Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Jim Brown]

FYI,

This was posted yesterday by K1JT to the WSJT email reflector.

73, Jim K9YC

Everyone paying attention should already know what's contained in this 
message -- but it's clear that some do not.


The current General Availability (GA) release of WSJT-X is v1.8.0.  That 
program version does not include FT8 DXpedition Mode.


We have made beta-level "release candidates" available for the explicit 
purpose of testing FT8 DXpedition Mode.  The release candidates have 
included cautionary warnings to the effect that in its present form, 
DXpedition Mode should be used only for controlled testing.


A few operators or groups have ignored our warnings and tried to use FT8 
DXpedition Mode in true pileup situations.  The consequences are 
predictably bad -- especially when the offending operator(s) have chosen 
their frequencies badly and other operators are using a mix of program 
versions including v1.8.0, v1.9.0-rc2, v1.9.0-rc3, some version of JTDX.


FT8 DXpedition Mode is not yet ready for “production” use. Until WSJT-X 
v1.9.0 is fully released -- not a beta-level "release candidate", but a 
full General Availability release -- DXpedition Mode should be used only 
in controlled test situations.


The next public test of FT8 DXpedition Mode conducted by the WSJT 
Development Group will be conducted on April 7, a little over a week 
from now.  You are cordially invited to join us for this test.  See the 
announcement posted here yesterday (Subject: WSJT-X v1.9.0-rc3: Testing 
of FT8 DXpedition Mode) for details.


-- 73, Joe, K1JT

-- 


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wsjt-de...@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-develOn 3/30/2018 4:50 
AM, k1zm--- via Topband wrote:

Hello Gang
I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but I may 
be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right before our 
eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible implications going 
forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on.
  
I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI.  Norbert DJ7JC has been a real trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so - so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert.  Norbert has managed to make quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very much appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!
  
So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.
  
On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and me here at VY2ZM.  Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have been another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in there calling among the NA stations.
  
About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but QRNN on his side prevented a legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I know he did not copy my callsign correctly - and later he even said so over ON4KST noting "I heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU qso's on Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up."
  
The next night Norbert came on ON4KST  chat and announced that he was going to try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials following its release by K1JT.  I am told that the dx'pedition version of FT8 will also be used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition.
  
Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise when and if it ever is fully conceived including:
  
1) A shortened qso sequence using only 2 of the traditional FT8 required QSO elements

2) The promise of simultaneous qso's between Multiple HOUNDS and the FOX (in 
this example the FOX was 7Q7EI)
3) The potential, as a result, of up to 300-400 qso's per hour may be possible 
one day - which would improve the overall qso totals of any dx'pedition - IF 
this ever becomes REALITY.
  
So on night two Norbert came up on FT8 dx'pedition mode - first on 80m and I managed to work him fairly quickly here at VY2ZM.
  
Others worked him as well - as we all struggled to learn exactly how to operate this new flavor of FT8.  It is a bit tricky and I invite anyone reading this who may be interested to take a look - because Dx'pedition mode uses special settings within WSJT-x - and one must configure things exactly right - or it just does not function as one might expect traditional FT8 to function in order to complete qso's.
  
Nearer to his SR, Norbert went to 1836 and I think he may have worked 

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Roger D Johnson]

I'm an Old Timer. I'll be 76 next month and have 299 confirmed on 160m.
My goal is to join the magic 300 club. If that happens, and the digital
modes become the modes of choice, I think I'll retire and devote more time
to my other hobbies. The "my computer talked to your computer" QSOs have
absolutely no appeal for me.

73, Roger


On 3/30/2018 7:50 AM, k1zm--- via Topband wrote:

Hello Gang
I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but I may 
be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right before our 
eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible implications going 
forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on.
  
I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI.  Norbert DJ7JC has been a real trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so - so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert.  Norbert has managed to make quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very much appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!
  
So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.
  
On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and me here at VY2ZM.  Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have been another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in there calling among the NA stations.
  
About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but QRNN on his side prevented a legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I know he did not copy my callsign correctly - and later he even said so over ON4KST noting "I heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU qso's on Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up."
  
The next night Norbert came on ON4KST  chat and announced that he was going to try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials following its release by K1JT.  I am told that the dx'pedition version of FT8 will also be used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition.
  
Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise when and if it ever is fully conceived including:
  
1) A shortened qso sequence using only 2 of the traditional FT8 required QSO elements

2) The promise of simultaneous qso's between Multiple HOUNDS and the FOX (in 
this example the FOX was 7Q7EI)
3) The potential, as a result, of up to 300-400 qso's per hour may be possible 
one day - which would improve the overall qso totals of any dx'pedition - IF 
this ever becomes REALITY.
  
So on night two Norbert came up on FT8 dx'pedition mode - first on 80m and I managed to work him fairly quickly here at VY2ZM.
  
Others worked him as well - as we all struggled to learn exactly how to operate this new flavor of FT8.  It is a bit tricky and I invite anyone reading this who may be interested to take a look - because Dx'pedition mode uses special settings within WSJT-x - and one must configure things exactly right - or it just does not function as one might expect traditional FT8 to function in order to complete qso's.
  
Nearer to his SR, Norbert went to 1836 and I think he may have worked a couple of NA stations - I tried but without success because I did not pay close enough attention to ON4KST - and I came to 160m too late in the game to have a good shot as he went into daylight on his side.
  
So what is going on here exactly?  And why did I choose to make this post to Topband?
  
The answer is fairly simple and stems from what I observed this past summer on 6M during the Sporadic E season.  I happen to like to work 6M E during the summer and was all set around the end of June for what I hoped would be a great E season on 6M CW into Europe.  I worked a couple of stations on CW in late June but during the first or second week of July, K1JT released the production version of FT8 and almost immediately everyone realized its potential (particularly those in the Mid and Far Western USA) - where it was immediately called a "GAME CHANGER" by K7JA and others on the Left Coast.



Well - it SURELY WAS A GAME CHANGER - because I did not hear a single CW DX 
station out of Europe on 6M for the rest of the summer E season after that - 
everyone had qsy'ed to 50.313 to work FT8 - because it WORKED so well on 6M - 
even on E skip paths.  And since I did not have FT8 capability - I was TOTALLY 
SHUT OUT and had NO 6M E season of Dx'ing - BUMMER!


So how does this apply to Topband?  Pls read on.


Last night was NIGHT 3 into NA on the lowbands from 7Q7EI - and Norbert was 
back - first on 160m on 1836 from about 0130z - until around 0320z - again on 
FT8 - in dx'pedition mode.  By now, most of us had downloaded the dx'pedition 
mode version of WSJT-x and had sort 

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Patrick Parmentier]

Happy Easter all,  and what abt WAZ 160m ? 73 Pat on7pq . 

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] Namens Hans Hjelmström
Verzonden: zondag 1 april 2018 09:36
Aan: Peter Sundberg
CC: k...@aol.com; topband@contesting.com
Onderwerp: Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is
Upon us!

Good morning all

As it probably can not be stopped. The ONLY way seems that ARRL acts, and
NOT accept these modes ( unhearing modes)  for todays dxcc. If they make a
separate dxcc for these modes, anyone that prefer these kind of QSO can
use these for that NEW dxcc. And it will not impact ,,,todays dxcc.

And all others can continue with the challenge and work new ones , by the
help
of improved antennas , operating skills   aso  aso

BUT as I understand ( wrong or not ) they ( arrl ) are not interested to
act.

Have a fine Eastern .

Hans SM6CVX

> 1 apr 2018 kl. 09:16 skrev Peter Sundberg :
> 
> For those who have not yet seen how the future of 160m band harvesting 
> - not DX'ing -  will be done, check this video out
> 
> h
> ttp://ae5x.blogspot.se/2018/01/video-fully-automated-ft8-qsos.html
> 
> Apparently SV5DKL made 13.000 QSO's on the bands in a few months, totally
without operator intervention. I bet many hams were happy to put SV5 as a
new DXCC in their log, Isn't it wonderful that his computer was so helpful
with that while the operator was busy with other things.
> 
> As for the legal aspects of unattended operation of a ham radio station -
who will be able to tell if the operator is there or not as it is fully
automatic anyway..
> 
> In the near future - if we embrace this way of operating -   for Wednesday
activity nights on 160m we just let our computer do the work and check in
the morning how many contacts that were made and how many that are already
credited via LotW. Simple as that.
> 
> In contrast to this digital automation it was very interesting to read 
> Jeff K1ZM's report from the Spratly expedition on how the experienced 
> and highly skilled crew put in a BIG effort to make real radio 
> contacts. Way to go!  And I am glad that they did not leave an FT8 
> robot station behind, neatly tucked away in a corner of the conference 
> room.. :-)
> 
> I do not want to take part in this modern Internet driven computer game.
If people would disconnect their FT8 computers from the report services on
the net there would be a lot less amazing contacts in the noise as the "a
priori" advantage is lost. Then it would be more apparent what the radio
channel is actually providing for them.
> 
> I think that the statement from Ken K4ZW in his recent posting is very
appropriate:
> 
> "For those who think guys like me are dinosaurs, I would kindly suggest
you don't understand what motives us. 73 Ken K4ZW"
> 
> We can't change/stop this new lazy way of automatic band harvesting. Many
will even make huge amounts of money on the new way of operating.
> 
> But we can still do it the old fashion way, as it pleases us to make radio
contacts. Therefore I will continue to populate the 160m band with my CW
signal until there are no more stations to work.
> 
> 
> 73
> Peter SM2CEW
> 
> 
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Hans Hjelmström]

Good morning all

As it probably can not be stopped. The ONLY way seems that ARRL acts, and
NOT accept these modes ( unhearing modes)  for todays dxcc. If they make a
separate dxcc for these modes, anyone that prefer these kind of QSO can 
use these for that NEW dxcc. And it will not impact ,,,todays dxcc.

And all others can continue with the challenge and work new ones , by the help
of improved antennas , operating skills   aso  aso

BUT as I understand ( wrong or not ) they ( arrl ) are not interested to act.

Have a fine Eastern .

Hans SM6CVX

> 1 apr 2018 kl. 09:16 skrev Peter Sundberg :
> 
> For those who have not yet seen how the future of 160m band harvesting - not 
> DX'ing -  will be done, check this video out
> 
> http://ae5x.blogspot.se/2018/01/video-fully-automated-ft8-qsos.html
>  
> 
> Apparently SV5DKL made 13.000 QSO's on the bands in a few months, totally 
> without operator intervention. I bet many hams were happy to put SV5 as a new 
> DXCC in their log, Isn't it wonderful that his computer was so helpful with 
> that while the operator was busy with other things.
> 
> As for the legal aspects of unattended operation of a ham radio station - who 
> will be able to tell if the operator is there or not as it is fully automatic 
> anyway..
> 
> In the near future - if we embrace this way of operating -   for Wednesday 
> activity nights on 160m we just let our computer do the work and check in the 
> morning how many contacts that were made and how many that are already 
> credited via LotW. Simple as that.
> 
> In contrast to this digital automation it was very interesting to read Jeff 
> K1ZM's report from the Spratly expedition on how the experienced and highly 
> skilled crew put in a BIG effort to make real radio contacts. Way to go!  And 
> I am glad that they did not leave an FT8 robot station behind, neatly tucked 
> away in a corner of the conference room.. :-)
> 
> I do not want to take part in this modern Internet driven computer game. If 
> people would disconnect their FT8 computers from the report services on the 
> net there would be a lot less amazing contacts in the noise as the "a priori" 
> advantage is lost. Then it would be more apparent what the radio channel is 
> actually providing for them.
> 
> I think that the statement from Ken K4ZW in his recent posting is very 
> appropriate:
> 
> "For those who think guys like me are dinosaurs, I would kindly suggest you 
> don't understand what motives us. 73 Ken K4ZW"
> 
> We can't change/stop this new lazy way of automatic band harvesting. Many 
> will even make huge amounts of money on the new way of operating.
> 
> But we can still do it the old fashion way, as it pleases us to make radio 
> contacts. Therefore I will continue to populate the 160m band with my CW 
> signal until there are no more stations to work.
> 
> 
> 73
> Peter SM2CEW
> 
> 
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Peter Sundberg]

For those who have not yet seen how the future of 160m band 
harvesting - not DX'ing -  will be done, check this video out


http://ae5x.blogspot.se/2018/01/video-fully-automated-ft8-qsos.html 



Apparently SV5DKL made 13.000 QSO's on the bands in a few months, 
totally without operator intervention. I bet many hams were happy to 
put SV5 as a new DXCC in their log, Isn't it wonderful that his 
computer was so helpful with that while the operator was busy with 
other things.


As for the legal aspects of unattended operation of a ham radio 
station - who will be able to tell if the operator is there or not as 
it is fully automatic anyway..


In the near future - if we embrace this way of operating -   for 
Wednesday activity nights on 160m we just let our computer do the 
work and check in the morning how many contacts that were made and 
how many that are already credited via LotW. Simple as that.


In contrast to this digital automation it was very interesting to 
read Jeff K1ZM's report from the Spratly expedition on how the 
experienced and highly skilled crew put in a BIG effort to make real 
radio contacts. Way to go!  And I am glad that they did not leave an 
FT8 robot station behind, neatly tucked away in a corner of the 
conference room.. :-)


I do not want to take part in this modern Internet driven computer 
game. If people would disconnect their FT8 computers from the report 
services on the net there would be a lot less amazing contacts in the 
noise as the "a priori" advantage is lost. Then it would be more 
apparent what the radio channel is actually providing for them.


I think that the statement from Ken K4ZW in his recent posting is 
very appropriate:


"For those who think guys like me are dinosaurs, I would kindly 
suggest you don't understand what motives us. 73 Ken K4ZW"


We can't change/stop this new lazy way of automatic band harvesting. 
Many will even make huge amounts of money on the new way of operating.


But we can still do it the old fashion way, as it pleases us to make 
radio contacts. Therefore I will continue to populate the 160m band 
with my CW signal until there are no more stations to work.



73
Peter SM2CEW


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Wes Stewart]

Sounds like SNOTEL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNOTEL

In 1976, the ARRL SW Division convention was held here in Tucson. The local club 
sponsor hadn't done anything toward serious VHF programs, so Steve, then W7RUC, 
now W7CI, and yours truly, arranged a VHF breakfast meeting at the convention 
hotel.  At personal expense we sent letters to all of the Tropo/MS/EME guys we 
could think of inviting them to the breakfast.  For speakers, we got Mike, 
K6MYC, to talk about antenna design and another guy, whose, to my regret, name 
escapes me, to speak about MS propagation.  His talk was about his company's 
involvement in a similar (if not the same) program. He had tons of data on 
meteor bursts, most of them shorter that we used on CW and SSB at the time.


Wes  N7WS

ps. Reportedly, our meeting was the hit of the convention.

On 3/31/2018 10:40 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:

This is an interesting discussion related to FT8.

In 1973 (a whole 45 years ago!) when I worked for Boeing Electronic Products 
in Seattle, they had a commericial (not ham radio) meteor
scatter station.  An ASR-33 at the master station in Seattle would send what 
amounted to "CQ" to a system of slave receivers connected to rain gauge 
sensors (they do get a bit of rain in Seattle :-) around the Pacific 
Northwest.  If a particular rain gauge sensor picked up pings from meteor 
trials, it would immediately transmit its data back,
presumably while the trial was still hot.  If the trail went cold, the slave 
would get another chance the next time a meteor came. So this ASR-33 would 
just print data as it came in at random times.  There may have been a DEC 
PDP-11 involved (there were no microprocessors at the time unless you count 
pocket calculators, and the HP35 wasn't

programmable).

I don't know much FT8, but this legacy system sounds a lot like
FT8.  Automatic QSO'ing, like the floating FT8 station out of
Hawaii.  Waiting for the teletype to fire up every few minutes
while it earned "worked all rain gauges" was more like watching paint dry than 
having "fun".  They did need to have an "operator" at the master station to 
change the paper in the teletype once in a while.


Rick N6RK 


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Ken Claerbout]

Seems like this is a matter of personal preference, where our
individual interest lies, and what motivates us to operate.

Some of you may know my attempts to activate XW on the lowbands these
past few years.  My success on Topband to the US, most difficult path,
has been limited at best.  It seems this would be an opportunity ripe
for use of FT8.  Personally, I have ZERO interest in doing so.  I’d
rather stay home or, drink beer with the guys at night than do that.
Just my personal preference.  Nothing wrong with those who would do it
different.  Same with RHR.  I’ve seen it used to overcome propagation
challenges that someone has from their home QTH.  I don’t think much
of it, I don’t understand the satisfaction, but I recognize it’s
allowed for DXCC and people still feel good about working someone that
way.  Your prerogative.

I got involved in lowbands around the age of 17 because I loved the
challenge.  That and competing with my peers, through continuous home
station improvements has kept me engaged in this for almost 40 years.

This is a game changer, and you can be sure more, with greater impact,
are on the way.  If it keeps people active in our beloved hobby,
that’s a good thing!  For those who think guys like me are dinosaurs,
I would kindly suggest you don’t understand what motives us.

73
Ken K4ZW
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

This is an interesting discussion related to FT8.

In 1973 (a whole 45 years ago!) when I worked for Boeing Electronic 
Products in Seattle, they had a commericial (not ham radio) meteor
scatter station.  An ASR-33 at the master station in Seattle would send 
what amounted to "CQ" to a system of slave receivers connected to rain 
gauge sensors (they do get a bit of rain in Seattle :-) around the 
Pacific Northwest.  If a particular rain gauge sensor picked up pings 
from meteor trials, it would immediately transmit its data back,
presumably while the trial was still hot.  If the trail went cold, the 
slave would get another chance the next time a meteor came.  So this 
ASR-33 would just print data as it came in at random times.  There may 
have been a DEC PDP-11 involved (there were no microprocessors at the 
time unless you count pocket calculators, and the HP35 wasn't

programmable).

I don't know much FT8, but this legacy system sounds a lot like
FT8.  Automatic QSO'ing, like the floating FT8 station out of
Hawaii.  Waiting for the teletype to fire up every few minutes
while it earned "worked all rain gauges" was more like watching paint 
dry than having "fun".  They did need to have an "operator" at the 
master station to change the paper in the teletype once in a while.


Rick N6RK

On 3/31/2018 9:09 AM, Grant Saviers wrote:
Yep, automatic TTY networks go back a lot more than 50 years. Certainly 
with the Model 19 in the 1940s and probably before that.


The ASR-33 and its "stunt box" are a true marvel of low cost mechanical 
engineering.  Send WRU, asking "who are you?"  And the automatic answer 
back - "HERE IS" a character stream (older TTYs in baudot, USASCII for 
ASR33) sent in response from a broken off tabs on a drum, up to 20 
characters (more than FT8 - hi).  Plus the A is ASR means a remote TTY 
(later a computer) on the TTY network  could command the paper tape in 
the reader to be sent without any humans around.  Or an electrical 
switch could be triggered - like to turn on your amp.


The ASR33 wasn't the first TTY to offer such capability, the Model 28 
and many before it enabled very large TTY networks to operate unattended 
at the remotes.  I worked on the computer end of one as a summer job in 
the 1960's.  A lot of those "telephone" lines leased for TTY use were DC 
circuits end to end and could have surprisingly high voltages present to 
overcome the line resistance.


https://www.smecc.org/teleprinters/28stuntbox001.pdf

Another example besides punched cards where mechanical widgets performed 
pretty complex tasks we have forgotten or now think were invented with 
computers.


A fun place to see such stuff in Seattle 
http://www.museumofcommunications.org/    Plus Paul Allen's Living 
Computer Museum http://www.livingcomputers.org/  (older computers 
restored and working)


And the best computer museum is in MountainView CA   The Computer 
History Museum   computerhistory.org  Main exhibit "Revolution, the 
First 2000 Years of Computing"


Grant KZ1W



On 3/30/2018 17:15 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:



When was the last time a mechanical RTTY machine responded back
without it's human pushing the green keys?

Mechanical RTTY machines have had answerback (WRU) capability for more
than 50 years:
 

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/30/2018 2:21 PM, Anthony Scandurra wrote:
"Maybe someday there will be unmanned solar-powered stations on 
remote DX

entities."

This was actually proposed at the 2017 IDXC in Visalia by a 
well-known and
prolific DXpeditioner.  I was the only person in the room who stood 
up with
a dissenting opinion about it.  However, I did have several people 
come up

to me after the presentation was over to tell me they agreed with me.

Reducing the human element ruins the accomplishment, in my opinion.  I
think many others agree with that sentiment.

I am all for technological advancement, but, for instance, when SSB
supplanted AM, the human element was not reduced.

Digital mode proponents will say that there is still a human element 
to the

process (despite what some naysayers have proclaimed), and I agree.
However, the REDUCTION of the human element reduces the FUN part of it.
One can argue that you cannot copy RTTY without electronic means, 
either.
That does not fully compare with how the JT modes work. The JT modes, 
more

than any others, reduce the human's role in the QSO.  When was the last
time a mechanical RTTY machine responded back without it's human pushing
the green keys?

73, Tony K4QE

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 1:51 PM, Brian Pease 
wrote:


When 90% of band activity is taking place in ~1% of the available
bandwidth, it gets one's attention, doesn't it.
Personally, I have always considered DXpedition, and especially 
contest,
CW exchanges to be a bit silly, with nearly everyone getting a 5NN 
signal

report.  With today's technology I think eventually a computer will be
able  

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Anthony Scandurra]

I stand corrected.  Thank you, Joe and Grant, for the RTTY history lesson.

I hope my point about the reduction of the human element was not lost
despite its faulty premise with regard to RTTY.

73, Tony K4QE

On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 12:09 PM, Grant Saviers  wrote:

> Yep, automatic TTY networks go back a lot more than 50 years. Certainly
> with the Model 19 in the 1940s and probably before that.
>
> The ASR-33 and its "stunt box" are a true marvel of low cost mechanical
> engineering.  Send WRU, asking "who are you?"  And the automatic answer
> back - "HERE IS" a character stream (older TTYs in baudot, USASCII for
> ASR33) sent in response from a broken off tabs on a drum, up to 20
> characters (more than FT8 - hi).  Plus the A is ASR means a remote TTY
> (later a computer) on the TTY network  could command the paper tape in the
> reader to be sent without any humans around.  Or an electrical switch could
> be triggered - like to turn on your amp.
>
> The ASR33 wasn't the first TTY to offer such capability, the Model 28 and
> many before it enabled very large TTY networks to operate unattended at the
> remotes.  I worked on the computer end of one as a summer job in the
> 1960's.  A lot of those "telephone" lines leased for TTY use were DC
> circuits end to end and could have surprisingly high voltages present to
> overcome the line resistance.
>
> https://www.smecc.org/teleprinters/28stuntbox001.pdf
>
> Another example besides punched cards where mechanical widgets performed
> pretty complex tasks we have forgotten or now think were invented with
> computers.
>
> A fun place to see such stuff in Seattle http://www.museumofcommunicati
> ons.org/Plus Paul Allen's Living Computer Museum
> http://www.livingcomputers.org/  (older computers restored and working)
>
> And the best computer museum is in MountainView CA   The Computer History
> Museum   computerhistory.org  Main exhibit "Revolution, the First 2000
> Years of Computing"
>
> Grant KZ1W
>
>
>
> On 3/30/2018 17:15 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
>>
>> When was the last time a mechanical RTTY machine responded back
>>> without it's human pushing the green keys?
>>>
>> Mechanical RTTY machines have had answerback (WRU) capability for more
>> than 50 years:
>>  
>>
>> 73,
>>
>>... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>> On 3/30/2018 2:21 PM, Anthony Scandurra wrote:
>>
>>> "Maybe someday there will be unmanned solar-powered stations on remote DX
>>> entities."
>>>
>>> This was actually proposed at the 2017 IDXC in Visalia by a well-known
>>> and
>>> prolific DXpeditioner.  I was the only person in the room who stood up
>>> with
>>> a dissenting opinion about it.  However, I did have several people come
>>> up
>>> to me after the presentation was over to tell me they agreed with me.
>>>
>>> Reducing the human element ruins the accomplishment, in my opinion.  I
>>> think many others agree with that sentiment.
>>>
>>> I am all for technological advancement, but, for instance, when SSB
>>> supplanted AM, the human element was not reduced.
>>>
>>> Digital mode proponents will say that there is still a human element to
>>> the
>>> process (despite what some naysayers have proclaimed), and I agree.
>>> However, the REDUCTION of the human element reduces the FUN part of it.
>>> One can argue that you cannot copy RTTY without electronic means, either.
>>> That does not fully compare with how the JT modes work. The JT modes,
>>> more
>>> than any others, reduce the human's role in the QSO.  When was the last
>>> time a mechanical RTTY machine responded back without it's human pushing
>>> the green keys?
>>>
>>> 73, Tony K4QE
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 1:51 PM, Brian Pease 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> When 90% of band activity is taking place in ~1% of the available
 bandwidth, it gets one's attention, doesn't it.
 Personally, I have always considered DXpedition, and especially contest,
 CW exchanges to be a bit silly, with nearly everyone getting a 5NN
 signal
 report.  With today's technology I think eventually a computer will be
 able  sort out a CW pileup nearly as well as a human, and do it 24/7
 while
 perhaps giving more accurate signal reports.  Maybe someday there will
 be
 unmanned solar-powered stations on remote DX entities.  It is certainly
 much easier than self-driving cars, which should be sorted out in a few
 years.


 On 3/30/2018 1:02 PM, Ed Sawyer wrote:

 My thoughts on FT8:
>
>
> -  How is it actually a Q from our normal perspective?  The
> comments
> Jeff made on the fact that 2 operators (on both sides of the circuit)
> could
> see evidence of each other for 20 minutes before the "computers"
> finally
> made the connection - is proof that the operator is not making the QSO.
>
> -  There is a floating robot in the Pacific making FT8 QSOs

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Grant Saviers]

Yep, automatic TTY networks go back a lot more than 50 years. Certainly 
with the Model 19 in the 1940s and probably before that.


The ASR-33 and its "stunt box" are a true marvel of low cost mechanical 
engineering.  Send WRU, asking "who are you?"  And the automatic answer 
back - "HERE IS" a character stream (older TTYs in baudot, USASCII for 
ASR33) sent in response from a broken off tabs on a drum, up to 20 
characters (more than FT8 - hi).  Plus the A is ASR means a remote TTY 
(later a computer) on the TTY network  could command the paper tape in 
the reader to be sent without any humans around.  Or an electrical 
switch could be triggered - like to turn on your amp.


The ASR33 wasn't the first TTY to offer such capability, the Model 28 
and many before it enabled very large TTY networks to operate unattended 
at the remotes.  I worked on the computer end of one as a summer job in 
the 1960's.  A lot of those "telephone" lines leased for TTY use were DC 
circuits end to end and could have surprisingly high voltages present to 
overcome the line resistance.


https://www.smecc.org/teleprinters/28stuntbox001.pdf

Another example besides punched cards where mechanical widgets performed 
pretty complex tasks we have forgotten or now think were invented with 
computers.


A fun place to see such stuff in Seattle 
http://www.museumofcommunications.org/Plus Paul Allen's Living 
Computer Museum http://www.livingcomputers.org/  (older computers 
restored and working)


And the best computer museum is in MountainView CA   The Computer 
History Museum   computerhistory.org  Main exhibit "Revolution, the 
First 2000 Years of Computing"


Grant KZ1W



On 3/30/2018 17:15 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:



When was the last time a mechanical RTTY machine responded back
without it's human pushing the green keys?

Mechanical RTTY machines have had answerback (WRU) capability for more
than 50 years:
 

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/30/2018 2:21 PM, Anthony Scandurra wrote:
"Maybe someday there will be unmanned solar-powered stations on 
remote DX

entities."

This was actually proposed at the 2017 IDXC in Visalia by a 
well-known and
prolific DXpeditioner.  I was the only person in the room who stood 
up with
a dissenting opinion about it.  However, I did have several people 
come up

to me after the presentation was over to tell me they agreed with me.

Reducing the human element ruins the accomplishment, in my opinion.  I
think many others agree with that sentiment.

I am all for technological advancement, but, for instance, when SSB
supplanted AM, the human element was not reduced.

Digital mode proponents will say that there is still a human element 
to the

process (despite what some naysayers have proclaimed), and I agree.
However, the REDUCTION of the human element reduces the FUN part of it.
One can argue that you cannot copy RTTY without electronic means, 
either.
That does not fully compare with how the JT modes work. The JT modes, 
more

than any others, reduce the human's role in the QSO.  When was the last
time a mechanical RTTY machine responded back without it's human pushing
the green keys?

73, Tony K4QE

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 1:51 PM, Brian Pease 
wrote:


When 90% of band activity is taking place in ~1% of the available
bandwidth, it gets one's attention, doesn't it.
Personally, I have always considered DXpedition, and especially 
contest,
CW exchanges to be a bit silly, with nearly everyone getting a 5NN 
signal

report.  With today's technology I think eventually a computer will be
able  sort out a CW pileup nearly as well as a human, and do it 24/7 
while
perhaps giving more accurate signal reports.  Maybe someday there 
will be

unmanned solar-powered stations on remote DX entities.  It is certainly
much easier than self-driving cars, which should be sorted out in a few
years.


On 3/30/2018 1:02 PM, Ed Sawyer wrote:


My thoughts on FT8:


-  How is it actually a Q from our normal perspective?  The
comments
Jeff made on the fact that 2 operators (on both sides of the circuit)
could
see evidence of each other for 20 minutes before the "computers" 
finally
made the connection - is proof that the operator is not making the 
QSO.


-  There is a floating robot in the Pacific making FT8 QSOs 
with

people right now - unattended.

-  3Z9DX has stated that they will leave an FT8 station 
going 24/7

(which means unattended) on T31.

-  Are these what we want to count as QSOs?  What about in
contests
- FT8 is already infiltrating VHF contests.  Should they be considered
valid
contest Qs - while you sleep?

-  I agree with Jeff and others that for people that that 
consider
topband a PTA to operate and/or are not CW operators - 160M looks 
like the
perfect place to drop a robot and go concentrate on something 
else.  But
isn't this a slippery slope?  What about 10M/12M since the 

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[VK3HJ]

Having gone from 100% phone operations to more than 90% CW in the past ten 
years, I have my opinions on mode use, but I'll attempt to keep them 
relevant.


I have played a bit with RTTY and PSK, and have made a few Hellschreiber and 
Olivia contacts. Digital modes are technically interesting, but not 
attractive to me, at this time. I'll never say never! The above modes can be 
used to converse, compared with the very technically clever JT modes which 
are so pared-down, that only the very bare essentials are passed. That 
appeals to some, even many amateur operators, for various reasons already 
discussed. I will not criticise those who enjoy operating that way.


After an unproductive session on Top Band last night, I went to 40 m for an 
"easy" DX CW QSO before retiring to bed. I don't feel the need to field 
pileups of "short QSO" every time I transmit, and really do enjoy a few or 
several minutes of exchanges with the other operator. Nor do I feel the need 
to log "x" number of QSO every time I light my station.


On most, if not all of our DX bands, there is adequate, if not plenty of 
spectrum to separate the various modes and type of digital modes into their 
sub-bands to reduce or hopefully eliminate conflict. One good thing about 
the new very narrow-band digital modes is that one can fit a bunch of 
activity into a few kilohertz of spectrum.


My point is, how about we keep mode sub-bands harmonised internationally, so 
each can co-exist without upsetting the neighbours? We don't need an IARU 
Conference every time a new mode is invented. There are plenty of interest 
groups that can coordinate internationally, given the almost universal 
common medium of the Internet.


This year, I resolve to become proficient in the use of my Vibroplex Bug!

73,

Luke VK3HJ 


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Matt NQ6N]

This is a very interesting discussion. I'd noticed some bugs in DXpedition
mode with FT8 but am looking forward to those being resolved. I'd suggest
an alternative FT8 frequency for any and all participants to test out
DXPedition mode while the bugs get worked out.

I have an inverted L on 160m and after about 300W on TX I become severely
limited by my lack of RX antennas and become an alligator.  For what it's
worth, the existence of FT8 does not reduce my interest in improving my RX
antennas whatsoever.  I've worked one or two new countries on 160 on FT8
that I hadn't worked yet on CW.  I know that from 9 land even if I maximize
the investment of money and engineering at my QTH toward RX antennas, I'll
still be able to complete more QSOs on FT8 than on CW due to the processing
gain of FT8.

As someone who has (for various reasons) not had the chance (yet) to put up
competitive antennas, the DX bug has bitten me most noticeably with FT8.
When the software prints out a line that shows up purple meaning it's a new
country I get a big rush of adrenaline.  It makes doing ham radio from the
black hole a lot more fun. And yes, it's quite a thrill to CQ on 160m FT8
and see RX reports light up across Europe on pskreporter.  I'm still an
alligator, but I now have a much better sense of the DX QSOs I'm missing
out on.

So overall I think that FT8 is a great thing for DXing. Yes, it does alter
the fairness of the honor roll competition because of the processing gain,
but if we wanted it to be completely fair we'd incorporate all gain (from
antennas and processing) and use some distance-based metric, handicapping
stations closer to the DX such that they'd be forced to use lower power,
etc.  DXing was absolutely not "fair" before FT8, so I don't think that we
have much to worry about with the advent of FT8 other than a flood of new
DXers joining the fun in the pileups.

73,
Matt NQ6N/9



On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 7:15 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:

>
> When was the last time a mechanical RTTY machine responded back
>> without it's human pushing the green keys?
>>
> Mechanical RTTY machines have had answerback (WRU) capability for more
> than 50 years:
>  
>
> 73,
>
>... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>
> On 3/30/2018 2:21 PM, Anthony Scandurra wrote:
>
>> "Maybe someday there will be unmanned solar-powered stations on remote DX
>> entities."
>>
>> This was actually proposed at the 2017 IDXC in Visalia by a well-known and
>> prolific DXpeditioner.  I was the only person in the room who stood up
>> with
>> a dissenting opinion about it.  However, I did have several people come up
>> to me after the presentation was over to tell me they agreed with me.
>>
>> Reducing the human element ruins the accomplishment, in my opinion.  I
>> think many others agree with that sentiment.
>>
>> I am all for technological advancement, but, for instance, when SSB
>> supplanted AM, the human element was not reduced.
>>
>> Digital mode proponents will say that there is still a human element to
>> the
>> process (despite what some naysayers have proclaimed), and I agree.
>> However, the REDUCTION of the human element reduces the FUN part of it.
>> One can argue that you cannot copy RTTY without electronic means, either.
>> That does not fully compare with how the JT modes work. The JT modes, more
>> than any others, reduce the human's role in the QSO.  When was the last
>> time a mechanical RTTY machine responded back without it's human pushing
>> the green keys?
>>
>> 73, Tony K4QE
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 1:51 PM, Brian Pease 
>> wrote:
>>
>> When 90% of band activity is taking place in ~1% of the available
>>> bandwidth, it gets one's attention, doesn't it.
>>> Personally, I have always considered DXpedition, and especially contest,
>>> CW exchanges to be a bit silly, with nearly everyone getting a 5NN signal
>>> report.  With today's technology I think eventually a computer will be
>>> able  sort out a CW pileup nearly as well as a human, and do it 24/7
>>> while
>>> perhaps giving more accurate signal reports.  Maybe someday there will be
>>> unmanned solar-powered stations on remote DX entities.  It is certainly
>>> much easier than self-driving cars, which should be sorted out in a few
>>> years.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/30/2018 1:02 PM, Ed Sawyer wrote:
>>>
>>> My thoughts on FT8:


 -  How is it actually a Q from our normal perspective?  The
 comments
 Jeff made on the fact that 2 operators (on both sides of the circuit)
 could
 see evidence of each other for 20 minutes before the "computers" finally
 made the connection - is proof that the operator is not making the QSO.

 -  There is a floating robot in the Pacific making FT8 QSOs with
 people right now - unattended.

 -  3Z9DX has stated that they will leave an FT8 station going
 24/7
 (which means unattended) on T31.

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Brian Pease]

I predict that it won't be long before there is an FT-8 robot, or 
something similar, on the Moon!  What better way to test a new antenna 
than a long haul s/n report?
No one has mention Amateur satellites yet that in some cases have 
allowed working thousands of miles with a handheld.


On 3/30/2018 3:54 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
I've "made a contact", if you want to call it that, with that robot 
twice now.  That's about the only use I have for FT8; making contacts 
that shouldn't count for anything, although, I think ARRL accepts them 
for the grid chase thingy.


Wes  N7WS

ps. At least it didn't send me a text via JTAlert telling me what to 
send next, as happened on a "QSO" with some west African station.


On 3/30/2018 12:23 PM, Jamie WW3S wrote:
actually happening as we speak ( or type)..Jupiter Research 
Foundation has an unmanned boat type drone searching the pacific for 
humpback whales, and the drone has a solar powered ham transceiver on 
board, passing out FT8 contacts as it motors around the 
pacificlast I looked made a little over 1100 qsos.from some 
pretty rare grid squares  


_
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_
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Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

When was the last time a mechanical RTTY machine responded back
without it's human pushing the green keys?

Mechanical RTTY machines have had answerback (WRU) capability for more
than 50 years:
 

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/30/2018 2:21 PM, Anthony Scandurra wrote:

"Maybe someday there will be unmanned solar-powered stations on remote DX
entities."

This was actually proposed at the 2017 IDXC in Visalia by a well-known and
prolific DXpeditioner.  I was the only person in the room who stood up with
a dissenting opinion about it.  However, I did have several people come up
to me after the presentation was over to tell me they agreed with me.

Reducing the human element ruins the accomplishment, in my opinion.  I
think many others agree with that sentiment.

I am all for technological advancement, but, for instance, when SSB
supplanted AM, the human element was not reduced.

Digital mode proponents will say that there is still a human element to the
process (despite what some naysayers have proclaimed), and I agree.
However, the REDUCTION of the human element reduces the FUN part of it.
One can argue that you cannot copy RTTY without electronic means, either.
That does not fully compare with how the JT modes work. The JT modes, more
than any others, reduce the human's role in the QSO.  When was the last
time a mechanical RTTY machine responded back without it's human pushing
the green keys?

73, Tony K4QE

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 1:51 PM, Brian Pease 
wrote:


When 90% of band activity is taking place in ~1% of the available
bandwidth, it gets one's attention, doesn't it.
Personally, I have always considered DXpedition, and especially contest,
CW exchanges to be a bit silly, with nearly everyone getting a 5NN signal
report.  With today's technology I think eventually a computer will be
able  sort out a CW pileup nearly as well as a human, and do it 24/7 while
perhaps giving more accurate signal reports.  Maybe someday there will be
unmanned solar-powered stations on remote DX entities.  It is certainly
much easier than self-driving cars, which should be sorted out in a few
years.


On 3/30/2018 1:02 PM, Ed Sawyer wrote:


My thoughts on FT8:


-  How is it actually a Q from our normal perspective?  The
comments
Jeff made on the fact that 2 operators (on both sides of the circuit)
could
see evidence of each other for 20 minutes before the "computers" finally
made the connection - is proof that the operator is not making the QSO.

-  There is a floating robot in the Pacific making FT8 QSOs with
people right now - unattended.

-  3Z9DX has stated that they will leave an FT8 station going 24/7
(which means unattended) on T31.

-  Are these what we want to count as QSOs?  What about in
contests
- FT8 is already infiltrating VHF contests.  Should they be considered
valid
contest Qs - while you sleep?

-  I agree with Jeff and others that for people that that consider
topband a PTA to operate and/or are not CW operators - 160M looks like the
perfect place to drop a robot and go concentrate on something else.  But
isn't this a slippery slope?  What about 10M/12M since the sunspots are
low.
Or 80M because the static crashes in the tropics are terrible - etc.
Before
you know it the whole DXpedition is an FT8 robot while the "crew" is
lounging about the pool with the XYL/YLs.

-  If we continue to facilitate such nonsense, they we deserve
what
we get in my opinion.  If we decide that the band counter is so important
we
don't care how we have to get it, then its time to look in the mirror
folks.

-  On the other hand, maybe some people are happier with the
computer doing the heavy lifting of digging out the QSO.  Personally,
count
me out of that list.


Ed  N1UR

_
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Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 3/30/2018 3:43 PM, daraym...@iowatelecom.net wrote:

The rub comes in when those contacts are lumped in and counted for
DXCC mixed and other recognition programs in the same manner as
traditional contacts.


The difference in sensitivity between FT8 and CW is about as much as
between AM and CW.  There is no thought of banning CW from Mixed DXCC
so why should FT8 be treated any differently?  What FT8 does is allow
those who are not running California Killowatts on 160 meters a real
chance of success where they had no shot previously.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/30/2018 3:43 PM, daraym...@iowatelecom.net wrote:

Hello George. . .

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.  I don't believe most hams have any 
issue with computer-to-computer modes opening up new opportunities for 
hams with limited facilities.  The rub comes in when those contacts are 
lumped in and counted for DXCC mixed and other recognition programs in 
the same manner as traditional contacts.  To use your boat analogy 
below, it's like putting a power boat in the same race with a sailboat.  
They both have their merits. . .but they are simply two different 
things.  That said, there will always be people seeking equal 
recognition without having to make the effort. . . that's become a given 
in the pop culture. 73 to all. . .Dave, W0FLS


-Original Message- From: GEORGE WALLNER
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 1:26 PM
To: daraym...@iowatelecom.net ; k...@aol.com ; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is 
Upon us!


Dave,
For those of us who like CW, it will always be the preferred mode. FT8 may
lower the DXCC threshold; perhaps it should be counted differently. But FT8
is opening 160 m to hams with limited facilities, and that is a good thing.
Most of us know that HF is a linear environment and that there is always
some signal, even if it is way below the noise. That signal has always been
there, ready to be exploited by a new mode. So FT8's success should not 
be a

surprise.
Personally, I want the CW QSO, not the just the QSO.
I see a parallel in sailing. Power boats (and ships for sure) way 
outperform

sailing boats. Still, there are as many sailing enthusiasts out there as
before. They love sailing, not just getting there.

C U on CW,

George.
AA7JV



On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 10:10:29 -0500
   wrote:
IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW 
(alas). Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them 
are virtually meaningless.  The guy with a  backyard vertical, 
reasonable radial system, and 100w can easily accomplish on topband 
(and get equal DXCC credit) what has historically taken a significant 
effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays, and receive antennas.  As for 
the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to this mode with the 
improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively little skill on 
the part of the operators.   For me personally, it is disappointing to 
watch it all unfold. But unfold, it will.   73. . .Dave, W0FLS


-Original Message- From: k1zm--- via Topband
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:50 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is 
Upon us!


Hello Gang
I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, 
but I may be the first to comment directly on what has been taking 
place right before our eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its 
possible implications going forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls 
read on.


I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current 
dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI. Norbert DJ7JC has been a 
real trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success 
doing so - so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert.  Norbert has 
managed to make quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on 
Topband and we all very much appreciate his efforts - well done 
Norbert - thank you!


So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion 
on Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and 
its possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.


On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in 
his grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including 
NO3M and me here at VY2ZM. Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS 
may have been another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU 
stations in there calling among the NA stations.


About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but 
QRNN on his side prevented a legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I 
know he did not copy my callsign correctly - and later he even said so 
over ON4KST noting "I heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged 
no NA or EU qso's on Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun 
came up."


The next night Norbert came on ON4KST  chat and announced that 

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 3/30/2018 1:12 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
> What FT8 will bring is the ability to use daytimes on 160 and 80 for
> reliable distance communications with particular people with real
> communications, like texting over the phone or email.

FT8 is not a "conversational mode" and can't (absent an internet
connection) be used for texting.

> I definitely do see FT8 as having an impact of some sort in disaster
> communications where commercial or generator AC power is flat gone and
> solar charged batteries are all there is.

FT8 has a limited protocol - it is not useful *AT ALL* for passing
emergency communications other than "are you there"/"yes I'm here"
type messages.  This is also why - unless you're willing to reduce
contest exchanges to callsign and grid (4 character) square - FT8
is useless for contesting.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/30/2018 1:12 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

The awards usually come with CW, SSB and digital as categories.

What I see is FT8 displacing RTTY for awards, but not for contesting.

What FT8 will bring is the ability to use daytimes on 160 and 80 for
reliable distance communications with particular people with real
communications, like texting over the phone or email. Just exactly how far
that is on 160 at high noon yet to be determined.

I definitely do see FT8 as having an impact of some sort in disaster
communications where commercial or generator AC power is flat gone and
solar charged batteries are all there is. There would probably need to be
an asymmetrical FT8 where volume is 97% outbound. The platform seems to
have endless possibilities and I think the fellows will get there.

73, Guy

**
*Lowering SWR does *
*   not *
*   predict performance.*

*A dummy load, *
*   with its perfect SWR, *
*   is a worse antenna *
*   than a light bulb. *

*First discern and remove *
*   the loss in low band*
*   antenna systems.*
*--*

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 11:36 AM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:


I’ve been having a lot of fun with FT8 but it certainly has not replaced
CW for my DXing.

I do 80M-specific DX Marathon each year. So far this year I have 107 80M
DXCCs worked - 104 on CW and 3 on SSB. And none that I needed FT8 or RTTY
for.

I will agree, if a guy doesn’t do CW, FT8 is probably going to be a big
part of his DX diet.

DXpedition rates are fun to listen to when they are doing 200+ an hour.
Right now FT8 (non-DXpedition mode) tops out at maybe 25 an hour when there
are no problems. The instant you have any sort of sequencing problem, the
rate can drop to 2 an hour. The experimental FT8 DXpedition mode may
alleviate (through parallel ongoing Qs) morning be guys sequencing problem
from bringing everything to a halt.

Tim N3QE


On Mar 30, 2018, at 11:10 AM,  <

daraym...@iowatelecom.net> wrote:


IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas).

Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually
meaningless.  The guy with a  backyard vertical, reasonable radial system,
and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what
has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays,
and receive antennas.  As for the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to
this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively
little skill on the part of the operators.   For me personally, it is
disappointing to watch it all unfold.  But unfold, it will.   73. .
.Dave, W0FLS


-Original Message- From: k1zm--- via Topband
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:50 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is

Upon us!


Hello Gang
I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but

I may be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right
before our eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible
implications going forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on.


I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current

dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI.  Norbert DJ7JC has been a real
trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so -
so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert.  Norbert has managed to make
quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very
much appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!


So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion

on Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its
possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.


On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in

his grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M
and me here at VY2ZM.  Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have
been another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Wes Stewart]

I've "made a contact", if you want to call it that, with that robot twice now.  
That's about the only use I have for FT8; making contacts that shouldn't count 
for anything, although, I think ARRL accepts them for the grid chase thingy.


Wes  N7WS

ps. At least it didn't send me a text via JTAlert telling me what to send next, 
as happened on a "QSO" with some west African station.


On 3/30/2018 12:23 PM, Jamie WW3S wrote:
actually happening as we speak ( or type)..Jupiter Research Foundation has 
an unmanned boat type drone searching the pacific for humpback whales, and the 
drone has a solar powered ham transceiver on board, passing out FT8 contacts 
as it motors around the pacificlast I looked made a little over 1100 
qsos.from some pretty rare grid squares  


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[daraymond]

Hello George. . .

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.  I don't believe most hams have any 
issue with computer-to-computer modes opening up new opportunities for hams 
with limited facilities.  The rub comes in when those contacts are lumped in 
and counted for DXCC mixed and other recognition programs in the same manner 
as traditional contacts.  To use your boat analogy below, it's like putting 
a power boat in the same race with a sailboat.  They both have their merits. 
. .but they are simply two different things.  That said, there will always 
be people seeking equal recognition without having to make the effort. . . 
that's become a given in the pop culture. 73 to all. . .Dave, W0FLS


-Original Message- 
From: GEORGE WALLNER

Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 1:26 PM
To: daraym...@iowatelecom.net ; k...@aol.com ; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is 
Upon us!


Dave,
For those of us who like CW, it will always be the preferred mode. FT8 may
lower the DXCC threshold; perhaps it should be counted differently. But FT8
is opening 160 m to hams with limited facilities, and that is a good thing.
Most of us know that HF is a linear environment and that there is always
some signal, even if it is way below the noise. That signal has always been
there, ready to be exploited by a new mode. So FT8's success should not be a
surprise.
Personally, I want the CW QSO, not the just the QSO.
I see a parallel in sailing. Power boats (and ships for sure) way outperform
sailing boats. Still, there are as many sailing enthusiasts out there as
before. They love sailing, not just getting there.

C U on CW,

George.
AA7JV



On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 10:10:29 -0500
  wrote:
IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas). 
Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually 
meaningless.  The guy with a  backyard vertical, reasonable radial system, 
and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what 
has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large 
antennas/arrays, and receive antennas.  As for the DXpeditions, they will 
quickly migrate to this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it 
requires comparatively little skill on the part of the operators.   For me 
personally, it is disappointing to watch it all unfold. But unfold, it 
will.   73. . .Dave, W0FLS


-Original Message- From: k1zm--- via Topband
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:50 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon 
us!


Hello Gang
I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but I 
may be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right 
before our eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible 
implications going forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on.


I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current 
dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI. Norbert DJ7JC has been a real 
trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so - 
so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert.  Norbert has managed to make 
quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very 
much appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!


So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on 
Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its 
possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.


On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his 
grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and 
me here at VY2ZM. Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have 
been another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in 
there calling among the NA stations.


About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but QRNN 
on his side prevented a legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I know he 
did not copy my callsign correctly - and later he even said so over ON4KST 
noting "I heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU qso's 
on Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up."


The next night Norbert came on ON4KST  chat and announced that he was 
going to try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials 
following its release by K1JT.  I am told that the dx'pedition version of 
FT8 will also be used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition.


Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise when and if it ever is fully 
conceived including:


1) A shortened qso sequence using only 2 of the traditional FT8 required 
QSO elements
2) The promise of simultaneous qso's between Multiple HOUNDS and the FOX 
(in this example the FOX was 7Q7EI)
3) The potential, as a result, of up to 300-400 qso's per hour may be 
possible one day - which would 

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Jamie WW3S]

actually happening as we speak ( or type)..Jupiter Research Foundation 
has an unmanned boat type drone searching the pacific for humpback whales, 
and the drone has a solar powered ham transceiver on board, passing out FT8 
contacts as it motors around the pacificlast I looked made a little over 
1100 qsos.from some pretty rare grid squares 


-Original Message- 
From: Anthony Scandurra

Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 2:21 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is 
Upon us!


"Maybe someday there will be unmanned solar-powered stations on remote DX
entities."

This was actually proposed at the 2017 IDXC in Visalia by a well-known and
prolific DXpeditioner.  I was the only person in the room who stood up with
a dissenting opinion about it.  However, I did have several people come up
to me after the presentation was over to tell me they agreed with me.

Reducing the human element ruins the accomplishment, in my opinion.  I
think many others agree with that sentiment.

I am all for technological advancement, but, for instance, when SSB
supplanted AM, the human element was not reduced.

Digital mode proponents will say that there is still a human element to the
process (despite what some naysayers have proclaimed), and I agree.
However, the REDUCTION of the human element reduces the FUN part of it.
One can argue that you cannot copy RTTY without electronic means, either.
That does not fully compare with how the JT modes work. The JT modes, more
than any others, reduce the human's role in the QSO.  When was the last
time a mechanical RTTY machine responded back without it's human pushing
the green keys?

73, Tony K4QE

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 1:51 PM, Brian Pease 
wrote:


When 90% of band activity is taking place in ~1% of the available
bandwidth, it gets one's attention, doesn't it.
Personally, I have always considered DXpedition, and especially contest,
CW exchanges to be a bit silly, with nearly everyone getting a 5NN signal
report.  With today's technology I think eventually a computer will be
able  sort out a CW pileup nearly as well as a human, and do it 24/7 while
perhaps giving more accurate signal reports.  Maybe someday there will be
unmanned solar-powered stations on remote DX entities.  It is certainly
much easier than self-driving cars, which should be sorted out in a few
years.


On 3/30/2018 1:02 PM, Ed Sawyer wrote:


My thoughts on FT8:


-  How is it actually a Q from our normal perspective?  The
comments
Jeff made on the fact that 2 operators (on both sides of the circuit)
could
see evidence of each other for 20 minutes before the "computers" finally
made the connection - is proof that the operator is not making the QSO.

-  There is a floating robot in the Pacific making FT8 QSOs with
people right now - unattended.

-  3Z9DX has stated that they will leave an FT8 station going 
24/7

(which means unattended) on T31.

-  Are these what we want to count as QSOs?  What about in
contests
- FT8 is already infiltrating VHF contests.  Should they be considered
valid
contest Qs - while you sleep?

-  I agree with Jeff and others that for people that that 
consider
topband a PTA to operate and/or are not CW operators - 160M looks like 
the

perfect place to drop a robot and go concentrate on something else.  But
isn't this a slippery slope?  What about 10M/12M since the sunspots are
low.
Or 80M because the static crashes in the tropics are terrible - etc.
Before
you know it the whole DXpedition is an FT8 robot while the "crew" is
lounging about the pool with the XYL/YLs.

-  If we continue to facilitate such nonsense, they we deserve
what
we get in my opinion.  If we decide that the band counter is so important
we
don't care how we have to get it, then its time to look in the mirror
folks.

-  On the other hand, maybe some people are happier with the
computer doing the heavy lifting of digging out the QSO.  Personally,
count
me out of that list.


Ed  N1UR

_
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_
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Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Anthony Scandurra]

George,

I understand and agree with most of what you say, but the sailboat analogy
is a bad one.

I can sail a boat alone.  I can't have a QSO without someone else on the
same mode.  The vacuum FT8 creates is the problem.

73, Tony K4QE

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 2:26 PM, GEORGE WALLNER 
wrote:

> Dave,
> For those of us who like CW, it will always be the preferred mode. FT8 may
> lower the DXCC threshold; perhaps it should be counted differently. But FT8
> is opening 160 m to hams with limited facilities, and that is a good thing.
> Most of us know that HF is a linear environment and that there is always
> some signal, even if it is way below the noise. That signal has always been
> there, ready to be exploited by a new mode. So FT8's success should not be
> a surprise.
> Personally, I want the CW QSO, not the just the QSO.
> I see a parallel in sailing. Power boats (and ships for sure) way
> outperform sailing boats. Still, there are as many sailing enthusiasts out
> there as before. They love sailing, not just getting there.
>
> C U on CW,
>
> George.
> AA7JV
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 10:10:29 -0500
>   wrote:
>
>> IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas).
>> Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually
>> meaningless.  The guy with a  backyard vertical, reasonable radial system,
>> and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what
>> has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays,
>> and receive antennas.  As for the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to
>> this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively
>> little skill on the part of the operators.   For me personally, it is
>> disappointing to watch it all unfold. But unfold, it will.   73. .
>> .Dave, W0FLS
>>
>> -Original Message- From: k1zm--- via Topband
>> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:50 AM
>> To: topband@contesting.com
>> Subject: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon
>> us!
>>
>> Hello Gang
>> I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but
>> I may be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right
>> before our eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible
>> implications going forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on.
>>
>> I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current
>> dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI. Norbert DJ7JC has been a real
>> trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so -
>> so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert.  Norbert has managed to make
>> quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very
>> much appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!
>>
>> So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on
>> Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its
>> possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.
>>
>> On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his
>> grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and
>> me here at VY2ZM. Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have been
>> another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in there
>> calling among the NA stations.
>>
>> About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but QRNN
>> on his side prevented a legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I know he did
>> not copy my callsign correctly - and later he even said so over ON4KST
>> noting "I heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU qso's
>> on Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up."
>>
>> The next night Norbert came on ON4KST  chat and announced that he was
>> going to try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials
>> following its release by K1JT.  I am told that the dx'pedition version of
>> FT8 will also be used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition.
>>
>> Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise when and if it ever is
>> fully conceived including:
>>
>> 1) A shortened qso sequence using only 2 of the traditional FT8 required
>> QSO elements
>> 2) The promise of simultaneous qso's between Multiple HOUNDS and the FOX
>> (in this example the FOX was 7Q7EI)
>> 3) The potential, as a result, of up to 300-400 qso's per hour may be
>> possible one day - which would improve the overall qso totals of any
>> dx'pedition - IF this ever becomes REALITY.
>>
>> So on night two Norbert came up on FT8 dx'pedition mode - first on 80m
>> and I managed to work him fairly quickly here at VY2ZM.
>>
>> Others worked him as well - as we all struggled to learn exactly how to
>> operate this new flavor of FT8.  It is a bit tricky and I invite anyone
>> reading this who may be interested to take a look - because Dx'pedition
>> mode uses special 

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[GEORGE WALLNER]

Dave,
For those of us who like CW, it will always be the preferred mode. FT8 may 
lower the DXCC threshold; perhaps it should be counted differently. But FT8 
is opening 160 m to hams with limited facilities, and that is a good thing.
Most of us know that HF is a linear environment and that there is always 
some signal, even if it is way below the noise. That signal has always been 
there, ready to be exploited by a new mode. So FT8's success should not be a 
surprise.

Personally, I want the CW QSO, not the just the QSO.
I see a parallel in sailing. Power boats (and ships for sure) way outperform 
sailing boats. Still, there are as many sailing enthusiasts out there as 
before. They love sailing, not just getting there.


C U on CW,

George.
AA7JV



On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 10:10:29 -0500
  wrote:
IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas). Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually meaningless.  The guy with a  backyard vertical, reasonable radial system, and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays, and receive antennas.  As for the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively little skill on the part of the operators.   For me personally, it is disappointing to watch it all unfold. 
But unfold, it will.   73. . .Dave, W0FLS


-Original Message- From: k1zm--- via Topband
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:50 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

Hello Gang
I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but I may 
be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right before our 
eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible implications going 
forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on.

I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI. 
Norbert DJ7JC has been a real trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so - so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert.  Norbert has managed to make quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very much appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!


So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on 
Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its 
possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.

On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and me here at VY2ZM. 
Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have been another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in there calling among the NA stations.


About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but QRNN on his side 
prevented a legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I know he did not copy my callsign 
correctly - and later he even said so over ON4KST noting "I heard a few callers, 
mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU qso's on Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the 
sun came up."

The next night Norbert came on ON4KST  chat and announced that he was going to 
try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials following its 
release by K1JT.  I am told that the dx'pedition version of FT8 will also be 
used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition.

Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise when and if it ever is fully 
conceived including:

1) A shortened qso sequence using only 2 of the traditional FT8 required QSO 
elements
2) The promise of simultaneous qso's between Multiple HOUNDS and the FOX (in 
this example the FOX was 7Q7EI)
3) The potential, as a result, of up to 300-400 qso's per hour may be possible 
one day - which would improve the overall qso totals of any dx'pedition - IF 
this ever becomes REALITY.

So on night two Norbert came up on FT8 dx'pedition mode - first on 80m and I 
managed to work him fairly quickly here at VY2ZM.

Others worked him as well - as we all struggled to learn exactly how to operate 
this new flavor of FT8.  It is a bit tricky and I invite anyone reading this 
who may be interested to take a look - because Dx'pedition mode uses special 
settings within WSJT-x - and one must configure things exactly right - or it 
just does not function as one might expect traditional FT8 to function in order 
to complete qso's.

Nearer to his SR, Norbert went to 1836 and I think he may have worked a couple 
of NA stations - I tried but without success because I did not pay close enough 
attention to ON4KST - and I came to 160m too late in the game to have a good 
shot as he went into daylight on his side.

So what is going on here exactly?  And why did I choose to 

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Anthony Scandurra]

"Maybe someday there will be unmanned solar-powered stations on remote DX
entities."

This was actually proposed at the 2017 IDXC in Visalia by a well-known and
prolific DXpeditioner.  I was the only person in the room who stood up with
a dissenting opinion about it.  However, I did have several people come up
to me after the presentation was over to tell me they agreed with me.

Reducing the human element ruins the accomplishment, in my opinion.  I
think many others agree with that sentiment.

I am all for technological advancement, but, for instance, when SSB
supplanted AM, the human element was not reduced.

Digital mode proponents will say that there is still a human element to the
process (despite what some naysayers have proclaimed), and I agree.
However, the REDUCTION of the human element reduces the FUN part of it.
One can argue that you cannot copy RTTY without electronic means, either.
That does not fully compare with how the JT modes work. The JT modes, more
than any others, reduce the human's role in the QSO.  When was the last
time a mechanical RTTY machine responded back without it's human pushing
the green keys?

73, Tony K4QE

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 1:51 PM, Brian Pease 
wrote:

> When 90% of band activity is taking place in ~1% of the available
> bandwidth, it gets one's attention, doesn't it.
> Personally, I have always considered DXpedition, and especially contest,
> CW exchanges to be a bit silly, with nearly everyone getting a 5NN signal
> report.  With today's technology I think eventually a computer will be
> able  sort out a CW pileup nearly as well as a human, and do it 24/7 while
> perhaps giving more accurate signal reports.  Maybe someday there will be
> unmanned solar-powered stations on remote DX entities.  It is certainly
> much easier than self-driving cars, which should be sorted out in a few
> years.
>
>
> On 3/30/2018 1:02 PM, Ed Sawyer wrote:
>
>> My thoughts on FT8:
>>
>>
>> -  How is it actually a Q from our normal perspective?  The
>> comments
>> Jeff made on the fact that 2 operators (on both sides of the circuit)
>> could
>> see evidence of each other for 20 minutes before the "computers" finally
>> made the connection - is proof that the operator is not making the QSO.
>>
>> -  There is a floating robot in the Pacific making FT8 QSOs with
>> people right now - unattended.
>>
>> -  3Z9DX has stated that they will leave an FT8 station going 24/7
>> (which means unattended) on T31.
>>
>> -  Are these what we want to count as QSOs?  What about in
>> contests
>> - FT8 is already infiltrating VHF contests.  Should they be considered
>> valid
>> contest Qs - while you sleep?
>>
>> -  I agree with Jeff and others that for people that that consider
>> topband a PTA to operate and/or are not CW operators - 160M looks like the
>> perfect place to drop a robot and go concentrate on something else.  But
>> isn't this a slippery slope?  What about 10M/12M since the sunspots are
>> low.
>> Or 80M because the static crashes in the tropics are terrible - etc.
>> Before
>> you know it the whole DXpedition is an FT8 robot while the "crew" is
>> lounging about the pool with the XYL/YLs.
>>
>> -  If we continue to facilitate such nonsense, they we deserve
>> what
>> we get in my opinion.  If we decide that the band counter is so important
>> we
>> don't care how we have to get it, then its time to look in the mirror
>> folks.
>>
>> -  On the other hand, maybe some people are happier with the
>> computer doing the heavy lifting of digging out the QSO.  Personally,
>> count
>> me out of that list.
>>
>>
>> Ed  N1UR
>>
>> _
>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>
>>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
_
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Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Lee. KX4TT via Topband]

No, That would not be useful, but a bunch of canned messages that resemble grid 
square numbers would be useful, especially when locations are preplanned. Look 
at all the Q Codes associated with a SOS, and you'll get some ideas. 

Ex. Exchange 

AA4FL KX4TT QTCC   (locations are preplanned so AA4FL knows where I am)(Second 
C means Critical)
KX4TT AA4FL QRV 
AA4FL F8S6 (8 fatalities, 6 serious injuries) / AA4FL S3M0 (3 serious, 10 or 
more minor)
KX4TT QTC (any more?)
AA4FL NIL
KX4TT RF8S6T (Received info, t can mean anything for transport available to 
time-wait for instructions)

2nd example
AA4FL KX4TT QTC   (locations are preplanned so AA4FL knows where I am)
KX4TT AA4FL QRV 
AA4FL S3M0 (3 serious, 10 or more minor)
KX4TT NRM (TOTAL MINOR ?)
AA4FL M27
KX4TT R T15 (Received info, T can mean - will reply in 15 or transport should 
be there in 15)

73 es GUD DX de Lee KX4TT




-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
k8...@alphacomm.net
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 13:39 
To: Guy Olinger K2AV ; Topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon 
us!

Just think about thatAfter some terrific disaster, you'll be able to tell 
the outside world your grid square & signal report. Good luck with that...

Brian  K8BHZ


On 3/30/2018 1:12 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>
> I definitely do see FT8 as having an impact of some sort in disaster 
> communications where commercial or generator AC power is flat gone and 
> solar charged batteries are all there is. There would probably need to 
> be an asymmetrical FT8 where volume is 97% outbound. The platform 
> seems to have endless possibilities and I think the fellows will get there.
>
> 73, Guy
>
>


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Brian Pease]

When 90% of band activity is taking place in ~1% of the available 
bandwidth, it gets one's attention, doesn't it.
Personally, I have always considered DXpedition, and especially contest, 
CW exchanges to be a bit silly, with nearly everyone getting a 5NN 
signal report.  With today's technology I think eventually a computer 
will be able  sort out a CW pileup nearly as well as a human, and do it 
24/7 while perhaps giving more accurate signal reports.  Maybe someday 
there will be unmanned solar-powered stations on remote DX entities.  It 
is certainly much easier than self-driving cars, which should be sorted 
out in a few years.


On 3/30/2018 1:02 PM, Ed Sawyer wrote:

My thoughts on FT8:

  


-  How is it actually a Q from our normal perspective?  The comments
Jeff made on the fact that 2 operators (on both sides of the circuit) could
see evidence of each other for 20 minutes before the "computers" finally
made the connection - is proof that the operator is not making the QSO.

-  There is a floating robot in the Pacific making FT8 QSOs with
people right now - unattended.

-  3Z9DX has stated that they will leave an FT8 station going 24/7
(which means unattended) on T31.

-  Are these what we want to count as QSOs?  What about in contests
- FT8 is already infiltrating VHF contests.  Should they be considered valid
contest Qs - while you sleep?

-  I agree with Jeff and others that for people that that consider
topband a PTA to operate and/or are not CW operators - 160M looks like the
perfect place to drop a robot and go concentrate on something else.  But
isn't this a slippery slope?  What about 10M/12M since the sunspots are low.
Or 80M because the static crashes in the tropics are terrible - etc.  Before
you know it the whole DXpedition is an FT8 robot while the "crew" is
lounging about the pool with the XYL/YLs.

-  If we continue to facilitate such nonsense, they we deserve what
we get in my opinion.  If we decide that the band counter is so important we
don't care how we have to get it, then its time to look in the mirror folks.

-  On the other hand, maybe some people are happier with the
computer doing the heavy lifting of digging out the QSO.  Personally, count
me out of that list.

  


Ed  N1UR

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[k8...@alphacomm.net]

Just think about thatAfter some terrific disaster, you'll be able to 
tell the outside world your grid square & signal report. Good luck with 
that...


Brian  K8BHZ


On 3/30/2018 1:12 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:


I definitely do see FT8 as having an impact of some sort in disaster
communications where commercial or generator AC power is flat gone and
solar charged batteries are all there is. There would probably need to be
an asymmetrical FT8 where volume is 97% outbound. The platform seems to
have endless possibilities and I think the fellows will get there.

73, Guy





_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Hans Hjelmström]

FULLY AGREE.  Perfect written. THANKS.

BUT it is easy to solve this.
If ARRL make a special award for no hearing QSO and make these
computer to computer connections ONLY valid for this awardanyone that
like to work dxcc this way  can do so.Years ago they claimed minimum 339 or 33 
on a 
confirmation of a QSO  now they accept things much below possibility to hear
in your rx.

Final and PSE Happy Eastern and cu this season 6 meters and next on top band CW,
SSB,RTTY.Now to the dinning table for Eastern snaps,,,.

Hans SM6CVX
> 30 mar 2018 kl. 19:02 skrev Ed Sawyer :
> 
> My thoughts on FT8:
> 
> 
> 
> -  How is it actually a Q from our normal perspective?  The comments
> Jeff made on the fact that 2 operators (on both sides of the circuit) could
> see evidence of each other for 20 minutes before the "computers" finally
> made the connection - is proof that the operator is not making the QSO.
> 
> -  There is a floating robot in the Pacific making FT8 QSOs with
> people right now - unattended.
> 
> -  3Z9DX has stated that they will leave an FT8 station going 24/7
> (which means unattended) on T31.  
> 
> -  Are these what we want to count as QSOs?  What about in contests
> - FT8 is already infiltrating VHF contests.  Should they be considered valid
> contest Qs - while you sleep?
> 
> -  I agree with Jeff and others that for people that that consider
> topband a PTA to operate and/or are not CW operators - 160M looks like the
> perfect place to drop a robot and go concentrate on something else.  But
> isn't this a slippery slope?  What about 10M/12M since the sunspots are low.
> Or 80M because the static crashes in the tropics are terrible - etc.  Before
> you know it the whole DXpedition is an FT8 robot while the "crew" is
> lounging about the pool with the XYL/YLs.
> 
> -  If we continue to facilitate such nonsense, they we deserve what
> we get in my opinion.  If we decide that the band counter is so important we
> don't care how we have to get it, then its time to look in the mirror folks.
> 
> -  On the other hand, maybe some people are happier with the
> computer doing the heavy lifting of digging out the QSO.  Personally, count
> me out of that list.
> 
> 
> 
> Ed  N1UR
> 
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

The awards usually come with CW, SSB and digital as categories.

What I see is FT8 displacing RTTY for awards, but not for contesting.

What FT8 will bring is the ability to use daytimes on 160 and 80 for
reliable distance communications with particular people with real
communications, like texting over the phone or email. Just exactly how far
that is on 160 at high noon yet to be determined.

I definitely do see FT8 as having an impact of some sort in disaster
communications where commercial or generator AC power is flat gone and
solar charged batteries are all there is. There would probably need to be
an asymmetrical FT8 where volume is 97% outbound. The platform seems to
have endless possibilities and I think the fellows will get there.

73, Guy

**
*Lowering SWR does *
*   not *
*   predict performance.*

*A dummy load, *
*   with its perfect SWR, *
*   is a worse antenna *
*   than a light bulb. *

*First discern and remove *
*   the loss in low band*
*   antenna systems.*
*--*

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 11:36 AM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:

> I’ve been having a lot of fun with FT8 but it certainly has not replaced
> CW for my DXing.
>
> I do 80M-specific DX Marathon each year. So far this year I have 107 80M
> DXCCs worked - 104 on CW and 3 on SSB. And none that I needed FT8 or RTTY
> for.
>
> I will agree, if a guy doesn’t do CW, FT8 is probably going to be a big
> part of his DX diet.
>
> DXpedition rates are fun to listen to when they are doing 200+ an hour.
> Right now FT8 (non-DXpedition mode) tops out at maybe 25 an hour when there
> are no problems. The instant you have any sort of sequencing problem, the
> rate can drop to 2 an hour. The experimental FT8 DXpedition mode may
> alleviate (through parallel ongoing Qs) morning be guys sequencing problem
> from bringing everything to a halt.
>
> Tim N3QE
>
> > On Mar 30, 2018, at 11:10 AM,  <
> daraym...@iowatelecom.net> wrote:
> >
> > IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas).
> Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually
> meaningless.  The guy with a  backyard vertical, reasonable radial system,
> and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what
> has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays,
> and receive antennas.  As for the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to
> this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively
> little skill on the part of the operators.   For me personally, it is
> disappointing to watch it all unfold.  But unfold, it will.   73. .
> .Dave, W0FLS
> >
> > -Original Message- From: k1zm--- via Topband
> > Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:50 AM
> > To: topband@contesting.com
> > Subject: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is
> Upon us!
> >
> > Hello Gang
> > I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but
> I may be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right
> before our eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible
> implications going forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on.
> >
> > I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current
> dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI.  Norbert DJ7JC has been a real
> trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so -
> so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert.  Norbert has managed to make
> quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very
> much appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!
> >
> > So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion
> on Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its
> possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.
> >
> > On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in
> his grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M
> and me here at VY2ZM.  Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have
> been another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in
> there calling among the NA stations.
> >
> > About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but
> QRNN on his side prevented a legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I know
> he did not copy my callsign correctly - and later he even said so over
> ON4KST noting "I heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU
> qso's on Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up."
> >
> > The next night Norbert came on ON4KST  chat and announced that he was
> going to try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials
> following its release by K1JT.  I am told that the dx'pedition version of
> FT8 will also be used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition.
> >
> > Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise when and 

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Ed Sawyer]

My thoughts on FT8:

 

-  How is it actually a Q from our normal perspective?  The comments
Jeff made on the fact that 2 operators (on both sides of the circuit) could
see evidence of each other for 20 minutes before the "computers" finally
made the connection - is proof that the operator is not making the QSO.

-  There is a floating robot in the Pacific making FT8 QSOs with
people right now - unattended.

-  3Z9DX has stated that they will leave an FT8 station going 24/7
(which means unattended) on T31.  

-  Are these what we want to count as QSOs?  What about in contests
- FT8 is already infiltrating VHF contests.  Should they be considered valid
contest Qs - while you sleep?

-  I agree with Jeff and others that for people that that consider
topband a PTA to operate and/or are not CW operators - 160M looks like the
perfect place to drop a robot and go concentrate on something else.  But
isn't this a slippery slope?  What about 10M/12M since the sunspots are low.
Or 80M because the static crashes in the tropics are terrible - etc.  Before
you know it the whole DXpedition is an FT8 robot while the "crew" is
lounging about the pool with the XYL/YLs.

-  If we continue to facilitate such nonsense, they we deserve what
we get in my opinion.  If we decide that the band counter is so important we
don't care how we have to get it, then its time to look in the mirror folks.

-  On the other hand, maybe some people are happier with the
computer doing the heavy lifting of digging out the QSO.  Personally, count
me out of that list.

 

Ed  N1UR

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Hans Hjelmström]

SORRY to say. Of course everyone do what they like to do,
BUT  FT8 and ,,,no hearing QSO:s,,, will destroy our hobby.
Same for me last 6 meter season . Had a 1 hour opening on 6 meter from Florida, 
to Minnesota and California   on CWBUT made 7 QSO during 1 hour of open 
band. Most people were on FT8  making ,contacts ?  computer to computer , 
and very very
few on SSB or CW.   FT8 should be ok IF signal were minimum  minus 1 db. 
Everything below that,you can not hear…..

Sorry. Lets TRY to activate 6 meter coming season on SSB and CW as much
as we enjoy,and may be ,,, we see a change back to normal.

Kind regards

Hans SM6CVX
> 30 mar 2018 kl. 18:12 skrev Jim N7US :
> 
> I also observed the same on 6M last summer when the switch was flipped and
> FT8 replaced CW and SSB on 6M.  I've enjoyed 6M for only a few years, but I
> lost all interest, despite my 6L SteppIR and KPA500, when that happened.  
> 
> I've had a handful of FT8 QSOs early on, but I got no satisfaction using it.
> It wasn't FUN for me.
> 
> I have simple, wire antennas for 80 and 160 but I've enjoyed those bands for
> many years.  I was elated to work 3B9C on 160 from AZ in 2004 using a half
> sloper (yes, at his SR).
> 
> I also enjoy RTTY and am almost on that Honor Roll, though the RTTY DXCC was
> changed to the Digital DXCC a few years ago.  All of my contacts are on
> RTTY, with none on PSK or other digital modes, so that has lost some of its
> appeal.
> 
> I sold my 87A but still have my KPA500 while I wait for my KPA1500.  I am
> questioning whether I should buy it given the rush to FT8.
> 
> Maybe I'm a "grumpy old man" but I don't think I'll mind eventually
> downsizing with a simpler station because the hobby will have changed.  I'd
> even be OK with RHR from "the home" but I wouldn't use it for competition.
> 
> Contesting, including CWops' CWTs, is still fun, but DXing won't be the
> same.
> 
> 73, Jim N7US
> 
> -Original Message-
> 
> 
> IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas). 
> Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually
> meaningless.  The guy with a  backyard vertical, reasonable radial system,
> and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what
> has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays,
> and receive antennas.  As for the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to
> this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively 
> little skill on the part of the operators.   For me personally, it is 
> disappointing to watch it all unfold.  But unfold, it will.   73. . 
> .Dave, W0FLS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Jim N7US]

I also observed the same on 6M last summer when the switch was flipped and
FT8 replaced CW and SSB on 6M.  I've enjoyed 6M for only a few years, but I
lost all interest, despite my 6L SteppIR and KPA500, when that happened.  

I've had a handful of FT8 QSOs early on, but I got no satisfaction using it.
It wasn't FUN for me.

I have simple, wire antennas for 80 and 160 but I've enjoyed those bands for
many years.  I was elated to work 3B9C on 160 from AZ in 2004 using a half
sloper (yes, at his SR).

I also enjoy RTTY and am almost on that Honor Roll, though the RTTY DXCC was
changed to the Digital DXCC a few years ago.  All of my contacts are on
RTTY, with none on PSK or other digital modes, so that has lost some of its
appeal.

I sold my 87A but still have my KPA500 while I wait for my KPA1500.  I am
questioning whether I should buy it given the rush to FT8.

Maybe I'm a "grumpy old man" but I don't think I'll mind eventually
downsizing with a simpler station because the hobby will have changed.  I'd
even be OK with RHR from "the home" but I wouldn't use it for competition.

Contesting, including CWops' CWTs, is still fun, but DXing won't be the
same.

73, Jim N7US

-Original Message-


IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas). 
Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually
meaningless.  The guy with a  backyard vertical, reasonable radial system,
and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what
has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays,
and receive antennas.  As for the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to
this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively 
little skill on the part of the operators.   For me personally, it is 
disappointing to watch it all unfold.  But unfold, it will.   73. . 
.Dave, W0FLS






_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Tim Shoppa]

I’ve been having a lot of fun with FT8 but it certainly has not replaced CW for 
my DXing.

I do 80M-specific DX Marathon each year. So far this year I have 107 80M DXCCs 
worked - 104 on CW and 3 on SSB. And none that I needed FT8 or RTTY for.

I will agree, if a guy doesn’t do CW, FT8 is probably going to be a big part of 
his DX diet.

DXpedition rates are fun to listen to when they are doing 200+ an hour. Right 
now FT8 (non-DXpedition mode) tops out at maybe 25 an hour when there are no 
problems. The instant you have any sort of sequencing problem, the rate can 
drop to 2 an hour. The experimental FT8 DXpedition mode may alleviate (through 
parallel ongoing Qs) morning be guys sequencing problem from bringing 
everything to a halt.

Tim N3QE

> On Mar 30, 2018, at 11:10 AM,  
>  wrote:
> 
> IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas). 
> Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually 
> meaningless.  The guy with a  backyard vertical, reasonable radial system, 
> and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what 
> has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays, 
> and receive antennas.  As for the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to 
> this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively 
> little skill on the part of the operators.   For me personally, it is 
> disappointing to watch it all unfold.  But unfold, it will.   73. . 
> .Dave, W0FLS
> 
> -Original Message- From: k1zm--- via Topband
> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:50 AM
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!
> 
> Hello Gang
> I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but I 
> may be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right 
> before our eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible 
> implications going forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on.
> 
> I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current 
> dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI.  Norbert DJ7JC has been a real 
> trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so - so 
> well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert.  Norbert has managed to make quite a 
> few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very much 
> appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!
> 
> So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on 
> Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its 
> possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.
> 
> On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his 
> grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and me 
> here at VY2ZM.  Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have been 
> another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in there 
> calling among the NA stations.
> 
> About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but QRNN on 
> his side prevented a legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I know he did not 
> copy my callsign correctly - and later he even said so over ON4KST noting "I 
> heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU qso's on Topband - 
> so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up."
> 
> The next night Norbert came on ON4KST  chat and announced that he was going 
> to try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials following 
> its release by K1JT.  I am told that the dx'pedition version of FT8 will also 
> be used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition.
> 
> Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise when and if it ever is fully 
> conceived including:
> 
> 1) A shortened qso sequence using only 2 of the traditional FT8 required QSO 
> elements
> 2) The promise of simultaneous qso's between Multiple HOUNDS and the FOX (in 
> this example the FOX was 7Q7EI)
> 3) The potential, as a result, of up to 300-400 qso's per hour may be 
> possible one day - which would improve the overall qso totals of any 
> dx'pedition - IF this ever becomes REALITY.
> 
> So on night two Norbert came up on FT8 dx'pedition mode - first on 80m and I 
> managed to work him fairly quickly here at VY2ZM.
> 
> Others worked him as well - as we all struggled to learn exactly how to 
> operate this new flavor of FT8.  It is a bit tricky and I invite anyone 
> reading this who may be interested to take a look - because Dx'pedition mode 
> uses special settings within WSJT-x - and one must configure things exactly 
> right - or it just does not function as one might expect traditional FT8 to 
> function in order to complete qso's.
> 
> Nearer to his SR, Norbert went to 1836 and I think he may have worked a 
> couple of NA stations - I tried but without success because I did not pay 
> 

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[daraymond]

IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas). 
Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually 
meaningless.  The guy with a  backyard vertical, reasonable radial system, 
and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what 
has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays, 
and receive antennas.  As for the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to 
this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively 
little skill on the part of the operators.   For me personally, it is 
disappointing to watch it all unfold.  But unfold, it will.   73. . 
.Dave, W0FLS


-Original Message- 
From: k1zm--- via Topband

Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:50 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon 
us!


Hello Gang
I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but I 
may be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right 
before our eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible 
implications going forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on.


I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current 
dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI.  Norbert DJ7JC has been a real 
trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so - 
so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert.  Norbert has managed to make 
quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very much 
appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!


So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on 
Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its 
possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.


On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his 
grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and 
me here at VY2ZM.  Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have been 
another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in there 
calling among the NA stations.


About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but QRNN on 
his side prevented a legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I know he did not 
copy my callsign correctly - and later he even said so over ON4KST noting "I 
heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU qso's on 
Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up."


The next night Norbert came on ON4KST  chat and announced that he was going 
to try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials following 
its release by K1JT.  I am told that the dx'pedition version of FT8 will 
also be used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition.


Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise when and if it ever is fully 
conceived including:


1) A shortened qso sequence using only 2 of the traditional FT8 required QSO 
elements
2) The promise of simultaneous qso's between Multiple HOUNDS and the FOX (in 
this example the FOX was 7Q7EI)
3) The potential, as a result, of up to 300-400 qso's per hour may be 
possible one day - which would improve the overall qso totals of any 
dx'pedition - IF this ever becomes REALITY.


So on night two Norbert came up on FT8 dx'pedition mode - first on 80m and I 
managed to work him fairly quickly here at VY2ZM.


Others worked him as well - as we all struggled to learn exactly how to 
operate this new flavor of FT8.  It is a bit tricky and I invite anyone 
reading this who may be interested to take a look - because Dx'pedition mode 
uses special settings within WSJT-x - and one must configure things exactly 
right - or it just does not function as one might expect traditional FT8 to 
function in order to complete qso's.


Nearer to his SR, Norbert went to 1836 and I think he may have worked a 
couple of NA stations - I tried but without success because I did not pay 
close enough attention to ON4KST - and I came to 160m too late in the game 
to have a good shot as he went into daylight on his side.


So what is going on here exactly?  And why did I choose to make this post to 
Topband?


The answer is fairly simple and stems from what I observed this past summer 
on 6M during the Sporadic E season.  I happen to like to work 6M E during 
the summer and was all set around the end of June for what I hoped would be 
a great E season on 6M CW into Europe.  I worked a couple of stations on CW 
in late June but during the first or second week of July, K1JT released the 
production version of FT8 and almost immediately everyone realized its 
potential (particularly those in the Mid and Far Western USA) - where it was 
immediately called a "GAME CHANGER" by K7JA and others on the Left Coast.



Well - it SURELY WAS A GAME CHANGER - because I did not hear a single CW DX 
station out of Europe on 6M for the rest of the summer E season after that - 

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Don Greenbaum]

Clive:

We do have a 40 mtr antenna at the digital site.   I will keep that in 
mind.   Prop charts show a 1 hour window to OH/GM/ etc.


EU is a target area of our operation, hence the 24 hour 20 mtr manning of 
stations.


73
Don

At 09:46 AM 3/30/2018, Clive GM3POI wrote:

Don, seeing your trip is midsummer, you should strongly consider using FT8
for EU on 40m as to Western EU there is NO common darkness.
Otherwise the lowest band Western EU will be able to work KH1 is 30m.  73
Clive GM3POI

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Don
Greenbaum
Sent: 30 March 2018 13:27
To: k...@aol.com; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is
Upon us!

Jeff, and others:

 From K1JT on the WSJT web pages and instructions:

Please note: DXpedition Mode is not yet ready for production use. Until
WSJT-X v1.9.0 is fully released, this mode should be used only in controlled
test situations.  Please remember to send us your test results.

As one of the beta testers and one of the two stations running the next test
on 7 April (W1/KH7Z) the problem with RR73 being sent before a good
QSO is logged has been fixed.   There are other errors we ascertained in
March that are addressed in the next test.

The KH1 team has been working for close to 6 months with the WSJT developers
to make a more efficient DXpedition version of the software and the current
plans for our Baker Island DXpedition is to use FT8 as a
replacement for RTTY on 17 20 and 30 mtrs.   We will also operate RTTY to
give those who need a digital QSO but haven't migrated to FT8 yet a
shot.   We have a dedicated digital station with its own antennas.   It
should be noted, there is no 160 mtr antenna at this digital station, the
160 meter antenna developed by AA7JV is at the cw tent.  It is our intention
to use cw as the primary mode on 160.

As for 6 meters, your observations are correct.   On July 6, I worked SO1WS
on cw followed by 9K2GS in JT65.   Then FT8's new version came out and all
my e-skip dx contacts were on FT8.   The bands were empty at the low
end.   Even JT65 seemed to disappear overnight.

The past week while 160 appeared empty the FT8 frequency was full of
stations making QSOs.   I worked a good number of Europeans on FT8 never
using more than 100 watts.   Just for fun I worked 5B4AMX calling first
with 5 watts and finally snagging him with 20 watts.   A QSO on 80 mtrs
with A71AM on FT8 was accomplished on one call with 100 watts.  Yes, change
is in the air, and I hope CW remains the primary mode for DX.   BUT, it's
up to the dx isn't it?

Spark was replaced by CW.   AM by SSB.   Not without debate.

FT8 is here to stay for weak signal work.   I'm surprised to see all the
USA/USA QSOs on 160 but activity on 160 is a good thing period in my view.

Tune into 14105 on 7 June at 14:00 UTC and see what he hope is the final
test of the DXpedition WSJT software.  I'll be running W1/KH7Z.

And we hope to work as many of you from KH1 on 160 cw.   While June is not
optimal, it's the timeframe chosen by FWS and we expect to make lemonade
from lemons.

Don
N1DG
www.baker2018.net










At 07:50 AM 3/30/2018, you wrote:
>Hello Gang  I am probably not the only one who has been paying
>attention lately, but I may be the first to comment directly on what
>has been taking place right before our eyes the past two nights on
>1.836kHz - and its possible implications going forward for future
>Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on. Â  I am sure most readers of these pages
>are well aware of the current dx'pedition to Malawi operating as
>7Q7EI.  Norbert DJ7JC has been a real trooper working the lowbands and
>has had quite a bit of success doing so - so well deserved kudos &
>thanks to Norbert. Â Norbert has managed to make quite a few NA
>stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very much
>appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!    So what I
>am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on Norbert
>- it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its
>possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!. Â  On
>or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his
>grayline period
>- and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and me here at
>VY2ZM.  Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have been
>another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in
>there calling among the NA stations. Â  About 0228z, Norbert asnwered
>me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but QRNN on his side prevented a
>legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I know he did not copy my
>callsign correctly - and later he even said so over ON4KST noting "I
>heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU qso's on
>Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up." Â  The next
>night Norbert came on ON4KST Â chat and announced that he was going to
>try 1836 using the new 

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Clive GM3POI]

Don, seeing your trip is midsummer, you should strongly consider using FT8
for EU on 40m as to Western EU there is NO common darkness.
Otherwise the lowest band Western EU will be able to work KH1 is 30m.  73
Clive GM3POI 

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Don
Greenbaum
Sent: 30 March 2018 13:27
To: k...@aol.com; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is
Upon us!

Jeff, and others:

 From K1JT on the WSJT web pages and instructions:

Please note: DXpedition Mode is not yet ready for production use. Until
WSJT-X v1.9.0 is fully released, this mode should be used only in controlled
test situations.  Please remember to send us your test results.

As one of the beta testers and one of the two stations running the next test
on 7 April (W1/KH7Z) the problem with RR73 being sent before a good 
QSO is logged has been fixed.   There are other errors we ascertained in 
March that are addressed in the next test.

The KH1 team has been working for close to 6 months with the WSJT developers
to make a more efficient DXpedition version of the software and the current
plans for our Baker Island DXpedition is to use FT8 as a 
replacement for RTTY on 17 20 and 30 mtrs.   We will also operate RTTY to 
give those who need a digital QSO but haven't migrated to FT8 yet a 
shot.   We have a dedicated digital station with its own antennas.   It 
should be noted, there is no 160 mtr antenna at this digital station, the
160 meter antenna developed by AA7JV is at the cw tent.  It is our intention
to use cw as the primary mode on 160.

As for 6 meters, your observations are correct.   On July 6, I worked SO1WS 
on cw followed by 9K2GS in JT65.   Then FT8's new version came out and all 
my e-skip dx contacts were on FT8.   The bands were empty at the low 
end.   Even JT65 seemed to disappear overnight.

The past week while 160 appeared empty the FT8 frequency was full of 
stations making QSOs.   I worked a good number of Europeans on FT8 never 
using more than 100 watts.   Just for fun I worked 5B4AMX calling first 
with 5 watts and finally snagging him with 20 watts.   A QSO on 80 mtrs 
with A71AM on FT8 was accomplished on one call with 100 watts.  Yes, change 
is in the air, and I hope CW remains the primary mode for DX.   BUT, it's 
up to the dx isn't it?

Spark was replaced by CW.   AM by SSB.   Not without debate.

FT8 is here to stay for weak signal work.   I'm surprised to see all the 
USA/USA QSOs on 160 but activity on 160 is a good thing period in my view.

Tune into 14105 on 7 June at 14:00 UTC and see what he hope is the final
test of the DXpedition WSJT software.  I'll be running W1/KH7Z.

And we hope to work as many of you from KH1 on 160 cw.   While June is not 
optimal, it's the timeframe chosen by FWS and we expect to make lemonade
from lemons.

Don
N1DG
www.baker2018.net










At 07:50 AM 3/30/2018, you wrote:
>Hello Gang  I am probably not the only one who has been paying 
>attention lately, but I may be the first to comment directly on what 
>has been taking place right before our eyes the past two nights on 
>1.836kHz - and its possible implications going forward for future 
>Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on. Â  I am sure most readers of these pages 
>are well aware of the current dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 
>7Q7EI.  Norbert DJ7JC has been a real trooper working the lowbands and 
>has had quite a bit of success doing so - so well deserved kudos & 
>thanks to Norbert. Â Norbert has managed to make quite a few NA 
>stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very much 
>appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!    So what I 
>am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on Norbert
>- it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its 
>possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!. Â  On 
>or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his 
>grayline period
>- and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and me here at 
>VY2ZM.  Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have been 
>another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in 
>there calling among the NA stations. Â  About 0228z, Norbert asnwered 
>me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but QRNN on his side prevented a 
>legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I know he did not copy my 
>callsign correctly - and later he even said so over ON4KST noting "I 
>heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU qso's on 
>Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up." Â  The next 
>night Norbert came on ON4KST Â chat and announced that he was going to 
>try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials 
>following its release by K1JT.  I am told that the dx'pedition version 
>of FT8 will also be used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 
>Dx'pedition. Â  Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique 

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Don Greenbaum]

Jeff, and others:

From K1JT on the WSJT web pages and instructions:

Please note: DXpedition Mode is not yet ready for production use. Until 
WSJT-X v1.9.0 is fully released, this mode should be used only in 
controlled test situations.  Please remember to send us your test results.


As one of the beta testers and one of the two stations running the next 
test on 7 April (W1/KH7Z) the problem with RR73 being sent before a good 
QSO is logged has been fixed.   There are other errors we ascertained in 
March that are addressed in the next test.


The KH1 team has been working for close to 6 months with the WSJT 
developers to make a more efficient DXpedition version of the software and 
the current plans for our Baker Island DXpedition is to use FT8 as a 
replacement for RTTY on 17 20 and 30 mtrs.   We will also operate RTTY to 
give those who need a digital QSO but haven't migrated to FT8 yet a 
shot.   We have a dedicated digital station with its own antennas.   It 
should be noted, there is no 160 mtr antenna at this digital station, the 
160 meter antenna developed by AA7JV is at the cw tent.  It is our 
intention to use cw as the primary mode on 160.


As for 6 meters, your observations are correct.   On July 6, I worked SO1WS 
on cw followed by 9K2GS in JT65.   Then FT8's new version came out and all 
my e-skip dx contacts were on FT8.   The bands were empty at the low 
end.   Even JT65 seemed to disappear overnight.


The past week while 160 appeared empty the FT8 frequency was full of 
stations making QSOs.   I worked a good number of Europeans on FT8 never 
using more than 100 watts.   Just for fun I worked 5B4AMX calling first 
with 5 watts and finally snagging him with 20 watts.   A QSO on 80 mtrs 
with A71AM on FT8 was accomplished on one call with 100 watts.  Yes, change 
is in the air, and I hope CW remains the primary mode for DX.   BUT, it's 
up to the dx isn't it?


Spark was replaced by CW.   AM by SSB.   Not without debate.

FT8 is here to stay for weak signal work.   I'm surprised to see all the 
USA/USA QSOs on 160 but activity on 160 is a good thing period in my view.


Tune into 14105 on 7 June at 14:00 UTC and see what he hope is the final 
test of the DXpedition WSJT software.  I'll be running W1/KH7Z.


And we hope to work as many of you from KH1 on 160 cw.   While June is not 
optimal, it's the timeframe chosen by FWS and we expect to make lemonade 
from lemons.


Don
N1DG
www.baker2018.net










At 07:50 AM 3/30/2018, you wrote:
Hello Gang  I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention 
lately, but I may be the first to comment directly on what has been taking 
place right before our eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its 
possible implications going forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read 
on. Â  I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current 
dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI.  Norbert DJ7JC has been a real 
trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so - 
so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert. Â Norbert has managed to make 
quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very 
much appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!    So what 
I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on Norbert 
- it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its possible 
implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!. Â  On or about 27 
March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his grayline period 
- and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and me here at 
VY2ZM.  Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have been another 
and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in there calling 
among the NA stations. Â  About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went 
QRZ a few times but QRNN on his side prevented a legitimate qso.  I heard 
him fine but I know he did not copy my callsign correctly - and later he 
even said so over ON4KST noting "I heard a few callers, mainly from EU but 
logged no NA or EU qso's on Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun 
came up." Â  The next night Norbert came on ON4KST Â chat and announced 
that he was going to try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in 
beta trials following its release by K1JT.  I am told that the 
dx'pedition version of FT8 will also be used experimentally by the 
upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition. Â  Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise 
when and if it ever is fully conceived including: Â  1) A shortened qso 
sequence using only 2 of the traditional FT8 required QSO elements 2) The 
promise of simultaneous qso's between Multiple HOUNDS and the FOX (in this 
example the FOX was 7Q7EI) 3) The potential, as a result, of up to 300-400 
qso's per hour may be possible one day - which would improve the overall 
qso totals of any dx'pedition - IF this ever becomes REALITY. Â  So on 
night two Norbert came up on FT8 dx'pedition 

Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[k1zm--- via Topband]

Hello Gang 
I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but I may 
be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right before our 
eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible implications going 
forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on.
 
I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current dx'pedition 
to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI.  Norbert DJ7JC has been a real trooper working 
the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so - so well deserved 
kudos & thanks to Norbert.  Norbert has managed to make quite a few NA stations 
happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very much appreciate his efforts - 
well done Norbert - thank you! 
 
So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on 
Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its 
possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.
 
On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his 
grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and me 
here at VY2ZM.  Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have been 
another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in there calling 
among the NA stations.
 
About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but QRNN on 
his side prevented a legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I know he did not 
copy my callsign correctly - and later he even said so over ON4KST noting "I 
heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU qso's on Topband - 
so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up."
 
The next night Norbert came on ON4KST  chat and announced that he was going to 
try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials following its 
release by K1JT.  I am told that the dx'pedition version of FT8 will also be 
used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition.
 
Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise when and if it ever is fully 
conceived including:
 
1) A shortened qso sequence using only 2 of the traditional FT8 required QSO 
elements
2) The promise of simultaneous qso's between Multiple HOUNDS and the FOX (in 
this example the FOX was 7Q7EI)
3) The potential, as a result, of up to 300-400 qso's per hour may be possible 
one day - which would improve the overall qso totals of any dx'pedition - IF 
this ever becomes REALITY.
 
So on night two Norbert came up on FT8 dx'pedition mode - first on 80m and I 
managed to work him fairly quickly here at VY2ZM.
 
Others worked him as well - as we all struggled to learn exactly how to operate 
this new flavor of FT8.  It is a bit tricky and I invite anyone reading this 
who may be interested to take a look - because Dx'pedition mode uses special 
settings within WSJT-x - and one must configure things exactly right - or it 
just does not function as one might expect traditional FT8 to function in order 
to complete qso's.
 
Nearer to his SR, Norbert went to 1836 and I think he may have worked a couple 
of NA stations - I tried but without success because I did not pay close enough 
attention to ON4KST - and I came to 160m too late in the game to have a good 
shot as he went into daylight on his side.
 
So what is going on here exactly?  And why did I choose to make this post to 
Topband?
 
The answer is fairly simple and stems from what I observed this past summer on 
6M during the Sporadic E season.  I happen to like to work 6M E during the 
summer and was all set around the end of June for what I hoped would be a great 
E season on 6M CW into Europe.  I worked a couple of stations on CW in late 
June but during the first or second week of July, K1JT released the production 
version of FT8 and almost immediately everyone realized its potential 
(particularly those in the Mid and Far Western USA) - where it was immediately 
called a "GAME CHANGER" by K7JA and others on the Left Coast.


Well - it SURELY WAS A GAME CHANGER - because I did not hear a single CW DX 
station out of Europe on 6M for the rest of the summer E season after that - 
everyone had qsy'ed to 50.313 to work FT8 - because it WORKED so well on 6M - 
even on E skip paths.  And since I did not have FT8 capability - I was TOTALLY 
SHUT OUT and had NO 6M E season of Dx'ing - BUMMER!


So how does this apply to Topband?  Pls read on.


Last night was NIGHT 3 into NA on the lowbands from 7Q7EI - and Norbert was 
back - first on 160m on 1836 from about 0130z - until around 0320z - again on 
FT8 - in dx'pedition mode.  By now, most of us had downloaded the dx'pedition 
mode version of WSJT-x and had sort of figured out how to do the parameter 
settings correctly - so quite a few QSO's ensued.


I happened to be one of the lucky ones on 160M - there were quite a few others.


Watching my screen though (along with KAZ K8KS) it was clear that K1JT still 
has some clean up work to do to refine the dx'pedition mode software - because 
the promise of 300 qso's per