Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
No need for it to be a mystery. The NISTweb site has the WWV, WWVB, and WWVH info is accessible from here: https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/radio-stations Specific info on WWVB is here: https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/radio-stations/wwvb Gus Hansen KB0YH On 8/25/2018 8:56 PM, Wes Attaway (N5WA) wrote: Whatever it is, my clocks check it. I know it is not WWL. Maybe it is WWV(B)(xyz) _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
Whatever it is, my clocks check it. I know it is not WWL. Maybe it is WWV(B)(xyz) --- Wes Attaway (N5WA) (318) 393-3289 - Shreveport, LA Computer/Cellphone Forensics AttawayForensics.com --- -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Richard (Rick) Karlquist Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2018 4:08 PM To: wesattaway; Don Kirk; jim.t...@telus.net Cc: topband Subject: Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure On 8/25/2018 1:59 PM, wesattaway wrote: > Half the clocks in our house check WWW every night. > WWW? More likely they check WWVB. I know mine do. Rick N6RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
On 8/25/2018 1:59 PM, wesattaway wrote: Half the clocks in our house check WWW every night. WWW? More likely they check WWVB. I know mine do. Rick N6RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
Half the clocks in our house check WWW every night. ---Wes Attaway (N5WA)(318) 393-3289 - Shreveport, LAComputer/Cellphone ForensicsAttawayForensics.com Original message From: Don Kirk Date: 8/25/18 2:55 PM (GMT-06:00) To: jim.t...@telus.net Cc: topband Subject: Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure Hi Jim, You said "The accuracy of both devices far exceeds my needs", but let me play the devils advocate. Unless you send those devices into an accredited lab on a regular basis, you can't say they are accurate (unless you can check them from home on a regular basis directly against a frequency standard that's traceable directly back to NIST which would be WWV, WWVH, WWVB, etc.). I'm sure this sounds like a radical viewpoint, but just wanted to play the devils advocate on this one. P.S. NIST did publish a document about GPSDO traceability and here is the URL to it which is good reading and it partially supports some of my comments, but not totally. https://ws680.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=842479 Don (wd8dsb) On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 12:33 PM Jim Thomson wrote: > Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 22:49:49 -0400 > From: "Paul Christensen" > To: > Subject: Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure > > that > reasonably cover North America; (2) In the U.S., AM broadcast stations are > required to maintain +/- 20 Hz carrier stability (73.1545). However, > nearly > all modern BC transmitters can easily meet 2 Hz, and some are now > phase-locked to a precision standard. > > Most modern amateur gear covers the MW band. One could sample several AMBC > stations, throw out the outliers, then calculate a geometric mean and > attain > a very accurate reference. Incidentally, some legacy ham-band-only gear > never did cover WWV -- or if it did, it was received by a different band > mixing scheme, then a pre-selector is peaked for resonance. > > In the shack, I use a GPSDO with a distribution amp that locks several > transceivers and some test equipment. A surplus $100 USD rubidium standard > is Velcro-strapped to my HP frequency counter. It comes up to temperature > and locks within 5 minutes of powering. The accuracy of both devices far > exceeds my needs. > > Paul, W9AC > > ## After very carefully aligning the .25 ppm TCXO in both my yaesu > MK-Vs... > using the 20 mhz wwv, I tuned across the entire AM 540-1710 khz > band, and only found > ONE station that was dead on freq, and that was CBC on 690 khz, in > Vancouver BC. > The rest were several hz too high..or several hz too low. Some were > as much as 20 hz off freq. > > ## Even if you could find just one AM broadcaster that was dead on > freq, the 540-1710 band is > much too low to align a TCXO. If say you were off by 1 hz at 1000 > khz, you would be off 10 hz > at 10 mhz..and 30 hz at 30 mhz, etc. And with no high freq WWV to > compare to, you would have no > clue as to which of the myriad of 540-1710 AM broadcast stations is > actually anywhere close to being on freq. > > ## CHU broadcasts on just 3.33 mhz, 7.85 mhz..and 14.67 mhz. All 3 > are pretty weak here on the west coast. > WWV is instead used here on the west coast, as CHU is typ too > unreliable. > The price tag on all this surplus GPSDO / rubidium gear will > skyrocket if and when WWV is shut down. > I can not see WWVB being shut down at all, too many consumer devices > rely on it. > > Jim VE7RF > > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
Hi Jim, You said "The accuracy of both devices far exceeds my needs", but let me play the devils advocate. Unless you send those devices into an accredited lab on a regular basis, you can't say they are accurate (unless you can check them from home on a regular basis directly against a frequency standard that's traceable directly back to NIST which would be WWV, WWVH, WWVB, etc.). I'm sure this sounds like a radical viewpoint, but just wanted to play the devils advocate on this one. P.S. NIST did publish a document about GPSDO traceability and here is the URL to it which is good reading and it partially supports some of my comments, but not totally. https://ws680.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=842479 Don (wd8dsb) On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 12:33 PM Jim Thomson wrote: > Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 22:49:49 -0400 > From: "Paul Christensen" > To: > Subject: Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure > > that > reasonably cover North America; (2) In the U.S., AM broadcast stations are > required to maintain +/- 20 Hz carrier stability (73.1545). However, > nearly > all modern BC transmitters can easily meet 2 Hz, and some are now > phase-locked to a precision standard. > > Most modern amateur gear covers the MW band. One could sample several AMBC > stations, throw out the outliers, then calculate a geometric mean and > attain > a very accurate reference. Incidentally, some legacy ham-band-only gear > never did cover WWV -- or if it did, it was received by a different band > mixing scheme, then a pre-selector is peaked for resonance. > > In the shack, I use a GPSDO with a distribution amp that locks several > transceivers and some test equipment. A surplus $100 USD rubidium standard > is Velcro-strapped to my HP frequency counter. It comes up to temperature > and locks within 5 minutes of powering. The accuracy of both devices far > exceeds my needs. > > Paul, W9AC > > ## After very carefully aligning the .25 ppm TCXO in both my yaesu > MK-Vs... > using the 20 mhz wwv, I tuned across the entire AM 540-1710 khz > band, and only found > ONE station that was dead on freq, and that was CBC on 690 khz, in > Vancouver BC. > The rest were several hz too high..or several hz too low. Some were > as much as 20 hz off freq. > > ## Even if you could find just one AM broadcaster that was dead on > freq, the 540-1710 band is > much too low to align a TCXO. If say you were off by 1 hz at 1000 > khz, you would be off 10 hz > at 10 mhz..and 30 hz at 30 mhz, etc. And with no high freq WWV to > compare to, you would have no > clue as to which of the myriad of 540-1710 AM broadcast stations is > actually anywhere close to being on freq. > > ## CHU broadcasts on just 3.33 mhz, 7.85 mhz..and 14.67 mhz. All 3 > are pretty weak here on the west coast. > WWV is instead used here on the west coast, as CHU is typ too > unreliable. > The price tag on all this surplus GPSDO / rubidium gear will > skyrocket if and when WWV is shut down. > I can not see WWVB being shut down at all, too many consumer devices > rely on it. > > Jim VE7RF > > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
Yes, we all pretty much agree it would be in the best interest of the majority to keep it active. However, spend a moment of think of how this came about. Young, millennial staff members are following the mandate to find available budget money to match a proposed administration budget. Millennials - therein lies the problem. They are not technically conversant, live in today's world of handheld real-time communication, have never had much, if any, science education, and probably never staffed the WWV idea with the various Federal communications folks. The answer - correspond or call your Representative and Senators to register an objection. Yes, most of them won't have a clue, but you can believe they'll find out when the tally adds up. Ham, KB4BR -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim Thomson Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2018 12:33 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 22:49:49 -0400 From: "Paul Christensen" To: Subject: Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 22:49:49 -0400 From: "Paul Christensen" To: Subject: Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
Bingo. Just like "government shutdowns" where they close Grand Canyon or Yellowstone NPs. Maximize the pain for the general public so we scream. N7WS On 8/24/2018 5:21 AM, Brian Pease wrote: It seems to me that this may be similar to the time when the Government threatened to cut the VHF weather broadcasts or when schools threaten to cut popular arts or sports programs. I could be wrong, but they may simply be trying to gain sympathy for a larger budget. Brian, W1IR, VT _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
You are so correct... 73, Bruce, W8HW On 8/24/2018 8:21 AM, Brian Pease wrote: It seems to me that this may be similar to the time when the Government threatened to cut the VHF weather broadcasts or when schools threaten to cut popular arts or sports programs. I could be wrong, but they may simply be trying to gain sympathy for a larger budget. Brian, W1IR, VT On 8/22/2018 8:29 AM, Dale Putnam wrote: Seems to me that if they get to cut one program.. they will go after the next one with speed and alaricity. Nothing slows a money hungry bureaucrate, when on the trail of free money. and closing something they don't know about.. is free money to spend on a pet project they do know about. Have a great day, --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy "Actions speak louder than words" 1856 - Abraham Lincoln From: Topband on behalf of Don Kirk Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:10 AM To: HP Cc: topband Subject: Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure Hi Hank, The 60 kHz transmissions are done by WWVB. No mention of WWVB being impacted by the new budget proposal. Just FYI, and 73. Don (wd8dsb) On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 1:02 AM, HP wrote: Seems to me the people who should be screaming bloody murder are all the millions with watches and clocks that correct using the 60 kHz transmissions . Most of those millions probably know absolutely nothing about this . How do you reach them ? Hank K7HP _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband Topband Archives - Contesting Online Home<http://www.contesting.com/_topband> www.contesting.com Topband Mailing List Archives. Search String: [How to search] Display:. Description:. Sort: _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
It seems to me that this may be similar to the time when the Government threatened to cut the VHF weather broadcasts or when schools threaten to cut popular arts or sports programs. I could be wrong, but they may simply be trying to gain sympathy for a larger budget. Brian, W1IR, VT On 8/22/2018 8:29 AM, Dale Putnam wrote: Seems to me that if they get to cut one program.. they will go after the next one with speed and alaricity. Nothing slows a money hungry bureaucrate, when on the trail of free money. and closing something they don't know about.. is free money to spend on a pet project they do know about. Have a great day, --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy "Actions speak louder than words" 1856 - Abraham Lincoln From: Topband on behalf of Don Kirk Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:10 AM To: HP Cc: topband Subject: Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure Hi Hank, The 60 kHz transmissions are done by WWVB. No mention of WWVB being impacted by the new budget proposal. Just FYI, and 73. Don (wd8dsb) On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 1:02 AM, HP wrote: Seems to me the people who should be screaming bloody murder are all the millions with watches and clocks that correct using the 60 kHz transmissions . Most of those millions probably know absolutely nothing about this . How do you reach them ? Hank K7HP _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband Topband Archives - Contesting Online Home<http://www.contesting.com/_topband> www.contesting.com Topband Mailing List Archives. Search String: [How to search] Display:. Description:. Sort: _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
That's a great suggestion, Paul. Very constructive. Assuming such a transfer from the federal government could be implemented, funding would be needed. So if the worst happens and these stations do indeed end up on the chopping block it might be a lot less an uphill battle to get hams and other incumbent users involved in a long term, sustainable funding scheme. I would personally support such an arrangement, within my limited means. It might take a lot of supporters to pull it off, but somehow I doubt that number would come *anywhere* near 100,000 individuals. Despite aspersions to the contrary, I *do* 'get it', and would sorely miss all those NIST services here. I guess some in our group fancy themselves mind readers? (grin) 73, David K3KY > Original Message > Subject: Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure > From: "Paul Christensen" > Date: Thu, August 23, 2018 12:02 pm > To: > > > >"The cost savings they are talking about amounts to very little. It would > >cost a helluva lot more to dismantle them completely. Besides TIME and > >freq standards, WWV provides for a myriad of other features." > > Seems like a great opportunity to spin-off WWV/WWVB to one of Colorado's > state universities; WWVH to a Hawaii university. Let a university run it as > a STEM project under the auspices of their dept. of physics or engineering. > Assign an advisor to help lead the students into worthwhile projects and > responsibilities. Here's an opportunity for academic professors to lead by > example, not just teach. It's not like it takes expensive, and largely > unmotivated federal workers with their long-term FERS/CSRS expenses to keep > the stations running. Moreover, it should be easier for a school to secure > private, external corporate funding and grants as needed, rather than through > a U.S. federal agency. In time, upgrade/expand the existing buildings for > other university STEM projects. Let the universities work with high schools > - and get high school students motivated to pursue STEM degrees. Give them > operating shifts, special construction projects, write code for remote > station monitoring, etc. > > My university had two student-run radio stations, run under the direction of > an academic advisor. Never in my life have I met a more motivated group of > people who worked for free. We couldn’t get enough if it. The experience we > received was priceless. > > Paul, W9AC > > > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
Seems to me that if they get to cut one program.. they will go after the next one with speed and alaricity. Nothing slows a money hungry bureaucrate, when on the trail of free money. and closing something they don't know about.. is free money to spend on a pet project they do know about. Have a great day, --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy "Actions speak louder than words" 1856 - Abraham Lincoln From: Topband on behalf of Don Kirk Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:10 AM To: HP Cc: topband Subject: Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure Hi Hank, The 60 kHz transmissions are done by WWVB. No mention of WWVB being impacted by the new budget proposal. Just FYI, and 73. Don (wd8dsb) On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 1:02 AM, HP wrote: > Seems to me the people who should be screaming bloody murder are all the > millions with watches and clocks > that correct using the 60 kHz transmissions . Most of those millions > probably know absolutely nothing about this . > How do you reach them ? > > Hank K7HP > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband Topband Archives - Contesting Online Home<http://www.contesting.com/_topband> www.contesting.com Topband Mailing List Archives. Search String: [How to search] Display:. Description:. Sort: > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
>"The cost savings they are talking about amounts to very little. It would >cost a helluva lot more to dismantle them completely. Besides TIME and freq >standards, WWV provides for a myriad of other features." Seems like a great opportunity to spin-off WWV/WWVB to one of Colorado's state universities; WWVH to a Hawaii university. Let a university run it as a STEM project under the auspices of their dept. of physics or engineering. Assign an advisor to help lead the students into worthwhile projects and responsibilities. Here's an opportunity for academic professors to lead by example, not just teach. It's not like it takes expensive, and largely unmotivated federal workers with their long-term FERS/CSRS expenses to keep the stations running. Moreover, it should be easier for a school to secure private, external corporate funding and grants as needed, rather than through a U.S. federal agency. In time, upgrade/expand the existing buildings for other university STEM projects. Let the universities work with high schools - and get high school students motivated to pursue STEM degrees. Give them operating shifts, special construction projects, write code for remote station monitoring, etc. My university had two student-run radio stations, run under the direction of an academic advisor. Never in my life have I met a more motivated group of people who worked for free. We couldn’t get enough if it. The experience we received was priceless. Paul, W9AC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
JM2C... I find WWV on 2.5 Mhz quite useful to verity the directivity of top band receiving antennas; VERY hand for quick troubleshooting... also, great fun seeing Luis, IV3PRK, QRV again, on FT 8.. 73 all, W5XZ, dan On Wednesday, August 22, 2018 10:55 AM, Jim Thomson wrote: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 03:17:57 + From: Charles Moizeau To: "k...@radioprism.com" , Topband Subject: Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure ## David does not ..get it. WWV et all is both a Time AND Freq station. I use the 20 mhz WWV to align the TCXOs in all 4 of my yaesu xcvrs. I would be dead in the water without them. BTW, if you do use WWV to align the TCXO in your xcvr, any brand, use the highest freq WWV that you can RX. I have used the 20 mhz WWV during the daytime even though it was weak, and had to use a 250 hz cw filter, the job can still be done correctly. If instead you use say the 2.5 mhz WWV.. vs the 20 mhz wwv, your error will be off by 8 X. IE: 1 hz off at 2.5 mhz = 8 hz off at 20 mhz. I can typ align the TCXO at 20 mhz wwv, within a fraction of one hz. I pre-program all the wwv freqs in the memory, cw mode, narrow filter etc, and leave the covers off. The xcvr has to be turned on for several hours before you can attempt to do the alignment. ## ANYBODY can sign the petition..from any country . I just signed it minutes ago. Who cares if they have your email address ? The cost savings they are talking about amounts to very little. It would cost a helluva lot more to dismantle them completely. Besides TIME and freq standards, WWV provides for a myriad of other features. Jim VE7RF David, Like you I support the petition. However, I will lend my name to it because I don't want to selfishly chicken out for all the valid reasons you note. Heck, it was only last week that Medicare, after many years, sent me a new card, proudly announcing how pleased they now are with the fact that cards do not need to show a social security number. Gosh, it took what, 50 years, for that revelation to occur to them! Yet, I'm still asked several times a month for my SSN, and stopped in my tracks if I don't give it. I agree with you in that I can't understand the prevailing rush to abandon one's privacy. It amazes me that almost 30 percent of this planet's population actively uses Facebook. I haven't the slightest intention of ever joining the braggarts, liars and narcissists in the playpens where they almost daily feed, feast and upchuck . However, my life has been worthily enriched by Google Earth, Google Translate, and yes, out of laziness, or as you might put it, carelessness, Google Search. I buy stuff from Amazon and use EZ-Pass on my car. I know I'm walking naked, but so is everyone else (and don't be so sure that you aren't as well). Take comfort, David, in the fact that naked or perhaps a bit less so, we're both smarter than most of the dolts and dopes out there who collect all our stuff. 73, Charles, W2SH. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
NIST budget is 750 million, the budget committee is increasing the years budget to them by 125 million, 100 anniversary celebration coming, I dont think there is any danger of them going off the air for some time. Some folks have commented on WWV's minuscule operating expense when compared to the total federal budget, but the problem with that thinking is we have thousands of federal programs and departmental budgets that also contribute just a tiny fraction to federal expense. Collectively, it adds up to a much larger figure. No matter what goes away, the impact is felt by someone. I've heard Fed. Gov't burns through $6 Mil. every minute (maybe it's every second). In the time it took to read this far, Bam another $6 million. Sure there are lots of dinky things the U.S. blows money on and if no one defends them then they go away if they're up for a defund. NIST is sending up a trial balloon maybe? Well, if there are enough tech. trogs using WWV and we make enough noise, maybe this dinky little program will get saved. Let them cut funding for some stupid study on why moss only grows in shade. Bam, there went another $6 million. Don't know about all of you but I have a hell of a lot of things to do besides mess around trying to set up my own rubidium doohicky because WWV went away. Bam there went another $6 million. 73 Rob K5UJ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
>Some folks have commented on WWV's >minuscule operating expense when compared to the total federal budget, but >the problem with that thinking is we have thousands of federal programs and >departmental budgets that also contribute just a tiny fraction to federal >expense. Collectively, it adds up to a much larger figure. No matter what >goes away, the impact is felt by someone. I've heard Fed. Gov't burns through $6 Mil. every minute (maybe it's every second). In the time it took to read this far, Bam another $6 million. Sure there are lots of dinky things the U.S. blows money on and if no one defends them then they go away if they're up for a defund. NIST is sending up a trial balloon maybe? Well, if there are enough tech. trogs using WWV and we make enough noise, maybe this dinky little program will get saved. Let them cut funding for some stupid study on why moss only grows in shade. Bam, there went another $6 million. Don't know about all of you but I have a hell of a lot of things to do besides mess around trying to set up my own rubidium doohicky because WWV went away. Bam there went another $6 million. 73 Rob K5UJ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
Hi Hank, This is an exact quote from page NIST 25 of the proposed FY2019 NIST budget: < www.osec.doc.gov/bmi/budget/FY19CBJ/NIST_and_NTIS_FY2019_President 's_Budget_for_508_comp.pdf> "NIST will discontinue the dissemination of the U.S. time and frequency via the NIST radio stations in Hawaii and Ft. Collins, CO. These radio stations transmit signals that are used to synchronize consumer electronic products like wall clocks, clock radios, and wristwatches, and may be used in other applications like appliances, cameras, and irrigation controllers." 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Don Kirk" To: "HP" Cc: "topband" Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 10:10:26 AM Subject: Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure Hi Hank, The 60 kHz transmissions are done by WWVB. No mention of WWVB being impacted by the new budget proposal. Just FYI, and 73. Don (wd8dsb) On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 1:02 AM, HP wrote: > Seems to me the people who should be screaming bloody murder are all the > millions with watches and clocks > that correct using the 60 kHz transmissions . Most of those millions > probably know absolutely nothing about this . > How do you reach them ? > > Hank K7HP > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 03:17:57 + From: Charles Moizeau To: "k...@radioprism.com" , Topband Subject: Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure ## David does not ..get it. WWV et all is both a Time AND Freq station.I use the 20 mhz WWV to align the TCXOs in all 4 of my yaesu xcvrs. I would be dead in the water without them. BTW, if you do use WWV to align the TCXO in your xcvr, any brand, use the highest freq WWV that you can RX. I have used the 20 mhz WWV during the daytime even though it was weak, and had to use a 250 hz cw filter, the job can still be done correctly.If instead you use say the 2.5 mhz WWV.. vs the 20 mhz wwv, your error will be off by 8 X. IE: 1 hz off at 2.5 mhz = 8 hz off at 20 mhz.I can typ align the TCXO at 20 mhz wwv, within a fraction of one hz.I pre-program all the wwv freqs in the memory, cw mode, narrow filter etc, and leave the covers off.The xcvr has to be turned on for several hours before you can attempt to do the alignment. ## ANYBODY can sign the petition..from any country . I just signed it minutes ago. Who cares if they have your email address ? The cost savings they are talking about amounts to very little. It would cost a helluva lot more to dismantle them completely. Besides TIME and freq standards, WWV provides for a myriad of other features. Jim VE7RF David, Like you I support the petition. However, I will lend my name to it because I don't want to selfishly chicken out for all the valid reasons you note. Heck, it was only last week that Medicare, after many years, sent me a new card, proudly announcing how pleased they now are with the fact that cards do not need to show a social security number. Gosh, it took what, 50 years, for that revelation to occur to them! Yet, I'm still asked several times a month for my SSN, and stopped in my tracks if I don't give it. I agree with you in that I can't understand the prevailing rush to abandon one's privacy. It amazes me that almost 30 percent of this planet's population actively uses Facebook. I haven't the slightest intention of ever joining the braggarts, liars and narcissists in the playpens where they almost daily feed, feast and upchuck . However, my life has been worthily enriched by Google Earth, Google Translate, and yes, out of laziness, or as you might put it, carelessness, Google Search. I buy stuff from Amazon and use EZ-Pass on my car. I know I'm walking naked, but so is everyone else (and don't be so sure that you aren't as well). Take comfort, David, in the fact that naked or perhaps a bit less so, we're both smarter than most of the dolts and dopes out there who collect all our stuff. 73, Charles, W2SH. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
"NIST will discontinue the dissemination of the U.S. time and frequency via the NIST radio stations in Hawaii and Ft. Collins, CO. These radio stations transmit signals that are used to synchronize consumer electronic products like wall clocks, clock radios, and wristwatches, and may be used in other applications like appliances, cameras, and irrigation controllers." These devices don't stop working just because they don't synchronize with the WWVB time signal. The internal quartz oscillators still function like any other quartz-based time-piece. The only impact is that they will not synchronize, typically in the middle of the night. Synchronization must then occur manually, like any other clock or wristwatch. Some enterprising individual with enough time on his/her hands could design a transverter that produces the identical 60 kHz time code from a GPSDO. My Trimble Thuderbolt provides date and time information that could be used in the translation to a 60 kHz time signal. The 60 kHz signal only needs to produce enough signal strength to synchronize the devices within a home or office. OTOH, to obtain adequate coverage would likely invoke an FCC limitation in the U.S.. But a subsequent PRM filed by a private party or by the FCC on its own motion could lift the power restriction if WWVB terminates operation. Paul, W9AC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
On 8/22/2018 3:10 AM, Don Kirk wrote: Hi Hank, The 60 kHz transmissions are done by WWVB. No mention of WWVB being impacted by the new budget proposal. Don (wd8dsb) This is an exact quote from page NIST-25 of the proposed FY2019 NIST budget: "NIST will discontinue the dissemination of the U.S. time and frequency via the NIST radio stations in Hawaii and Ft. Collins, CO. These radio stations transmit signals that are used to synchronize consumer electronic products like wall clocks, clock radios, and wristwatches, and may be used in other applications like appliances, cameras, and irrigation controllers." This clearly and specifically applies to WWVB, even if the call sign isn't mentioned. Rick N6RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
Hi Hank, The 60 kHz transmissions are done by WWVB. No mention of WWVB being impacted by the new budget proposal. Just FYI, and 73. Don (wd8dsb) On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 1:02 AM, HP wrote: > Seems to me the people who should be screaming bloody murder are all the > millions with watches and clocks > that correct using the 60 kHz transmissions . Most of those millions > probably know absolutely nothing about this . > How do you reach them ? > > Hank K7HP > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
Seems to me the people who should be screaming bloody murder are all the millions with watches and clocks that correct using the 60 kHz transmissions . Most of those millions probably know absolutely nothing about this . How do you reach them ? Hank K7HP _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
To me it's a no-brainer. We need to speak up. We have to let others know what is happening. I posted this to this list, it was first on the Elecraft list so I brought it to the attention to us on this list. Others if you care about what closing WWV means, should do the same or the message will not get spread and WWV may likely cease to be. I'm one of the oh so many whose SS# got stolen when the IRS got hacked. I will for evermore have a unique pin # sent to me by the IRS each year so I can submit for any refund. If who I am and my info is not safe with the IRS, then nobody is safe from having who and where they are, be known. Being real, if you have a ham license in the USA, the government knows who and where you are. Not acting is like being a pole turtle and that goes nowhere. 73, Gary KA1J > Let's just say that WWV has ceased broadcasting. Aside from > expensive solutions using GPS or buying our very own atomic clocks, > *how are we going to calibrate our transceivers and frequency > counters*? > > 73, Mike > www.w0btu.com > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
Thanks, Dave! 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 8:35 PM Dave Bowker wrote: > Mike, > > WWV/WWVH is a dying/dead 20th century service. > > I've had my HP lab equipment (freq counter(s), sig gen(s), spectrum > analyzer/tracking gen, etc.) *[and my TT OMNI VI+ xcvr]* locked to a GPS > freq/time base for more than 20 yrs .. all based on a Collins Radio > "Jupiter" GPS rx module and about $20 of home brew PC board and VCXO > components in a GPS disciplined time/freq base; total cost less than $80 > 20+ yrs ago! > > Real-time GPS synced time/freq based ref. has major advantages of > eliminating the multi-path signal propagation/phase/time delay effects and > interference effects of WWv/WWVH when a precise freq/phase/time ref. > standard is required. > > 73, Dave, K1FK > Fort Kent, MW > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
I fully agree, Don! But that's not what I was asking, sir. *Are there other existing alternatives? *What about CHU? 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 8:40 PM Don Kirk wrote: > And what do you compare your fancy GPSDO or rubidium reference standard to > in order to make sure they have not encountered a major failure? I > personally think the frequency reference standard WWV provides which is > directly traceable back to NIST is much more valuable than the other info > it provides. I encourage everyone to sign the online petition regarding > WWV. > > 73, > Don Kirk wd8dsb > > On Tuesday, August 21, 2018, Mike Waters wrote: > >> Let's just say that WWV has ceased broadcasting. Aside from expensive >> solutions using GPS or buying our very own atomic clocks, *how are we >> going >> to calibrate our transceivers and frequency counters*? >> > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
> And what do you compare your fancy GPSDO or rubidium reference standard to in order to make sure they have not encountered a major > failure? Several options: (1) CHU is still operating on several HF frequencies that reasonably cover North America; (2) In the U.S., AM broadcast stations are required to maintain +/- 20 Hz carrier stability (73.1545). However, nearly all modern BC transmitters can easily meet 2 Hz, and some are now phase-locked to a precision standard. Most modern amateur gear covers the MW band. One could sample several AMBC stations, throw out the outliers, then calculate a geometric mean and attain a very accurate reference. Incidentally, some legacy ham-band-only gear never did cover WWV -- or if it did, it was received by a different band mixing scheme, then a pre-selector is peaked for resonance. I wouldn't like to see the disappearance of WWV/WWVH but it would be for the wrong reasons, mostly nostalgic. Some folks have commented on WWV's minuscule operating expense when compared to the total federal budget, but the problem with that thinking is we have thousands of federal programs and departmental budgets that also contribute just a tiny fraction to federal expense. Collectively, it adds up to a much larger figure. No matter what goes away, the impact is felt by someone. On the other hand, if WWVB remains due to the large number consumers who depend on it for wall clocks and wristwatches -- and if a minimal staff and infrastructure is required anyway, then perhaps an argument can be made for the retention of WWV. In the shack, I use a GPSDO with a distribution amp that locks several transceivers and some test equipment. A surplus $100 USD rubidium standard is Velcro-strapped to my HP frequency counter. It comes up to temperature and locks within 5 minutes of powering. The accuracy of both devices far exceeds my needs. Paul, W9AC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
I sold my GPS time base and replaced itbwith a $75 surplus rubidium standard I bought on eBay. They're smaller than a paperback book. I had to add a power supply and enclosure, but it works great, outputs a stabilized 10MZhz output. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 21, 2018, at 8:40 PM, Don Kirk wrote: > > And what do you compare your fancy GPSDO or rubidium reference standard to > in order to make sure they have not encountered a major failure? I > personally think the frequency reference standard WWV provides which is > directly traceable back to NIST is much more valuable than the other info > it provides. I encourage everyone to sign the online petition regarding > WWV. > > 73, > Don Kirk wd8dsb > >> On Tuesday, August 21, 2018, Mike Waters wrote: >> >> Let's just say that WWV has ceased broadcasting. Aside from expensive >> solutions using GPS or buying our very own atomic clocks, *how are we going >> to calibrate our transceivers and frequency counters*? >> >> 73, Mike >> www.w0btu.com >> _ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
And what do you compare your fancy GPSDO or rubidium reference standard to in order to make sure they have not encountered a major failure? I personally think the frequency reference standard WWV provides which is directly traceable back to NIST is much more valuable than the other info it provides. I encourage everyone to sign the online petition regarding WWV. 73, Don Kirk wd8dsb On Tuesday, August 21, 2018, Mike Waters wrote: > Let's just say that WWV has ceased broadcasting. Aside from expensive > solutions using GPS or buying our very own atomic clocks, *how are we going > to calibrate our transceivers and frequency counters*? > > 73, Mike > www.w0btu.com > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
Let's just say that WWV has ceased broadcasting. Aside from expensive solutions using GPS or buying our very own atomic clocks, *how are we going to calibrate our transceivers and frequency counters*? 73, Mike www.w0btu.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
Anyone who doesn't want WWV and its sister stations to close down needs to SPEAK UP NOW. Sometimes bureaucrats and politicians faced with demands to shrink their budgets propose things for elimination precisely because they know there's a constituency that will complain loudly and then the closure won't happen (like when a city official proposes to close a firehouse). Whether that's the case here or not, we need to show that there is a constituency for WWV and we do care. Otherwise, how will they know and what will they assume? Uphill struggle? Perhaps. But so is working 200 countries on topband from a suburban lot, and lots of people on this list are up for that. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 19, 2018, at 21:23, wrote: > > Oooh- here's the deal with that- Although I totally agree with the > intent of the petition, and would otherwise add my name to it, > I have several problems with this: > > Please note, I DO NOT intend to stir up any political discussion > here! > > (1.) 100,000 valid entries is indeed a massively uphill battle > for an amateur fraternity numbering only around 700,000 or so for > the entire US. What with rampant apathy and deep divisions in the > country, I believe this may not be an attainable goal. Too bad. > I would very much miss WWV and WWVH. I think they may well get > the axe anyway. Too many promises have been made to the un-needy/ > undeserving... and the country is hemorrhaging money anyway. > > (2.) I have always felt *very* exposed in terms of privacy. Up > to now I have studiously avoided all lemming-like enterprises > such as Facebook, Google, Pay Pal, Twitter, et al... OK call me a > Luddite. I prefer, ahem, 'slow adopter'. And I am sooo glad > today I'm not being exploited very much by such firms. Also I do > anonomized searches (Startpage, DuckDuckGo, etc.) I have always > been reluctant to give up any personal information to anyone > unless absolutely necessary, i.e. for Social Security etc. > How much less likely am I to want to get on a White House list > or any other similar thing considering *today's* chilling, > poisoned environment? Sorry, guys, I'll sit this one out. > > (3.) Even in the unlikely event the 100,000 milestone is > actually achieved, what guarantee is there it wouldn't just fall > on deaf ears? I strongly suspect the Executive Branch agenda > isn't much congruent with the actual needs and wants of the > majority- and that seems to be the case most of the time > regardless of which party is in ascendancy... > > 73, David K3KY > > > > > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
David, Like you I support the petition. However, I will lend my name to it because I don't want to selfishly chicken out for all the valid reasons you note. Heck, it was only last week that Medicare, after many years, sent me a new card, proudly announcing how pleased they now are with the fact that cards do not need to show a social security number. Gosh, it took what, 50 years, for that revelation to occur to them! Yet, I'm still asked several times a month for my SSN, and stopped in my tracks if I don't give it. I agree with you in that I can't understand the prevailing rush to abandon one's privacy. It amazes me that almost 30 percent of this planet's population actively uses Facebook. I haven't the slightest intention of ever joining the braggarts, liars and narcissists in the playpens where they almost daily feed, feast and upchuck . However, my life has been worthily enriched by Google Earth, Google Translate, and yes, out of laziness, or as you might put it, carelessness, Google Search. I buy stuff from Amazon and use EZ-Pass on my car. I know I'm walking naked, but so is everyone else (and don't be so sure that you aren't as well). Take comfort, David, in the fact that naked or perhaps a bit less so, we're both smarter than most of the dolts and dopes out there who collect all our stuff. 73, Charles, W2SH. From: Topband on behalf of k...@radioprism.com Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2018 9:23 PM To: Topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure Oooh- here's the deal with that- Although I totally agree with the intent of the petition, and would otherwise add my name to it, I have several problems with this: Please note, I DO NOT intend to stir up any political discussion here! (1.) 100,000 valid entries is indeed a massively uphill battle for an amateur fraternity numbering only around 700,000 or so for the entire US. What with rampant apathy and deep divisions in the country, I believe this may not be an attainable goal. Too bad. I would very much miss WWV and WWVH. I think they may well get the axe anyway. Too many promises have been made to the un-needy/ undeserving... and the country is hemorrhaging money anyway. (2.) I have always felt *very* exposed in terms of privacy. Up to now I have studiously avoided all lemming-like enterprises such as Facebook, Google, Pay Pal, Twitter, et al... OK call me a Luddite. I prefer, ahem, 'slow adopter'. And I am sooo glad today I'm not being exploited very much by such firms. Also I do anonomized searches (Startpage, DuckDuckGo, etc.) I have always been reluctant to give up any personal information to anyone unless absolutely necessary, i.e. for Social Security etc. How much less likely am I to want to get on a White House list or any other similar thing considering *today's* chilling, poisoned environment? Sorry, guys, I'll sit this one out. (3.) Even in the unlikely event the 100,000 milestone is actually achieved, what guarantee is there it wouldn't just fall on deaf ears? I strongly suspect the Executive Branch agenda isn't much congruent with the actual needs and wants of the majority- and that seems to be the case most of the time regardless of which party is in ascendancy... 73, David K3KY _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband Topband Archives - Contesting Online Home<http://www.contesting.com/_topband> www.contesting.com Topband Mailing List Archives. Search String: [How to search] Display:. Description:. Sort: _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
Oooh- here's the deal with that- Although I totally agree with the intent of the petition, and would otherwise add my name to it, I have several problems with this: Please note, I DO NOT intend to stir up any political discussion here! (1.) 100,000 valid entries is indeed a massively uphill battle for an amateur fraternity numbering only around 700,000 or so for the entire US. What with rampant apathy and deep divisions in the country, I believe this may not be an attainable goal. Too bad. I would very much miss WWV and WWVH. I think they may well get the axe anyway. Too many promises have been made to the un-needy/ undeserving... and the country is hemorrhaging money anyway. (2.) I have always felt *very* exposed in terms of privacy. Up to now I have studiously avoided all lemming-like enterprises such as Facebook, Google, Pay Pal, Twitter, et al... OK call me a Luddite. I prefer, ahem, 'slow adopter'. And I am sooo glad today I'm not being exploited very much by such firms. Also I do anonomized searches (Startpage, DuckDuckGo, etc.) I have always been reluctant to give up any personal information to anyone unless absolutely necessary, i.e. for Social Security etc. How much less likely am I to want to get on a White House list or any other similar thing considering *today's* chilling, poisoned environment? Sorry, guys, I'll sit this one out. (3.) Even in the unlikely event the 100,000 milestone is actually achieved, what guarantee is there it wouldn't just fall on deaf ears? I strongly suspect the Executive Branch agenda isn't much congruent with the actual needs and wants of the majority- and that seems to be the case most of the time regardless of which party is in ascendancy... 73, David K3KY _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: OT - US Hams, WWV closure
Apparently in a cost saving measure WWV is/may well be on the chopping block. I'm pasting a message below with the details. I added the tinyurl link for those who don't like copying and pasting an entire link. I signed the online white house petition. 73, Gary KA1J ---Start of paste--- This may not be the appropriate place for this but need to have amateur radio ops read this as many rely on the "time standards" for our radios. "NIST station WWV and sister stations are among the oldest radio stations in the United States, having been in continuous operation since May 1920. The station has transmitted the official US Time for nearly 100 years, and is an instrumental part in the telecommunications field, ranging from broadcasting to scientific research and education. Additionally, these stations transmit marine storm warnings from the National Weather Service, GPS satellite health reports, and specific information concerning current solar activity, and radio propagation conditions. These broadcasts are an essential resource to the worldwide communications industry. This petition requests continued funding of these stations be maintained into the 21st century and beyond to ensure future operations." They need 100K signatures by 15Sep2018...gonna be tough ! Here is a link to the petition if you wish to sign it: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/ maintain-funding-nist-stations-wwv-wwvh end of paste--- This is a tinyurl link to the above whitehouse address: https://tinyurl.com/y9db9vs6 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
