On 08/13/2014 09:47 AM, Tom W8JI wrote:
Transmitting is a different story, if lower angles are used. I doubt,
however, it is ever close to 10-20 dB unless it is groundwave
propagation. I'm sure people somewhere have actual numbers on that.
One big question is, where does the path loss on top
: Mark Connelly lt;markwa1...@aol.comgt;, TopBand List
lt;topband@contesting.comgt;
Sent: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 21:21:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 11:24 AM, Tom W8JI lt;w...@w8ji.comgt; wrote:
gt; Why would it matter?
gt;
gt
I'll just stick in a few responses to others' comments about what I
wrote on the 'beach' thread and then I'll get out of the way.
It is tricky to use receiving tests to gauge the
effectiveness of proposed transmitting antennas
for two reasons. You are probably listening on
receiving type
On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 11:24 AM, Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com wrote:
Why would it matter?
The receiving antenna does not matter, provided it responds to the wave
angle at the receive site. It doesn't matter if it is loop, a 10 foot
vertical, or a 200 foot vertical so long as the antenna does not
You clearly have not been subject to Finding True North and its
endless reincarnations on TopBand reflector, or you would not be
complaining about such a minor thread as this. :)
73, Guy.
On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 7:03 PM, Eddy Swynar deswy...@xplornet.ca wrote:
Hi Guys,
ENOUGH of the
--- Original message ---
From: Hardy Landskov n...@cox.net
To: ea...@ono.com, hsv...@juno.com
Cc: Topband@Contesting.com, w...@w8ji.com
Sent: 17.8.'14, 3:47
Juan,
Am I wrong to assume that skimmers are not calibrated? They should be
calibrated to S-9=50 uV into 50 ohms at least to
the proverbial vertical on a beach
--- Original message ---
From: Hardy Landskov n...@cox.net
To: ea...@ono.com, hsv...@juno.com
Cc: Topband@Contesting.com, w...@w8ji.com
Sent: 17.8.'14, 3:47
Juan,
Am I wrong to assume that skimmers are not calibrated? They should be
calibrated to S-9=50
...@w8ji.com
Asunto: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
--- Original message ---
From: Hardy Landskov n...@cox.net
To: ea...@ono.com, hsv...@juno.com
Cc: Topband@Contesting.com, w...@w8ji.com
Sent: 17.8.'14, 3:47
Juan,
Am I wrong to assume that skimmers are not calibrated
Asunto: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
I am not a Skimmer expert, and am just asking. Question: Are all the
Skimmers individually(and collectively) calibrated in concert? Can one rely
on them for comparing scientific data and conclusion to prove or ascertain a
point?Val
the dipole. I am sure that a high beam would be better, however this
suitcase station was good enough to win a contest plaque.
John KK9A - P40A
To: Juan EA5RS ea...@ono.com
Subject:Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
From: Stan Stockton wa5...@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 17
Years ago when I was working the 80 meter DX from the mobile, beyond working
VK6LK long path, I was checking out salt water locations.
I found that the closer I got to the East facing salt water, the stronger
Europe-Africa received signals. Getting right up to the water edge was
noticeable
On 8/16/2014 7:45 PM, Mark Connelly via Topband wrote:
Some long-time observations from about 55 years of AM broadcast band
DXing MAY have some relevance to this discussion.
It is tricky to use receiving tests to gauge the
effectiveness of proposed transmitting antennas
for two reasons.
One excellent example of use vertical array for HF on the beach was VP6DX
Ducie Island 2008
http://ducie2008.dl1mgb.com/equipment/index.php
Fantastic performance and results.
N4IS
JC
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
_
Topband
That was a very interesting post Mark and thanks for taking the time.
In the mid 60's to 80's I was very interested in LF and MF BCB DXing and at
first I had a loaner HRO-500 (I worked at National 1963-69) and later my own
with the LF-10 preselector which I still have and use here for general
Hi Guys,
ENOUGH of the ...modeling the proverbial 'vertical on the beach' already...!
My delete button is beginning to wear out.
Just ...Build it, and they will come. Period.
~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
I swear I am going to start a self serving thread called “ vertical near by to
a beach.”☺
Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ
Sent from Windows Mail
From: Eddy Swynar
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 7:03 PM
To: Carl
Cc: Mark Connelly, topband@contesting.com
Hi Guys,
ENOUGH of the
: Sunday, August 17, 2014 7:09 PM
To: Eddy Swynar; Carl
Cc: Mark Connelly; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
I swear I am going to start a self serving thread called “ vertical near by to
a beach.”☺
Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ
...@w8ji.com
To: Michael Tope w...@dellroy.com, topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 19:06:44 -0400
I looked at comparative data from four or five contests.
I'm too far out of the path and in distance (approaching 1000 miles
that
make no sense..
Hardy N7RT
- Original Message -
From: Juan EA5RS ea...@ono.com
To: 'Hugh Valentine' hsv...@juno.com
Cc: Topband@Contesting.com; w...@w8ji.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
As far as I
On 8/15/2014 6:51 AM, Tom W8JI wrote:
For receiving, an absence of noise sources in the path is all the
difference in the world. As an example of this look at what N7JW and
K7CA did from the Utah desert area. Utah desert is like the
anti-saltwater, and they are located much further from
Some long-time observations from about 55 years of AM broadcast band
DXing MAY have some relevance to this discussion.
That hobby has had a lot of simultaneous inland-versus-coastal signal
strength comparison studies over the years, largely from the US and
Canadian Atlantic and Pacific coasts
-- EnCase Certified Examiner ---
-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Tope
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 9:01 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
On 8/15/2014 6
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com wrote:
One would think if there was a 10-20 db penalty, it would show on
skimmers and that W2GD would be unbeatable being on the water.
I'm sure I'm missing something. What is it I am missing?
A contest certainly is not only about
performance.
73 JEFF K1ZM/VY2ZM
Original Message
From: Guy Olinger K2AV k2av@gmail.com
To: Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com
Cc: TopBand List topband@contesting.com; Guy Olinger K2AV k2av@gmail.com
Sent: Fri, Aug 15, 2014 7:20 am
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial
The signals showing the most change were not the loudest. They were
the ones on the edge of the developing band opening. The stronger or
peak signals from these stations would occur later as (presumably) the
angle of arrival moved up. The advantage to the water's edge I was
hearing would only
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
The signals showing the most change were not the loudest. They were
the ones on the edge of the developing band opening. The stronger or
peak signals from these stations would occur later as (presumably) the
angle of arrival moved up
: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
For receiving, an absence of noise sources in the path is all the
difference in the world. As an example of this look at what N7JW and K7CA
did from the Utah desert area. Utah desert is like the anti-saltwater, and
they are located much
That makes no sense at all. What are you trying to say?
- Original Message -
From: Carl k...@jeremy.mv.com
To: Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com; 'TopBand List' topband@contesting.com
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
Almost very true Tim.
Please see my lowband dxpedition experience at vu7ag summarised in my
blog link below
My topband experience is only in dxpedtions.
http://vu2abs.blogspot.in/2014/08/my-low-band-experience-in-vu7ag-2013.html
We just announced our next expedition to Andaman and Nicobar
,
Charlie, K4OTV
-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Carl
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 12:39 PM
To: Tom W8JI; 'TopBand List'
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
A 3CX15000B7 or similar makes up for a lot of things
...@nc.rr.com
To: 'Carl' k...@jeremy.mv.com; 'Tom W8JI' w...@w8ji.com; 'TopBand
List' topband@contesting.com
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 2:27 PM
Subject: RE: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
Doesn't help you HEAR any better!
Generally, on top band, even with my modest
- Original Message -
From: Michael Tope w...@dellroy.com
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
On 8/13/2014 6:28 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:
But skimmer, which displays a relative level, does not show the level
Vertical on a beach DXpeditions have a very different mindset about
choosing operating hours and greyline openings, than other kinds of
DXpeditions.
Often they are also away from the RFI sources that are increasingly present
even off the mainland.
It should not be surprising that, over and above
- Original Message -
From: k1fz k...@myfairpoint.net
To: topband topband@contesting.com
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 8:33 AM
Subject: Topband: Fw: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
Also, KFI can be heard
at noon in the SF Bay Area on ground wave, but the same
cannot
To: Guy Olinger K2AV k2av@gmail.com
Cc: TopBand List topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 08:49:32 -0400
Vertical on a beach DXpeditions have a very different mindset about
choosing operating hours and greyline openings, than
On 8/13/2014 6:28 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:
But skimmer, which displays a relative level, does not show the level
difference.
Skimmer shows about the same peak levels, but the stations closer or
over salt water paths (not localized salt water) have longer openings
but no more level for peak
systems.
Watch skimmer yourself. It is entertaining to watch.
73 Tom
- Original Message -
From: Michael Tope w...@dellroy.com
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
On 8/13/2014 6:28
[mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Tope
Sent: Donnerstag, 14. August 2014 23:04
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
On 8/13/2014 6:28 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:
But skimmer, which displays a relative level, does not show
FWIW, here's a site where someone apparently did some tests. Someone posted
it on eHam the other day in a similar discussion.
http://www.k2kw.com/verticals/verticalinfo.htm
73, Mike
www.w0btu.com
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
I wonder if they had read the report mentioned by Chuck Hutton a few days ago:
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1968-45.pdf
It would seem to shed some light on what they observed.
There are other, more theoretical, papers of similar vintage that
address the issue for those who want
The link in the opening post of this thread shows an interesting, animated
analysis of the elevation gains of a monopole, based on a NEC far-field
analysis not including the surface wave.
I then posted this comment, Reality is that radiation leaving the monopole
at elevation angles of at
this brings back a lot of memories..i arrived on rarotonga a week
after a French Dxpidition did, who was set up in the K2KW motel room with
vertical antennas on the beach just as you would imagine. the motel
management said she was sorry, and set me up in a cottage (from the same
motel)
- Original Message -
From: Yuri Blanarovich k...@optimum.net
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 08:14 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:
- Original Message - From: Yuri
im ny life i have never been is a quieter radio location than rarotonga!
mike w7dra
On Wed, 13 Aug 2014 09:47:06 -0400 Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com writes:
this brings back a lot of memories..i arrived on rarotonga
a week
after a French Dxpidition did, who was set up in the K2KW motel
Modeling programs are an excellent tool to calculate and predict some
properties of antennas - radiators.
What they do not see is the propagation mechanism after RF leaves the
antenna. Space wave can be hugging wave.
While the high frequencies signals behave more like high frequency
sounds -
Wow the more this thread goes the deeper the s**t gets,
the first poster has no chance,,
reminds me of a pig wrestling contest, you jump in and all you do is get is
full of mud and s**t.
Im heading down to the beach and going to holler real loud, see if any of
you guys in CA can hear my
One would think if there was a 10-20 db penalty, it would show on
skimmers
and that W2GD would be unbeatable being on the water. I'm sure I'm
missing
something. What is it I am missing?
A contest certainly is not only about transmit signal strength, nor is
the lowest angle propagation always
Anyone who is familiar with the San Francisco Bay Area has noted
KGO's three AM broadcast band transmitting antennas located *IN* the
water of the East Bay. From KGO's history page:
Three 300-foot towers were constructed, each anchored in salt water.
KGO became the first San Francisco station to
On 8/13/2014 8:12 PM, Radio KH6O wrote:
Anyone who is familiar with the San Francisco Bay Area has noted
KGO's three AM broadcast band transmitting antennas located *IN* the
water of the East Bay. From KGO's history page:
You would think this would make KGO a superstation, however, my
One last thought on this..
When I came back to the mainland in 2010 the only rig I had was my truck,
an ICOM 706 and a Tarheel screwdriver antennanot exactly a super setup.
I was really craving a radio fix so for the 2010 phone sweepstakes I drove
my truck on dirt road that
; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
Yuri,
Thanks for your input. Tom asks, where are the other stations? It is a one
pony race. Well I am sure if we look at the CQ logs for that year we will
see that there were other Carib stations on but we did
@contesting.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
Just to set the record straight, I have no doubt saltwater helps
propagation at most angles.
I probably did not make my point very well. My point is, with no
comparison
us off track, and lead to unnecessary debates
and arguments.
- Original Message - From: Tom W8JI To: Sent: Tuesday,
August 12, 2014 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
Just to set the record straight, I have no doubt saltwater helps
propagation
Wow, nice S-meter...
-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Yuri
Blanarovich
Oh, here comes the guru again. :-)
Unnecessary debate? We are talking about experiences and RESULTS of
comparing normal in land ground effect vs. salt water beach
- Original Message -
From: Yuri Blanarovich k...@optimum.net
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
Oh, here comes the guru again. :-)
Is that immature stuff really necessary
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 08:14 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:
- Original Message - From: Yuri Blanarovich To: Sent:
Tuesday, August 12, 2014 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
Oh, here comes the guru again. :-)
Is that immature stuff really
-
From: Yuri Blanarovich k...@optimum.net
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 08:14 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:
- Original Message - From: Yuri Blanarovich To: Sent
to live there.
My final 2 centsI vote we move on.
73 N7RT
- Original Message -
From: Yuri Blanarovich k...@optimum.net
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014
The riveting experience I draw on is one particular IOTA contest where our
group was operating as N4A on Core Banks, NC. The bands were full of
signals in the early afternoon, including stuff on 40 from Europe really
before the band was quite open.
I was walking around with a battery Elecraft
I can only provide anecdotal evidence.
In July 1997 we did CY9AA and our 160m antenna turned out to be a 130' wire,
suspended by a large helium/mylar balloon.
We mounted the base in the rocks right at the waters edge on the
North/Northeast-ish edge of the smaller north Island of St. Paul.
Condx
would be. It's like a drag race with just one car, or a pony show with
one horse.
- Original Message - From: Hardy Landskov To: Tom W8JI ;
TopBand List Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
Tom,
I was totallly
KM1H
- Original Message -
From: Yuri Blanarovich k...@optimum.net
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 9:30 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
One pony needs to get into one drag radio car and drive around the ocean
front, over
really don't how other signals
would be. It's like a drag race with just one car, or a pony show with one
horse.
- Original Message - From: Hardy Landskov To: Tom W8JI ;
TopBand List Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
I can only offer another anecdotal account to the subject. It started 44
years ago when I, Steve, K9CQV (K0SX), Ken, W0KUS, and Julius, K8HKB set up
shop on San Andres Island and signed our calls portable HK0 for a week.
With the help of Victor, HK0AI we had a location at the water's edge.
Guy Olinger wrote:
Just to mention that the prior opinion is controversial and not
universally agreed upon. Nor to date has anyone surfaced with actual
measurements made at the distances (25 to 50 km) and with span of altitudes
(0 to 10 km) to either prove or disprove either side.
Not
K2AV k2av@gmail.com
To: Richard Fry r...@adams.net
Cc: TopBand List topband@contesting.com
Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2014 8:35 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
Just to mention that the prior opinion is controversial and not
universally
agreed upon. Nor
, August 10, 2014 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
Tom,
I was totallly not expecting any station from that direction, just thought
I'd work a few locals with high incident angles before Sunset here. Then I
heard the 6Y2 guys and it was amazing. He
Just to note that the low-angle radiation produced by monopoles is not
accurately shown by a NEC model/study that does not include the surface
wave, regardless of whether one or two ground-plane media are specified in
the model.
Below is a link to a NEC study of the low-angle fields of a
Just to mention that the prior opinion is controversial and not universally
agreed upon. Nor to date has anyone surfaced with actual measurements made
at the distances (25 to 50 km) and with span of altitudes (0 to 10 km) to
either prove or disprove either side.
It remains unproven modelling from
The latest AutoEZ update includes the ability to create EZNEC models having 2
separate ground media. One typical use is to model a vertical located on a
sandy beach next to salt water.
Using AutoEZ you can assign a variable to the media 2 linear boundary and then
run a series of test cases
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