Re: Topband: Straws in the wind, continued or, "Where's the DX?" (Epilogue)

[Joel Harrison]

As a 160 meter DX'er who is also active on EME, a similar debate of the
virtues of CW -vs- JT65 (The CW competitor mode at that time) raged rather
violently within the community a few years ago. So much so that long time
ham friends stopped talking to each other even to this day. That was a
very sad outcome.

As someone who has a very heavy preference toward and love of CW I just
hope our current debate of CW -vs- FT8 on 160 meters doesn't migrate to
that level.

In regards to operating awards, especially DXCC, the same comments were
made then pertaining to ARRL creating new awards specifically for these
and it never happened and frankly won't happen now either. There already
exists a CW only DXCC award and there is a single band 160 meter DXCC
awards as well that can accommodate those who do not wish to be included
in the "Mixed" award.

I'm pleased that Jeff ZM initiated this thread and I'm very pleased to see
it continue in a civil manner. I just simply want to encourage everyone to
keep it on that level and please don't migrate down the path of the EME
community. The outcome there was, interestingly, very positive. There are
more stations active on EME now than ever before and regardless of the
mode of preference it afforded the new folks the opportunity to become
active and learn about so many different things pertaining to EME, VHF DX
and propagation. That in itself was a big plus!

73 Joel W5ZN



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the wind, continued or, "Where's the DX?" (Epilogue)

[donovanf]

If we could turn the clock back to the 1950s we'd hear exactly 
the same arguments from the AM DXers. 


If we turned the clock back to the early 1920s with the discovery 
of 40 and 20 meter DX you'd hear the same arguments from the 
200 meter operators. 


The clock is not going to turn back 


Life goes on. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "k1zm--- via Topband"  
To: sawye...@earthlink.net, topband@contesting.com 
Sent: Monday, April 2, 2018 12:27:08 PM 
Subject: Re: Topband: Straws in the wind, continued or, "Where's the DX?" 
(Epilogue) 

Thanks Ed. 

Yes, it is clear that you "GET IT" - meaning the original point of my message - 
so many others seemingly did NOT - HI. But that's okay because it created a lot 
of interest and discussion on this topic - so in the end - it was useful I 
think. 

It will be interesting to see what happens to 160m on future dx'peditions (say 
2019 and beyond) when the Dxpedition mode of FT8 is perfected. 

I can easily see that CW will get less AIR TIME on 160M on future dx'peditions 
and some of it at least will now become FT8 AIR TIME. It is almost a NO BRAINER 
to see how that could be the likely outcome. Norbert at 7Q7EI elected his last 
two nights to stay on FT8 because his QRNN level made CW impossible - I think 
he truly wanted to accomodate those on 160M whom he had not yet worked - but 
had no choice but to elect to remain on Ft8 - because there he had a fighting 
chance to decode some NA signals - on CW he clearly did not. 

Up until now - CW has been the almost total AIR TIME mode of choice on 160M for 
any dx'pedition - usually ZERO SSB air time was seen and very little (if any) 
RTTY or PSK operation on 160M has been seen. 

I do really expect there will be a transition coming - just listen to 1840 
every night versus traditional CW - it is happening even now - WITHOUT the 
perfection of dxpedition mode FT8. Guys will gravitate to WHAT WORKS - if you 
do not believe that statement, again, just listen to the amount of signals on 
1840 on a given night versus what you hear down on CW! (When even W8LRL is up 
on 1840 every night - you gotta start believing!! HI HI) 

73 and thanks guys for all the good back on forth on this topic. And good 
dx'ing to all on whatever mode works out best for you as you pursue your Dx'ing 
interests on Topband! 

JEFF K1ZM/VY2ZM 

Time will tell - STAY TUNED! 

73 JEFF 

In a message dated 2018-04-02 8:28:34 AM Atlantic Standard Time, 
sawye...@earthlink.net writes: 


KA1J stated 



"this is a licensed sport, I see it in some ways like fishing which is also 
a licensed sport; some catch and keep, some catch and release, some pay big 
bucks to fly to way out of the way places that most can't afford to do, to 
get the big fish, some fish the docks. Some like to go on Charter boats, 
some fish off the shore. Some get famous for fishing (River Monsters) and 
others compete in an even field to see whose skill is better. Some use a 
trot line, some use nets, some spear, some remove the barbs from the hooks, 
some try to get their families involved and some go fishing to get away from 
their families, and so on, and so on. 



Each of us has our idea of what Ham Radio should be. Some keep it to 
themselves, some feel the need to vent but one thing is for sure, we like 
finding other hams that think as we do. Some of us feel if someone sees 
things differently, then they are some kind of threat to what we hold 
sacred, anything negative in the woodpile is the beginning of the end. 



To me, each of us is competing against 

ourselves and anything else is like 

spitting into the wind. If I spent every penny I own on ham equipment, there 
will be so many more that have far more money than that available as chump 
change. Any contest I enter, no matter how well I did, someone in my call 
area could have done better if they had better location, equipment or time 
into it. All I can do is compete against me and then it is fun. 



If someone uses CW and hates FT8 or RTTY, whatever the mode and I use FT8, 
we're not competing against each other, but some see it as a threat to what 
they see as the brass ring. All my antennas are wire, how can I compete with 
stacked monobanders? My 

160 is a sloper and at max, 50' tall, how can I compete with a full size 4 
Square or better? I can't. Nor do I find any value in comparing what I have 
to do to make a Q compared to what they have to do to make the same contact. 
I'm happy for them, they're having fun and so am I so everyone wins. 



DXCC, I need one more for Honor Roll. It's my game against me, not me 
against some station that makes contacts easier than me. In that light; It's 
futile to complain about a mode someone else uses in getting the same award 
because its easier for them not doing it my way. Their award has a value to 
them and it's not up to me or within my power to assign worth just because I 
don't like their mode. 



I 

Re: Topband: Straws in the wind, continued or, "Where's the DX?"

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 4/2/2018 7:25 AM, Ed Sawyer wrote:


It looks to me like VHF contesting is about to be decimated for the
CW/SSB op in favor of robots working each other on FT8. I am glad I
am not into VHF contesting.

FT8 is not "robots working each other."  Anyone who has used Joe
Taylor's software can tell you it is not fully automated as the
user needs to initiate the call/select the station to be called
and make the decision if the contact is complete.  At its core, that
is no different than selecting a CW or SSB signal on a panadapter,
"pushing the button" on a CW or Voice memory keyer and deciding if
the other station actually replied to you.

Yes, some individuals have used macro programming languages to further
"automate" FT8 QSOs just as some individuals have used programming to
automate CW and/or RTTY QSOs.  Still, FT8 is no different than the
typical "5NN 73" or "TU 5NN" DX "QSO".

The only real difference is that the software does a much better job of
filtering (selectivity) while the protocol takes advantage of both error
correction and data redundancy (transmitting the same data multiple
times) to improve the overall sensitivity.  If you like, FT8 (as well
as JT65 and JT9) build much of the benefit of low noise receive antennas
into the protocol.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


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Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the wind, continued or, "Where's the DX?" (Epilogue)

[k1zm--- via Topband]

Thanks Ed.
 
Yes, it is clear that you "GET IT" - meaning the original point of my message - 
so many others seemingly did NOT - HI.  But that's okay because it created a 
lot of interest and discussion on this topic - so in the end - it was useful I 
think.
 
It will be interesting to see what happens to 160m on future dx'peditions (say 
2019 and beyond) when the Dxpedition mode of FT8 is perfected.
 
I can easily see that CW will get less AIR TIME on 160M on future dx'peditions 
and some of it at least will now become FT8 AIR TIME.  It is almost a NO 
BRAINER to see how that could be the likely outcome. Norbert at 7Q7EI elected 
his last two nights to stay on FT8 because his QRNN level made CW impossible - 
I think he truly wanted to accomodate those on 160M whom he had not yet worked 
- but had no choice but to elect to remain on Ft8 - because there he had a 
fighting chance to decode some NA signals - on CW he clearly did not.
 
Up until now - CW has been the almost total AIR TIME mode of choice on 160M for 
any dx'pedition - usually ZERO SSB air time was seen and very little (if any) 
RTTY or PSK operation on 160M has been seen.
 
I do really expect there will be a transition coming - just listen to 1840 
every night versus traditional CW - it is happening even now - WITHOUT the 
perfection of dxpedition mode FT8.  Guys will gravitate to WHAT WORKS - if you 
do not believe that statement, again, just listen to the amount of signals on 
1840 on a given night versus what you hear down on CW!  (When even W8LRL is up 
on 1840 every night - you gotta start believing!!  HI HI)
 
73 and thanks guys for all the good back on forth on this topic. And good 
dx'ing to all on whatever mode works out best for you as you pursue your Dx'ing 
interests on Topband!
 
JEFF   K1ZM/VY2ZM
 
Time will tell - STAY TUNED!
 
73 JEFF
 
In a message dated 2018-04-02 8:28:34 AM Atlantic Standard Time, 
sawye...@earthlink.net writes:

 
 KA1J stated



"this is a licensed sport, I see it in some ways like fishing which is also
a licensed sport; some catch and keep, some catch and release, some pay big
bucks to fly to way out of the way places that most can't afford to do, to
get the big fish, some fish the docks. Some like to go on Charter boats,
some fish off the shore. Some get famous for fishing (River Monsters) and
others compete in an even field to see whose skill is better. Some use a
trot line, some use nets, some spear, some remove the barbs from the hooks,
some try to get their families involved and some go fishing to get away from
their families, and so on, and so on.



Each of us has our idea of what Ham Radio should be. Some keep it to
themselves, some feel the need to vent but one thing is for sure, we like
finding other hams that think as we do. Some of us feel if someone sees
things differently, then they are some kind of threat to what we hold
sacred, anything negative in the woodpile is the beginning of the end.



To me, each of us is competing against

ourselves and anything else is like

spitting into the wind. If I spent every penny I own on ham equipment, there
will be so many more that have far more money than that available as chump
change. Any contest I enter, no matter how well I did, someone in my call
area could have done better if they had better location, equipment or time
into it. All I can do is compete against me and then it is fun.



If someone uses CW and hates FT8 or RTTY, whatever the mode and I use FT8,
we're not competing against each other, but some see it as a threat to what
they see as the brass ring. All my antennas are wire, how can I compete with
stacked monobanders? My

160 is a sloper and at max, 50' tall, how can I compete with a full size 4
Square or better? I can't. Nor do I find any value in comparing what I have
to do to make a Q compared to what they have to do to make the same contact.
I'm happy for them, they're having fun and so am I so everyone wins. 



DXCC, I need one more for Honor Roll. It's my game against me, not me
against some station that makes contacts easier than me. In that light; It's
futile to complain about a mode someone else uses in getting the same award
because its easier for them not doing it my way. Their award has a value to
them and it's not up to me or within my power to assign worth just because I
don't like their mode. 



I personally prefer CW, enjoy RTTY but

RTTY is to me pretty much like FT8. One can argue that RTTY with N1MM+,
MMTTY and a pan-adapter still require some playing with to make the Q but if
the software were out there to do it as automatically as FT8 and make
quicker Q's... you can bet your bottom dollar it would be the new contest
mode the moment it's released.



Bottom line is: If it is a popular mode it is not going away and nobody
disliking it will make any difference in the final outcome."



 



This was not the original point of Jeff's (VY2ZM) post actually. The point
was that the DX to be worked was no 

Re: Topband: Straws in the wind, continued or, "Where's the DX?"

[Ed Sawyer]

KA1J  stated

 

"this is a licensed sport, I see it in some ways like fishing which is also
a licensed sport; some catch and keep, some catch and release, some pay big
bucks to fly to way out of the way places that most can't afford to do, to
get the big fish, some fish the docks. Some like to go on Charter boats,
some fish off the shore. Some get famous for fishing (River Monsters) and
others compete in an even field to see whose skill is better. Some use a
trot line, some use nets, some spear, some remove the barbs from the hooks,
some try to get their families involved and some go fishing to get away from
their families, and so on, and so on.

 

Each of us has our idea of what Ham Radio should be. Some keep it to
themselves, some feel the need to vent but one thing is for sure, we like
finding other hams that think as we do. Some of us feel if someone sees
things differently, then they are some kind of threat to what we hold
sacred, anything negative in the woodpile is the beginning of the end.

 

To me, each of us is competing against

ourselves and anything else is like

spitting into the wind. If I spent every penny I own on ham equipment, there
will be so many more that have far more money than that available as chump
change. Any contest I enter, no matter how well I did, someone in my call
area could have done better if they had better location, equipment or time
into it. All I can do is compete against me and then it is fun.

 

If someone uses CW and hates FT8 or RTTY, whatever the mode and I use FT8,
we're not competing against each other, but some see it as a threat to what
they see as the brass ring. All my antennas are wire, how can I compete with
stacked monobanders? My

160 is a sloper and at max, 50' tall, how can I compete with a full size 4
Square or better? I can't. Nor do I find any value in comparing what I have
to do to make a Q compared to what they have to do to make the same contact.
I'm happy for them, they're having fun and so am I so everyone wins. 

 

DXCC, I need one more for Honor Roll. It's my game against me, not me
against some station that makes contacts easier than me. In that light; It's
futile to complain about a mode someone else uses in getting the same award
because its easier for them not doing it my way. Their award has a value to
them and it's not up to me or within my power to assign worth just because I
don't like their mode. 

 

I personally prefer CW, enjoy RTTY but

RTTY is to me pretty much like FT8. One can argue that RTTY with N1MM+,
MMTTY and a pan-adapter still require some playing with to make the Q but if
the software were out there to do it as automatically as FT8 and make
quicker Q's... you can bet your bottom dollar it would be the new contest
mode the moment it's released.

 

Bottom line is: If it is a popular mode it is not going away and nobody
disliking it will make any difference in the final outcome."

 

   

 

This was not the original point of Jeff's (VY2ZM) post actually.  The point
was that the DX to be worked was no longer available because they were on
FT8.  So its not a matter of preference, it's a matter of is the DX even
there to be worked on the mode you desire.  Specific to fringe bands like
160M and 10M and 6M, I can see this becoming a problem on DXpeditions if
there is not an "expert on the team" that enjoys those bands.  Plus if you
are trying to "make big numbers" it could be more Q productive to have the
robot working 160, 10, and 6 and have the human operators work the other
bands.

 

It looks to me like VHF contesting is about to be decimated for the CW/SSB
op in favor of robots working each other on FT8.  I am glad I am not into
VHF contesting.

 

So a personal choice is one thing.  But having the choice removed is
another.

 

My original point was that if those (like me) don't like the trend, we
should make choices not to join it, otherwise we shouldn't be surprised if
the trend continues.

 

73

 

Ed  N1UR

 

 

 

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the wind, continued or, "Where's the DX?"

[Martin Kratoska]

Disagreed!

A mode is matter of person, not software.

73,
Martin, OK1RR

Dne 2.4.2018 v 01:42 Joe Subich, W4TV napsal(a):


On 4/1/2018 6:01 PM, cqtestk4xs--- via Topband wrote:


Every mode other than FT-8 requires a person to tune in a station
and to take part in the contact.


1) FT8 also requires a person to tune in the station and take part
    in the contact *UNLESS* one has programmed additional software
    to automate the contact.

2) There are plenty of other modes - including CW and RTTY - that
    can be automated with the appropriate scripting software and
    encoding/decoding software.  Both can take a feed from CW/RTTY
    Skimmer to "tune the band" looking for CQ calls, use off the
    shelf scripting software to tune the transceiver to frequency
    and call until receiving a response and report.

*DON'T* paint any mode as "bad" until you understand it and know
what is possible using available software for other modes.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 4/1/2018 6:01 PM, cqtestk4xs--- via Topband wrote:

My two cents...


I've got no problem with advances in technology, but I chose to use 
what I want to use...and it ain't FT-8.  Every mode other than FT-8 
requires a person to tune in a station and to take part in the 
contact.  The idea of being able to take a nap and make QSOs while my 
computer is talking to yours leaves me cold.  I understand the use for 
weak signal work, but if I can't "hear" him, I didn't make the Q, my 
computer did.



If that's your idea of fun, go to it.  I'll stick to more buggy and 
whip stuff...like busting pileups or running a 250 hour.  Things that 
require operating technique skill  of a human being.



Bill KH7XS/K4XS




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_
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Re: Topband: Straws in the wind, continued or, "Where's the DX?"

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 4/1/2018 6:01 PM, cqtestk4xs--- via Topband wrote:


Every mode other than FT-8 requires a person to tune in a station
and to take part in the contact.


1) FT8 also requires a person to tune in the station and take part
   in the contact *UNLESS* one has programmed additional software
   to automate the contact.

2) There are plenty of other modes - including CW and RTTY - that
   can be automated with the appropriate scripting software and
   encoding/decoding software.  Both can take a feed from CW/RTTY
   Skimmer to "tune the band" looking for CQ calls, use off the
   shelf scripting software to tune the transceiver to frequency
   and call until receiving a response and report.

*DON'T* paint any mode as "bad" until you understand it and know
what is possible using available software for other modes.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 4/1/2018 6:01 PM, cqtestk4xs--- via Topband wrote:

My two cents...


I've got no problem with advances in technology, but I chose to use what I want to 
use...and it ain't FT-8.  Every mode other than FT-8 requires a person to tune in a 
station and to take part in the contact.  The idea of being able to take a nap and make 
QSOs while my computer is talking to yours leaves me cold.  I understand the use for weak 
signal work, but if I can't "hear" him, I didn't make the Q, my computer did.


If that's your idea of fun, go to it.  I'll stick to more buggy and whip 
stuff...like busting pileups or running a 250 hour.  Things that require 
operating technique skill  of a human being.


Bill KH7XS/K4XS




_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
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Re: Topband: Straws in the wind, continued or, "Where's the DX?"

[Gary Smith]

My 2 cents (& my 2 cents are surely worth 
more to me than anyone else).

this is a licensed sport, I see it in some 
ways like fishing which is also a licensed 
sport; some catch and keep, some catch and 
release, some pay big bucks to fly to way 
out of the way places that most can't 
afford to do, to get the big fish, some 
fish the docks. Some like to go on Charter 
boats, some fish off the shore. Some get 
famous for fishing (River Monsters) and 
others compete in an even field to see 
whose skill is better. Some use a trot 
line, some use nets, some spear, some 
remove the barbs from the hooks, some try 
to get their families involved and some go 
fishing to get away from their families, 
and so on, and so on.

Each of us has our idea of what Ham Radio 
should be. Some keep it to themselves, 
some feel the need to vent but one thing 
is for sure, we like finding other hams 
that think as we do. Some of us feel if 
someone sees things differently, then they 
are some kind of threat to what we hold 
sacred, anything negative in the woodpile 
is the beginning of the end.

To me, each of us is competing against 
ourselves and anything else is like 
spitting into the wind. If I spent every 
penny I own on ham equipment, there will 
be so many more that have far more money 
than that available as chump change. Any 
contest I enter, no matter how well I did, 
someone in my call area could have done 
better if they had better location, 
equipment or time into it. All I can do is 
compete against me and then it is fun.

If someone uses CW and hates FT8 or RTTY, 
whatever the mode and I use FT8, we're not 
competing against each other, but some see 
it as a threat to what they see as the 
brass ring. All my antennas are wire, how 
can I compete with stacked monobanders? My 
160 is a sloper and at max, 50' tall, how 
can I compete with a full size 4 Square or 
better? I can't. Nor do I find any value 
in comparing what I have to do to make a Q 
compared to what they have to do to make 
the same contact. I'm happy for them, 
they're having fun and so am I so everyone 
wins. 

DXCC, I need one more for Honor Roll. It's 
my game against me, not me against some 
station that makes contacts easier than 
me. In that light; It's futile to complain 
about a mode someone else uses in getting 
the same award because its easier for them 
not doing it my way. Their award has a 
value to them and it's not up to me or 
within my power to assign worth just 
because I don't like their mode. 

I personally prefer CW, enjoy RTTY but 
RTTY is to me pretty much like FT8. One 
can argue that RTTY with N1MM+, MMTTY and 
a pan-adapter still require some playing 
with to make the Q but if the software 
were out there to do it as automatically 
as FT8 and make quicker Q's... you can bet 
your bottom dollar it would be the new 
contest mode the moment it's released.

Bottom line is: If it is a popular mode it 
is not going away and nobody disliking it 
will make any difference in the final 
outcome. 

See, my 2 cents is worth more to me than 
anyone else. ;)

Good DX & 73,

Gary
KA1J

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the wind, continued or, "Where's the DX?"

[cqtestk4xs--- via Topband]

My two cents...


I've got no problem with advances in technology, but I chose to use what I want 
to use...and it ain't FT-8.  Every mode other than FT-8 requires a person to 
tune in a station and to take part in the contact.  The idea of being able to 
take a nap and make QSOs while my computer is talking to yours leaves me cold.  
I understand the use for weak signal work, but if I can't "hear" him, I didn't 
make the Q, my computer did.


If that's your idea of fun, go to it.  I'll stick to more buggy and whip 
stuff...like busting pileups or running a 250 hour.  Things that require 
operating technique skill  of a human being.


Bill KH7XS/K4XS




_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the wind, continued or, "Where's the DX?"

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

I spent most of my career in the TV broadcast industry - starting when
studio cameras were 500# beasts and the recording methods of they day
were film and 2" videotape and ending when the industry had transitioned
to digital with hard drive/memory card storage and non-linear editing.

My wife's grandfather was an early TV experimenter and received some of
the early transatlantic *mechanical* TV (scanning disk) signals - I
even have letters he received from Baird and others of the time.

I would never think of "making TV" using my grandfather-in-law's
mechanical video equipment or even the old film/quadruplex video tape
just because it is "harder" than the modern tools.  Yes, it took more
skill but the results were inferior to modern technology.

It's the same with spark -> CW -> AM -> SSB -> RTTY -> JT65/JT9/FT8.
Still, there is nothing preventing any amateur from using any mode
except spark (perhaps AM should be treated the same as bandwidth wasting
spark) if that's his "thing".  I'll certainly keep up with DX on CW,
and SSB, and RTTY but I'm not going to miss out if the DX is there to
be worked on FT8 or JT65 or JT9 or any other new, more efficient mode.

I feel truly sorry for for those still driving a horse and buggy when
the world is whipping past in their electric powered automobiles.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 4/1/2018 9:20 AM, Jeff Blaine wrote:

There is good and bad with the FT8.


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Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the wind, continued or, "Where's the DX?"

[John Harden, D.M.D.]

Nice opening to VK this morning from Atlanta after SR.

Luke was equally strong on Hi Z 8 and Waller Flag at 95 ft.

73,

John, W4NU

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 1, 2018, at 11:21 AM, Brian Pease  wrote:
> 
> In my experience (sine 1957) casual CW DX contacts have nearly always been 
> RST, QTH, Name, and for a long QSO maybe Rig.  A memory keyer can do most of 
> TX, and nowadays there are fairly good CW decoders.  Not much different from 
> other digital modes.
> It seems to me that most of the thrill of DX is when the DX first returns 
> your call.  Soon you are ready to move on to another conquest.
> Contacts between friends are an entirely different matter.
> 
>> On 4/1/2018 9:20 AM, Jeff Blaine wrote:
>> There is good and bad with the FT8.
>> 
>> The good is that it is bringing guys into the HF DX realm who never got 
>> active in DX because for whatever reason they felt they did not have a good 
>> DX station.  The bad is that the focus on RTTY (my favorite mode) has become 
>> less especially for DXpeditions in favor of the idea of FT8.  The logic 
>> behind these varies with the guy - but I think after the excitement and 
>> shine of FT8 wears off, the net will be still more total participants in HF. 
>>  That's got to be a good thing.
>> 
>> I don't feel bad for the dxpedition community especially wanting to promote 
>> FT8 over RTTY.  Working a RTTY pileup on the dxpedition end can result in 
>> pathetic rates and there has been no effort to promote a multi-slot skimmer 
>> type of software package that would make RTTY pileup into the high rate that 
>> is possible.  Along comes FT8 with the promise to do just that in an 
>> upcoming package so I view the dxpedition guys moving to FT8 as a logical 
>> choice over RTTY simply because it will end up having a higher rate than 
>> what most RTTY runs end up being.  I don't run FT8 at the moment but if a 
>> dxpedition is only running FT8 for the digital slot, I guess I will run it.  
>> The genie is out of the bottle there.
>> 
>> It would certainly help if the ARRL especially had not homogenize the RTTY 
>> and all other digital modes into one for the purpose of the DXCC.  Why not 
>> issue separate certificates for each popular mode and benefit from the fees 
>> that would bring to the ARRL?  That would also make a lot of guys who have 
>> worked their life's for the RTTY DXCC count not feel as if the 
>> accomplishment is being diluted by FT8 and the other ether-modes.  But the 
>> ARRL's decisions more and more defy logic so I suppose that's a topic for 
>> another day.
>> 
>> But for contesting and rag chewing and DX, I'm in the camp as the other 
>> traditionalists are - the op on the end talking into the mic, slapping the 
>> paddle or typing to try to keep up with the RTTY feed is what a real QSO is 
>> about.  FT8 does result in a technical QSO but I'm not sure where the 
>> sustained enjoyment in that mode is beyond making the contact.
>> 
>> 73/jeff/ac0c
>> alpha-charlie-zero-charlie
>> www.ac0c.com
>> 
>>> On 01-Apr-18 7:49 PM, Stan Stockton wrote:
>>> Some questions in my mind.
>>> 
>>> How important is RF in the evolution of amateur radio? Would those who 
>>> operate using FT8 be a lot less interested if it were just computers 
>>> linking them with others without transmitted RF? How about operator 
>>> involvement or skill?
>>> 
>>> How important is it that hams retain 4 MHz of spectrum on 6m or other bands 
>>> if most everyone has abandoned CW and SSB?
>>> 
>>> Is there some sense of achievement when there is so much headroom in power 
>>> alone that another 3 dB or even another 20 dB is so easy to achieve?
>>> 
>>> About 50% of my enjoyment of the hobby is thinking, many hours of every 
>>> day, about how to somehow achieve another dB on some band or another with a 
>>> better antenna.  After about 50 hours of modeling I am now drilling tubing 
>>> to make what I hope will be a great pair of tribanders to take to ZF9CW 
>>> location.  One person's total waste of time is another's passion.
>>> 
>>> To each his own, but for the long term future of what has provided so many 
>>> of us with a lifetime of enjoyment, woe is me.
>>> 
>>> 73... Stan, K5GO
>>> _
>>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>> 
>> 
>> _
>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>> 
> 
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the wind, continued or, "Where's the DX?"

[Brian Pease]

In my experience (sine 1957) casual CW DX contacts have nearly always 
been RST, QTH, Name, and for a long QSO maybe Rig.  A memory keyer can 
do most of TX, and nowadays there are fairly good CW decoders.  Not much 
different from other digital modes.
It seems to me that most of the thrill of DX is when the DX first 
returns your call.  Soon you are ready to move on to another conquest.

Contacts between friends are an entirely different matter.

On 4/1/2018 9:20 AM, Jeff Blaine wrote:

There is good and bad with the FT8.

The good is that it is bringing guys into the HF DX realm who never 
got active in DX because for whatever reason they felt they did not 
have a good DX station.  The bad is that the focus on RTTY (my 
favorite mode) has become less especially for DXpeditions in favor of 
the idea of FT8.  The logic behind these varies with the guy - but I 
think after the excitement and shine of FT8 wears off, the net will be 
still more total participants in HF.  That's got to be a good thing.


I don't feel bad for the dxpedition community especially wanting to 
promote FT8 over RTTY.  Working a RTTY pileup on the dxpedition end 
can result in pathetic rates and there has been no effort to promote a 
multi-slot skimmer type of software package that would make RTTY 
pileup into the high rate that is possible.  Along comes FT8 with the 
promise to do just that in an upcoming package so I view the 
dxpedition guys moving to FT8 as a logical choice over RTTY simply 
because it will end up having a higher rate than what most RTTY runs 
end up being.  I don't run FT8 at the moment but if a dxpedition is 
only running FT8 for the digital slot, I guess I will run it.  The 
genie is out of the bottle there.


It would certainly help if the ARRL especially had not homogenize the 
RTTY and all other digital modes into one for the purpose of the 
DXCC.  Why not issue separate certificates for each popular mode and 
benefit from the fees that would bring to the ARRL?  That would also 
make a lot of guys who have worked their life's for the RTTY DXCC 
count not feel as if the accomplishment is being diluted by FT8 and 
the other ether-modes.  But the ARRL's decisions more and more defy 
logic so I suppose that's a topic for another day.


But for contesting and rag chewing and DX, I'm in the camp as the 
other traditionalists are - the op on the end talking into the mic, 
slapping the paddle or typing to try to keep up with the RTTY feed is 
what a real QSO is about.  FT8 does result in a technical QSO but I'm 
not sure where the sustained enjoyment in that mode is beyond making 
the contact.


73/jeff/ac0c
alpha-charlie-zero-charlie
www.ac0c.com

On 01-Apr-18 7:49 PM, Stan Stockton wrote:

Some questions in my mind.

How important is RF in the evolution of amateur radio? Would those 
who operate using FT8 be a lot less interested if it were just 
computers linking them with others without transmitted RF? How about 
operator involvement or skill?


How important is it that hams retain 4 MHz of spectrum on 6m or other 
bands if most everyone has abandoned CW and SSB?


Is there some sense of achievement when there is so much headroom in 
power alone that another 3 dB or even another 20 dB is so easy to 
achieve?


About 50% of my enjoyment of the hobby is thinking, many hours of 
every day, about how to somehow achieve another dB on some band or 
another with a better antenna.  After about 50 hours of modeling I am 
now drilling tubing to make what I hope will be a great pair of 
tribanders to take to ZF9CW location.  One person's total waste of 
time is another's passion.


To each his own, but for the long term future of what has provided so 
many of us with a lifetime of enjoyment, woe is me.


73... Stan, K5GO
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the wind, continued or, "Where's the DX?"

[Jeff Blaine]

There is good and bad with the FT8.

The good is that it is bringing guys into the HF DX realm who never got 
active in DX because for whatever reason they felt they did not have a 
good DX station.  The bad is that the focus on RTTY (my favorite mode) 
has become less especially for DXpeditions in favor of the idea of FT8.  
The logic behind these varies with the guy - but I think after the 
excitement and shine of FT8 wears off, the net will be still more total 
participants in HF.  That's got to be a good thing.


I don't feel bad for the dxpedition community especially wanting to 
promote FT8 over RTTY.  Working a RTTY pileup on the dxpedition end can 
result in pathetic rates and there has been no effort to promote a 
multi-slot skimmer type of software package that would make RTTY pileup 
into the high rate that is possible.  Along comes FT8 with the promise 
to do just that in an upcoming package so I view the dxpedition guys 
moving to FT8 as a logical choice over RTTY simply because it will end 
up having a higher rate than what most RTTY runs end up being.  I don't 
run FT8 at the moment but if a dxpedition is only running FT8 for the 
digital slot, I guess I will run it.  The genie is out of the bottle there.


It would certainly help if the ARRL especially had not homogenize the 
RTTY and all other digital modes into one for the purpose of the DXCC.  
Why not issue separate certificates for each popular mode and benefit 
from the fees that would bring to the ARRL?  That would also make a lot 
of guys who have worked their life's for the RTTY DXCC count not feel as 
if the accomplishment is being diluted by FT8 and the other 
ether-modes.  But the ARRL's decisions more and more defy logic so I 
suppose that's a topic for another day.


But for contesting and rag chewing and DX, I'm in the camp as the other 
traditionalists are - the op on the end talking into the mic, slapping 
the paddle or typing to try to keep up with the RTTY feed is what a real 
QSO is about.  FT8 does result in a technical QSO but I'm not sure where 
the sustained enjoyment in that mode is beyond making the contact.


73/jeff/ac0c
alpha-charlie-zero-charlie
www.ac0c.com

On 01-Apr-18 7:49 PM, Stan Stockton wrote:

Some questions in my mind.

How important is RF in the evolution of amateur radio? Would those who operate 
using FT8 be a lot less interested if it were just computers linking them with 
others without transmitted RF?  How about operator involvement or skill?

How important is it that hams retain 4 MHz of spectrum on 6m or other bands if 
most everyone has abandoned CW and SSB?

Is there some sense of achievement when there is so much headroom in power 
alone that another 3 dB or even another 20 dB is so easy to achieve?

About 50% of my enjoyment of the hobby is thinking, many hours of every day, 
about how to somehow achieve another dB on some band or another with a better 
antenna.  After about 50 hours of modeling I am now drilling tubing to make 
what I hope will be a great pair of tribanders to take to ZF9CW location.  One 
person's total waste of time is another's passion.

To each his own, but for the long term future of what has provided so many of 
us with a lifetime of enjoyment, woe is me.

73... Stan, K5GO
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the wind, continued or, "Where's the DX?"

[Milan Dlabac]

I fully agree with You.I can tell You, that lot of old timers in my country
never will go to FT8.I am 68 years old and i promise You that You will find
me  on cw till I die.The same ok1tn, ok1au and lot of others.That madness of
ft8 is really the end of radioamateuring.
By the way You will find me on ol8hq station on 80m cw this summer at IURU
contest.Please, give me the shout.We will be strong(we will use 3el over 3
Yagi at 50m high).

Cw will not die at least for 10 years.

Milan
Ok1awz

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Brad
Anbro
Sent: Sunday, April 1, 2018 12:04 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Straws in the wind, continued or, "Where's the DX?"

Hello fellow DX'ers,

I have been following the discussion of FT8 and how it relates to the future
of ham radio in general, and in DX'ing, in particular. I am a 66 year-old
retired industrial electrician, who has been licensed sine 1981, having
first received my Novice Class ticket, then upgrading to Advanced and then
finally, to Extra Class in 1983. Needless to say, these were licenses in
which it was REQUIRED to pass Morse Code tests.

Up until recently, I operated on all HF bands, from 10 meters through 160
meters and my operating mode is about 99% CW. The local ham radio club put
on a talk about FT8 a couple of months ago. I sat there and politely
listened to what was being said. I can state for a fact that I will NEVER
engage in the FT8 mode of communication or in any of the other "digital"
modes.

To my way of thinking, ham radio is about PEOPLE communicating with other
people; not about computers
(machines) communicating with other computers (machines). The purpose of
this post is not to condemn any person who operates using these digital
modes. If that is what he or she wants to do, great! But to compare
operating with FT8 with CW is, in my opinion, like comparing apples and
oranges. In the FT8 talk at the local ham radio club meeting, it was stated
that FT8 communications will "get through" under conditions that would not
allow even CW communications to get through.

I very much enjoy DX'ing on 80 and 160 meters because of the challenge of
dealing with the weak signals and the QRN levels with which one has to
contend. Here again, to my way of thinking, if one runs up a big country
total, say on 160 meters, with FT8 and attempts to "compare" that with
another DX'ing on
160 meters using CW or SSB, he or she is making an unfair comparison (apples
& oranges).

I recently moved from northern Illinois to eastern Tennessee, to enjoy my
retirement years and am in the process of putting up a guyed Rohn 55G tower
and will install a Cushcraft XM240 (small 2-element
40 meter monoband yagi) and a Hygain 204BA (4-element 20 meter monoband
yagi) on the tower. That way, I will have a good antenna for a "daytime"
band (20 meters) and one for a "night-time" band (40 meters). I am also
going to put up antennas so that I can get back to working DX on 80 & 160
meters.

Back in Illinois, I operated on all three "WARC bands" and managed to run up
a country total of over
300 DXCC entities on all three WARC bands. I had a home-built copy of a KLM
30M-3 (KLM's 3-element
30 meter monoband yagi) installed at the 87' level of one of my towers and
managed to work 327 DXCC entities on that band, all with using no more than
100 watts of transmitter power.

Before moving to Tennessee in May of 2017, I noticed that the DX on 30
meters was getting less and less. This winter, I quickly put up a delta loop
for 30 meters, in hopes of working Kosovo on that band, as a new DXCC
entity. After putting the antenna up, I found that there was very little DX
to work, using the CW mode of communication. I was not surprised by this in
the least.

I am very afraid that after I go through with all of the work and expense of
again establishing an HF station here in Tennessee that the other bands will
go the route of 30 meters - that there will be less and less CW-DX on those
bands, because most of the operation will have shifted to FT8. I can already
see that happening right now. Twenty meters seems to "close up" here around
1430Z - 1500Z but it really doesn't "close up" - I've heard MANY loud
European stations in the afternoon, calling a DX station that was on a
DX-pedition, the European stations trying to "work a new one." I have also
tuned around on 40 and 80 meters at night and have experienced a lack of DX
stations on CW, especially on 80 meters.

I am going to put up my HF antennas and will continue to work DX, using CW
as my preferred means of communicating. I will be content to work the
"garden variety DX" and will try my best to act as a "good-will ambassador"
for my country, the United States...
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


---
Tato zpráva byla zkontrolována na viry programem Avast Antivirus.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

_
Topband Reflector 

Re: Topband: Straws in the wind, continued or, "Where's the DX?"

[Stan Stockton]

Some questions in my mind.

How important is RF in the evolution of amateur radio? Would those who operate 
using FT8 be a lot less interested if it were just computers linking them with 
others without transmitted RF?  How about operator involvement or skill?

How important is it that hams retain 4 MHz of spectrum on 6m or other bands if 
most everyone has abandoned CW and SSB?   

Is there some sense of achievement when there is so much headroom in power 
alone that another 3 dB or even another 20 dB is so easy to achieve?  

About 50% of my enjoyment of the hobby is thinking, many hours of every day, 
about how to somehow achieve another dB on some band or another with a better 
antenna.  After about 50 hours of modeling I am now drilling tubing to make 
what I hope will be a great pair of tribanders to take to ZF9CW location.  One 
person's total waste of time is another's passion.

To each his own, but for the long term future of what has provided so many of 
us with a lifetime of enjoyment, woe is me.

73... Stan, K5GO
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: Straws in the wind, continued or, "Where's the DX?"

[Brad Anbro]

Hello fellow DX'ers,

I have been following the discussion of FT8 and how it relates to the future of 
ham radio in general, and
in DX'ing, in particular. I am a 66 year-old retired industrial electrician, 
who has been licensed sine 1981,
having first received my Novice Class ticket, then upgrading to Advanced and 
then finally, to Extra Class
in 1983. Needless to say, these were licenses in which it was REQUIRED to pass 
Morse Code tests.

Up until recently, I operated on all HF bands, from 10 meters through 160 
meters and my operating mode
is about 99% CW. The local ham radio club put on a talk about FT8 a couple of 
months ago. I sat there and
politely listened to what was being said. I can state for a fact that I will 
NEVER engage in the FT8 mode of
communication or in any of the other "digital" modes.

To my way of thinking, ham radio is about PEOPLE communicating with other 
people; not about computers
(machines) communicating with other computers (machines). The purpose of this 
post is not to condemn
any person who operates using these digital modes. If that is what he or she 
wants to do, great! But to
compare operating with FT8 with CW is, in my opinion, like comparing apples and 
oranges. In the FT8 talk
at the local ham radio club meeting, it was stated that FT8 communications will 
"get through" under
conditions that would not allow even CW communications to get through.

I very much enjoy DX'ing on 80 and 160 meters because of the challenge of 
dealing with the weak signals
and the QRN levels with which one has to contend. Here again, to my way of 
thinking, if one runs up a
big country total, say on 160 meters, with FT8 and attempts to "compare" that 
with another DX'ing on
160 meters using CW or SSB, he or she is making an unfair comparison (apples & 
oranges).

I recently moved from northern Illinois to eastern Tennessee, to enjoy my 
retirement years and am in
the process of putting up a guyed Rohn 55G tower and will install a Cushcraft 
XM240 (small 2-element
40 meter monoband yagi) and a Hygain 204BA (4-element 20 meter monoband yagi) 
on the tower. That
way, I will have a good antenna for a "daytime" band (20 meters) and one for a 
"night-time" band (40
meters). I am also going to put up antennas so that I can get back to working 
DX on 80 & 160 meters.

Back in Illinois, I operated on all three "WARC bands" and managed to run up a 
country total of over
300 DXCC entities on all three WARC bands. I had a home-built copy of a KLM 
30M-3 (KLM's 3-element
30 meter monoband yagi) installed at the 87' level of one of my towers and 
managed to work 327 DXCC
entities on that band, all with using no more than 100 watts of transmitter 
power.

Before moving to Tennessee in May of 2017, I noticed that the DX on 30 meters 
was getting less and
less. This winter, I quickly put up a delta loop for 30 meters, in hopes of 
working Kosovo on that band,
as a new DXCC entity. After putting the antenna up, I found that there was very 
little DX to work, using
the CW mode of communication. I was not surprised by this in the least.

I am very afraid that after I go through with all of the work and expense of 
again establishing an HF
station here in Tennessee that the other bands will go the route of 30 meters - 
that there will be less
and less CW-DX on those bands, because most of the operation will have shifted 
to FT8. I can already
see that happening right now. Twenty meters seems to "close up" here around 
1430Z - 1500Z but it
really doesn't "close up" - I've heard MANY loud European stations in the 
afternoon, calling a DX
station that was on a DX-pedition, the European stations trying to "work a new 
one." I have also
tuned around on 40 and 80 meters at night and have experienced a lack of DX 
stations on CW,
especially on 80 meters.

I am going to put up my HF antennas and will continue to work DX, using CW as 
my preferred means
of communicating. I will be content to work the "garden variety DX" and will 
try my best to act as a
"good-will ambassador" for my country, the United States...
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband