Re: Topband: HEBA antenna
On 4/21/2024 9:00 AM, Jeff Blaine wrote: What I found interesting in the HEBA103 document was that it seemed the FS measurements were taken at ground level along two compass points. If I'm not mistaken, the power radiated is spread out over a 3-dimensional space and from that standpoint, I don't see how improved FS measurements taken on the near field at ground translate directly into "high efficiency." I didn't read the document. Based on my 60+ years old experience in Pete Johnson's consulting office as a young EE student, I would expect the determination of efficiency to be based on running a couple of radials (that is, making FS measurements at increasing distances, and at least tens of miles) and comparing them with a lab prediction of FS based on FCC ground conductivity data. I'm pretty certain that's what FCC would have required to approve the license. But on this topic, the only think I know **for certain** is that I'm a mental micro-midget compared to Maxwell. Same here. 73, Jim K9YC _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: HEBA antenna
What I found interesting in the HEBA103 document was that it seemed the FS measurements were taken at ground level along two compass points. If I'm not mistaken, the power radiated is spread out over a 3-dimensional space and from that standpoint, I don't see how improved FS measurements taken on the near field at ground translate directly into "high efficiency." But on this topic, the only think I know **for certain** is that I'm a mental micro-midget compared to Maxwell. 73/jeff/ac0c alpha-charlie-zero-charlie www.ac0c.com On 4/20/2024 3:19 PM, Jim Brown wrote: On 4/20/2024 9:18 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: Similarly, to the AM broadcaster, "Broadband" simply means sufficient bandwidth to keep the transmitter happy and avoid distortion of an IBOC digital signal. That is far more narrow than even a "50 KHz under 1.5:1" for amateurs on 160. Great points, Joe. I grew up a mile or two from a 5kW DA-N on 930 kHz, and as a college student worked at the station. One summer, I helped the chief engineer silver-solder new radials to new ground screens for the 4-tower array. The bandwidth issue jumped out at me as I drove through one of their nulls -- where the carrier cancelled, the sidebands didn't. 73, Jim K9YC _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: HEBA antenna
On 4/20/2024 9:18 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: Similarly, to the AM broadcaster, "Broadband" simply means sufficient bandwidth to keep the transmitter happy and avoid distortion of an IBOC digital signal. That is far more narrow than even a "50 KHz under 1.5:1" for amateurs on 160. Great points, Joe. I grew up a mile or two from a 5kW DA-N on 930 kHz, and as a college student worked at the station. One summer, I helped the chief engineer silver-solder new radials to new ground screens for the 4-tower array. The bandwidth issue jumped out at me as I drove through one of their nulls -- where the carrier cancelled, the sidebands didn't. 73, Jim K9YC _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: HEBA antenna
On 4/20/2024 11:57 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: > No one has commented on the "High Efficiency" "Broadband" claims, Unfortunately, "High Efficiency" and "Broadband" are relative terms and have a different meaning to the AM broadcasters than they do to amateurs. They amount to nothing more than marketing terms. To the broadcaster, "High Efficiency" simply means the same field strength as a "standard" (typically 90 degree) antenna over the standard 240 radial system. The HEB, given the field measurements, meets that standard. Here one is simply trading one set of losses for another. Similarly, to the AM broadcaster, "Broadband" simply means sufficient bandwidth to keep the transmitter happy and avoid distortion of an IBOC digital signal. That is far more narrow than even a "50 KHz under 1.5:1" for amateurs on 160. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 4/20/2024 11:57 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: No one has commented on the "High Efficiency" "Broadband" claims, so I will. No antenna of this size will simultaneously have both high efficiency and wide bandwidth, according to established limits in the literature. See K6OIK's Pacificon paper with the latest refinements to these limits. Additionally, narrow band antennas typically don't handle a lot of power. I doubt that this would be extensible to 50 kW. not that it matters for ham radio. When placed over ground, even with an elevated counterpoise, there would still be ground losses, which would affect efficiency. Also, although the antenna technically only occupies 1/8 acre, the fields will be very high within 1/6 of a wavelength, about 50 meters at 1 MHz. This covers 2 acres. I know my 90 foot 160m vertical, complete with guys, ground screen and top loading wires neatly fits within a 100 foot radius circle. about an acre. What's not to like about this? Rick N6RK _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: HEBA antenna
No one has commented on the "High Efficiency" "Broadband" claims, so I will. No antenna of this size will simultaneously have both high efficiency and wide bandwidth, according to established limits in the literature. See K6OIK's Pacificon paper with the latest refinements to these limits. Additionally, narrow band antennas typically don't handle a lot of power. I doubt that this would be extensible to 50 kW. not that it matters for ham radio. When placed over ground, even with an elevated counterpoise, there would still be ground losses, which would affect efficiency. Also, although the antenna technically only occupies 1/8 acre, the fields will be very high within 1/6 of a wavelength, about 50 meters at 1 MHz. This covers 2 acres. I know my 90 foot 160m vertical, complete with guys, ground screen and top loading wires neatly fits within a 100 foot radius circle. about an acre. What's not to like about this? Rick N6RK _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: HEBA antenna
Indeed. I think I'll apply for a patent on the Hocus-Pocus Antenna. This is the prior art: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/50/3f/f8/2b6215517b5e7a/US10644404.pdf Wes N7WS On Friday, April 19, 2024 at 12:45:36 PM MST, Dave Cuthbert wrote: The HEBA appears to be the same animal as the CFA (Crossed Field Antenna) patented by Dr. Kabbary and M.C. Hately in the late 1980s. As the HEBA Model 103 Performance Analysis says, *" WWAS accomplished this feat of engineering through the development of a two-element antenna that generates the electric field and the magnetic field separately."* This is the idea of the CFA where separately generated E and H fields combine in space to overcome one or more limitations of conventional antennas. I thought the CFA was debunked by the time the last one was sold by Dr. Kabbary's Egyptian antenna company in 2003. Up to that time there were several articles in AntenneX magazine about the antenna along with attempts to build and test it. Dr. Kirk McDonald, a regular author for AntenneX, goes into the math in his paper *“Crossed-Field” and “EH” Antennas Including Radiation from the Feed Lines and Reflection from the Earth’s Surface.* My NEC models at the time for a CFA driven as a standard monopole against the Kabbary-recommended 2-story, copper strapped building showed it operating well enough as a standard monopole. The CFA on top of the two-story building formed a center-loaded monopole. I can build that model again and report back here if anyone is interested. I will compare them to the HEBA performance analysis. Sometime around 2002 an Australian ham/BC engineer worked with Dr. Kabbary to tune up a CFA at an AM broadcast station in Australia. After Kabbary give up and returned to Egypt the amateur retuned the antenna as a standard monopole that exceeded the measured field strength of the CFA tuning. To me and others the promise of the CFA for topband was a heady time which helped propel me more deeply into antenna design and analysis. The CFA turned out to be both a disappointment and a good lesson. *Wikipedia CFA article* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossed_field_antenna * “Crossed-Field” and “EH” Antennas Including Radiation from the Feed Lines and Reflection from the Earth’s Surface*, Kirk McDonald, Princeton University http://kirkmcd.princeton.edu/examples/crossedfield.pdf *HEBA Model 103 Performance Analysis* https://www.thebdr.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/high-efficiency-broadband-plain-english.pdf Dave KH6AQ On Fri, Apr 19, 2024 at 6:01 AM Radio KH6O wrote: > I'd like to see a version of this for 160M: > > > https://www.radioworld.com/news-and-business/headlines/wqvram-is-granted-cp-to-use-heba-antenna-at-night > > -- > 73, > Jeff KH6O / 6 > _ > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband > Reflector > _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: HEBA antenna
The HEBA/CFA for MF AM broadcasting (there was one planned for an LF BC station on the Isle of Man) has been commercially tested only for ground wave coverage as one would for a full size BC monopole antenna. I am going on the assumption that there is no "crossed-field" radiation occurring and that the HEBA is just a short, fat monopole. As such it has the elevation radiation characteristics just like any other monopole 90 degrees or less in height. Maximum radiation depends on the far-field ground characteristics. Dave KH6AQ (formerly WX7G) On Fri, Apr 19, 2024 at 9:58 AM Mike Fatchett W0MU wrote: > What is the desired coverage area for the antenna? I would expect it to > be very small, local area coverage of 50 miles or so. What is the take > off angle etc. > > W0MU Mike > > On 4/19/2024 1:41 PM, Dave Cuthbert wrote: > > The HEBA appears to be the same animal as the CFA (Crossed Field Antenna) > > patented by Dr. Kabbary and M.C. Hately in the late 1980s. As the HEBA > > Model 103 Performance Analysis says, *" WWAS accomplished this feat of > > engineering through the development of a two-element antenna that > generates > > the electric field and the magnetic field separately."* This is the idea > of > > the CFA where separately generated E and H fields combine in space to > > overcome one or more limitations of conventional antennas. > > > > I thought the CFA was debunked by the time the last one was sold by Dr. > > Kabbary's Egyptian antenna company in 2003. Up to that time there were > > several articles in AntenneX magazine about the antenna along with > attempts > > to build and test it. Dr. Kirk McDonald, a regular author for AntenneX, > > goes into the math in his paper *“Crossed-Field” and “EH” Antennas > > Including Radiation from the Feed Lines and Reflection from the Earth’s > > Surface.* > > > > My NEC models at the time for a CFA driven as a standard monopole against > > the Kabbary-recommended 2-story, copper strapped building showed it > > operating well enough as a standard monopole. The CFA on top of the > > two-story building formed a center-loaded monopole. I can build that > model > > again and report back here if anyone is interested. I will compare them > to > > the HEBA performance analysis. > > > > Sometime around 2002 an Australian ham/BC engineer worked with Dr. > Kabbary > > to tune up a CFA at an AM broadcast station in Australia. After Kabbary > > give up and returned to Egypt the amateur retuned the antenna as a > standard > > monopole that exceeded the measured field strength of the CFA tuning. To > me > > and others the promise of the CFA for topband was a heady time which > helped > > propel me more deeply into antenna design and analysis. The CFA turned > out > > to be both a disappointment and a good lesson. > > > > *Wikipedia CFA article* > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossed_field_antenna > > > > * “Crossed-Field” and “EH” Antennas Including Radiation from the Feed > Lines > > and Reflection from the Earth’s Surface*, Kirk McDonald, Princeton > > University > > http://kirkmcd.princeton.edu/examples/crossedfield.pdf > > > > *HEBA Model 103 Performance Analysis* > > > https://www.thebdr.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/high-efficiency-broadband-plain-english.pdf > > > > Dave KH6AQ > > > > On Fri, Apr 19, 2024 at 6:01 AM Radio KH6O wrote: > > > >> I'd like to see a version of this for 160M: > >> > >> > >> > https://www.radioworld.com/news-and-business/headlines/wqvram-is-granted-cp-to-use-heba-antenna-at-night > >> > >> -- > >> 73, > >> Jeff KH6O / 6 > >> _ > >> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband > >> Reflector > >> > > _ > > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband > Reflector > > _ > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband > Reflector > _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: HEBA antenna
What is the desired coverage area for the antenna? I would expect it to be very small, local area coverage of 50 miles or so. What is the take off angle etc. W0MU Mike On 4/19/2024 1:41 PM, Dave Cuthbert wrote: The HEBA appears to be the same animal as the CFA (Crossed Field Antenna) patented by Dr. Kabbary and M.C. Hately in the late 1980s. As the HEBA Model 103 Performance Analysis says, *" WWAS accomplished this feat of engineering through the development of a two-element antenna that generates the electric field and the magnetic field separately."* This is the idea of the CFA where separately generated E and H fields combine in space to overcome one or more limitations of conventional antennas. I thought the CFA was debunked by the time the last one was sold by Dr. Kabbary's Egyptian antenna company in 2003. Up to that time there were several articles in AntenneX magazine about the antenna along with attempts to build and test it. Dr. Kirk McDonald, a regular author for AntenneX, goes into the math in his paper *“Crossed-Field” and “EH” Antennas Including Radiation from the Feed Lines and Reflection from the Earth’s Surface.* My NEC models at the time for a CFA driven as a standard monopole against the Kabbary-recommended 2-story, copper strapped building showed it operating well enough as a standard monopole. The CFA on top of the two-story building formed a center-loaded monopole. I can build that model again and report back here if anyone is interested. I will compare them to the HEBA performance analysis. Sometime around 2002 an Australian ham/BC engineer worked with Dr. Kabbary to tune up a CFA at an AM broadcast station in Australia. After Kabbary give up and returned to Egypt the amateur retuned the antenna as a standard monopole that exceeded the measured field strength of the CFA tuning. To me and others the promise of the CFA for topband was a heady time which helped propel me more deeply into antenna design and analysis. The CFA turned out to be both a disappointment and a good lesson. *Wikipedia CFA article* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossed_field_antenna * “Crossed-Field” and “EH” Antennas Including Radiation from the Feed Lines and Reflection from the Earth’s Surface*, Kirk McDonald, Princeton University http://kirkmcd.princeton.edu/examples/crossedfield.pdf *HEBA Model 103 Performance Analysis* https://www.thebdr.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/high-efficiency-broadband-plain-english.pdf Dave KH6AQ On Fri, Apr 19, 2024 at 6:01 AM Radio KH6O wrote: I'd like to see a version of this for 160M: https://www.radioworld.com/news-and-business/headlines/wqvram-is-granted-cp-to-use-heba-antenna-at-night -- 73, Jeff KH6O / 6 _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: HEBA antenna
On Fri, Apr 19, 2024, 2:42 PM Dave Cuthbert wrote: > ... " WWAS accomplished this feat of > engineering through the development of a two-element antenna that generates > the electric field and the magnetic field separately." ... > Ah, he claimed to know more that James Clerk Maxwell, did he? Those fields are inseparable. :-) 73 Mike W0BTU > _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: HEBA antenna
The HEBA appears to be the same animal as the CFA (Crossed Field Antenna) patented by Dr. Kabbary and M.C. Hately in the late 1980s. As the HEBA Model 103 Performance Analysis says, *" WWAS accomplished this feat of engineering through the development of a two-element antenna that generates the electric field and the magnetic field separately."* This is the idea of the CFA where separately generated E and H fields combine in space to overcome one or more limitations of conventional antennas. I thought the CFA was debunked by the time the last one was sold by Dr. Kabbary's Egyptian antenna company in 2003. Up to that time there were several articles in AntenneX magazine about the antenna along with attempts to build and test it. Dr. Kirk McDonald, a regular author for AntenneX, goes into the math in his paper *“Crossed-Field” and “EH” Antennas Including Radiation from the Feed Lines and Reflection from the Earth’s Surface.* My NEC models at the time for a CFA driven as a standard monopole against the Kabbary-recommended 2-story, copper strapped building showed it operating well enough as a standard monopole. The CFA on top of the two-story building formed a center-loaded monopole. I can build that model again and report back here if anyone is interested. I will compare them to the HEBA performance analysis. Sometime around 2002 an Australian ham/BC engineer worked with Dr. Kabbary to tune up a CFA at an AM broadcast station in Australia. After Kabbary give up and returned to Egypt the amateur retuned the antenna as a standard monopole that exceeded the measured field strength of the CFA tuning. To me and others the promise of the CFA for topband was a heady time which helped propel me more deeply into antenna design and analysis. The CFA turned out to be both a disappointment and a good lesson. *Wikipedia CFA article* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossed_field_antenna * “Crossed-Field” and “EH” Antennas Including Radiation from the Feed Lines and Reflection from the Earth’s Surface*, Kirk McDonald, Princeton University http://kirkmcd.princeton.edu/examples/crossedfield.pdf *HEBA Model 103 Performance Analysis* https://www.thebdr.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/high-efficiency-broadband-plain-english.pdf Dave KH6AQ On Fri, Apr 19, 2024 at 6:01 AM Radio KH6O wrote: > I'd like to see a version of this for 160M: > > > https://www.radioworld.com/news-and-business/headlines/wqvram-is-granted-cp-to-use-heba-antenna-at-night > > -- > 73, > Jeff KH6O / 6 > _ > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband > Reflector > _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: HEBA antenna
On 4/19/2024 10:27 AM, Henry Pollock - K4TMC wrote: Isn't this basically a vertical dipole with capacity hats. I will admit that the top capacity hat is prettier than the copper foil bottom hat. Yes, that's exactly what it looks like. Tom Schiller, N6BT, developed and mfd several designs, both for portable operation and for permanent installation.Tom was the engineer/owner of the original Force 12. Based on his work, W6GJB and I developed and built several versions for 80M FD and county expeditions. The Gap Titan, Hi-Gain AV-series, and Cushcraft R-series are multi-band vertical dipoles. Ten years ago, I published this study showing that elevating vertical antennas increases their radiation efficiency and can also lower the angle of their main lobe in the vertical plane. http://k9yc.com/VerticalHeight.pdf 73, Jim K9YC _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: HEBA antenna
Look up “Crossed Field Antenna” on Wikipedia… 73, Kevin K3OX -Original Message- From: Phil To: topband Date: Friday, 19 April 2024 12:57 PM EDT Subject: Re: Topband: HEBA antenna H 38 feet seems manageable 73 Phil, KBØNES On Friday, April 19, 2024 at 11:13:56 AM CDT, Radio KH6O wrote: I'd like to see a version of this for 160M: https://www.radioworld.com/news-and-business/headlines/wqvram-is-granted-cp-to-use-heba-antenna-at-night -- 73, Jeff KH6O / 6 _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: HEBA antenna
Wouldn't it be slightly shorter than the one designed for 1705kHz. Isn't this basically a vertical dipole with capacity hats. I will admit that the top capacity hat is prettier than the copper foil bottom hat. 73, Henry - K4TMC On Fri, Apr 19, 2024 at 12:01 PM Radio KH6O wrote: > I'd like to see a version of this for 160M: > > > https://www.radioworld.com/news-and-business/headlines/wqvram-is-granted-cp-to-use-heba-antenna-at-night > > -- > 73, > Jeff KH6O / 6 > _ > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband > Reflector > _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: HEBA antenna
H 38 feet seems manageable 73 Phil, KBØNES On Friday, April 19, 2024 at 11:13:56 AM CDT, Radio KH6O wrote: I'd like to see a version of this for 160M: https://www.radioworld.com/news-and-business/headlines/wqvram-is-granted-cp-to-use-heba-antenna-at-night -- 73, Jeff KH6O / 6 _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Topband: HEBA antenna
I'd like to see a version of this for 160M: https://www.radioworld.com/news-and-business/headlines/wqvram-is-granted-cp-to-use-heba-antenna-at-night -- 73, Jeff KH6O / 6 _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
