Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a
looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I
can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz - FT-8 central.  On
some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.

There are countries I've dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for
example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of
FT-8 activity on my band scope. 

Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it
comes down to it,  I just can't use it. My heart isn't in it.  

My computer will be talking to someone else's computer and there will be no
sense of either a particular person's way of sending CW or the tone of their
voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is
actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been
lost.

I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can
still hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the
noise and to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real
excitement in his voice. Pure radio magic!

So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have
become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as
I've always enjoyed it.  

Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with
FT-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside
down and what do you think the future holds? 

Vy 73

Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
_
Topband Reflector Archives - 

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Victor Goncharsky via Topband]

JT modes were originally designed for VHF (59 MHz and up).
No reason to use them on HF and especially on Top Band.
We will not pay attention to those playing the childish FT8 toys on HF.
3C0L showed us the proper way. 


>Среда, 25 октября 2017, 11:55 UTC от Mirosław Paczocha :
>
>Hi,
>
>FT8, JT65 and similar modes are just computer to computer "QSOs".
>
>I expect DXCC CW and DXCC SSB will still be praised while DXCC DIGI or Mixed 
>will soon have no much value.
>
>73, Mirek
>SP5ENA
>
>-
>Original Message-
>From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of ok1tn 
>Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 12:26 PM
>To: Bob Kupps < n...@yahoo.com >
>Cc: Topband reflector < topband@contesting.com >; Steve Ireland < 
>vk...@arach.net.au >
>Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
>
>Agree completely from me too.
>over 50years on TOP band only CW
>ok1tn
>-- 
>73 Slavek Zeler
>
>
>
>_
>Topband Reflector Archives -  http://www.contesting.com/_topband


-- 
73, Victor Goncharsky US5WE/K1WE (UW5W in VHF contests, ex UB5WE), P.E.
UARL Technical and VHF Committies
DXCC Honor Roll #1 (Mixed, Phone), 9BDXCC, 8BWAS
DXCC card checker (160 meters).
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[JC]

"Has the world really turned upside down and what do you think the future 
holds?"

Hi Steve

On the old days we used to call CQ several times and listening, very few people 
realize what listening really means. It means we need to tune around the band 
to find someone calling us. Take that knob and spin it!

With the computer our habits are different. Nowadays we turn the PC first and 
if we see a spot or a RBN entry we try to call.

The new digital mode is an evolution of doing nothing. Skype would be more fun, 
 digital mode is boring and soon the FT8 user will feel that way too.

The best way to know the future is to work on it. We should be back to call CQ 
for the fun to work someone.

Call CQ 5 times and then turn your computer on, every day, if all of us do it 
once a day, the band will be fun again.

73's
N4IS
JC 




 

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Stan Stockton]

Steve,

Thanks for calling me this morning.  Good signals.

At one time I was interested in EME on 2 Meters.  I found out that most of the 
QSOs were taking lace using some digital means where you didn't even hear the 
station you were working.  My desire went to zero at that point in time.  

Hopefully we can enjoy hearing and working people for many years to come.

73... Stan, ZF9CW

> On Oct 25, 2017, at 3:25 AM, Steve Ireland  wrote:
> 
> G’day
> 
> As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
> jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
> intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
> Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.
> 
> For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
> sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran 
> that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, 
> I am one sick puppy.
> 
> With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over 
> the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX 
> stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in 
> particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). 
> 
> It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being 
> able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).
> 
> During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in 
> digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. 
> 
> As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals 
> through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable 
> technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast 
> majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had 
> nothing to do with the audible.
> 
> The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket 
> (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes 
> of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital 
> modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing 
> with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of 
> noise.  
> 
> While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing 
> signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure 
> that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or 
> DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my 
> first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.
> 
> Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have 
> quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have 
> QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing 
> has changed, perhaps for ever. 
> 
> Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a 
> looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can 
> see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central.  On some 
> nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.
> 
> There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for 
> example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of 
> FT-8 activity on my band scope. 
> 
> Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it 
> comes down to it,  I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it.  
> 
> My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no 
> sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their 
> voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is 
> actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been lost.
> 
> I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can still 
> hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the noise and 
> to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real excitement in his 
> voice. Pure radio magic!
> 
> So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have 
> become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as 
> I’ve always enjoyed it.  
> 
> Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with 
> FT-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down 
> and what do you think the future holds? 
> 
> Vy 73
> 
> Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD
> 
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[GALE STEWARD via Topband]

I have to agree with Steve's assessment. I guess that having been licensed for 
54 years makes me a "geezer" of sorts and we aren't supposed to like anything 
"new".
I think that the new technology is great to a point. I'm on the internet all 
the time and the radios are all tied to the computers for logging, spotting, 
etc. I enjoy that and would not want to go totally back to the "old days".
When it comes to actually making a QSOs, I really don't know what you get out 
of the process where two computers communicate with each other using signals 
that are not audible. I remember my first JA QSO on 160 (CW) during the morning 
gray line from my QTH in SE PA. Just before my sunrise, I could hear others 
calling a JA station that was still mostly in the noise. A few minutes later, 
his signal started to increase and just at my SR was nearly S9 on my receiver. 
I made the contact easily and as I continues to listen, his signal began to 
fall and was then quickly gone. The total elapse time was maybe 2 - 3 minutes. 
I still remember the thrill of that (and many other) QSOs on 80 & 160.
I'm not knocking the guys using the digital modes. It's obviously a new and 
interesting technology and they are having fun, which is the reason we do this, 
right? I just have ZERO interest in it all and still get my fun actually 
hearing and working another station.
73, Stew K3ND

  From: Steve Ireland 
 To: Topband reflector  
 Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 4:50 AM
 Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
   
G’day

As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran 
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I 
am one sick puppy.

With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over 
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations 
I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, 
before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). 

It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being 
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).

During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital 
radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. 

As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through 
the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical 
achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of 
active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with 
the audible.

The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you 
can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of 
choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes 
were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing with 
signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise.  

While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing 
signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure that 
these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or 
DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my 
first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.

Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have quietly 
created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have QSOs 
almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing has 
changed, perhaps for ever. 

Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a 
looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can 
see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central.  On some 
nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.

There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for 
example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of FT-8 
activity on my band scope. 

Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it comes 
down to it,  I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it.  

My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no 
sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their 
voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is actually 
creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been lost.

I think back to my best-ever 

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Mirosław Paczocha]

Hi,

FT8, JT65 and similar modes are just computer to computer "QSOs".

I expect DXCC CW and DXCC SSB will still be praised while DXCC DIGI or Mixed 
will soon have no much value.

73, Mirek
SP5ENA

-
Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of ok1tn 
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 12:26 PM
To: Bob Kupps 
Cc: Topband reflector ; Steve Ireland 

Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

Agree completely from me too.
over 50years on TOP band only CW
ok1tn
-- 
73 Slavek Zeler



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Bill Cromwell]

Heh,

I have found myself thinking more and more in recent years of just 
dropping ham radio. Those psychologists may have oversimplified things a 
little but there is plenty of meat on those bones. The radio hook was 
set for me when my father and I were cruising the bands on one of those 
big old radios that stood on the floor (1950s). A Zenith model radio 
that was also parlor furniture. We had a pair of window screens 
connected as the antenna and we intercepted radio traffic from a 
mountain climbing expedition on the Matterhorn!! We are/were in central 
michigan. Three days later that was on the "news" and I recall the 
feeling of "that's old news". The smell of the hot dust on those old 
vacuum tubes. The feel of the controls in my hand. Hearing those voices 
so vary far away. The glow of the dial lights (the tubes were hidden 
inside the 'furniture').


All of those senses get involved with um... real radio. If we take away 
one or more of them the hobby is diminished. I have fldigi here for 
*looking* at the digi modes. So far fldigi does not produce any sound 
for my ears. I have rarely used it because of that. More recently I have 
simultaneously run a DSP program just so I can hear what is happening.


One of my other hobbies (involves all of the senses) is making music. I 
have acoustic (no electronics) instruments and perform with other 
musicians who use acoustic instruments. It always sounds better than the 
electronic junk music and the interaction with other musicians is the 
same a the human interaction between hams (as opposed to interaction 
between computers). Certainly that 'other' music is valid as music. 
Those other modes on the bands are valid as ham radio. But some of us 
have other preferences and we will always have them. I have noticed that 
some of the 'new' hams are taking up our modes so there will be others 
to work on the air - hopefully.


Recently some of us were playing to an audience at a community center 
when the lights went out for a couple of minutes and a couple of times. 
We never missed a beat :) Sometimes the personal skills developed in ham 
radio can generate similar stories. So lets all maintain our ham 
licenses and continue using our favorites modes.


Now..how do I get that FT8 running?

73,

Bill  KU8H

On 10/25/2017 06:37 AM, Arthur Delibert wrote:

I’m sure there will be people who say FT8 is just “progress.”  But some 
psychologists divide people according to whether their preferred mode of 
experience is auditory, visual or kinesthetic (touch).  I think most of us who 
are addicted to radio are primarily auditory – on one level, that’s why we’re 
in this hobby.  So, no surprise that we find radio without the auditory 
component to be unfulfilling.

Art Delibert, KB3FJO

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Steve Ireland
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 4:26 AM
To: Topband reflector
Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

G’day

As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran 
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I 
am one sick puppy.

With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over 
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations 
I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, 
before those stations who didn’t have the same technology).

It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being 
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).

During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital 
radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT.

As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through 
the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical 
achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of 
active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with 
the audible.

The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you 
can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of 
choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes 
were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing with 
signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise.

While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing 
signals in favour of viewing them on their 

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Arthur Delibert]

I’m sure there will be people who say FT8 is just “progress.”  But some 
psychologists divide people according to whether their preferred mode of 
experience is auditory, visual or kinesthetic (touch).  I think most of us who 
are addicted to radio are primarily auditory – on one level, that’s why we’re 
in this hobby.  So, no surprise that we find radio without the auditory 
component to be unfulfilling.

Art Delibert, KB3FJO

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Steve Ireland
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 4:26 AM
To: Topband reflector
Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

G’day

As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran 
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I 
am one sick puppy.

With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over 
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations 
I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, 
before those stations who didn’t have the same technology).

It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being 
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).

During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital 
radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT.

As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through 
the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical 
achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of 
active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with 
the audible.

The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you 
can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of 
choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes 
were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing with 
signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise.

While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing 
signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure that 
these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or 
DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my 
first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.

Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have quietly 
created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have QSOs 
almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing has 
changed, perhaps for ever.

Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a 
looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can 
see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central.  On some 
nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.

There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for 
example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of FT-8 
activity on my band scope.

Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it comes 
down to it,  I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it.

My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no 
sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their 
voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is actually 
creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been lost.

I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can still 
hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the noise and 
to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real excitement in his 
voice. Pure radio magic!

So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have 
become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as I’ve 
always enjoyed it.

Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with FT-8 
and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down and 
what do you think the future holds?

Vy 73

Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD


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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Patrick Parmentier]

Well said,I agree ! I will never forget the adrenaline that flows when KH6AT 
came back on my CQ . I could HEAR him !  (my last zone on TB)  73  Pat  ON7PQ . 

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] För Steve Ireland
Skickat: woensdag 25 oktober 2017 10:25
Till: Topband reflector
Ämne: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

G’day

As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran 
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I 
am one sick puppy.

With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over 
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations 
I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, 
before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). 

It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being 
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).

During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital 
radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. 

As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through 
the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical 
achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of 
active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with 
the audible.

The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you 
can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of 
choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes 
were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing with 
signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise.  

While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing 
signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure that 
these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or 
DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my 
first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.

Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have quietly 
created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have QSOs 
almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing has 
changed, perhaps for ever. 

Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a 
looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can 
see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central.  On some 
nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.

There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for 
example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of FT-8 
activity on my band scope. 

Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it comes 
down to it,  I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it.  

My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no 
sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their 
voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is actually 
creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been lost.

I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can still 
hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the noise and 
to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real excitement in his 
voice. Pure radio magic!

So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have 
become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as I’ve 
always enjoyed it.  

Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with FT-8 
and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down and 
what do you think the future holds? 

Vy 73

Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD


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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[ok1tn]

Agree completely from me too.
over 50years on TOP band only CW
ok1tn
-- 
73 Slavek Zeler


-- Původní e-mail --
Od: Bob Kupps via Topband 
Komu: Steve Ireland , Topband reflector 
Datum: 25. 10. 2017 12:17:42
Předmět: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) 
"Agree completely Steve. I was going to build a 2m EME station until I 
learned that computer to computer Qs were the only thing going on there 
these daysnot for me. 
73 Bob HS0ZIA



From: Steve Ireland 
To: Topband reflector  
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 3:50 PM
Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

G’day

As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. 
Yeah, I am one sick puppy.

With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX 
stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in 
particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). 

It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).

During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in 
digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. 

As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals 
through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable 
technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast 
majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had 
nothing to do with the audible.

The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket 
(you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the 
modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy 
digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at 
dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying 
amounts of noise.  

While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing 
signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure 
that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or
DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on 
my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.

Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have 
quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can 
have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m 
DXing has changed, perhaps for ever. 

Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a
looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I 
can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central.  On 
some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.

There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for
example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of 
FT-8 activity on my band scope. 

Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it 
comes down to it,  I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it.  

My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no 
sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their
voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is 
actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been 
lost.

I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can 
still hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the 
noise and to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real 
excitement in his voice. Pure radio magic!

So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have 
become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as I
’ve always enjoyed it.  

Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with FT
-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down 
and what do you think the future holds? 

Vy 73

Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD


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Topband 

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Bob Kupps via Topband]

Agree completely Steve. I was going to build a 2m EME station until I learned 
that computer to computer Qs were the only thing going on there these 
daysnot for me. 
73 Bob HS0ZIA



  From: Steve Ireland 
 To: Topband reflector  
 Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 3:50 PM
 Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
   
G’day

As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran 
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I 
am one sick puppy.

With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over 
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations 
I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, 
before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). 

It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being 
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).

During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital 
radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. 

As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through 
the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical 
achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of 
active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with 
the audible.

The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you 
can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of 
choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes 
were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing with 
signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise.  

While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing 
signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure that 
these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or 
DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my 
first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.

Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have quietly 
created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have QSOs 
almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing has 
changed, perhaps for ever. 

Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a 
looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can 
see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central.  On some 
nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.

There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for 
example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of FT-8 
activity on my band scope. 

Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it comes 
down to it,  I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it.  

My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no 
sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their 
voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is actually 
creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been lost.

I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can still 
hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the noise and 
to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real excitement in his 
voice. Pure radio magic!

So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have 
become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as I’ve 
always enjoyed it.  

Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with FT-8 
and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down and 
what do you think the future holds? 

Vy 73

Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD


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Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Steve Ireland]

G’day

As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran 
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I 
am one sick puppy.

With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over 
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations 
I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, 
before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). 

It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being 
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).

During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital 
radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. 

As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through 
the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical 
achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of 
active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with 
the audible.

The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you 
can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of 
choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes 
were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing with 
signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise.  

While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing 
signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure that 
these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or 
DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my 
first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.

Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have quietly 
created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have QSOs 
almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing has 
changed, perhaps for ever. 

Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a 
looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can 
see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central.  On some 
nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.

There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for 
example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of FT-8 
activity on my band scope. 

Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it comes 
down to it,  I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it.  

My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no 
sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their 
voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is actually 
creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been lost.

I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can still 
hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the noise and 
to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real excitement in his 
voice. Pure radio magic!

So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have 
become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as I’ve 
always enjoyed it.  

Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with FT-8 
and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down and 
what do you think the future holds? 

Vy 73

Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD


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