Re: Topband: CQ Zones

[List Mail]

Um, I meant 34 CQ Zones of course!

Sent from Mail for Windows 10


I’m hoping to improve on my 143 countries on Top, and remembering the topic of 
this thread, 43 CQ Zones.

73, Luke VK3HJ
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: final from me -- Remotes

[Jim Brown]

On 3/10/2021 7:30 PM, GEORGE WALLNER wrote:
On remotes: When somebody builds a station in Haiti and operates it 
remotely, he has just enabled people to work Haiti, which may not happen 
otherwise. As long as there is no pretense of something else, I think 
its great.


Me too. Remote stations and their control systems can be difficult to 
build. What I don't condone, and view as cheating (even though badly 
conceived ARRL Rules allow it) is to remotely operate (or travel to) a 
station in ME to work EU countries on topband that you can't work from 
your QTH in CO or CA and submit them for DXCC.


73, Jim K9YC


_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: FT8 etc.

[Cecil]

Nice post!

Cecil
K5DL

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 10, 2021, at 5:58 PM, Steve HA0DU  wrote:
> 
> Gentlemen,
> 
> Amateur radio is supposed to be a hobby. FUN.
> 
> What we see is TECHNICAL DEVELOPMENT! It certainly changes the hobby, but it 
> should not change the fun. I read my license, but I can't find that FTx modes 
> MUST BE USED EXCLUSIVELY.
> 
> 45 years ago we did RTTY contests with an old RFT pagewriter, not even 
> punched tape, all transmissions by hand. Was it fun? YES. Do I want to do it 
> again? Of course not.
> 
> 45 years ago I did not have a transceiver. I did have an old military surplus 
> receiver and a homemade transmitter. CW only, 80/40. Was it fun? YES. Do I 
> want to use it again? Of course not.
> 
> 45 years ago (even 5 years ago) I wrote my contacts in a paper log. Do I 
> still have them? YES. Did I type up all QSOs in a computer file (when 
> computers became available)? YES.
> 
> 38 years ago VK0CW used a split of 25 kHz on 20 CW, so I had to turn the VFO 
> of the FT250 (aka Tempo One) five times right to TX, then five times left to 
> RX. Luckily I made the contact. Was it fun? YES. Do I want it back? Of course 
> not.
> 
> Just like in every other aspect of life, technology developed a LOT. Take 
> advantage of it!
> 
> Denying development is not what ham radio operators are (or should be) famous 
> about! Computers are everywhere. We are driving computers on four wheels. 
> Modern SDR radios are more or less computers. These are facts, even is some 
> of us do not like them.
> 
> Take my example. I work as a technical translator at home. Two screens are 
> connected to my computer (yes, computer aided translation is easier). On the 
> main screen I do the work. On the second screen there are some ham programs 
> running. When I see something interesting on the cluster or HamSpots. or 
> wherever, I take a look. If it is digital, it is convenient because I find a 
> TX frequency, I click on the call, and the computer will control my radio to 
> try to work the other station. If it is CW or SSB, I grab the key or the mic, 
> and try to work the other station. No question lost time from work is 
> significantly more if I have to use my hand to TX CW or hold the microphone 
> :).
> 
> Digital modes also opened EME for a lot more people. Yes, information 
> exchange is rather limited, but we still have many other chances to chat - 
> use them!
> 
> 73/DX
> Steve HA0DU
> 
> 
> -- 
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Re: Topband: CQ Zones

[W0MU Mike Fatchett]

Seems like it might be time to remove or moderate people on this list.  
This is a bit over the top.


On 3/10/2021 11:59 AM, ok1tn wrote:

VA3DX
pity you have such a nice callsign. Martin is a very erudite technician and
a perfect operator. I don't even think you know what you're saying and you
should consider your words.

-
73 Slavek Zeler
www.lc-variable.eu
www.okdxf.eu



_
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Re: Topband: final from me -- Remotes

[W7TMT - Patrick]

George,

I'm looking forward to my 2nd C6AGU RIB (Radio In a Box) QSO in the upcoming 
Spring STEW using your teams amazing example of remote operation technologies. 
I'll be using my 80' vertical totally surrounded by the saltwater of Puget 
Sound near Seattle. Thanks again for my first RIB Q in 2020 ARRL 160. Keep up 
the great remote station development work. Really bleeding edge stuff. Congrats 
to you and the team on the amazing progress.

73
Patrick, W7TMT

-Original Message-
From: Topband  On Behalf Of 
GEORGE WALLNER
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 19:31
To: Hans Hjelmström ; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: final from me -- Remotes

Hans,

On remotes: When somebody builds a station in Haiti and operates it remotely, 
he has just enabled people to work Haiti, which may not happen otherwise. As 
long as there is no pretense of something else, I think its great.
73,
George,
AA7JV/C6AGU



On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 21:39:49 +0100
  Hans Hjelmström  wrote:
> Hi folks
>
> Been reading all sayings about FT8/FT4-business .
> MYSELF  I will NEVER ever use FT4 or FT 8. Been active Ham-operator 
> since 1961. I am now 75 years old,and still active,and dx-expeditioner.
>
> I say, this PC to PC business kills the challenge of our hobby.
> I agree 100% with OK1RR and OK1TN  and SP2XF writing.AND others.
>
> Of course, IF you like FT 4/FT 8 ,its up to you to use it.
> If I do NOT like it, it must be acceptable for me to tell other Hams , 
> I feel I do NOT like it. And I will NEVER use it.
>
> In Sweden ,I know ,,,a LOT of Hams ( old-timers mainly ,but also new 
> Hams) , that has stopped Ham-radio and sold all their equipment because of 
> this PC to PC play game.
>
> WHY.  Well, they have always been chasing dx, by looking for hours , 
> and with their own ears finally heard the weak dx, and they called the 
> dx on CW/SSB/RY using their challenge and equipment built during many 
> many years. And when not looking for expeditions, they have made nice chat on 
> CW/SSB/RY with other Hams world-wide, talking and making social 
> connection.Never mind if they have a big or smaller station.
>
> How can we say its Ham-radio, when a dx-operator is using FT8/FT 4 and 
> making so called QSO:s on two or even more  ( up to 3 bands ) at the 
> same time. YES, its technically super, BUT is this what we want ???
>
> I think ARRL/dxcc should make a separate class for this FT 8/FT 4 
> business. NOT accept it for BAND/DXCC. It is NOT fair to let it 
> compete with CW/SSB/RY for BAND/DXCC.
>
>Finally ,last thing,why I do NOT like it. Before a dx-expedition were 
>on 6 or 160  meters during ALL expedition.NOW they share it with FT8/FT 
>4 and  we have less time to do a real QSO. AND for no expedition, I prefer to  
>make a QSO and exchange information,and try to learn about the other person I 
>work. Not just to click on a yellow line.
> I will NEVER send a DONATION for a FT8 -expedition.
>
> Last outside this FT 8-business. I also must say, that this 
> remote-story is under NO control. YES, of course ,you can build a 
> station less than
> 150 kilometers or so from your home.PERFECT.  BUT build a station in 
> Haiti and sit and operate it from NYC, THATS really killing the 
> pleasure to work a new one.
>
> Thanks for letting me give my feelings. I will NOT react on any replies.
>
>From MAY until AUGUST I will be around 50098 CW ( ONLY ) looking  for 
>dx I can hear in my ears. Last season I worked 7 stations in California  
>( info for K9YC ).So IF there had been no FT8-business, I am sure I had  
>worked at least 20.One day there was a 4 hours opening to all over USA 
>,east to west, and I worked 25 stations in 4 hours. IF it had been before all 
>of  these Hams were on FT8 ,I had worked 100……...
>
> Kind regards
>
> SM6CVX   ( Since 1961 )   Hans
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband 
> Reflector

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Re: Topband: final from me -- Remotes

[GEORGE WALLNER]

Hans,

On remotes: When somebody builds a station in Haiti and operates it 
remotely, he has just enabled people to work Haiti, which may not happen 
otherwise. As long as there is no pretense of something else, I think its 
great.

73,
George,
AA7JV/C6AGU



On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 21:39:49 +0100
 Hans Hjelmström  wrote:

Hi folks

Been reading all sayings about FT8/FT4-business
.
MYSELF  I will NEVER ever use FT4 or FT 8. Been active Ham-operator since
1961. I am now 75 years old,and still active,and dx-expeditioner.

I say, this PC to PC business kills the challenge of our hobby.
I agree 100% with OK1RR and OK1TN  and SP2XF writing.AND others.

Of course, IF you like FT 4/FT 8 ,its up to you to use it.
If I do NOT like it, it must be acceptable for me to tell other Hams ,
I feel I do NOT like it. And I will NEVER use it.

In Sweden ,I know ,,,a LOT of Hams ( old-timers mainly ,but also new Hams) ,
that has stopped Ham-radio and sold all their equipment because of this PC to PC play game. 


WHY.  Well, they have always been chasing dx, by looking for hours ,
and with their own ears finally heard the weak dx, and they called the dx
on CW/SSB/RY using their challenge and equipment built during many many
years. And when not looking for expeditions, they have made nice chat on 
CW/SSB/RY with other Hams world-wide, talking and making social 
connection.Never mind if they have a big or smaller station.

How can we say its Ham-radio, when a dx-operator is using FT8/FT 4 
and making so called QSO:s on two or even more  ( up to 3 bands ) at

the same time. YES, its technically super, BUT is this what we want ???

I think ARRL/dxcc should make a separate class for this FT 8/FT 4 
business. NOT accept it for BAND/DXCC. It is NOT fair to let it compete
with CW/SSB/RY for BAND/DXCC.  


Finally ,last thing,why I do NOT like it. Before a dx-expedition were on 6 or 
160  meters during ALL expedition.NOW they share it with FT8/FT 4 and
we have less time to do a real QSO. AND for no expedition, I prefer to 
make a QSO and exchange information,and try to learn about the other person I work. Not just to click on a yellow line.

I will NEVER send a DONATION for a FT8 -expedition.

Last outside this FT 8-business. I also must say, that this remote-story 
is under NO control. YES, of course ,you can build a station less

than
150 kilometers or so from your home.PERFECT.  BUT build a station in
Haiti and sit and operate it from NYC, THATS really killing the pleasure
to work a new one.

Thanks for letting me give my feelings. I will NOT react on any replies.

From MAY until AUGUST I will be around 50098 CW ( ONLY ) looking
for dx I can hear in my ears. Last season I worked 7 stations in California
( info for K9YC ).So IF there had been no FT8-business, I am sure I had
worked at least 20.One day there was a 4 hours opening to all over USA ,east to 
west, and I worked 25 stations in 4 hours. IF it had been before all of
these Hams were on FT8 ,I had worked 100……...

Kind regards

SM6CVX   ( Since 1961 )   Hans
_
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Re: Topband: FT8 etc.

[Hugh Valentine]

Interesting how people answer their own questions as if a survey had been sent 
and the “Answers” were from the census”.

I really don’t care…just giving my take on these comments.

Ham radio, like Politics, has taken a different turn.
Life is too short to make a big deal of these things.
“Don’t worry…..Be Happy….”

Val

N4RJ

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Steve HA0DU
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 6:58 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: FT8 etc.

Gentlemen,

Amateur radio is supposed to be a hobby. FUN.

What we see is TECHNICAL DEVELOPMENT! It certainly changes the hobby,
but it should not change the fun. I read my license, but I can't find
that FTx modes MUST BE USED EXCLUSIVELY.

45 years ago we did RTTY contests with an old RFT pagewriter, not even
punched tape, all transmissions by hand. Was it fun? YES. Do I want to
do it again? Of course not.

45 years ago I did not have a transceiver. I did have an old military
surplus receiver and a homemade transmitter. CW only, 80/40. Was it fun?
YES. Do I want to use it again? Of course not.

45 years ago (even 5 years ago) I wrote my contacts in a paper log. Do I
still have them? YES. Did I type up all QSOs in a computer file (when
computers became available)? YES.

38 years ago VK0CW used a split of 25 kHz on 20 CW, so I had to turn the
VFO of the FT250 (aka Tempo One) five times right to TX, then five times
left to RX. Luckily I made the contact. Was it fun? YES. Do I want it
back? Of course not.

Just like in every other aspect of life, technology developed a LOT.
Take advantage of it!

Denying development is not what ham radio operators are (or should be)
famous about! Computers are everywhere. We are driving computers on four
wheels. Modern SDR radios are more or less computers. These are facts,
even is some of us do not like them.

Take my example. I work as a technical translator at home. Two screens
are connected to my computer (yes, computer aided translation is
easier). On the main screen I do the work. On the second screen there
are some ham programs running. When I see something interesting on the
cluster or HamSpots. or wherever, I take a look. If it is digital, it is
convenient because I find a TX frequency, I click on the call, and the
computer will control my radio to try to work the other station. If it
is CW or SSB, I grab the key or the mic, and try to work the other
station. No question lost time from work is significantly more if I have
to use my hand to TX CW or hold the microphone :).

Digital modes also opened EME for a lot more people. Yes, information
exchange is rather limited, but we still have many other chances to chat
- use them!

73/DX
Steve HA0DU


--
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Re: Topband: removing ft8 from dxcc waz was etc

[Jim Brown]

On 3/10/2021 9:48 AM, Martin Kratoska wrote:
The operator can't do anything other than clicking to station wanted to 
QSO.


This ignores the fact that ham radio is a TECHNICAL hobby, and part of 
the fun (achievement) involves mastering that technology, everything 
from antennas to rigs to interfacing to station building to propagation.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Topband: Portable transmit antenna suggestions?

[n4is]

Hi Luke

The best signal ever on 160m from that part of the world was possible  and only 
possible with the vertical IN the salt water. The radials making electrical 
contact with the water. Pleas talk with George, he developed a simple vertical 
in U shape ., good for 80m and 160m, he used it in Chesterfield. 
> http://www.tx3a.com/

Whatever you do , even 43FT ( 12m) high like the one George used on KH1 will 
work very well IN the water , not close to the water, or near the water.

73's
JC
N4IS



-Original Message-
From: Topband  On Behalf Of 
List Mail
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 6:38 PM
To: Rodman, David ; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Portable transmit antenna suggestions?

I’m also interested to follow this discussion, as I’ll be activating two VK9 
entities later this year. My experience is with  Inverted-L antenna, on Norfolk 
Island we used a big Norfolk Island Pine tree for support, and Mellish Reef an 
18 m SpiderPole, which both worked well.

73, Luke VK3HJ

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Rodman, David
Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2021 10:37 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Portable transmit antenna suggestions?

My group is planning a Caribbean trip next year for one of the CW contests.  If 
anyone has some ideas on design or deployment of temporary antennas for DX 
(160m or any low band actually), it would be helpful as we are in early 
planning.  If you have done this before, luggage is the preferred method to 
bring on the trip.  Please feel free to comment directly to me if you feel that 
bandwidth is not appropriate for this group.  Thanks.  (rodmanatbuffalodotedu)


---
David J Rodman MD
Assistant Clinical Professor
Department of Ophthalmology
SUNY/Buffalo

Office 716-857-8654
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Re: Topband: Condx to Asia on TB

[VE6WZ Steve]

Hi Dave,

Great to see the band opening up for you into Asia. I really hope it’s a sign 
of better conditions to come, but I think ‘ol Sol is getting a bit active these 
days!  With the recurring waves of geo-mag disturbances, I fear that the 27 day 
rotation might keep things muted for a while!

It has been exactly 4 weeks to the day since my last trans-polar EU QSO!!
Last night I was hopeful some signals from EU would squeak over the pole, but 
no luck.
Maybe tonight. Like your JA path, much of EU for me is almost directly over the 
pole so the AU and solar wind really needs to cooperate. 

I don’t complain, since this season since August I have logged 1,413 EU, with 
338 unique call signs. All on CW. 

Here is the latest Ve6wz “Top
EU repeat QSO list” for this winter. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NkeLe_3-LpQudAd4KZsvikWwA5ggp0S4/view?usp=drivesdk

I hope everyone enjoys the openings and gets on the band and calls CQ!
Remember...”if no one calls CQ, no one is going to work anybody”!

73, de steve ve6wz

> Conditions this morning from Midwest NA to Asia were, perhaps, the best 
> of the season so far (such as it is).  TB regular Kim/HL5IVL was in here 
> with a signal peaking honest 579.  Ed/KH2L was 579.  Mike/KL7QOW was 
> pounding in here 589/599.  I worked two first time JA callsigns.  
> Conditions last night for EU sunrise were also well above average.  It's 
> nice to see some good prop and life in the band after six weeks of 
> dismal conditions. 73. . . Dave, W0FLS
_
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Topband: FT8 etc.

[Steve HA0DU]

Gentlemen,

Amateur radio is supposed to be a hobby. FUN.

What we see is TECHNICAL DEVELOPMENT! It certainly changes the hobby, 
but it should not change the fun. I read my license, but I can't find 
that FTx modes MUST BE USED EXCLUSIVELY.


45 years ago we did RTTY contests with an old RFT pagewriter, not even 
punched tape, all transmissions by hand. Was it fun? YES. Do I want to 
do it again? Of course not.


45 years ago I did not have a transceiver. I did have an old military 
surplus receiver and a homemade transmitter. CW only, 80/40. Was it fun? 
YES. Do I want to use it again? Of course not.


45 years ago (even 5 years ago) I wrote my contacts in a paper log. Do I 
still have them? YES. Did I type up all QSOs in a computer file (when 
computers became available)? YES.


38 years ago VK0CW used a split of 25 kHz on 20 CW, so I had to turn the 
VFO of the FT250 (aka Tempo One) five times right to TX, then five times 
left to RX. Luckily I made the contact. Was it fun? YES. Do I want it 
back? Of course not.


Just like in every other aspect of life, technology developed a LOT. 
Take advantage of it!


Denying development is not what ham radio operators are (or should be) 
famous about! Computers are everywhere. We are driving computers on four 
wheels. Modern SDR radios are more or less computers. These are facts, 
even is some of us do not like them.


Take my example. I work as a technical translator at home. Two screens 
are connected to my computer (yes, computer aided translation is 
easier). On the main screen I do the work. On the second screen there 
are some ham programs running. When I see something interesting on the 
cluster or HamSpots. or wherever, I take a look. If it is digital, it is 
convenient because I find a TX frequency, I click on the call, and the 
computer will control my radio to try to work the other station. If it 
is CW or SSB, I grab the key or the mic, and try to work the other 
station. No question lost time from work is significantly more if I have 
to use my hand to TX CW or hold the microphone :).


Digital modes also opened EME for a lot more people. Yes, information 
exchange is rather limited, but we still have many other chances to chat 
- use them!


73/DX
Steve HA0DU


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Re: Topband: CQ Zones

[List Mail]

Ham Radio is definitely no “level playing field”!

I live on a 100 ac farm, and have a decent set of antennas. I am just finishing 
up an almost Quarterwave vertical (35 m) tower for 160 m, with plans for an 
offset wire for 80 m. There are Beverages for 6 directions too. I’m making the 
most of it while I can!

I’m hoping to improve on my 143 countries on Top, and remembering the topic of 
this thread, 43 CQ Zones.

73, Luke VK3HJ

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Jim Thomson
Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2021 3:38 AM
To: TopBand List
Subject: Topband: CQ Zones

You folks using CW have a HUGE advantage over the  SSB  operator. 
And  folks using a remote  RX  have a  bigger advantage over everybody.
And hams, who live on  5-10 acres  out in the bushhave a huge advantage
over us mere mortals on postage stamp sized  city lots, surrounded by noise in 
all directions.

So its all relative really.   Relative to what an individual can do with what 
they have. 
When somebody has  200-250 countries on 160m...and lives on 20 acres  out in 
the bush,
complete  with beverages  pointed in all directions, and a S1  noise level 
to be honest,  I  am 
not overly impressed. Its  what  I would expect  with their better  
setup..and location. 

The only thing that counts, is how well one  does with the cards you are dealt 
with.  The  folks
with the multi tower  setups, and stacked arrays, that  rack  up huge scores in 
a contest,  good luck
to them.   The rest of us cant even begin to compete with that, so why bother. 

Amateur radio is  like   having  40   cars on a race track,  ranging in 
performance from  A-Z.   We  can 
all  guess the  expected results, with great accuracy.   Its  laughable really. 
 You  can only do so much.

Jim   VE7RF 
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Re: Topband: Portable transmit antenna suggestions?

[List Mail]

I’m also interested to follow this discussion, as I’ll be activating two VK9 
entities later this year. My experience is with  Inverted-L antenna, on Norfolk 
Island we used a big Norfolk Island Pine tree for support, and Mellish Reef an 
18 m SpiderPole, which both worked well.

73, Luke VK3HJ

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Rodman, David
Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2021 10:37 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Portable transmit antenna suggestions?

My group is planning a Caribbean trip next year for one of the CW contests.  If 
anyone has some ideas on design or deployment of temporary antennas for DX 
(160m or any low band actually), it would be helpful as we are in early 
planning.  If you have done this before, luggage is the preferred method to 
bring on the trip.  Please feel free to comment directly to me if you feel that 
bandwidth is not appropriate for this group.  Thanks.  (rodmanatbuffalodotedu)


---
David J Rodman MD
Assistant Clinical Professor
Department of Ophthalmology
SUNY/Buffalo

Office 716-857-8654
_
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Re: Topband: final from me

[Renee K6FSB]

Hans et all-
I kinda mirror Hans, myself having been licensed since 1967 and having 
to learn/do things the old/hard way which makes things sweeter when they 
happenthe pc to pc is not my thing and never willkinda takes the 
fun and skill out of the hobby...I even refuse to even have a computer 
in the radio room,  that belongs in the office IMHO.
I had started the move down to 630M until all the pc stuffso I have 
been on less and less which is most likely a mistake and I should be on 
CW more to compensate for the pc folks
I am not going to berate the pc folks nor will I promote pc stuff. 
regarding remotes well I will say nothing since I can say nothing nice. 
I am too old school.
As a rule there should be room for all of us to find our place of 
enjoyment without infringing on others and I will try to live by such.

Renée, K6FSB

On 3/10/21 12:39 PM, Hans Hjelmström wrote:

Hi folks

Been reading all sayings about FT8/FT4-business
.
MYSELF  I will NEVER ever use FT4 or FT 8. Been active Ham-operator since
1961. I am now 75 years old,and still active,and dx-expeditioner.

I say, this PC to PC business kills the challenge of our hobby.
I agree 100% with OK1RR and OK1TN  and SP2XF writing.AND others.

Of course, IF you like FT 4/FT 8 ,its up to you to use it.
If I do NOT like it, it must be acceptable for me to tell other Hams ,
I feel I do NOT like it. And I will NEVER use it.

In Sweden ,I know ,,,a LOT of Hams ( old-timers mainly ,but also new Hams) ,
that has stopped Ham-radio and sold all their equipment because of this PC to 
PC play game.

WHY.  Well, they have always been chasing dx, by looking for hours ,
and with their own ears finally heard the weak dx, and they called the dx
on CW/SSB/RY using their challenge and equipment built during many many
years. And when not looking for expeditions, they have made nice chat on 
CW/SSB/RY with other Hams world-wide, talking and making social 
connection.Never mind if they have a big or smaller station.

How can we say its Ham-radio, when a dx-operator is using FT8/FT 4
and making so called QSO:s on two or even more  ( up to 3 bands ) at
the same time. YES, its technically super, BUT is this what we want ???

I think ARRL/dxcc should make a separate class for this FT 8/FT 4
business. NOT accept it for BAND/DXCC. It is NOT fair to let it compete
with CW/SSB/RY for BAND/DXCC.

Finally ,last thing,why I do NOT like it. Before a dx-expedition were on 6 or 
160  meters during ALL expedition.NOW they share it with FT8/FT 4 and
we have less time to do a real QSO. AND for no expedition, I prefer to
make a QSO and exchange information,and try to learn about the other person I 
work. Not just to click on a yellow line.
I will NEVER send a DONATION for a FT8 -expedition.

Last outside this FT 8-business. I also must say, that this remote-story
is under NO control. YES, of course ,you can build a station less
than
150 kilometers or so from your home.PERFECT.  BUT build a station in
Haiti and sit and operate it from NYC, THATS really killing the pleasure
to work a new one.

Thanks for letting me give my feelings. I will NOT react on any replies.

 From MAY until AUGUST I will be around 50098 CW ( ONLY ) looking
for dx I can hear in my ears. Last season I worked 7 stations in California
( info for K9YC ).So IF there had been no FT8-business, I am sure I had
worked at least 20.One day there was a 4 hours opening to all over USA ,east to 
west, and I worked 25 stations in 4 hours. IF it had been before all of
these Hams were on FT8 ,I had worked 100……...

Kind regards

SM6CVX   ( Since 1961 )   Hans
_
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_
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Re: Topband: final from me

[Jorge Diez - CX6VM]

Great Hans

I guess you felt the same way when the cluster appeared. All your life
doing DX, going through the bands with the dial and one day it was no
longer necessary, the PC would tell you where the DX was

I imagine that back then you would also have been furious like now, and
have claimed to separate the DXCC between those who never used spots and
those who did.

This is all very funny

73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W


Libre
de virus. www.avast.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

El mié, 10 mar 2021 a las 18:15, Hans Hjelmström ()
escribió:

> Hi folks
>
> Been reading all sayings about FT8/FT4-business
> .
> MYSELF  I will NEVER ever use FT4 or FT 8. Been active Ham-operator since
> 1961. I am now 75 years old,and still active,and dx-expeditioner.
>
> I say, this PC to PC business kills the challenge of our hobby.
> I agree 100% with OK1RR and OK1TN  and SP2XF writing.AND others.
>
> Of course, IF you like FT 4/FT 8 ,its up to you to use it.
> If I do NOT like it, it must be acceptable for me to tell other Hams ,
> I feel I do NOT like it. And I will NEVER use it.
>
> In Sweden ,I know ,,,a LOT of Hams ( old-timers mainly ,but also new Hams)
> ,
> that has stopped Ham-radio and sold all their equipment because of this PC
> to PC play game.
>
> WHY.  Well, they have always been chasing dx, by looking for hours ,
> and with their own ears finally heard the weak dx, and they called the dx
> on CW/SSB/RY using their challenge and equipment built during many many
> years. And when not looking for expeditions, they have made nice chat on
> CW/SSB/RY with other Hams world-wide, talking and making social
> connection.Never mind if they have a big or smaller station.
>
> How can we say its Ham-radio, when a dx-operator is using FT8/FT 4
> and making so called QSO:s on two or even more  ( up to 3 bands ) at
> the same time. YES, its technically super, BUT is this what we want ???
>
> I think ARRL/dxcc should make a separate class for this FT 8/FT 4
> business. NOT accept it for BAND/DXCC. It is NOT fair to let it compete
> with CW/SSB/RY for BAND/DXCC.
>
> Finally ,last thing,why I do NOT like it. Before a dx-expedition were on 6
> or 160  meters during ALL expedition.NOW they share it with FT8/FT 4 and
> we have less time to do a real QSO. AND for no expedition, I prefer to
> make a QSO and exchange information,and try to learn about the other
> person I work. Not just to click on a yellow line.
> I will NEVER send a DONATION for a FT8 -expedition.
>
> Last outside this FT 8-business. I also must say, that this remote-story
> is under NO control. YES, of course ,you can build a station less
> than
> 150 kilometers or so from your home.PERFECT.  BUT build a station in
> Haiti and sit and operate it from NYC, THATS really killing the pleasure
> to work a new one.
>
> Thanks for letting me give my feelings. I will NOT react on any replies.
>
> From MAY until AUGUST I will be around 50098 CW ( ONLY ) looking
> for dx I can hear in my ears. Last season I worked 7 stations in California
> ( info for K9YC ).So IF there had been no FT8-business, I am sure I had
> worked at least 20.One day there was a 4 hours opening to all over USA
> ,east to west, and I worked 25 stations in 4 hours. IF it had been before
> all of
> these Hams were on FT8 ,I had worked 100……...
>
> Kind regards
>
> SM6CVX   ( Since 1961 )   Hans
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>


-- 
73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W
_
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Topband: Condx to Asia on TB

[David Raymond]

Greetings Topbanders. . .

Conditions this morning from Midwest NA to Asia were, perhaps, the best 
of the season so far (such as it is).  TB regular Kim/HL5IVL was in here 
with a signal peaking honest 579.  Ed/KH2L was 579.  Mike/KL7QOW was 
pounding in here 589/599.  I worked two first time JA callsigns.  
Conditions last night for EU sunrise were also well above average.  It's 
nice to see some good prop and life in the band after six weeks of 
dismal conditions. 73. . . Dave, W0FLS (in Iowa)


_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Topband: final from me

[Hans Hjelmström]

Hi folks

Been reading all sayings about FT8/FT4-business
.
MYSELF  I will NEVER ever use FT4 or FT 8. Been active Ham-operator since
1961. I am now 75 years old,and still active,and dx-expeditioner.

I say, this PC to PC business kills the challenge of our hobby.
I agree 100% with OK1RR and OK1TN  and SP2XF writing.AND others.

Of course, IF you like FT 4/FT 8 ,its up to you to use it.
If I do NOT like it, it must be acceptable for me to tell other Hams ,
I feel I do NOT like it. And I will NEVER use it.

In Sweden ,I know ,,,a LOT of Hams ( old-timers mainly ,but also new Hams) ,
that has stopped Ham-radio and sold all their equipment because of this PC to 
PC play game. 

WHY.  Well, they have always been chasing dx, by looking for hours ,
and with their own ears finally heard the weak dx, and they called the dx
on CW/SSB/RY using their challenge and equipment built during many many
years. And when not looking for expeditions, they have made nice chat on 
CW/SSB/RY with other Hams world-wide, talking and making social 
connection.Never mind if they have a big or smaller station.

How can we say its Ham-radio, when a dx-operator is using FT8/FT 4 
and making so called QSO:s on two or even more  ( up to 3 bands ) at
the same time. YES, its technically super, BUT is this what we want ???

I think ARRL/dxcc should make a separate class for this FT 8/FT 4 
business. NOT accept it for BAND/DXCC. It is NOT fair to let it compete
with CW/SSB/RY for BAND/DXCC.  

Finally ,last thing,why I do NOT like it. Before a dx-expedition were on 6 or 
160  meters during ALL expedition.NOW they share it with FT8/FT 4 and
we have less time to do a real QSO. AND for no expedition, I prefer to 
make a QSO and exchange information,and try to learn about the other person I 
work. Not just to click on a yellow line.
I will NEVER send a DONATION for a FT8 -expedition.

Last outside this FT 8-business. I also must say, that this remote-story 
is under NO control. YES, of course ,you can build a station less
than
150 kilometers or so from your home.PERFECT.  BUT build a station in
Haiti and sit and operate it from NYC, THATS really killing the pleasure
to work a new one.

Thanks for letting me give my feelings. I will NOT react on any replies.

From MAY until AUGUST I will be around 50098 CW ( ONLY ) looking
for dx I can hear in my ears. Last season I worked 7 stations in California
( info for K9YC ).So IF there had been no FT8-business, I am sure I had
worked at least 20.One day there was a 4 hours opening to all over USA ,east to 
west, and I worked 25 stations in 4 hours. IF it had been before all of
these Hams were on FT8 ,I had worked 100……...

Kind regards

SM6CVX   ( Since 1961 )   Hans
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: CQ Zones

[ok1tn]

VA3DX
pity you have such a nice callsign. Martin is a very erudite technician and 
a perfect operator. I don't even think you know what you're saying and you 
should consider your words.

-
73 Slavek Zeler
www.lc-variable.eu
www.okdxf.eu

-- 
73 Slavek Zeler
www.lc-variable.eu
www.okdxf.eu

-- Původní e-mail --
Od: Dave Heil 
Komu: topband@contesting.com
Datum: 10. 3. 2021 19:47:51
Předmět: Re: Topband: CQ Zones 
"Do me a favor, Glenn;  read what you just sent and then look into a mirror.

Dave K8MN


On 3/9/2021 08:45 PM, Glenn Wyant wrote:
> And you decide whether any of us deserve to follow our own preferences!
> We don't need you as a dumb ass wanna be leader.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Mar 9, 2021, at 18:25, Martin Kratoska  wrote:
>>
>> Glenn (VA3DX),
>>
>> BRAVO, I applaud!
>>
>> So you claim the privilege to decide who should leave and who is allowed 
to stay. And you will do it for ALL members of the list. You are a brilliant
character. The life with you must be a marvel.
>>
>> Stay safe, 73
>> Martin, OK1RR
>>
>>
>> Dne 09. 03. 21 v 21:23 Glenn Wyant napsal(a):
>>> And Martin there is no need for you stay here.
>>> Obviously you don't need us , you are so much better than us ft8 Cw ssb 
rtty etc etc ops
>>> Glenn VA3DX
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
 On Mar 9, 2021, at 11:40, Martin Kratoska  wrote:

 Bob et al,

 all these rules can be preprogrammed into SV5DKL's robot which can "do 
the QSO". Otherwise I can tell my dog where to paw, he would be possibly a 
better FT8 "operator" than mine.

 There is no need of ears, hands, brain or any knowledge. All the task 
can be robotized. This does DEFINITELY NOT qualify as ham radio. I am very 
sorry that I don't have any better news for you.

 73,
 Martin, OK1RR

 P.S. Any FT8 yes/no dispute is meaningless, at least in this mailing 
list, isn't?


 Dne 09. 03. 21 v 17:19 Chortek, Robert L. napsal(a):
> Actually, it is ham radio.
>
> Have you spent any time with the mode?
>
> For example,
>
> 1. Have you identified a country you need for a bond slot or ATNO?
>
> 2. Have you determined the best time of year, time of day, and band to
see if a station from that country is on?
>
> 3. Have you searched the decodes daily for a station from that 
country?
>
> 4. After spending days hunting that DX, have you FINALLY managed to be
there when the propagation was favorable?
>
> 5. Have you then, after all that, called that DX and made the contact?
>
> If that does not qualify as ham radio, I’m not sure what does.
>
> 73,
>
> Bob/AA6VB
> Robert L. Chortek
>
> On Mar 9, 2021, at 8:04 AM, ok1tn  wrote:
>
> 
>
> [External Email]
>
> FT4 FT8 is just a computer game. It's not a ham radio
> OK1TN
> --
> 73 Slavek Zeler
>
>
> -- Původní e-mail --
> Od: Chortek, Robert L. 
> Komu: Joe Subich, W4TV 
> Datum: 9. 3. 2021 16:31:21
> Předmět: Re: Topband: CQ Zones
> THANK YOU JOE! That pretty much captures the debate.
>
> 73,
>
> Bob/AA6VB
> Robert L. Chortek
>
>> On Mar 9, 2021, at 7:27 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV  
wrote:
>>
>> [External Email]
>>
>> Oh PLEASE! You sound just like AM phone operators when SSB came
>> along. And spark operators when CW started to replace it.
>>
>> The first DX was nothing more than single letters ...
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>>> On 2021-03-09 10:10 AM, Karel Matousek wrote:
>>> I agree wit Martin OK1RR.
>>>
>>> I cannot endorse FT4, FT8 for the ARRL DXCC Program.
>>>
>>> IMHO, this should NEVER be allowed unless qualified in a separate 
rules
>>> category!
>>>
>>> Karel OK1CF
>>> __
 Od: "Martin Kratoska" 
 Komu: topband@contesting.com
 Datum: 09.03.2021 15:37
 Předmět: Re: Topband: CQ Zones
>>> Oh, FT8 should be proclaimed as illegal for DXCC (WAZ, WAS etc.) in
>>> mixed categories.
>>> This "mode" should be counted completely separated from traditional
>>> modes like CW or SSB.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Martin, OK1RR
>>>
>>>
>>> Dne 09. 03. 21 v 15:16 Ian Fugler napsal(a):
 Hi, Dave

 Zone 23 - JT5DX will be your man. He is active in contests and puts
>>> out a good signal.
 Zone 24 - will be more of a challenge. I have worked XX9D and a
>>> couple of BY stations. But you may need to use FT8 for the BY 
stations,
>>> since they seem strongly to prefer that mode.
 73 and GL!

 Ian G4iiY
>> _
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband 
Reflector
> _
> Searchable Archives: 

Re: Topband: CQ Zones

[Dave Heil]

Do me a favor, Glenn;  read what you just sent and then look into a mirror.

Dave K8MN


On 3/9/2021 08:45 PM, Glenn Wyant wrote:

And you decide whether any of us deserve to follow our own preferences!
We don't need you as a dumb ass wanna be leader.

Sent from my iPhone


On Mar 9, 2021, at 18:25, Martin Kratoska  wrote:

Glenn (VA3DX),

BRAVO, I applaud!

So you claim the privilege to decide who should leave and who is allowed to 
stay. And you will do it for ALL members of the list. You are a brilliant 
character. The life with you must be a marvel.

Stay safe, 73
Martin, OK1RR


Dne 09. 03. 21 v 21:23 Glenn Wyant napsal(a):

And Martin there is no need for you stay here.
Obviously you don't need us , you are so much better than us ft8 Cw ssb rtty 
etc etc ops
Glenn VA3DX

Sent from my iPhone


On Mar 9, 2021, at 11:40, Martin Kratoska  wrote:

Bob et al,

all these rules can be preprogrammed into SV5DKL's robot which can "do the QSO". 
Otherwise I can tell my dog where to paw, he would be possibly a better FT8 "operator" 
than mine.

There is no need of ears, hands, brain or any knowledge. All the task can be 
robotized. This does DEFINITELY NOT qualify as ham radio. I am very sorry that 
I don't have any better news for you.

73,
Martin, OK1RR

P.S. Any FT8 yes/no dispute is meaningless, at least in this mailing list, 
isn't?


Dne 09. 03. 21 v 17:19 Chortek, Robert L. napsal(a):

Actually, it is ham radio.

Have you spent any time with the mode?

For example,

1. Have you identified a country you need for a bond slot or ATNO?

2.  Have you determined the best time of year, time of day, and band to see if 
a station from that country is on?

3. Have you searched the decodes daily for a station from that country?

4. After spending days hunting that DX, have you FINALLY managed to be there 
when the propagation was favorable?

5.  Have you then, after all that, called that DX and made the contact?

If that does not qualify as ham radio, I’m not sure what does.

73,

Bob/AA6VB
Robert L. Chortek

On Mar 9, 2021, at 8:04 AM, ok1tn  wrote:



[External Email]

FT4 FT8 is just a computer game. It's not a ham radio
OK1TN
--
73 Slavek Zeler


-- Původní e-mail --
Od: Chortek, Robert L. 
Komu: Joe Subich, W4TV 
Datum: 9. 3. 2021 16:31:21
Předmět: Re: Topband: CQ Zones
THANK YOU JOE! That pretty much captures the debate.

73,

Bob/AA6VB
Robert L. Chortek


On Mar 9, 2021, at 7:27 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:

[External Email]

Oh PLEASE! You sound just like AM phone operators when SSB came
along. And spark operators when CW started to replace it.

The first DX was nothing more than single letters ...

73,

... Joe, W4TV



On 2021-03-09 10:10 AM, Karel Matousek wrote:
I agree wit Martin OK1RR.

I cannot endorse FT4, FT8 for the ARRL DXCC Program.

IMHO, this should NEVER be allowed unless qualified in a separate rules
category!

Karel OK1CF
__

Od: "Martin Kratoska" 
Komu: topband@contesting.com
Datum: 09.03.2021 15:37
Předmět: Re: Topband: CQ Zones

Oh, FT8 should be proclaimed as illegal for DXCC (WAZ, WAS etc.) in
mixed categories.
This "mode" should be counted completely separated from traditional
modes like CW or SSB.

73,
Martin, OK1RR


Dne 09. 03. 21 v 15:16 Ian Fugler napsal(a):

Hi, Dave

Zone 23 - JT5DX will be your man. He is active in contests and puts

out a good signal.

Zone 24 - will be more of a challenge. I have worked XX9D and a

couple of BY stations. But you may need to use FT8 for the BY stations,
since they seem strongly to prefer that mode.

73 and GL!

Ian G4iiY

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Re: Topband: removing ft8 from dxcc waz was etc - PLEASE: ENOUGH!!

[Lee Boulineau via Topband]

 ENOUGH!!

TU es 73 de Lee KX4TT
 On Wednesday, 10 March 2021, 06:49:23 pm GMT+1, Martin Kratoska 
 wrote:  
 
 First - before any comment: I thoroughly tested FT8. Trying to "be on" 
since the very first steps of FT8. Made some ~3000 QSO with 150 
countries DXCC. Studied the protocol into depth to understand what does 
the tricks to resolve very weak signal. Using the best available sound 
card - the Asus Xonar U7 with its famous Burr-Brown AD and DA 
converters. All works in Linux, no gimmicks here. Also compiled the 
sources by myself, the deb packages are made for Ubuntu but my Debian 10 
does not like them. No problem, I am very experienced Linux user, also 
former computer-pro. That's testing bench here.

Without separation of the meat from the bones: the software is an 
excellent example how should be it done! It is a real masterpiece, hat 
off to the authors team!

Anyway, the FT8 main principle is "confirmation of expectable". This 
overcomes the unnecessary redundancy, but at the cost that no QSO except 
the "precooked" one is possible. You should note that the first versions 
of WSJT had problems with unusual calls, I was unable to air my special 
call OL100R.

The cost paid for "weak signal" functionality is simply too high. The 
operator can't do anything other than clicking to station wanted to QSO. 
There is some split needed but the choice of split "deviation" is all 
what the op can do. Thus, a QSO can be never a fully featured chat, in 
contrary to RTTY, PSK31 or others where is possible to say hello.

All such features are highly attractive to the new operators who does 
not know the code, who never learned the adventures with weak SSB 
signals. These guys are not comparable with us, they are different from 
us, they are NOT HAMS, they are just radio users. I don't care if 
someone finds my words offensive. Everybody can learn the code (yes, 
there are some 7% who can't, due to health reasons), who can't learn the 
code is probably able to speak so he can operate SSB. The main reason to 
become "FT8 only" is the LAZINESS which I find unacceptable. Period.

I am ham because it's hard, not because it's easy. See the True Blue DX 
club and its motto (https://www.tbdxc.net/). I am founder member, #4. 
Again, I am NOT biased against any mode. Do you like it? Do it! Do you 
count this as old dog's new trick? Well, do it, go ahead! (BTW there are 
more old dogs, some of them are happy to do old tricks in the same way 
as they did 50 years ago. As Vern Kaspar, W9FAM did! They still going 
strong, some of them unfortunately only in my mind, in my memories)... 
But I never accept/take part in a bicycle race where some participants 
using motor bikes. Now you know why I dislike FT8. My attitude to this 
mode is NEUTRAL, I HATE "FT8 only" radio users promoting themselves as 
hams (radio amateurs).

73,
Martin, OK1RR
https://www.qrz.com/db/OK1RR


Dne 10. 03. 21 v 17:11 Glenn Wyant napsal(a):
> Sorry to offend you Dougand Martin
> However when another ham tries to tell me what I should or should not
> Operate, well I take offense.
> In this case Martin  does not like FT8
> Thats fine, however when he starts saying it should not count for dxcc waz 
> was etc
> For dxcc was waz etc , which would affect myself a lot of other hams,
> I find it offensive that  he would agree to remove those awards from me.
>
> Martin came on the reflector and basically degraded all those
> who use ft8.  I found it offensive and told him his summary
> of our operating is not needed there. I did not ask that he be
> Banished, as was his claim.
>
> I believe a hams personal operating preference is his option.
> We don’t need to judge others based on our own personal beliefs.
>
> If I have offended anyone here , I apoligize.
>
> Glenn
>
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
> From: Doug Renwick
> Sent: March 10, 2021 9:40 AM
> To: 'Glenn Wyant'; mar...@ok1rr.com
> Cc: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: RE: *SPAM* Re: Topband: CQ Zones
>
> And Tree continues to let a$$holes like VA3DX to post here. I should look at
> changing my callsign to show no similarity to Glenn's.
>
> Doug/VA5DX
>
> Free Climbing - The ultimate test of strength and technique.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces+ve5ra=sasktel@contesting.com] On
> Behalf Of Glenn Wyant
> Sent: March-09-21 7:46 PM
> To: mar...@ok1rr.com
> Cc: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: *SPAM* Re: Topband: CQ Zones
>
> And you decide whether any of us deserve to follow our own preferences!
> We don't need you as a dumb ass wanna be leader.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Mar 9, 2021, at 18:25, Martin Kratoska  wrote:
>>
>> Glenn (VA3DX),
>>
>> BRAVO, I applaud!
>>
>> So you claim the privilege to decide who should leave and who is allowed
> to stay. And you will do it for ALL members of the list. You are a brilliant
> character. The life with you must be a marvel.
>> Stay safe, 73
>> Martin, OK1RR
>

_

Re: Topband: Portable transmit antenna suggestions?

[GEORGE WALLNER]

I have been using Spiderpoles on DXpeditions and at C6AGU for many years. 
Yes, they are not very strong, but with proper guying, I have seen them 
stand up to 80 mph winds. For 160, when using top loading, don't use the two 
top (thinnest) segments as wind loading on the wire can break the thin 
fiberglass. Use a T configuration with two equal length loading wires. These 
will better balance the top in strong winds and can act as additional guys.

73 and GL,
George,
AA7JV/C6AGU


On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 09:12:52 -0800
 Jim Brown  wrote:

On 3/10/2021 4:25 AM, S57AD wrote:

Spiderbeam sells 160m antenna kit (top loaded 60' vertical - telescopic
fiberglass pole, all the wires, etc,


Their fiberglass is not to be trusted structurally. I speak from experience.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Topband: Looking for hi-Z antenna

[Dave Cuthbert]

It isn't the feedpoint impedance that matters, it is the antenna radiation
resistance that matters. For example, if we take a quarter wavelength
vertical having radiation resistance of 36 ohms and add a wire to make it a
folded vertical having input impedance of 144 ohms it still has a radiation
resistance of 36 ohms. The ground loss eats up the same amount of RF energy.

To increase the radiation resistance the current-area must be increased.
Two ways to do that are to lengthen the antenna (up to 1/4 wavelength) or
top load it. On 60 meters1 the HF2V is a 32' base loaded vertical having a
radiation resistance of ~1.5 ohms. Top loaded this can be increased to ~5.5
ohms, potentially increasing your signal by almost 6 dB. The HF2V manual
mentions top loading on page 11.

 *HF2V manual*
https://static.dxengineering.com/global/images/instructions/but-hf2v_ck.pdf

Dave KH6AQ

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 3:07 AM Richard Quick  wrote:

> I have as much of a compromised antenna for 160 as you can get.
> A Butternut HF2V with a 160 coil, mounted on a chain link fence.
> I have a small lot with overhead power lines across the back of the
> property, and Am looking for a better idea.
> I’m thinking a hi impedance feed point antenna ie:450 ohms would require a
> much less extensive ground radial system than say, an inverted L with low
> impedance. Easier to match a 450 Ground than 37 ohms.
> Am I nuts?  Anyone with ideas along this line of thinking?
>
>
>
> Rich - W4RQ Amateur Radio: The Original Social Media
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
_
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Re: Topband: removing ft8 from dxcc waz was etc

[Martin Kratoska]

Doug, you read my mind. Thanks a lot, OC. I owe you a beer...

73
Martin, OK1RR



Dne 10. 03. 21 v 17:11 Glenn Wyant napsal(a):

Sorry to offend you Dougand Martin
However when another ham tries to tell me what I should or should not
Operate, well I take offense.
In this case Martin  does not like FT8
Thats fine, however when he starts saying it should not count for dxcc waz was 
etc
For dxcc was waz etc , which would affect myself a lot of other hams,
I find it offensive that  he would agree to remove those awards from me.

Martin came on the reflector and basically degraded all those
who use ft8.  I found it offensive and told him his summary
of our operating is not needed there. I did not ask that he be
Banished, as was his claim.

I believe a hams personal operating preference is his option.
We don’t need to judge others based on our own personal beliefs.

If I have offended anyone here , I apoligize.

Glenn


Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Doug Renwick
Sent: March 10, 2021 9:40 AM
To: 'Glenn Wyant'; mar...@ok1rr.com
Cc: topband@contesting.com
Subject: RE: *SPAM* Re: Topband: CQ Zones

And Tree continues to let a$$holes like VA3DX to post here. I should look at
changing my callsign to show no similarity to Glenn's.

Doug/VA5DX

Free Climbing - The ultimate test of strength and technique.

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces+ve5ra=sasktel@contesting.com] On
Behalf Of Glenn Wyant
Sent: March-09-21 7:46 PM
To: mar...@ok1rr.com
Cc: topband@contesting.com
Subject: *SPAM* Re: Topband: CQ Zones

And you decide whether any of us deserve to follow our own preferences!
We don't need you as a dumb ass wanna be leader.

Sent from my iPhone


On Mar 9, 2021, at 18:25, Martin Kratoska  wrote:

Glenn (VA3DX),

BRAVO, I applaud!

So you claim the privilege to decide who should leave and who is allowed

to stay. And you will do it for ALL members of the list. You are a brilliant
character. The life with you must be a marvel.

Stay safe, 73
Martin, OK1RR




_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Portable transmit antenna suggestions?

[Harald Rester]

I have the 26m pole top loaded for 160m, which also supports a 17m
vertical section for a 80m Inv-L. Strong winds here as well, but never
problems the last 6 years.
73, Harry, DH1NBE

Am 10.03.2021 um 18:29 schrieb Chortek, Robert L.:

I’ve got multiple (4)Spiderbeam fiberglass poles up to 60’ tall.  With proper 
guying, I’ve never had a failure.  I also find the poles to be very well 
balanced. I was able to erect a 60’ pole to make a top loaded 160 meter antenna 
by myself.  I think they are a great product.  Proper buying is required, of 
course.

73,

Bob/AA6VB
Robert L. Chortek


On Mar 10, 2021, at 9:23 AM, Ken Claerbout  wrote:

[External Email]

We installed an 18 meter Spider Pole at ET3AA, which supports a wire
Inverted L for 80 and 160.  It blows around pretty good at times.
While I don't discount Jim's experience, it's been up for 2 plus years
and is still going strong.

73
Ken K4ZW


On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 12:13 PM Jim Brown  wrote:


On 3/10/2021 4:25 AM, S57AD wrote:
Spiderbeam sells 160m antenna kit (top loaded 60' vertical - telescopic
fiberglass pole, all the wires, etc,

Their fiberglass is not to be trusted structurally. I speak from experience.

73, Jim K9YC
_
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_
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_
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_
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Re: Topband: removing ft8 from dxcc waz was etc

[Martin Kratoska]

First - before any comment: I thoroughly tested FT8. Trying to "be on" 
since the very first steps of FT8. Made some ~3000 QSO with 150 
countries DXCC. Studied the protocol into depth to understand what does 
the tricks to resolve very weak signal. Using the best available sound 
card - the Asus Xonar U7 with its famous Burr-Brown AD and DA 
converters. All works in Linux, no gimmicks here. Also compiled the 
sources by myself, the deb packages are made for Ubuntu but my Debian 10 
does not like them. No problem, I am very experienced Linux user, also 
former computer-pro. That's testing bench here.


Without separation of the meat from the bones: the software is an 
excellent example how should be it done! It is a real masterpiece, hat 
off to the authors team!


Anyway, the FT8 main principle is "confirmation of expectable". This 
overcomes the unnecessary redundancy, but at the cost that no QSO except 
the "precooked" one is possible. You should note that the first versions 
of WSJT had problems with unusual calls, I was unable to air my special 
call OL100R.


The cost paid for "weak signal" functionality is simply too high. The 
operator can't do anything other than clicking to station wanted to QSO. 
There is some split needed but the choice of split "deviation" is all 
what the op can do. Thus, a QSO can be never a fully featured chat, in 
contrary to RTTY, PSK31 or others where is possible to say hello.


All such features are highly attractive to the new operators who does 
not know the code, who never learned the adventures with weak SSB 
signals. These guys are not comparable with us, they are different from 
us, they are NOT HAMS, they are just radio users. I don't care if 
someone finds my words offensive. Everybody can learn the code (yes, 
there are some 7% who can't, due to health reasons), who can't learn the 
code is probably able to speak so he can operate SSB. The main reason to 
become "FT8 only" is the LAZINESS which I find unacceptable. Period.


I am ham because it's hard, not because it's easy. See the True Blue DX 
club and its motto (https://www.tbdxc.net/). I am founder member, #4. 
Again, I am NOT biased against any mode. Do you like it? Do it! Do you 
count this as old dog's new trick? Well, do it, go ahead! (BTW there are 
more old dogs, some of them are happy to do old tricks in the same way 
as they did 50 years ago. As Vern Kaspar, W9FAM did! They still going 
strong, some of them unfortunately only in my mind, in my memories)... 
But I never accept/take part in a bicycle race where some participants 
using motor bikes. Now you know why I dislike FT8. My attitude to this 
mode is NEUTRAL, I HATE "FT8 only" radio users promoting themselves as 
hams (radio amateurs).


73,
Martin, OK1RR
https://www.qrz.com/db/OK1RR


Dne 10. 03. 21 v 17:11 Glenn Wyant napsal(a):

Sorry to offend you Dougand Martin
However when another ham tries to tell me what I should or should not
Operate, well I take offense.
In this case Martin  does not like FT8
Thats fine, however when he starts saying it should not count for dxcc waz was 
etc
For dxcc was waz etc , which would affect myself a lot of other hams,
I find it offensive that  he would agree to remove those awards from me.

Martin came on the reflector and basically degraded all those
who use ft8.  I found it offensive and told him his summary
of our operating is not needed there. I did not ask that he be
Banished, as was his claim.

I believe a hams personal operating preference is his option.
We don’t need to judge others based on our own personal beliefs.

If I have offended anyone here , I apoligize.

Glenn


Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Doug Renwick
Sent: March 10, 2021 9:40 AM
To: 'Glenn Wyant'; mar...@ok1rr.com
Cc: topband@contesting.com
Subject: RE: *SPAM* Re: Topband: CQ Zones

And Tree continues to let a$$holes like VA3DX to post here. I should look at
changing my callsign to show no similarity to Glenn's.

Doug/VA5DX

Free Climbing - The ultimate test of strength and technique.

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces+ve5ra=sasktel@contesting.com] On
Behalf Of Glenn Wyant
Sent: March-09-21 7:46 PM
To: mar...@ok1rr.com
Cc: topband@contesting.com
Subject: *SPAM* Re: Topband: CQ Zones

And you decide whether any of us deserve to follow our own preferences!
We don't need you as a dumb ass wanna be leader.

Sent from my iPhone


On Mar 9, 2021, at 18:25, Martin Kratoska  wrote:

Glenn (VA3DX),

BRAVO, I applaud!

So you claim the privilege to decide who should leave and who is allowed

to stay. And you will do it for ALL members of the list. You are a brilliant
character. The life with you must be a marvel.

Stay safe, 73
Martin, OK1RR




_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Portable Flag follow up (DX Engineering preamp noise figure update)

[John Kaufmann via Topband]

I have the DX Engineering preamp that I use with the DX Engineering portable
flag and can confirm the 4.5 dB noise figure.  Using the methods I described
here in an earlier post, I measured the noise figure as between 4 to 5 dB. 

Also I measured the gain (S21) from 0.1 to 30 MHz with my VNA-2180.  It
comes out to be 32 dB at 1.8 MHz.  Overall the gain response is essentially
the same as what WD8DSB measured on a prototype of the preamp and reported
on his Web page (https://sites.google.com/site/portableflagantenna/).  There
is a broad dip in gain of about 1 dB in the middle of the HF range, but it's
inconsequential.

Finally I measured the input impedance (S11) of the DX Engineering preamp.
It varies a bit with frequency but when reported as SWR relative to 50 ohms,
it ranges between 1.2:1 and 1.5:1 over the HF range.  It will be a fine
match for the flag which has a 50 ohm feedpoint impedance.

Overall I think these are very good numbers for a relatively inexpensive
preamp that is portable and battery powered.  (Disclaimer:  I have no
affiliation with or commercial interest in DX Engineering).

73, John W1FV

-Original Message-
From: Topband
[mailto:topband-bounces+john.kaufmann=verizon@contesting.com] On Behalf
Of Don Kirk
Sent: Tuesday, March 9, 2021 6:22 PM
To: topband
Subject: Re: Topband: Portable Flag follow up (DX Engineering preamp noise
figure update)

I should have said the so the 4.5 dB noise figure is certainly not
unreasonable.

Sorry for the typo.
73,
Don (wd8dsb)

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 6:20 PM Don Kirk  wrote:

> A couple of weeks ago there were a lot of postings about my portable flag
> for radio direction finding (for tracking down RFI), and someone asked
> about the DX Engineering preamp that was designed for use with my portable
> flag and specifically what the noise figure was for this preamp.  Tim
> (K3LR) said DX Engineering would measure it, and today he reported it
> measured 4.5 dB.
>
> Tim mentioned that there were trade offs in the design such as low current
> draw and high gain, so the 4.5 dB noise figure is certainly unreasonable.
> It really is the only preamp I now use with my portable flag, and very
> pleased with how it works.
>
> Just FYI,
> Don (wd8dsb)
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
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Re: Topband: Portable transmit antenna suggestions?

[Chortek, Robert L.]

Oh, and I should have added it’s critical to mount the hose clamps correctly 
and NOT to over-tighten them.  They can place tremendous pressure on the 
fiberglass and cause failure if not installed properly.

73,

Bob/AA6VB 
Robert L. Chortek

> On Mar 10, 2021, at 9:29 AM, Chortek, Robert L.  
> wrote:
> 
> I’ve got multiple (4)Spiderbeam fiberglass poles up to 60’ tall.  With 
> proper guying, I’ve never had a failure.  I also find the poles to be very 
> well balanced. I was able to erect a 60’ pole to make a top loaded 160 meter 
> antenna by myself.  I think they are a great product.  Proper buying is 
> required, of course.
> 
> 73,
> 
> Bob/AA6VB 
> Robert L. Chortek
> 
>> On Mar 10, 2021, at 9:23 AM, Ken Claerbout  wrote:
>> 
>> [External Email]
>> 
>> We installed an 18 meter Spider Pole at ET3AA, which supports a wire
>> Inverted L for 80 and 160.  It blows around pretty good at times.
>> While I don't discount Jim's experience, it's been up for 2 plus years
>> and is still going strong.
>> 
>> 73
>> Ken K4ZW
>> 
 On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 12:13 PM Jim Brown  
 wrote:
>>> 
 On 3/10/2021 4:25 AM, S57AD wrote:
 Spiderbeam sells 160m antenna kit (top loaded 60' vertical - telescopic
 fiberglass pole, all the wires, etc,
>>> 
>>> Their fiberglass is not to be trusted structurally. I speak from experience.
>>> 
>>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>> _
>>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
>> _
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
_
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Re: Topband: Portable transmit antenna suggestions?

[Chortek, Robert L.]

I’ve got multiple (4)Spiderbeam fiberglass poles up to 60’ tall.  With proper 
guying, I’ve never had a failure.  I also find the poles to be very well 
balanced. I was able to erect a 60’ pole to make a top loaded 160 meter antenna 
by myself.  I think they are a great product.  Proper buying is required, of 
course.

73,

Bob/AA6VB 
Robert L. Chortek

> On Mar 10, 2021, at 9:23 AM, Ken Claerbout  wrote:
> 
> [External Email]
> 
> We installed an 18 meter Spider Pole at ET3AA, which supports a wire
> Inverted L for 80 and 160.  It blows around pretty good at times.
> While I don't discount Jim's experience, it's been up for 2 plus years
> and is still going strong.
> 
> 73
> Ken K4ZW
> 
>> On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 12:13 PM Jim Brown  
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 3/10/2021 4:25 AM, S57AD wrote:
>>> Spiderbeam sells 160m antenna kit (top loaded 60' vertical - telescopic
>>> fiberglass pole, all the wires, etc,
>> 
>> Their fiberglass is not to be trusted structurally. I speak from experience.
>> 
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>> _
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
_
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Re: Topband: Portable transmit antenna suggestions?

[Ken Claerbout]

We installed an 18 meter Spider Pole at ET3AA, which supports a wire
Inverted L for 80 and 160.  It blows around pretty good at times.
While I don't discount Jim's experience, it's been up for 2 plus years
and is still going strong.

73
Ken K4ZW

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 12:13 PM Jim Brown  wrote:
>
> On 3/10/2021 4:25 AM, S57AD wrote:
> > Spiderbeam sells 160m antenna kit (top loaded 60' vertical - telescopic
> > fiberglass pole, all the wires, etc,
>
> Their fiberglass is not to be trusted structurally. I speak from experience.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
_
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Re: Topband: CQ Zones

[Jim Brown]

On 3/10/2021 8:38 AM, Jim Thomson wrote:

So its all relative really.


Great post, Jim.

73, Jim K9YC
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Portable transmit antenna suggestions?

[Jim Brown]

On 3/10/2021 4:25 AM, S57AD wrote:

Spiderbeam sells 160m antenna kit (top loaded 60' vertical - telescopic
fiberglass pole, all the wires, etc,


Their fiberglass is not to be trusted structurally. I speak from experience.

73, Jim K9YC
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: CQ Zones

[uy0zg]

160 m and is interesting because there are many obstacles on it.

Of course, technical progress should help. But only within strictly 
reasonable limits!


Unfortunately, the time has come when many (especially those who create 
the rules) do not respect these reasonable limits.


Why?

Probably all sane people know the reason ...

---
Nick, UY0ZG
http://www.topband.in.ua

Jim Thomson писал 2021-03-10 18:38:

You folks using CW have a HUGE advantage over the  SSB  operator.
And  folks using a remote  RX  have a  bigger advantage over everybody.
And hams, who live on  5-10 acres  out in the bushhave a huge 
advantage

over us mere mortals on postage stamp sized  city lots, surrounded by
noise in all directions.

So its all relative really.   Relative to what an individual can do
with what they have.
When somebody has  200-250 countries on 160m...and lives on 20 acres
out in the bush,
complete  with beverages  pointed in all directions, and a S1  noise
level to be honest,  I  am
not overly impressed. Its  what  I would expect  with their better
 setup..and location.

The only thing that counts, is how well one  does with the cards you
are dealt with.  The  folks
with the multi tower  setups, and stacked arrays, that  rack  up huge
scores in a contest,  good luck
to them.   The rest of us cant even begin to compete with that, so why 
bother.


Amateur radio is  like   having  40   cars on a race track,  ranging
in performance from  A-Z.   We  can
all  guess the  expected results, with great accuracy.   Its
laughable really.  You  can only do so much.

Jim   VE7RF
_
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Reflector

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Topband: CQ Zones

[Jim Thomson]

You folks using CW have a HUGE advantage over the  SSB  operator. 
And  folks using a remote  RX  have a  bigger advantage over everybody.
And hams, who live on  5-10 acres  out in the bushhave a huge advantage
over us mere mortals on postage stamp sized  city lots, surrounded by noise in 
all directions.

So its all relative really.   Relative to what an individual can do with what 
they have. 
When somebody has  200-250 countries on 160m...and lives on 20 acres  out in 
the bush,
complete  with beverages  pointed in all directions, and a S1  noise level 
to be honest,  I  am 
not overly impressed. Its  what  I would expect  with their better  
setup..and location. 

The only thing that counts, is how well one  does with the cards you are dealt 
with.  The  folks
with the multi tower  setups, and stacked arrays, that  rack  up huge scores in 
a contest,  good luck
to them.   The rest of us cant even begin to compete with that, so why bother. 

Amateur radio is  like   having  40   cars on a race track,  ranging in 
performance from  A-Z.   We  can 
all  guess the  expected results, with great accuracy.   Its  laughable really. 
 You  can only do so much.

Jim   VE7RF 
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Topband: Spring Stew Perry 160 meter event

[Tree]

This Spring Stew perry event is coming this weekend!!  Starts at 1500Z on
March 13th and runs for 24 hours.  Exchange is your grid square and you get
more points the further away the stations you work are.

Last chance to enjoy good North Hemisphere propagation before the days
start getting too long.

Full rules and previous results can be found here:

http://www.kkn.net/stew

There is now a plaque for the best combined score from the 2021 events -
but you must enter all events to be eligible.  Don't miss this and be sorry
later.

73 Tree N6TR
_
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Re: Topband: removing ft8 from dxcc waz was etc

[Glenn Wyant]

Sorry to offend you Dougand Martin
However when another ham tries to tell me what I should or should not
Operate, well I take offense.
In this case Martin  does not like FT8
Thats fine, however when he starts saying it should not count for dxcc waz was 
etc
For dxcc was waz etc , which would affect myself a lot of other hams, 
I find it offensive that  he would agree to remove those awards from me. 

Martin came on the reflector and basically degraded all those 
who use ft8.  I found it offensive and told him his summary
of our operating is not needed there. I did not ask that he be
Banished, as was his claim.

I believe a hams personal operating preference is his option.
We don’t need to judge others based on our own personal beliefs.

If I have offended anyone here , I apoligize.

Glenn 


Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Doug Renwick
Sent: March 10, 2021 9:40 AM
To: 'Glenn Wyant'; mar...@ok1rr.com
Cc: topband@contesting.com
Subject: RE: *SPAM* Re: Topband: CQ Zones

And Tree continues to let a$$holes like VA3DX to post here. I should look at
changing my callsign to show no similarity to Glenn's.

Doug/VA5DX

Free Climbing - The ultimate test of strength and technique.

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces+ve5ra=sasktel@contesting.com] On
Behalf Of Glenn Wyant
Sent: March-09-21 7:46 PM
To: mar...@ok1rr.com
Cc: topband@contesting.com
Subject: *SPAM* Re: Topband: CQ Zones

And you decide whether any of us deserve to follow our own preferences!
We don't need you as a dumb ass wanna be leader.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 9, 2021, at 18:25, Martin Kratoska  wrote:
> 
> Glenn (VA3DX),
> 
> BRAVO, I applaud!
> 
> So you claim the privilege to decide who should leave and who is allowed
to stay. And you will do it for ALL members of the list. You are a brilliant
character. The life with you must be a marvel.
> 
> Stay safe, 73
> Martin, OK1RR


-- 
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Re: Topband: Ahem!!!

[David Olean]

Gee, all I wanted was a few pointers in hopes of knocking off a couple 
of CQ zones!   I also discovered that many of my e mail replies went 
into a junque mail folder for some unknown reason. Thanks to all who 
responded. You gave me a lot of good information that I can pursue.  
Along those lines, I sold enuf debris on EBay so I have enough to get my 
8 circle array project going again. I try to finance my ham radio habit 
with selling off old stuff to keep my retirement savings intact for 
living expenses. So I was cleaning out my basement after replacing an 
old electric water heater and found two boxes of old vacuum tubes. I 
looked thru the pile and found a few Western Electric 244 and 247 tubes. 
I sold em on EBay and can now get the 8 Circle array with the proceeds. 
I even sold three bad ones for $30. Two had open filaments. The third 
was dead.  Thank god for the audiophyles (phools).


My plan is to keep all of my beverages intact as they seem to work 
really well. The Europe one in particular, works well, and is a pair of 
1100+ ft wires spaced 370 ft apart. The two feedlines come into the 
shack to an NCC-1 phasing box.  If and when I get the 8 circle array 
running,  I will use NCC-1 #2 to phase the 8 circle output with the 
bevs, or run the two systems into my 2nd receiver port on the K3 for 
diversity.  As the experts always say, the more knobs, the merrier!


Dave K1WHS

On 3/9/2021 11:52 AM, Tree wrote:

Why is it that this has to turn into an FT8 debate AGAIN???

This is not a productive use of this channel.

Some people like FT8, some people don't.  To each their own.

This is not the channel to discuss that.  OK1RR - this means you.

Tree
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Re: Topband: Looking for hi-Z antenna

[Artek Manuals]

Rich
Roughly how big is your back yard? Any trees over 30' high?

( I did work Antarctica from Texas once with a Bnut HF-9V and about 8 
radials, so even a blind pig finds a truffle now and then ...but your 
instincts are correct about there being better alternatives ...8^)


Dave
NR1DX

On 3/10/2021 8:07 AM, Richard Quick wrote:

I have as much of a compromised antenna for 160 as you can get.
A Butternut HF2V with a 160 coil, mounted on a chain link fence.
I have a small lot with overhead power lines across the back of the property, 
and Am looking for a better idea.
I’m thinking a hi impedance feed point antenna ie:450 ohms would require a much 
less extensive ground radial system than say, an inverted L with low impedance. 
Easier to match a 450 Ground than 37 ohms.
Am I nuts?  Anyone with ideas along this line of thinking?



Rich - W4RQ Amateur Radio: The Original Social Media
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--
Dave manu...@artekmanuals.com www.ArtekManuals.com

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Topband: Looking for hi-Z antenna

[Richard Quick]

I have as much of a compromised antenna for 160 as you can get.
A Butternut HF2V with a 160 coil, mounted on a chain link fence.
I have a small lot with overhead power lines across the back of the property, 
and Am looking for a better idea.
I’m thinking a hi impedance feed point antenna ie:450 ohms would require a much 
less extensive ground radial system than say, an inverted L with low impedance. 
Easier to match a 450 Ground than 37 ohms.
Am I nuts?  Anyone with ideas along this line of thinking?



Rich - W4RQ Amateur Radio: The Original Social Media
_
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Re: Topband: Portable transmit antenna suggestions?

[S57AD]

Spiderbeam sells 160m antenna kit (top loaded 60' vertical - telescopic
fiberglass pole, all the wires, etc,  Radials should be user supplied).
Just a suggestion...

73, Mirko S57AD

V V sre., 10. mar. 2021 ob 12:37 je oseba Rodman, David 
napisala:

> My group is planning a Caribbean trip next year for one of the CW
> contests.  If anyone has some ideas on design or deployment of temporary
> antennas for DX (160m or any low band actually), it would be helpful as we
> are in early planning.  If you have done this before, luggage is the
> preferred method to bring on the trip.  Please feel free to comment
> directly to me if you feel that bandwidth is not appropriate for this
> group.  Thanks.  (rodmanatbuffalodotedu)
>
>
> ---
> David J Rodman MD
> Assistant Clinical Professor
> Department of Ophthalmology
> SUNY/Buffalo
>
> Office 716-857-8654
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>


-- 
Mirko S57AD
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Topband: Portable transmit antenna suggestions?

[Rodman, David]

My group is planning a Caribbean trip next year for one of the CW contests.  If 
anyone has some ideas on design or deployment of temporary antennas for DX 
(160m or any low band actually), it would be helpful as we are in early 
planning.  If you have done this before, luggage is the preferred method to 
bring on the trip.  Please feel free to comment directly to me if you feel that 
bandwidth is not appropriate for this group.  Thanks.  (rodmanatbuffalodotedu)


---
David J Rodman MD
Assistant Clinical Professor
Department of Ophthalmology
SUNY/Buffalo

Office 716-857-8654
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector