Re: Topband: FT-8

[K9FD]

Aloha Len,
Remember those QSOs,  very rare SSB contact as I dont work SSB, but your 
signal was

loud so I gave it a try.
Good year for 160,  hoping they will return in the next couple years.
73 Merv  K9FD  ex KH7C

Hi Dave and all.
Cleaning my radio room but will keep a dear QSL card from year 2009 stating
two different QSOs on SSB, reports 59, 58 and one on CW stating 569 CW.
Oh, the card is from KH7C ex K9FD for a two way QSO on 160 between Sweden
and Hawaii.
That is it!
73
Len SM7BIC

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Topband  För daraym...@iowatelecom.net
Skickat: den 31 januari 2019 23:37
Till: cqtestk...@aol.com; topband@contesting.com
Ämne: Re: Topband: FT-8

There is simply no substitute for the real, direct, visceral connection one
has with the person on the other end with either CW or SSB modes.  I'll be
in charge of the QSO, thank you.   Not my computer.

73. . . Dave, W0FLS

-Original Message-
From: cqtestk4xs--- via Topband
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 3:59 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: FT-8

This thread has been addressed on various reflectors.
I've tried it, made around 400 contacts or so, and found the mode pretty
boring.  Even with my pileups on FT-8 the mode left me cold.  I felt the
same way with RTTY...tried it and found it boring.  Why?  With CW SSB/AM I
felt a connection with the other person, someone sending with a key or a
person speaking to me.  With RTTY and especially FT-8 my machine is decoding
your machine.  Oh yeah, I know my XCVR is a machine and so is yours, but for
me it's not the same.
I understand why guys get all hot and bothered about the new mode, it gives
the guys who don't know CW a chance to work DX on a mode other than SSB and
gives the weaker signal guys a chance to work DX.  For the guys with bigger
stations it gives them a chance to work the rarer ones on tough bands like,
160 or 6.  Maybe that's why I'm not into FT-8, I've got a big station, and
can work CW.  Also, I've never been really into putting the new one in the
log as much as many guys are...I'm more of a contester.
If you want to work your pileups and/or work 300 countries on FT-8, that's
fine with me.  I'm not going to look down my nose at you but please don't
condescendingly  tell me I'm a dinosaur or refuse to accept new technology.
I'm accepting it, I just don't want to be part of it.  No hard feelings.
Bill KH7XS/KH7B/K4XS
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Re: Topband: FT-8

[lennart.michaelsson]

Hi Dave and all.
Cleaning my radio room but will keep a dear QSL card from year 2009 stating
two different QSOs on SSB, reports 59, 58 and one on CW stating 569 CW.
Oh, the card is from KH7C ex K9FD for a two way QSO on 160 between Sweden
and Hawaii.
That is it!
73
Len SM7BIC

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Topband  För daraym...@iowatelecom.net
Skickat: den 31 januari 2019 23:37
Till: cqtestk...@aol.com; topband@contesting.com
Ämne: Re: Topband: FT-8

There is simply no substitute for the real, direct, visceral connection one
has with the person on the other end with either CW or SSB modes.  I'll be 
in charge of the QSO, thank you.   Not my computer.

73. . . Dave, W0FLS

-Original Message-
From: cqtestk4xs--- via Topband
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 3:59 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: FT-8

This thread has been addressed on various reflectors.
I've tried it, made around 400 contacts or so, and found the mode pretty
boring.  Even with my pileups on FT-8 the mode left me cold.  I felt the
same way with RTTY...tried it and found it boring.  Why?  With CW SSB/AM I
felt a connection with the other person, someone sending with a key or a
person speaking to me.  With RTTY and especially FT-8 my machine is decoding
your machine.  Oh yeah, I know my XCVR is a machine and so is yours, but for
me it's not the same.
I understand why guys get all hot and bothered about the new mode, it gives
the guys who don't know CW a chance to work DX on a mode other than SSB and
gives the weaker signal guys a chance to work DX.  For the guys with bigger
stations it gives them a chance to work the rarer ones on tough bands like,
160 or 6.  Maybe that's why I'm not into FT-8, I've got a big station, and
can work CW.  Also, I've never been really into putting the new one in the
log as much as many guys are...I'm more of a contester.
If you want to work your pileups and/or work 300 countries on FT-8, that's
fine with me.  I'm not going to look down my nose at you but please don't
condescendingly  tell me I'm a dinosaur or refuse to accept new technology. 
I'm accepting it, I just don't want to be part of it.  No hard feelings.
Bill KH7XS/KH7B/K4XS
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Re: Topband: JA's came in droves today on 160

[Ralph Bellas]

Different entirely.  What is missing is the interaction between people.  I 
literally can call a station and go to the bathroom, returning to see if the 
computer worked him and I can log it. The technology is cool to hear weak 
signals, but it is not interactive yet.



SSB and AM are technologies, but used the same back and forth human 
communication.






From: Topband  on behalf of Steve Sacco NN4X 

Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 8:56:10 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: JA's came in droves today on 160

Ed -

I wasn't around back then, but I'd imagine the exact same thing was said
when CW began to replace spark gap, and when SSB began to supplant AM.

Just something to think about.

73,

Steve

NN4X

> 1. Re: JA's came in droves today on 160 (Edward Sawyer)
>
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 13:27:16 -0500
> From: "Edward Sawyer" 
> To: 
> Subject: Re: Topband: JA's came in droves today on 160
> Message-ID: <01cd01d4b992$982c2260$c8846720$@earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Such is the new trend.  No offense to KV4FZ whatsoever but if you provide
> the easy path.most will take it.  The only way to affect the "easy way out"
> is to not provide it.
>
>
>
> I remember year's ago doing CQ WW CW ABLP as C6ARS in 2001.  I ended the
> contest on 15M running a couple of hundred JAs. I thought, this is amazing
> because I am just as loud from W1 and I couldn't imagine having so many JA
> stations call.  Clearly they are much more DXers than full contesters - most
> of them.  Still feel that way today.  I have heard piles of JAs calling
> right before a contest only to dry up in the contest.
>
>
>
> Its fascinating that the above has now shifted to FT8 vs the more
> traditional modes in just DXing.  Herb, it would be a very interesting
> experiment to shift to CW mid pile-up and see if the group stays with you to
> catch the DX opening or does it dwindle to nothing.  I am guessing it goes
> to nothing despite the opening.  But would love to hear.
>
>
>
> FT8 is changing the "easiness factor" in DXing.  And like technology
> assisted driving, once that genie is out of the bottle it ain't never goin
> back.  Just try and find an actual stick shift in a new car - almost
> impossible.  Why?  It doesn't mesh with the computer driving the car.
>
>
>
> 73
>
>
>
> Ed  N1UR
>

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Re: Topband: JA's came in droves today on 160

[Steve Sacco NN4X]

Ed -

I wasn't around back then, but I'd imagine the exact same thing was said 
when CW began to replace spark gap, and when SSB began to supplant AM.


Just something to think about.

73,

Steve

NN4X


1. Re: JA's came in droves today on 160 (Edward Sawyer)



--

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 13:27:16 -0500
From: "Edward Sawyer" 
To: 
Subject: Re: Topband: JA's came in droves today on 160
Message-ID: <01cd01d4b992$982c2260$c8846720$@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="us-ascii"

Such is the new trend.  No offense to KV4FZ whatsoever but if you provide
the easy path.most will take it.  The only way to affect the "easy way out"
is to not provide it.

  


I remember year's ago doing CQ WW CW ABLP as C6ARS in 2001.  I ended the
contest on 15M running a couple of hundred JAs. I thought, this is amazing
because I am just as loud from W1 and I couldn't imagine having so many JA
stations call.  Clearly they are much more DXers than full contesters - most
of them.  Still feel that way today.  I have heard piles of JAs calling
right before a contest only to dry up in the contest.

  


Its fascinating that the above has now shifted to FT8 vs the more
traditional modes in just DXing.  Herb, it would be a very interesting
experiment to shift to CW mid pile-up and see if the group stays with you to
catch the DX opening or does it dwindle to nothing.  I am guessing it goes
to nothing despite the opening.  But would love to hear.

  


FT8 is changing the "easiness factor" in DXing.  And like technology
assisted driving, once that genie is out of the bottle it ain't never goin
back.  Just try and find an actual stick shift in a new car - almost
impossible.  Why?  It doesn't mesh with the computer driving the car.

  


73

  


Ed  N1UR



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Re: Topband: FT-8

[AB2E Darrell]

Hi all,
I agree with Tony K4QE and the others. Need human interaction or it ain't ham 
radio any more,.

Prior to Stephen Hawking's death, he declared the greatest threat to human 
existence will be AI

"The system goes on-line August 4th, 1997. Human decisions are removed from 
strategic defense.
Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m." 
from Terminator 2

"FT-8 became self-aware at ..."

73 Darrell Ab2E

From: Topband  on behalf of Anthony Scandurra 
via Topband 
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 6:18 PM
To: daraym...@iowatelecom.net
Cc: cqtestk...@aol.com; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: FT-8

AMEN!

TBDXC Member #91

https://www.tbdxc.net 

73, Tony K4QE

> On Jan 31, 2019, at 5:36 PM, daraym...@iowatelecom.net wrote:
>
> There is simply no substitute for the real, direct, visceral connection one 
> has with the person on the other end with either CW or SSB modes.  I'll be in 
> charge of the QSO, thank you.   Not my computer.
>
> 73. . . Dave, W0FLS
>
> -Original Message- From: cqtestk4xs--- via Topband
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 3:59 PM
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Topband: FT-8
>
> This thread has been addressed on various reflectors.
> I've tried it, made around 400 contacts or so, and found the mode pretty 
> boring.  Even with my pileups on FT-8 the mode left me cold.  I felt the same 
> way with RTTY...tried it and found it boring.  Why?  With CW SSB/AM I felt a 
> connection with the other person, someone sending with a key or a person 
> speaking to me.  With RTTY and especially FT-8 my machine is decoding your 
> machine.  Oh yeah, I know my XCVR is a machine and so is yours, but for me 
> it's not the same.
> I understand why guys get all hot and bothered about the new mode, it gives 
> the guys who don't know CW a chance to work DX on a mode other than SSB and 
> gives the weaker signal guys a chance to work DX.  For the guys with bigger 
> stations it gives them a chance to work the rarer ones on tough bands like, 
> 160 or 6.  Maybe that's why I'm not into FT-8, I've got a big station, and 
> can work CW.  Also, I've never been really into putting the new one in the 
> log as much as many guys are...I'm more of a contester.
> If you want to work your pileups and/or work 300 countries on FT-8, that's 
> fine with me.  I'm not going to look down my nose at you but please don't 
> condescendingly  tell me I'm a dinosaur or refuse to accept new technology. 
> I'm accepting it, I just don't want to be part of it.  No hard feelings.
> Bill KH7XS/KH7B/K4XS
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
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Re: Topband: FT-8

[Stephen Hawkins]

Dave,

On 1/31/19 4:36 PM, daraym...@iowatelecom.net wrote:
There is simply no substitute for the real, direct, visceral 
connection one has with the person on the other end with either CW or 
SSB modes. I'll be in charge of the QSO, thank you.   Not my computer.


73. . . Dave, W0FLS


My feelings exactly.

Steve

--
Stephen Hawkins NG0G
n...@arrl.net
73 49 111 01001001



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Re: Topband: FT-8

[Anthony Scandurra via Topband]

AMEN!

TBDXC Member #91

https://www.tbdxc.net 

73, Tony K4QE

> On Jan 31, 2019, at 5:36 PM, daraym...@iowatelecom.net wrote:
> 
> There is simply no substitute for the real, direct, visceral connection one 
> has with the person on the other end with either CW or SSB modes.  I'll be in 
> charge of the QSO, thank you.   Not my computer.
> 
> 73. . . Dave, W0FLS
> 
> -Original Message- From: cqtestk4xs--- via Topband
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 3:59 PM
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Topband: FT-8
> 
> This thread has been addressed on various reflectors.
> I've tried it, made around 400 contacts or so, and found the mode pretty 
> boring.  Even with my pileups on FT-8 the mode left me cold.  I felt the same 
> way with RTTY...tried it and found it boring.  Why?  With CW SSB/AM I felt a 
> connection with the other person, someone sending with a key or a person 
> speaking to me.  With RTTY and especially FT-8 my machine is decoding your 
> machine.  Oh yeah, I know my XCVR is a machine and so is yours, but for me 
> it's not the same.
> I understand why guys get all hot and bothered about the new mode, it gives 
> the guys who don't know CW a chance to work DX on a mode other than SSB and 
> gives the weaker signal guys a chance to work DX.  For the guys with bigger 
> stations it gives them a chance to work the rarer ones on tough bands like, 
> 160 or 6.  Maybe that's why I'm not into FT-8, I've got a big station, and 
> can work CW.  Also, I've never been really into putting the new one in the 
> log as much as many guys are...I'm more of a contester.
> If you want to work your pileups and/or work 300 countries on FT-8, that's 
> fine with me.  I'm not going to look down my nose at you but please don't 
> condescendingly  tell me I'm a dinosaur or refuse to accept new technology. 
> I'm accepting it, I just don't want to be part of it.  No hard feelings.
> Bill KH7XS/KH7B/K4XS
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector 
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Re: Topband: FT-8

[daraymond]

There is simply no substitute for the real, direct, visceral connection one 
has with the person on the other end with either CW or SSB modes.  I'll be 
in charge of the QSO, thank you.   Not my computer.


73. . . Dave, W0FLS

-Original Message- 
From: cqtestk4xs--- via Topband

Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 3:59 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: FT-8

This thread has been addressed on various reflectors.
I've tried it, made around 400 contacts or so, and found the mode pretty 
boring.  Even with my pileups on FT-8 the mode left me cold.  I felt the 
same way with RTTY...tried it and found it boring.  Why?  With CW SSB/AM I 
felt a connection with the other person, someone sending with a key or a 
person speaking to me.  With RTTY and especially FT-8 my machine is decoding 
your machine.  Oh yeah, I know my XCVR is a machine and so is yours, but for 
me it's not the same.
I understand why guys get all hot and bothered about the new mode, it gives 
the guys who don't know CW a chance to work DX on a mode other than SSB and 
gives the weaker signal guys a chance to work DX.  For the guys with bigger 
stations it gives them a chance to work the rarer ones on tough bands like, 
160 or 6.  Maybe that's why I'm not into FT-8, I've got a big station, and 
can work CW.  Also, I've never been really into putting the new one in the 
log as much as many guys are...I'm more of a contester.
If you want to work your pileups and/or work 300 countries on FT-8, that's 
fine with me.  I'm not going to look down my nose at you but please don't 
condescendingly  tell me I'm a dinosaur or refuse to accept new technology. 
I'm accepting it, I just don't want to be part of it.  No hard feelings.

Bill KH7XS/KH7B/K4XS
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Re: Topband: JA's came in droves today on 160

[Doug Renwick]

Ed,
I feel exactly the same way you do. Real DXing is operator (person) to
operator (person). FT8 is the same as using the internet to make a contact.
The end of amateur radio as it was intended.

Doug

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein 

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Edward
Sawyer
Sent: January-31-19 12:27 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: JA's came in droves today on 160

Such is the new trend.  No offense to KV4FZ whatsoever but if you provide
the easy path.most will take it.  The only way to affect the "easy way out"
is to not provide it.  

 

I remember year's ago doing CQ WW CW ABLP as C6ARS in 2001.  I ended the
contest on 15M running a couple of hundred JAs. I thought, this is amazing
because I am just as loud from W1 and I couldn't imagine having so many JA
stations call.  Clearly they are much more DXers than full contesters - most
of them.  Still feel that way today.  I have heard piles of JAs calling
right before a contest only to dry up in the contest.

 

Its fascinating that the above has now shifted to FT8 vs the more
traditional modes in just DXing.  Herb, it would be a very interesting
experiment to shift to CW mid pile-up and see if the group stays with you to
catch the DX opening or does it dwindle to nothing.  I am guessing it goes
to nothing despite the opening.  But would love to hear.

 

FT8 is changing the "easiness factor" in DXing.  And like technology
assisted driving, once that genie is out of the bottle it ain't never goin
back.  Just try and find an actual stick shift in a new car - almost
impossible.  Why?  It doesn't mesh with the computer driving the car.  

 

73

 

Ed  N1UR

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Re: Topband: JA's came in droves today on 160

[terry burge]

JWIT,

Or to put it, just what I think. Paul's description of how WSPR and FT8 can/is 
automatic points out what a lot of us object to. It would not be bad IF they 
had a separate class for DXCC for the digital modes just because it can be like 
'shooting fish in a barrel'. Some of us have work over 40 years to build a 
great DXCC total. Now FT8 comes along and apparently you can do it in a few 
weeks. We are at the bottom of the sunspot cycle but when it gets good see how 
long it takes to get a DXCC with FT8. People who have been around for a few 
cycles know the 'work the world with a wet noodle' expression can be valid up 
on 10 meters. So imagine what FT8 can do. Can that be compared to working them 
yourself by hand with CW or phone?

It just should not be considered when competing with CW or SSB. It is too easy. 
And automating contacts just threatens to destroy the whole basis of DXCC and 
perhaps DX'ing. Make a different class for the digital modes on DXCC at try to 
keep the challenge in ham radio. 

That's my feeling anyhow. 

Terry
KI7M

> On January 31, 2019 at 1:37 PM MICHAEL ST ANGELO  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> I don't understand why there is such uproar for FT-8 while some of those 
> people use DX Spotting while operating. Both are computer assisted 
> applications. we've been doing spotting for years. 
> 
> It's up to the user. I prefer CW but may use FT-8 in he future. The genie is 
> out of the bottle; you can't put it back in
> 
> My $0.02
> 
> Mike N2MS
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Topband: FT-8

[cqtestk4xs--- via Topband]

This thread has been addressed on various reflectors.
I've tried it, made around 400 contacts or so, and found the mode pretty 
boring.  Even with my pileups on FT-8 the mode left me cold.  I felt the same 
way with RTTY...tried it and found it boring.  Why?  With CW SSB/AM I felt a 
connection with the other person, someone sending with a key or a person 
speaking to me.  With RTTY and especially FT-8 my machine is decoding your 
machine.  Oh yeah, I know my XCVR is a machine and so is yours, but for me it's 
not the same.
I understand why guys get all hot and bothered about the new mode, it gives the 
guys who don't know CW a chance to work DX on a mode other than SSB and gives 
the weaker signal guys a chance to work DX.  For the guys with bigger stations 
it gives them a chance to work the rarer ones on tough bands like, 160 or 6.  
Maybe that's why I'm not into FT-8, I've got a big station, and can work CW.  
Also, I've never been really into putting the new one in the log as much as 
many guys are...I'm more of a contester.
If you want to work your pileups and/or work 300 countries on FT-8, that's fine 
with me.  I'm not going to look down my nose at you but please don't 
condescendingly  tell me I'm a dinosaur or refuse to accept new technology.  
I'm accepting it, I just don't want to be part of it.  No hard feelings.
Bill KH7XS/KH7B/K4XS
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Re: Topband: JA's came in droves today on 160

[Paul Christensen]

>"Soon it may be computers working computers with minimal operator
supervision."

Already happening with Windows macro commands.  Anyone who works me in the
sparse instances I'm on FT8 is making a fully-automated contact.  When one
FT8 contact is complete, macros start another.  I may be in the next room,
or I might be running an errand down the street while establishing required
control from my iPhone to satisfy FCC control rules.  If you're on the other
side of my FT8 QSO, you don't know it.  I can stroll back in the shack and
see if any rare DX stations were just logged by automation. As stations are
logged, I participate in...nothing.  I'm a late observer to the contact.
Or, I may just look at the log file as entries are also fully automated.
So, did I just push the ethics envelope into a dark place by taking it a
"teency" step further?   

WSJT-X is now *nearly* fully automatic.  If semi-automatic FT8 operation is
ethical, why not fully automatic?  The only difference is mouse clicks.  How
much effort was put into looking at a screen and clicking a mouse?  In a
short period of time, I could teach my 5-year old granddaughter how to make
FT8 contacts -- it's even easier than controlling her toy gaming devices. 

What's next for FT8?  I envision a meshed global network of regional servers
managing WSJT-X Tx frequencies as an intelligent frequency-hopping network.
It takes the existing FT8 Fox/Hound mode to a new, automated level.  The
server controls the Tx frequency on both ends of the link as a means to
efficiently manage QSOs to avoid QRM and of course other QSOs.  Here's how:


An op logs in to a regional FT8 server through a new WSJT-X connection menu
(akin to Yaesu System Fusion Wires-X).  The log-in is optional only to take
advantage of intelligent frequency hopping.  WSJT-X already deciphers all
activity within our FT8 Rx passband.  If it knows what's active within the
passband, it also knows what parts of the passband are *not* active.  If the
other station is also logged in, the server looks for unused Rx areas on
*both* ends of our WSJT-X software and analyses the passband while doing
this for a predetermined number of Tx/Rx cycles.  Let's say that after two
or three 15-sec. cycles of inactivity on a particular frequency the server
gives an "all clear" to hop to a new Tx frequency.  It's waiting for an all
clear to ensure there's no activity on either end before the hop occurs.  We
don't want to move to another FT8 frequency if it's already occupied on
either end.  The server is managing frequencies on both sides of the FT8
QSO.  We can still monitor what the server is doing by looking at the Tx and
Rx "goal posts" and override when necessary.  

What I'm describing is not new.  Automated frequency hopping has been viable
at least since WWII and used by DoD.  What is new is the potential
implementation into FT8 transmissions. The hooks are already there.  It's
just a matter of time before the two main developers do it -- or  if
ethics get in the way, others will.  

Paul, W9AC

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Re: Topband: JA's came in droves today on 160

[Herbert Schoenbohm]

Please also give credit for FT-8 occupying only a few Khz'a around 1840 and
compare this to a Top Band CW contest where it is at times difficult to
find a clear spot from 1800 to 1950 and even higher.  Could you imagine an
AM Topband contest as 10 stations each 6 to 10 Hhz wide would pretty much
do it? My Globe Scout would not have stood a change.
Herb. KV4FZ

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 3:40 PM Edward Sawyer 
wrote:

> Hi Jay.  The IP address is actually tied to your device and is picked up
> and identified on the internet.  My point was that the machine deserves the
> credit for the DXCC.  That’s all.
>
>
>
> I would totally agree with you that if all this was about was RTTY
> morphing to FT8 then its not very different.  However, FT8 is pulling on
> other modes clearly based on this dialog.
>
>
>
> At the end of the day, some people care whether they are part of the
> action, and some people don’t.  Those of us that do seem to have a pretty
> universal distaste for FT-8.
>
>
>
> 73
>
>
>
> Ed  N1UR
>
>
>
> *From:* jayb1...@optonline.net [mailto:jayb1...@optonline.net]
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 31, 2019 2:35 PM
> *To:* Edward Sawyer; 'Herbert Schoenbohm'
> *Cc:* 'TopBand List'
> *Subject:* Re: Topband: JA's came in droves today on 160
>
>
>
> *Ed – the “IP address” and the internet have nothing to do with the FT8
> mode other than that’s how you initially download the WSJT-X program...so
> why is the transition from RTTY to FT8 any different than the transition
> from AM to SSB again ?*
>
> *  jay ny2ny*
>
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: "Low-Band-DXing"

[Mike Waters]

I loved reading it too, but that is just not going to happen. John has
already stated that.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 1:48 PM F Z_Bruce  I wish John Devoldere would come out with another, updated "Low-Band
> DXing" handbook. I am remembering the hours of wonderful reading.
>
> 73
> Bruce-k1fz
>
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Topband: "Low-Band-DXing"

[F Z_Bruce]

I wish John Devoldere would come out with another, updated "Low-Band DXing" 
handbook. I am remembering the hours of wonderful reading.

73
Bruce-k1fz
   
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: JA's came in droves today on 160

[Edward Sawyer]

Hi Jay.  The IP address is actually tied to your device and is picked up and 
identified on the internet.  My point was that the machine deserves the credit 
for the DXCC.  That’s all.

 

I would totally agree with you that if all this was about was RTTY morphing to 
FT8 then its not very different.  However, FT8 is pulling on other modes 
clearly based on this dialog.

 

At the end of the day, some people care whether they are part of the action, 
and some people don’t.  Those of us that do seem to have a pretty universal 
distaste for FT-8.

 

73

 

Ed  N1UR

 

From: jayb1...@optonline.net [mailto:jayb1...@optonline.net] 
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 2:35 PM
To: Edward Sawyer; 'Herbert Schoenbohm'
Cc: 'TopBand List'
Subject: Re: Topband: JA's came in droves today on 160

 

Ed – the “IP address” and the internet have nothing to do with the FT8 mode 
other than that’s how you initially download the WSJT-X program...so why is the 
transition from RTTY to FT8 any different than the transition from AM to SSB 
again ?

  jay ny2ny

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: JA's came in droves today on 160

[JAYB1943]

Ed – the “IP address” and the internet have nothing to do with the FT8 mode 
other than that’s how you initially download the WSJT-X program...so why is 
the transition from RTTY to FT8 any different than the transition from AM to 
SSB again ?
  jay ny2ny 
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: JA's came in droves today on 160

[Herbert Schoenbohm]

What was interesting to follow was when Central Electronic came out with
the first SSB unit and Hallicrafters followed.  Art Collins was right
behind as his SAC contract needed more efficient and reliable airborne
voice communications globally,  As a ham, he didn't forget us and market
the KWM-1 series.  Heathkit really could not do much on SSB and Leo
Meyerson resisted so did E.F Johnson with signs at the hamfest "AM
Forever," and the businesses folded eventually. Ironically all of these
companies that made AM ham equipment were all in the midwest within a few
hundred miles of each other. And then came then the Japanese invasion of
Icom, Yaesu, and Kenwood transceivers and it was all over for AM.now I sit
in front of an exotic Flex 6600M wondering if I will ever learn how to
operate it.

Herb Schoenbohmm KV4FZ

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 3:06 PM Edward Sawyer 
wrote:

> To each his own Herb.  Nothing against you.  But last I checked – AM
> morphing to SSB never eliminated the person with the voice and the ears.
> It just made what was happening more efficient.  If the only affect here
> was RTTY going down the toilet because of FT-8, I agree with you.  But when
> ultimately – its computer to computer, the IP address should get the DXCC
> award no?
>
>
>
> Ed  N1UR
>
>
>
> *From:* Herbert Schoenbohm [mailto:herbert.schoenb...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 31, 2019 2:02 PM
> *To:* Edward Sawyer
> *Cc:* TopBand List
> *Subject:* Re: Topband: JA's came in droves today on 160
>
>
>
> Exactly Ed, Just as SSB did to AM and digital modes are doing to RTTY.
> Soon it may be computers working computers with minimal operator
> supervision.  Right now on FT-8 when statins call my CQ they are answered
> and sent a signal report automatically and the logging is done with a
> single point and click. CW Maybe Kim will allow a fully automated FT-8
> application running 24/7 on the 800-foot high rise building on downtown
> Pyongyang.  Still, CW, depending on the operator, seems to have the
> advantage.  Except during a contest, most of the 160-meter DX has moved to
> 1840 and more will follow assuredly.
>
>
>
> Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 2:28 PM Edward Sawyer 
> wrote:
>
> Such is the new trend.  No offense to KV4FZ whatsoever but if you provide
> the easy path.most will take it.  The only way to affect the "easy way out"
> is to not provide it.
>
>
>
> I remember year's ago doing CQ WW CW ABLP as C6ARS in 2001.  I ended the
> contest on 15M running a couple of hundred JAs. I thought, this is amazing
> because I am just as loud from W1 and I couldn't imagine having so many JA
> stations call.  Clearly they are much more DXers than full contesters -
> most
> of them.  Still feel that way today.  I have heard piles of JAs calling
> right before a contest only to dry up in the contest.
>
>
>
> Its fascinating that the above has now shifted to FT8 vs the more
> traditional modes in just DXing.  Herb, it would be a very interesting
> experiment to shift to CW mid pile-up and see if the group stays with you
> to
> catch the DX opening or does it dwindle to nothing.  I am guessing it goes
> to nothing despite the opening.  But would love to hear.
>
>
>
> FT8 is changing the "easiness factor" in DXing.  And like technology
> assisted driving, once that genie is out of the bottle it ain't never goin
> back.  Just try and find an actual stick shift in a new car - almost
> impossible.  Why?  It doesn't mesh with the computer driving the car.
>
>
>
> 73
>
>
>
> Ed  N1UR
>
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
>
_
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Re: Topband: JA's came in droves today on 160

[Edward Sawyer]

To each his own Herb.  Nothing against you.  But last I checked – AM morphing 
to SSB never eliminated the person with the voice and the ears.  It just made 
what was happening more efficient.  If the only affect here was RTTY going down 
the toilet because of FT-8, I agree with you.  But when ultimately – its 
computer to computer, the IP address should get the DXCC award no?

 

Ed  N1UR

 

From: Herbert Schoenbohm [mailto:herbert.schoenb...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 2:02 PM
To: Edward Sawyer
Cc: TopBand List
Subject: Re: Topband: JA's came in droves today on 160

 

Exactly Ed, Just as SSB did to AM and digital modes are doing to RTTY.  Soon it 
may be computers working computers with minimal operator supervision.  Right 
now on FT-8 when statins call my CQ they are answered and sent a signal report 
automatically and the logging is done with a single point and click. CW Maybe 
Kim will allow a fully automated FT-8 application running 24/7 on the 800-foot 
high rise building on downtown Pyongyang.  Still, CW, depending on the 
operator, seems to have the advantage.  Except during a contest, most of the 
160-meter DX has moved to 1840 and more will follow assuredly.

 

Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ

 

 

 

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 2:28 PM Edward Sawyer  wrote:

Such is the new trend.  No offense to KV4FZ whatsoever but if you provide
the easy path.most will take it.  The only way to affect the "easy way out"
is to not provide it.  



I remember year's ago doing CQ WW CW ABLP as C6ARS in 2001.  I ended the
contest on 15M running a couple of hundred JAs. I thought, this is amazing
because I am just as loud from W1 and I couldn't imagine having so many JA
stations call.  Clearly they are much more DXers than full contesters - most
of them.  Still feel that way today.  I have heard piles of JAs calling
right before a contest only to dry up in the contest.



Its fascinating that the above has now shifted to FT8 vs the more
traditional modes in just DXing.  Herb, it would be a very interesting
experiment to shift to CW mid pile-up and see if the group stays with you to
catch the DX opening or does it dwindle to nothing.  I am guessing it goes
to nothing despite the opening.  But would love to hear.



FT8 is changing the "easiness factor" in DXing.  And like technology
assisted driving, once that genie is out of the bottle it ain't never goin
back.  Just try and find an actual stick shift in a new car - almost
impossible.  Why?  It doesn't mesh with the computer driving the car.  



73



Ed  N1UR

_
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Re: Topband: JA's came in droves today on 160

[Herbert Schoenbohm]

Exactly Ed, Just as SSB did to AM and digital modes are doing to RTTY.
Soon it may be computers working computers with minimal operator
supervision.  Right now on FT-8 when statins call my CQ they are answered
and sent a signal report automatically and the logging is done with a
single point and click. CW Maybe Kim will allow a fully automated FT-8
application running 24/7 on the 800-foot high rise building on downtown
Pyongyang.  Still, CW, depending on the operator, seems to have the
advantage.  Except during a contest, most of the 160-meter DX has moved to
1840 and more will follow assuredly.

Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ



On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 2:28 PM Edward Sawyer 
wrote:

> Such is the new trend.  No offense to KV4FZ whatsoever but if you provide
> the easy path.most will take it.  The only way to affect the "easy way out"
> is to not provide it.
>
>
>
> I remember year's ago doing CQ WW CW ABLP as C6ARS in 2001.  I ended the
> contest on 15M running a couple of hundred JAs. I thought, this is amazing
> because I am just as loud from W1 and I couldn't imagine having so many JA
> stations call.  Clearly they are much more DXers than full contesters -
> most
> of them.  Still feel that way today.  I have heard piles of JAs calling
> right before a contest only to dry up in the contest.
>
>
>
> Its fascinating that the above has now shifted to FT8 vs the more
> traditional modes in just DXing.  Herb, it would be a very interesting
> experiment to shift to CW mid pile-up and see if the group stays with you
> to
> catch the DX opening or does it dwindle to nothing.  I am guessing it goes
> to nothing despite the opening.  But would love to hear.
>
>
>
> FT8 is changing the "easiness factor" in DXing.  And like technology
> assisted driving, once that genie is out of the bottle it ain't never goin
> back.  Just try and find an actual stick shift in a new car - almost
> impossible.  Why?  It doesn't mesh with the computer driving the car.
>
>
>
> 73
>
>
>
> Ed  N1UR
>
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
_
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Re: Topband: JA's came in droves today on 160

[Edward Sawyer]

Such is the new trend.  No offense to KV4FZ whatsoever but if you provide
the easy path.most will take it.  The only way to affect the "easy way out"
is to not provide it.  

 

I remember year's ago doing CQ WW CW ABLP as C6ARS in 2001.  I ended the
contest on 15M running a couple of hundred JAs. I thought, this is amazing
because I am just as loud from W1 and I couldn't imagine having so many JA
stations call.  Clearly they are much more DXers than full contesters - most
of them.  Still feel that way today.  I have heard piles of JAs calling
right before a contest only to dry up in the contest.

 

Its fascinating that the above has now shifted to FT8 vs the more
traditional modes in just DXing.  Herb, it would be a very interesting
experiment to shift to CW mid pile-up and see if the group stays with you to
catch the DX opening or does it dwindle to nothing.  I am guessing it goes
to nothing despite the opening.  But would love to hear.

 

FT8 is changing the "easiness factor" in DXing.  And like technology
assisted driving, once that genie is out of the bottle it ain't never goin
back.  Just try and find an actual stick shift in a new car - almost
impossible.  Why?  It doesn't mesh with the computer driving the car.  

 

73

 

Ed  N1UR

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector