Re: Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help

[Bryon Paul Veal NØAH]

Rick,

what are the ball park figured on the coil diameter I'm guessing 5 or 
so inches across is a good place to start

Paul. N0AH

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On November 1, 2017 11:25:42 AM "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" 
 wrote:

> You need +j34 ohms in parallel with your coax coming in.
> This is about 3 microhenries.  This would be around 6
> turns on your coil if the turns are spaced a wire
> diameter.  IOW, tap the coax 6 turns from the grounded end.
> Then tap the antenna to whatever tunes to 1.83 MHz.
>
> Rick N6RK
>
> On 11/1/2017 9:54 AM, MR TREVOR DUNNE wrote:
>>
>> Hi All
>>
>>
>>
>> I finally got the vertical up and running, problem I have now is I can't 
>> find a low SWR on the coil, the best I can get is about 2.8:1 no matter 
>> where I tap the coil that's the best SWR, I can move that point up and down 
>> the band by moving the tap but the SWR stays the same,
>>
>> My current set up is about 55ft vertical I have 2 loading wires in a T 
>> shape, wires are 50ft either side of the vertical and the are pretty level 
>> and in line,
>>
>> I have 38 radials averaging about 45-60ft long, I will add more when time 
>> allows but don't the make the SWR worse ??
>>
>> With no coil I get resonance at 2.12mhz with R=16 X=2 on my MFJ269,
>>
>> The coil is 25ft of 5mm copper brake pipe in a 4" diameter, the coil is 
>> attached to base of the vertical and the other end is grounded,
>>
>> Any pointers on what I can do to get a better match,
>>
>> Thanks
>> Trevor
>> EI2GLB
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Re: Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help

[Bryon Paul Veal NØAH]

a drawing guys would help

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On November 1, 2017 12:28:35 PM MR TREVOR DUNNE  wrote:

> Thanks everyone for the replies, I'm new to all this so you may go easy on 
> me, I don't understand this R+JX stuff so I need a dummies guide if possible,
>
> I have the vertical section at the top of the coil and I connect the feed 
> line to it where I can get the lowest SWR at 1.825mhz,
>
> Does the amount of coil left under the tap matter I didn't know it would as 
> it's going to ground,
>
> Ideally I don't want to drop the loading wires as they are not easy to get 
> to but I can if I need to,
>
> Thanks
> Trevor
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" 
> To: "MR TREVOR DUNNE" , "topband List" 
> 
> Sent: Wednesday, 1 November, 2017 17:25:25
> Subject: Re: Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help
>
> You need +j34 ohms in parallel with your coax coming in.
> This is about 3 microhenries.  This would be around 6
> turns on your coil if the turns are spaced a wire
> diameter.  IOW, tap the coax 6 turns from the grounded end.
> Then tap the antenna to whatever tunes to 1.83 MHz.
>
> Rick N6RK
>
> On 11/1/2017 9:54 AM, MR TREVOR DUNNE wrote:
>>
>> Hi All
>>
>>
>>
>> I finally got the vertical up and running, problem I have now is I can't 
>> find a low SWR on the coil, the best I can get is about 2.8:1 no matter 
>> where I tap the coil that's the best SWR, I can move that point up and down 
>> the band by moving the tap but the SWR stays the same,
>>
>> My current set up is about 55ft vertical I have 2 loading wires in a T 
>> shape, wires are 50ft either side of the vertical and the are pretty level 
>> and in line,
>>
>> I have 38 radials averaging about 45-60ft long, I will add more when time 
>> allows but don't the make the SWR worse ??
>>
>> With no coil I get resonance at 2.12mhz with R=16 X=2 on my MFJ269,
>>
>> The coil is 25ft of 5mm copper brake pipe in a 4" diameter, the coil is 
>> attached to base of the vertical and the other end is grounded,
>>
>> Any pointers on what I can do to get a better match,
>>
>> Thanks
>> Trevor
>> EI2GLB
>> _
>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>
>>
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Re: Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help

[JC]

Hi guys

Before anything else, don't trust MFJ269 reading, transmit with 10 w and
measure the SWR. It is very common the energy from AM broadcast stations
changes the real impedance reading on portable analyzers.

73's
N4IS
JC

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ronald
Gorski
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 2:38 PM
To: MR TREVOR DUNNE ; Wes Attaway (N5WA)

Cc: topband List 
Subject: Re: Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help

Trevol, the portion of the coil between the tap and the base of the vertical
determines resonance and needs to be variable unless you were lucky and
found the correct value. The shunt portion of the coil affects the feed
impedance. This shunt portion is like the hairpin match for a yagi. You
select the series inductance to make the antenna slightly capacitive and
adjust the shunt inductance to raise the feed impedance.  Both these moves
interact. Use a clip lead to vary the inductance of the series coil.
Cheers,
Ron N9AU 

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of MR TREVOR
DUNNE
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 12:12 PM
To: Wes Attaway (N5WA)
Cc: topband List
Subject: Re: Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help

Hi Wes

Thanks for the reply I can move the point of lowest SWR by moving the tap on
the coil, I need to lower the SWR I thought using the coil across the feed
point would do this but its not working for me??

Thanks
Trevor
EI2GLB

- Original Message -
From: "Wes Attaway (N5WA)" 
To: "MR TREVOR DUNNE" , "topband List"

Sent: Wednesday, 1 November, 2017 17:02:55
Subject: RE: Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help

Without doing any modeling, an off the top of the head idea, one option
would be to drop a wire down from the end of each of the T wires you have at
the top.  You might be able to move the point of lowest SWR down to 1.8 with
2x 15' +/- drop wires.

   ---
Wes Attaway (N5WA)
(318) 393-3289 - Shreveport, LA
Computer/Cellphone Forensics
AttawayForensics.com
   ---
-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of MR TREVOR
DUNNE
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 11:54 AM
To: topband List
Subject: Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help


Hi All



I finally got the vertical up and running, problem I have now is I can't
find a low SWR on the coil, the best I can get is about 2.8:1 no matter
where I tap the coil that's the best SWR, I can move that point up and down
the band by moving the tap but the SWR stays the same,

My current set up is about 55ft vertical I have 2 loading wires in a T
shape, wires are 50ft either side of the vertical and the are pretty level
and in line,

I have 38 radials averaging about 45-60ft long, I will add more when time
allows but don't the make the SWR worse ??

With no coil I get resonance at 2.12mhz with R=16 X=2 on my MFJ269,

The coil is 25ft of 5mm copper brake pipe in a 4" diameter, the coil is
attached to base of the vertical and the other end is grounded,

Any pointers on what I can do to get a better match,

Thanks
Trevor
EI2GLB
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Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help

[Roger Kennedy]

Hi Trevor

Read Joe, W4TV's answer again !

The coil should be whatever inductance you need to resonate your slightly
short antenna . . . then you can use that coil as an auto-transformer to get
a good match, ie once the antenna is resonant, you can feed your coax a few
turns up the coil.

But your coil sounds WAY too big to me !  And with that big a diameter, you
may need to adjust the tap a half a turn or less.  So I would use a 2"
diameter, and I doubt if you need more than 10 turns.

If you don't have any suitable gear to assess this, then try this:

On a 2" diameter coil, connect your coax inner two turns up the coil from
ground.  Now try tapping the end of the antenna vertical wire up and down
the coil, and find where you have the best match.

Once you are at that best point, if the VSWR isn't 1:1, try moving the coax
tap up a bit. (just one turn at a time)

Roger G3YRO

>Thanks everyone for the replies, I'm new to all this so you may go easy on
me, I
>don't understand this R+JX stuff so I need a dummies guide if possible,

>I Have the vertical section at the top of the coil and I connect the feed
line to it
>where I can get the lowest SWR at 1.825mhz,

>Does the amount of coil left under the tap matter I didn't know it would as
it's 
>going to ground,

>Ideally I don't want to drop the loading wires as they are not easy to get
to but I 
>can if I need to,

>Thanks
>Trevor


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Re: Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help

[Ronald Gorski]

Trevol, the portion of the coil between the tap and the base of the vertical 
determines resonance and needs to be variable unless you were lucky and found 
the correct value. The shunt portion of the coil affects the feed impedance. 
This shunt portion is like the hairpin match for a yagi. You select the series 
inductance to make the antenna slightly capacitive and adjust the shunt 
inductance to raise the feed impedance.  Both these moves interact. Use a clip 
lead to vary the inductance of the series coil.
Cheers,
Ron N9AU 

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of MR TREVOR 
DUNNE
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 12:12 PM
To: Wes Attaway (N5WA)
Cc: topband List
Subject: Re: Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help

Hi Wes

Thanks for the reply I can move the point of lowest SWR by moving the tap on 
the coil, I need to lower the SWR I thought using the coil across the feed 
point would do this but its not working for me??

Thanks
Trevor
EI2GLB

- Original Message -
From: "Wes Attaway (N5WA)" 
To: "MR TREVOR DUNNE" , "topband List" 

Sent: Wednesday, 1 November, 2017 17:02:55
Subject: RE: Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help

Without doing any modeling, an off the top of the head idea, one option would 
be to drop a wire down from the end of each of the T wires you have at the top. 
 You might be able to move the point of lowest SWR down to 1.8 with 2x 15' +/- 
drop wires.

   ---
Wes Attaway (N5WA)
(318) 393-3289 - Shreveport, LA
Computer/Cellphone Forensics
AttawayForensics.com
   ---
-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of MR TREVOR 
DUNNE
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 11:54 AM
To: topband List
Subject: Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help


Hi All



I finally got the vertical up and running, problem I have now is I can't find a 
low SWR on the coil, the best I can get is about 2.8:1 no matter where I tap 
the coil that's the best SWR, I can move that point up and down the band by 
moving the tap but the SWR stays the same,

My current set up is about 55ft vertical I have 2 loading wires in a T shape, 
wires are 50ft either side of the vertical and the are pretty level and in line,

I have 38 radials averaging about 45-60ft long, I will add more when time 
allows but don't the make the SWR worse ??

With no coil I get resonance at 2.12mhz with R=16 X=2 on my MFJ269,

The coil is 25ft of 5mm copper brake pipe in a 4" diameter, the coil is 
attached to base of the vertical and the other end is grounded,

Any pointers on what I can do to get a better match,

Thanks
Trevor
EI2GLB
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Re: Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help

[MR TREVOR DUNNE]

Thanks everyone for the replies, I'm new to all this so you may go easy on me, 
I don't understand this R+JX stuff so I need a dummies guide if possible,

I have the vertical section at the top of the coil and I connect the feed line 
to it where I can get the lowest SWR at 1.825mhz,

Does the amount of coil left under the tap matter I didn't know it would as 
it's going to ground,

Ideally I don't want to drop the loading wires as they are not easy to get to 
but I can if I need to,

Thanks
Trevor



- Original Message -
From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" 
To: "MR TREVOR DUNNE" , "topband List" 

Sent: Wednesday, 1 November, 2017 17:25:25
Subject: Re: Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help

You need +j34 ohms in parallel with your coax coming in.
This is about 3 microhenries.  This would be around 6
turns on your coil if the turns are spaced a wire
diameter.  IOW, tap the coax 6 turns from the grounded end.
Then tap the antenna to whatever tunes to 1.83 MHz.

Rick N6RK

On 11/1/2017 9:54 AM, MR TREVOR DUNNE wrote:
> 
> Hi All
> 
> 
> 
> I finally got the vertical up and running, problem I have now is I can't find 
> a low SWR on the coil, the best I can get is about 2.8:1 no matter where I 
> tap the coil that's the best SWR, I can move that point up and down the band 
> by moving the tap but the SWR stays the same,
> 
> My current set up is about 55ft vertical I have 2 loading wires in a T shape, 
> wires are 50ft either side of the vertical and the are pretty level and in 
> line,
> 
> I have 38 radials averaging about 45-60ft long, I will add more when time 
> allows but don't the make the SWR worse ??
> 
> With no coil I get resonance at 2.12mhz with R=16 X=2 on my MFJ269,
> 
> The coil is 25ft of 5mm copper brake pipe in a 4" diameter, the coil is 
> attached to base of the vertical and the other end is grounded,
> 
> Any pointers on what I can do to get a better match,
> 
> Thanks
> Trevor
> EI2GLB
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> 
>
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Re: Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

Start by disconnecting the feedline.  Connect a jumper to the junction
of the vertical wire and the coil.  Now use a grid dip meter and tap
down the coil until the antenna is resonant (dip occurs) at the desired
frequency.  Now connect the feed line (shield to ground) and tap up the
coil until you find the lowest possible SWR.

If you are not satisfied with the SWR, move the top jumper 1/2 turn one
way or the other and then move the feedline tap for the lowest possible
SWR.  If the lowest SWR is higher than it was before moving the jumper,
move the jumper 1 turn the other way and again adjust the feed line tap
point.  Keep moving the "tuning" jumper 1/2 turn at a time and adjusting
the feed line tap until you are happy.

Remember, the feedline tap does not 'Tune' the antenna - that is done by
adjusting the total amount of the 'tuning' coil.  The feedline tap only
adjusts the impedance (R) seen by the feedline.

The single coil can be viewed as a two coil "L" network.  The coil from
the tap point to the vertical wire tunes the antenna to resonance (X=0)
whilst the coil from the tap point to ground (across the feed line) is
responsible for adjusting the impedance (matching to the feed line).

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 11/1/2017 12:54 PM, MR TREVOR DUNNE wrote:


Hi All



I finally got the vertical up and running, problem I have now is I can't find a 
low SWR on the coil, the best I can get is about 2.8:1 no matter where I tap 
the coil that's the best SWR, I can move that point up and down the band by 
moving the tap but the SWR stays the same,

My current set up is about 55ft vertical I have 2 loading wires in a T shape, 
wires are 50ft either side of the vertical and the are pretty level and in line,

I have 38 radials averaging about 45-60ft long, I will add more when time 
allows but don't the make the SWR worse ??

With no coil I get resonance at 2.12mhz with R=16 X=2 on my MFJ269,

The coil is 25ft of 5mm copper brake pipe in a 4" diameter, the coil is 
attached to base of the vertical and the other end is grounded,

Any pointers on what I can do to get a better match,

Thanks
Trevor
EI2GLB
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Re: Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help

[Wes Stewart]

Trevor,

You haven't really provided enough information to solve your problem.  If you 
want to use a shunt coil then I suggest that you consider measuring the R-jX at 
your frequency of interest and then designing an L-network using purposeful 
shortening of the antenna to create a capacitive reactance and then shunting the 
feedpoint with an inductance.  For example, if the frequency is 1.82 MHz and R 
remained 18 ohm (it probably won't) then shortening the antenna to make the 
feedpoint 18 -j25, a shunt inductor of 3.3 uH will yield an SWR of 1.05:1


This is in effect an unbalanced version of a hairpin match on a Yagi DE.

Wes  N7WS


On 11/1/2017 9:54 AM, MR TREVOR DUNNE wrote:

Hi All



I finally got the vertical up and running, problem I have now is I can't find a 
low SWR on the coil, the best I can get is about 2.8:1 no matter where I tap 
the coil that's the best SWR, I can move that point up and down the band by 
moving the tap but the SWR stays the same,

My current set up is about 55ft vertical I have 2 loading wires in a T shape, 
wires are 50ft either side of the vertical and the are pretty level and in line,

I have 38 radials averaging about 45-60ft long, I will add more when time 
allows but don't the make the SWR worse ??

With no coil I get resonance at 2.12mhz with R=16 X=2 on my MFJ269,

The coil is 25ft of 5mm copper brake pipe in a 4" diameter, the coil is 
attached to base of the vertical and the other end is grounded,

Any pointers on what I can do to get a better match,

Thanks
Trevor
EI2GLB
_
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Re: Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

You need +j34 ohms in parallel with your coax coming in.
This is about 3 microhenries.  This would be around 6
turns on your coil if the turns are spaced a wire
diameter.  IOW, tap the coax 6 turns from the grounded end.
Then tap the antenna to whatever tunes to 1.83 MHz.

Rick N6RK

On 11/1/2017 9:54 AM, MR TREVOR DUNNE wrote:


Hi All



I finally got the vertical up and running, problem I have now is I can't find a 
low SWR on the coil, the best I can get is about 2.8:1 no matter where I tap 
the coil that's the best SWR, I can move that point up and down the band by 
moving the tap but the SWR stays the same,

My current set up is about 55ft vertical I have 2 loading wires in a T shape, 
wires are 50ft either side of the vertical and the are pretty level and in line,

I have 38 radials averaging about 45-60ft long, I will add more when time 
allows but don't the make the SWR worse ??

With no coil I get resonance at 2.12mhz with R=16 X=2 on my MFJ269,

The coil is 25ft of 5mm copper brake pipe in a 4" diameter, the coil is 
attached to base of the vertical and the other end is grounded,

Any pointers on what I can do to get a better match,

Thanks
Trevor
EI2GLB
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband



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Re: Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help

[MR TREVOR DUNNE]

Hi Wes

Thanks for the reply I can move the point of lowest SWR by moving the tap on 
the coil, I need to lower the SWR I thought using the coil across the feed 
point would do this but its not working for me??

Thanks
Trevor
EI2GLB

- Original Message -
From: "Wes Attaway (N5WA)" 
To: "MR TREVOR DUNNE" , "topband List" 

Sent: Wednesday, 1 November, 2017 17:02:55
Subject: RE: Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help

Without doing any modeling, an off the top of the head idea, one option
would be to drop a wire down from the end of each of the T wires you have at
the top.  You might be able to move the point of lowest SWR down to 1.8 with
2x 15' +/- drop wires.

   ---
Wes Attaway (N5WA)
(318) 393-3289 - Shreveport, LA
Computer/Cellphone Forensics
AttawayForensics.com
   ---
-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of MR TREVOR
DUNNE
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 11:54 AM
To: topband List
Subject: Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help


Hi All



I finally got the vertical up and running, problem I have now is I can't
find a low SWR on the coil, the best I can get is about 2.8:1 no matter
where I tap the coil that's the best SWR, I can move that point up and down
the band by moving the tap but the SWR stays the same,

My current set up is about 55ft vertical I have 2 loading wires in a T
shape, wires are 50ft either side of the vertical and the are pretty level
and in line,

I have 38 radials averaging about 45-60ft long, I will add more when time
allows but don't the make the SWR worse ??

With no coil I get resonance at 2.12mhz with R=16 X=2 on my MFJ269,

The coil is 25ft of 5mm copper brake pipe in a 4" diameter, the coil is
attached to base of the vertical and the other end is grounded,

Any pointers on what I can do to get a better match,

Thanks
Trevor
EI2GLB
_
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Re: Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help

[Wes Attaway (N5WA)]

Without doing any modeling, an off the top of the head idea, one option
would be to drop a wire down from the end of each of the T wires you have at
the top.  You might be able to move the point of lowest SWR down to 1.8 with
2x 15' +/- drop wires.

   ---
Wes Attaway (N5WA)
(318) 393-3289 - Shreveport, LA
Computer/Cellphone Forensics
AttawayForensics.com
   ---
-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of MR TREVOR
DUNNE
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 11:54 AM
To: topband List
Subject: Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help


Hi All



I finally got the vertical up and running, problem I have now is I can't
find a low SWR on the coil, the best I can get is about 2.8:1 no matter
where I tap the coil that's the best SWR, I can move that point up and down
the band by moving the tap but the SWR stays the same,

My current set up is about 55ft vertical I have 2 loading wires in a T
shape, wires are 50ft either side of the vertical and the are pretty level
and in line,

I have 38 radials averaging about 45-60ft long, I will add more when time
allows but don't the make the SWR worse ??

With no coil I get resonance at 2.12mhz with R=16 X=2 on my MFJ269,

The coil is 25ft of 5mm copper brake pipe in a 4" diameter, the coil is
attached to base of the vertical and the other end is grounded,

Any pointers on what I can do to get a better match,

Thanks
Trevor
EI2GLB
_
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Topband: 160m Vertical matching Help

[MR TREVOR DUNNE]

Hi All



I finally got the vertical up and running, problem I have now is I can't find a 
low SWR on the coil, the best I can get is about 2.8:1 no matter where I tap 
the coil that's the best SWR, I can move that point up and down the band by 
moving the tap but the SWR stays the same,

My current set up is about 55ft vertical I have 2 loading wires in a T shape, 
wires are 50ft either side of the vertical and the are pretty level and in line,

I have 38 radials averaging about 45-60ft long, I will add more when time 
allows but don't the make the SWR worse ??

With no coil I get resonance at 2.12mhz with R=16 X=2 on my MFJ269,

The coil is 25ft of 5mm copper brake pipe in a 4" diameter, the coil is 
attached to base of the vertical and the other end is grounded,

Any pointers on what I can do to get a better match,

Thanks
Trevor
EI2GLB
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband