Topband: Waller Flag Kit?

[Steve Harrison]

Wasn't somebody producing a Waller Flag kit awhile back? Can't seem to
find info on it now...

TNX,

Steve K0XP



_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[Mike Waters]

Search for...
BOG and K2AV
...in the searchable archives at
http://www.contesting.com/_topband, and you'll wind a wealth of information
about BOGs that is unavailable anywhere else! :-)

The latest version of ON4UN's *Low Band DXing* ARRL book contains some BOG
info also, IIRC.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 3:53 PM Mike Smith VE9AA  wrote:

> I have very little experience with them, however given your high noise
> level
> and small(ish?) lot (not sure how large it is), would a few BOG's be a
> better option I wonder?
>
>
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[Mike Smith VE9AA]

Stan, 

 

I have very little experience with them, however given your high noise level
and small(ish?) lot (not sure how large it is), would a few BOG's be a
better option I wonder?

 

Looking forward to seeing you work this one out.

 

GL !

 

Mike VE9AA

 

Mike, Coreen & Corey

Keswick Ridge, NB

 

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[donovanf]

Hi Stan, 


A horizontally polarized receiving antenna only 64 feet high on 
160 meters will have exceptionally poor performance at the angles 
you need for DX QSOs. The performance is much worse when 
both horizontally polarized loops are very small and close spaced 
compared to the proven Horizontal Waller Flag design. 


In my opinion it will not be worth your effort unless you can raise 
it at to nearly 100 feet (preferably much higher) and use the 
proven full size Horizontal Waller Flag design. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "Stan Stockton"  
To: n...@n4is.com, topband@contesting.com 
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 8:27:43 PM 
Subject: Re: Topband: Waller Flag 

Thanks, JC. Based on what you said and what I know about the location, I 
think I probably have enough noise that I shouldn't have to worry about how 
much gain the preamp might have relative to the negative gain of the 
smaller antenna. 

My plan would be to install it horizontally at about 64 feet above a 
tribander. If I can make it all work, it would be the greatest improvement 
to my little station that could possibly be made. I have worked VU2 and 
some other good stuff with what I have tried in the past, but there is no 
question that I transmit a lot better than I receive on 160m. 

I see in the model I have that going to 750 feet high increases gain by 
about 17 dB and RDF by about 3 as compared to where I can put it. 

I would be very pleased to make a noticeable improvement over the little 
triangle antenna and have something that is on my tower that I could rotate. 

73...Stan. 

On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 2:04 PM  wrote: 

> Hi Stan 
> 
> There are two very important numbers to consider, first is horizontal or 
> vertical, the horizontal signal is zero at ground level and maximum at 1.5 
> wave length height , vertical signal is maximum at ground level and minimum 
> at 1.5 wave high. The second is the gain, the local noise limits the gain, 
> if you are on a very quiet location bigger loops can dig weaker signal out 
> of the noise. 
> 
> Vertical WF can be small, 6 or 8m are common, you only need a low noise 
> preamplifier 2db or better, gain is not important , 20 db external gain is 
> enough on 160m. Horizontal is more challenging you need a < 1db NF. 
> 
> I am working on a project using two SDR receivers to phase the loops by 
> software, it should be possible to reduce the size of the boom. But not the 
> height necessary because the limitation is the horizontal receiver signal 
> intensity. For horizontal average performance on 160m it is necessary 20 m 
> above the ground, 10m high for 80m. Good performance on 160m it is 
> necessary 
> 30 to 40 m above ground, and it shows no limitation on performance. Higher 
> is always better. 
> 
> Check vertical W8VVW (8m) WF or WX4D ( 10m) original WF. 
> 
> Regards 
> JC 
> N4IS 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message- 
> From: Topband  On Behalf Of Stan Stockton 
> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 2:15 PM 
> To: topband@contesting.com 
> Subject: Topband: Waller Flag 
> 
> I am curious to know if anyone on here has scaled a Waller Flag to a 
> smaller 
> antenna and had any success with whatever might be available for preamps to 
> bring the gain up enough to start to hear band noise. 
> 
> At my location on Cayman Brac I could probably get by with a 20 foot boom 
> but not much larger. According to my model, one with a 50 foot boom is 
> about -48 dB, one with a 30 foot boom is about -65 dB and one with a 20 
> foot 
> boom, like I would lilke to put up, is about -79 dB. 
> 
> I guess a lot to do with how successful the antenna might work for me will 
> have to do with how much preamplifier gain I will need at my particular 
> location to start to hear noise. I wanna use it on 160, 80 and 40 and the 
> gain of the 20 foot boom one is enough for 80 and 40 using a 30 or 40 dB 
> preamp. 
> 
> Any help would be appreciated. 
> 
> 73 and Merry Christmas...Stan, K5GO/ZF9CW _ Searchable 
> Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector 
> 
> 
_ 
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_
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Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[john]

Another RX option that will likely fit on your property is a Pennant. I had
one at my Aruba home and while it was no match for those with Beverages it
was definitely better than listening on my TX vertical squeezed into the
same small lot. On top band, ZF is quiet compared to P4.

John KK9A - P40A


Topband: Waller Flag
Stan Stockton wa5rtg at gmail.com 
Sat Dec 15 14:15:25 EST 2018

I am curious to know if anyone on here has scaled a Waller Flag to a
smaller antenna and had any success with whatever might be available for
preamps to bring the gain up enough to start to hear band noise.

At my location on Cayman Brac I could probably get by with a 20 foot boom
but not much larger.  According to my model, one with a 50 foot boom is
about -48 dB, one with a 30 foot boom is about -65 dB and one with a 20
foot boom, like I would lilke to put up, is about -79 dB.

I guess a lot to do with how successful the antenna might work for me will
have to do with how much preamplifier gain I will need at my particular
location to start to hear noise.  I wanna use it on 160, 80 and 40 and the
gain of the 20 foot boom one is enough for 80 and 40 using a 30 or 40 dB
preamp.

Any help would be appreciated.

73 and Merry Christmas...Stan, K5GO/ZF9CW

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[James Wolf]

Stan,

Without crunching through the numbers, it seems obvious that you will have
to have a significant signal loss to overcome due to the low antenna gain at
the input of a  preamp.
With -79 dB of gain from a Waller Flag,  the input to your preamp will be
far below -174 dBm.   If it were even possible, the input noise to your
preamp would be less than  -185 dBm.

Jim - KR9U

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Stan
Stockton
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 2:15 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Waller Flag

I am curious to know if anyone on here has scaled a Waller Flag to a
smaller antenna and had any success with whatever might be available for
preamps to bring the gain up enough to start to hear band noise.

At my location on Cayman Brac I could probably get by with a 20 foot boom
but not much larger.  According to my model, one with a 50 foot boom is
about -48 dB, one with a 30 foot boom is about -65 dB and one with a 20
foot boom, like I would lilke to put up, is about -79 dB.

I guess a lot to do with how successful the antenna might work for me will
have to do with how much preamplifier gain I will need at my particular
location to start to hear noise.  I wanna use it on 160, 80 and 40 and the
gain of the 20 foot boom one is enough for 80 and 40 using a 30 or 40 dB
preamp.

Any help would be appreciated.

73 and Merry Christmas...Stan, K5GO/ZF9CW
_
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_
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Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[John Harden, D.M.D.]

Without my Hi-Z 8 and the Waller Flag (on a 40 Ft boom at 95 ft) I would not 
hear squat on 160.
I listen in diversity receive with the K3 and use only the Hi-Z 8 with the 
IC-7610. However, the IC-7610 is EXTREMELY QUIET!! 

73,

John, W4NU
Atlanta
K4JAG 1959 to 1998

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 15, 2018, at 3:05 PM, Stan Stockton  wrote:
> 
> Thanks, Rick.  I think you are fortunate to have a low noise level where
> you could actually use your TX Antenna.
> 
> My situation is that if I tried to listen on my transmit antenna I would
> only work the very strongest of signals.  Typically the noise moves the
> meter to about 20-25 over S9 if I listen on my vertical.  The best success
> I have had is with a Beverage, but whether on any given trip I can put one
> up largely depends on whether any of the four or five people's property I
> would cross are there and whether they would allow it or complain about
> it.  On my own property, the only thing I have done is put up a little
> triangle with the top at about 20 feet and the bottom wire in the
> neighborhood of 30-35 feet.  That antenna has about -37 dB of gain.  A 15
> dB preamp plus the preamp in the transceiver makes it an OK antenna - good
> enough that I have worked about 250 JA stations none of which would have
> been worked if I were listening on my vertical.  And I am guessing that if
> I had a 3 dB improvement in S/N ratio that I would have worked 400 in the
> same time period.  That antenna has an RDF of 7.7.  Always wanting
> something better and if I could put up something I could rotate with an RDF
> of 11 or so, I would hope to be content.
> 
> Stan
> 
> Stan
> 
> On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 1:47 PM Richard (Rick) Karlquist <
> rich...@karlquist.com> wrote:
> 
>> General response, not specific to the Waller Flag:
>> 
>> For a number of good reasons, you should not expect
>> a NF below 3 dB for any practical preamp.  OTOH,
>> virtually all radios have an internal switchable preamp.
>> Let's say your radio is really pedestrian, and the
>> internal preamp has 10 dB NF.  Neglecting feedline
>> loss, your preamp gain only needs to be about 13 dB in
>> order to the preamp noise to dominate over the radio
>> noise.  Any additional gain above that will not help
>> you "start to hear band noise" but will instead hear
>> preamp noise.  Some ops like to use additional gain in
>> the preamp to make the AGC threshold occur at a lower
>> level.  This reduces listener fatigue, but does not
>> actually produce any newly-readable signals.
>> 
>> If the above isn't correct, can someone give a worked
>> example of where a 40 dB preamp would make sense?
>> 
>> FWIW, I tried a Waller loop last year in the 160 meter
>> contest.  It was quite large (I have plenty of space).
>> It seemed to be working OK in terms of being directional,
>> but it almost never improved the readability of any
>> signals vs the vertical.  IOW, aiming it at Japan didn't
>> help work JA's, except to the extent that it reduced
>> stateside QRM.  On a clear frequency, there was no advantage.
>> 
>> 73
>> Rick N6RK
>> 
>>> On 12/15/2018 11:15 AM, Stan Stockton wrote:
>>> I am curious to know if anyone on here has scaled a Waller Flag to a
>>> smaller antenna and had any success with whatever might be available for
>>> preamps to bring the gain up enough to start to hear band noise.
>>> 
>>> At my location on Cayman Brac I could probably get by with a 20 foot boom
>>> but not much larger.  According to my model, one with a 50 foot boom is
>>> about -48 dB, one with a 30 foot boom is about -65 dB and one with a 20
>>> foot boom, like I would lilke to put up, is about -79 dB.
>>> 
>>> I guess a lot to do with how successful the antenna might work for me
>> will
>>> have to do with how much preamplifier gain I will need at my particular
>>> location to start to hear noise.  I wanna use it on 160, 80 and 40 and
>> the
>>> gain of the 20 foot boom one is enough for 80 and 40 using a 30 or 40 dB
>>> preamp.
>>> 
>>> Any help would be appreciated.
>>> 
>>> 73 and Merry Christmas...Stan, K5GO/ZF9CW
>>> _
>>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>> Reflector
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

_
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Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[n4is]

Stan

 

Yes, for each one db improvement on RDF you can expect 2 or more dB on signal 
to noise ratio.  One simple solution for you is to phase two or 4 delta flags, 
it will provide over 14 db RDF and only 50m long.

 

73’s

JC

N4IS

 

From: Stan Stockton  
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 3:28 PM
To: n...@n4is.com; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Waller Flag

 

Thanks, JC.  Based on what you said and what I know about the location, I think 
I probably have enough noise that I shouldn't have to worry about how much gain 
the preamp might have relative to the negative gain of the smaller antenna.

 

My plan would be to install it horizontally at about 64 feet above a tribander. 
 If I can make it all work, it would be the greatest improvement to my little 
station that could possibly be made.  I have worked VU2 and some other good 
stuff with what I have tried in the past, but there is no question that I 
transmit a lot better than I receive on 160m.  

 

I see in the model I have that going to 750 feet high increases gain by about 
17 dB and RDF by about 3 as compared to where I can put it.

 

I would be very pleased to make a noticeable improvement over the little 
triangle antenna and have something that is on my tower that I could rotate.

 

73...Stan. 

 

On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 2:04 PM mailto:n...@n4is.com> > wrote:

Hi Stan

There are two very important numbers to consider, first is horizontal or
vertical, the horizontal signal is zero at ground level and maximum at 1.5
wave length height , vertical signal is maximum at ground level and minimum
at 1.5 wave high. The second is the gain, the local noise limits the gain,
if you are on a very quiet location bigger loops can dig weaker signal out
of the noise.

Vertical WF can be small, 6 or 8m are common, you only need a low noise
preamplifier  2db or better, gain is not important , 20 db external gain is
enough on 160m. Horizontal is more challenging you need a < 1db NF.

I am working on a project using  two SDR receivers to phase the loops by
software, it should be possible to reduce the size of the boom. But not the
height necessary because the limitation is the horizontal  receiver signal
intensity. For horizontal average performance on 160m it is necessary 20 m
above the ground, 10m high for 80m. Good performance on 160m it is necessary
30 to 40 m above ground, and it  shows no limitation on performance. Higher
is always better.

Check vertical  W8VVW  (8m) WF or WX4D ( 10m)  original WF.

Regards
JC
N4IS



-Original Message-
From: Topband mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com> > On Behalf Of Stan Stockton
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 2:15 PM
To: topband@contesting.com <mailto:topband@contesting.com> 
Subject: Topband: Waller Flag

I am curious to know if anyone on here has scaled a Waller Flag to a smaller
antenna and had any success with whatever might be available for preamps to
bring the gain up enough to start to hear band noise.

At my location on Cayman Brac I could probably get by with a 20 foot boom
but not much larger.  According to my model, one with a 50 foot boom is
about -48 dB, one with a 30 foot boom is about -65 dB and one with a 20 foot
boom, like I would lilke to put up, is about -79 dB.

I guess a lot to do with how successful the antenna might work for me will
have to do with how much preamplifier gain I will need at my particular
location to start to hear noise.  I wanna use it on 160, 80 and 40 and the
gain of the 20 foot boom one is enough for 80 and 40 using a 30 or 40 dB
preamp.

Any help would be appreciated.

73 and Merry Christmas...Stan, K5GO/ZF9CW _ Searchable
Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[Stan Stockton]

Thanks, JC.  Based on what you said and what I know about the location, I
think I probably have enough noise that I shouldn't have to worry about how
much gain the preamp might have relative to the negative gain of the
smaller antenna.

My plan would be to install it horizontally at about 64 feet above a
tribander.  If I can make it all work, it would be the greatest improvement
to my little station that could possibly be made.  I have worked VU2 and
some other good stuff with what I have tried in the past, but there is no
question that I transmit a lot better than I receive on 160m.

I see in the model I have that going to 750 feet high increases gain by
about 17 dB and RDF by about 3 as compared to where I can put it.

I would be very pleased to make a noticeable improvement over the little
triangle antenna and have something that is on my tower that I could rotate.

73...Stan.

On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 2:04 PM  wrote:

> Hi Stan
>
> There are two very important numbers to consider, first is horizontal or
> vertical, the horizontal signal is zero at ground level and maximum at 1.5
> wave length height , vertical signal is maximum at ground level and minimum
> at 1.5 wave high. The second is the gain, the local noise limits the gain,
> if you are on a very quiet location bigger loops can dig weaker signal out
> of the noise.
>
> Vertical WF can be small, 6 or 8m are common, you only need a low noise
> preamplifier  2db or better, gain is not important , 20 db external gain is
> enough on 160m. Horizontal is more challenging you need a < 1db NF.
>
> I am working on a project using  two SDR receivers to phase the loops by
> software, it should be possible to reduce the size of the boom. But not the
> height necessary because the limitation is the horizontal  receiver signal
> intensity. For horizontal average performance on 160m it is necessary 20 m
> above the ground, 10m high for 80m. Good performance on 160m it is
> necessary
> 30 to 40 m above ground, and it  shows no limitation on performance. Higher
> is always better.
>
> Check vertical  W8VVW  (8m) WF or WX4D ( 10m)  original WF.
>
> Regards
> JC
> N4IS
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Topband  On Behalf Of Stan Stockton
> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 2:15 PM
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Topband: Waller Flag
>
> I am curious to know if anyone on here has scaled a Waller Flag to a
> smaller
> antenna and had any success with whatever might be available for preamps to
> bring the gain up enough to start to hear band noise.
>
> At my location on Cayman Brac I could probably get by with a 20 foot boom
> but not much larger.  According to my model, one with a 50 foot boom is
> about -48 dB, one with a 30 foot boom is about -65 dB and one with a 20
> foot
> boom, like I would lilke to put up, is about -79 dB.
>
> I guess a lot to do with how successful the antenna might work for me will
> have to do with how much preamplifier gain I will need at my particular
> location to start to hear noise.  I wanna use it on 160, 80 and 40 and the
> gain of the 20 foot boom one is enough for 80 and 40 using a 30 or 40 dB
> preamp.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> 73 and Merry Christmas...Stan, K5GO/ZF9CW _ Searchable
> Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
>
>
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[Stan Stockton]

Thanks, Rick.  I think you are fortunate to have a low noise level where
you could actually use your TX Antenna.

My situation is that if I tried to listen on my transmit antenna I would
only work the very strongest of signals.  Typically the noise moves the
meter to about 20-25 over S9 if I listen on my vertical.  The best success
I have had is with a Beverage, but whether on any given trip I can put one
up largely depends on whether any of the four or five people's property I
would cross are there and whether they would allow it or complain about
it.  On my own property, the only thing I have done is put up a little
triangle with the top at about 20 feet and the bottom wire in the
neighborhood of 30-35 feet.  That antenna has about -37 dB of gain.  A 15
dB preamp plus the preamp in the transceiver makes it an OK antenna - good
enough that I have worked about 250 JA stations none of which would have
been worked if I were listening on my vertical.  And I am guessing that if
I had a 3 dB improvement in S/N ratio that I would have worked 400 in the
same time period.  That antenna has an RDF of 7.7.  Always wanting
something better and if I could put up something I could rotate with an RDF
of 11 or so, I would hope to be content.

Stan

Stan

On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 1:47 PM Richard (Rick) Karlquist <
rich...@karlquist.com> wrote:

> General response, not specific to the Waller Flag:
>
> For a number of good reasons, you should not expect
> a NF below 3 dB for any practical preamp.  OTOH,
> virtually all radios have an internal switchable preamp.
> Let's say your radio is really pedestrian, and the
> internal preamp has 10 dB NF.  Neglecting feedline
> loss, your preamp gain only needs to be about 13 dB in
> order to the preamp noise to dominate over the radio
> noise.  Any additional gain above that will not help
> you "start to hear band noise" but will instead hear
> preamp noise.  Some ops like to use additional gain in
> the preamp to make the AGC threshold occur at a lower
> level.  This reduces listener fatigue, but does not
> actually produce any newly-readable signals.
>
> If the above isn't correct, can someone give a worked
> example of where a 40 dB preamp would make sense?
>
> FWIW, I tried a Waller loop last year in the 160 meter
> contest.  It was quite large (I have plenty of space).
> It seemed to be working OK in terms of being directional,
> but it almost never improved the readability of any
> signals vs the vertical.  IOW, aiming it at Japan didn't
> help work JA's, except to the extent that it reduced
> stateside QRM.  On a clear frequency, there was no advantage.
>
> 73
> Rick N6RK
>
> On 12/15/2018 11:15 AM, Stan Stockton wrote:
> > I am curious to know if anyone on here has scaled a Waller Flag to a
> > smaller antenna and had any success with whatever might be available for
> > preamps to bring the gain up enough to start to hear band noise.
> >
> > At my location on Cayman Brac I could probably get by with a 20 foot boom
> > but not much larger.  According to my model, one with a 50 foot boom is
> > about -48 dB, one with a 30 foot boom is about -65 dB and one with a 20
> > foot boom, like I would lilke to put up, is about -79 dB.
> >
> > I guess a lot to do with how successful the antenna might work for me
> will
> > have to do with how much preamplifier gain I will need at my particular
> > location to start to hear noise.  I wanna use it on 160, 80 and 40 and
> the
> > gain of the 20 foot boom one is enough for 80 and 40 using a 30 or 40 dB
> > preamp.
> >
> > Any help would be appreciated.
> >
> > 73 and Merry Christmas...Stan, K5GO/ZF9CW
> > _
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
> >
> >
>
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[n4is]

Hi Stan

There are two very important numbers to consider, first is horizontal or
vertical, the horizontal signal is zero at ground level and maximum at 1.5
wave length height , vertical signal is maximum at ground level and minimum
at 1.5 wave high. The second is the gain, the local noise limits the gain,
if you are on a very quiet location bigger loops can dig weaker signal out
of the noise.

Vertical WF can be small, 6 or 8m are common, you only need a low noise
preamplifier  2db or better, gain is not important , 20 db external gain is
enough on 160m. Horizontal is more challenging you need a < 1db NF.

I am working on a project using  two SDR receivers to phase the loops by
software, it should be possible to reduce the size of the boom. But not the
height necessary because the limitation is the horizontal  receiver signal
intensity. For horizontal average performance on 160m it is necessary 20 m
above the ground, 10m high for 80m. Good performance on 160m it is necessary
30 to 40 m above ground, and it  shows no limitation on performance. Higher
is always better.

Check vertical  W8VVW  (8m) WF or WX4D ( 10m)  original WF.

Regards
JC
N4IS



-Original Message-
From: Topband  On Behalf Of Stan Stockton
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 2:15 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Waller Flag

I am curious to know if anyone on here has scaled a Waller Flag to a smaller
antenna and had any success with whatever might be available for preamps to
bring the gain up enough to start to hear band noise.

At my location on Cayman Brac I could probably get by with a 20 foot boom
but not much larger.  According to my model, one with a 50 foot boom is
about -48 dB, one with a 30 foot boom is about -65 dB and one with a 20 foot
boom, like I would lilke to put up, is about -79 dB.

I guess a lot to do with how successful the antenna might work for me will
have to do with how much preamplifier gain I will need at my particular
location to start to hear noise.  I wanna use it on 160, 80 and 40 and the
gain of the 20 foot boom one is enough for 80 and 40 using a 30 or 40 dB
preamp.

Any help would be appreciated.

73 and Merry Christmas...Stan, K5GO/ZF9CW _ Searchable
Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

General response, not specific to the Waller Flag:

For a number of good reasons, you should not expect
a NF below 3 dB for any practical preamp.  OTOH,
virtually all radios have an internal switchable preamp.
Let's say your radio is really pedestrian, and the
internal preamp has 10 dB NF.  Neglecting feedline
loss, your preamp gain only needs to be about 13 dB in
order to the preamp noise to dominate over the radio
noise.  Any additional gain above that will not help
you "start to hear band noise" but will instead hear
preamp noise.  Some ops like to use additional gain in
the preamp to make the AGC threshold occur at a lower
level.  This reduces listener fatigue, but does not
actually produce any newly-readable signals.

If the above isn't correct, can someone give a worked
example of where a 40 dB preamp would make sense?

FWIW, I tried a Waller loop last year in the 160 meter
contest.  It was quite large (I have plenty of space).
It seemed to be working OK in terms of being directional,
but it almost never improved the readability of any
signals vs the vertical.  IOW, aiming it at Japan didn't
help work JA's, except to the extent that it reduced
stateside QRM.  On a clear frequency, there was no advantage.

73
Rick N6RK

On 12/15/2018 11:15 AM, Stan Stockton wrote:

I am curious to know if anyone on here has scaled a Waller Flag to a
smaller antenna and had any success with whatever might be available for
preamps to bring the gain up enough to start to hear band noise.

At my location on Cayman Brac I could probably get by with a 20 foot boom
but not much larger.  According to my model, one with a 50 foot boom is
about -48 dB, one with a 30 foot boom is about -65 dB and one with a 20
foot boom, like I would lilke to put up, is about -79 dB.

I guess a lot to do with how successful the antenna might work for me will
have to do with how much preamplifier gain I will need at my particular
location to start to hear noise.  I wanna use it on 160, 80 and 40 and the
gain of the 20 foot boom one is enough for 80 and 40 using a 30 or 40 dB
preamp.

Any help would be appreciated.

73 and Merry Christmas...Stan, K5GO/ZF9CW
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector



_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Topband: Waller Flag

[Stan Stockton]

I am curious to know if anyone on here has scaled a Waller Flag to a
smaller antenna and had any success with whatever might be available for
preamps to bring the gain up enough to start to hear band noise.

At my location on Cayman Brac I could probably get by with a 20 foot boom
but not much larger.  According to my model, one with a 50 foot boom is
about -48 dB, one with a 30 foot boom is about -65 dB and one with a 20
foot boom, like I would lilke to put up, is about -79 dB.

I guess a lot to do with how successful the antenna might work for me will
have to do with how much preamplifier gain I will need at my particular
location to start to hear noise.  I wanna use it on 160, 80 and 40 and the
gain of the 20 foot boom one is enough for 80 and 40 using a 30 or 40 dB
preamp.

Any help would be appreciated.

73 and Merry Christmas...Stan, K5GO/ZF9CW
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

[Ken K6MR]

No, only at the feedpoint.  Once I get the resistors changed I’ll try some 
tests with the feedline.

Thanks for all the ideas. This thing may work yet!

Ken K6MR



From: Bob K6UJ<mailto:k...@pacbell.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 19:04
To: topband@contesting.com<mailto:topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

Ken,

I am thinking along the lines as Gregg.  Try disconnecting the feedline
at the antenna and compare noise levels.
Do you have a choke on both ends of the feedline ?


Bob
K6UJ

On 4/26/16 6:00 PM, Ken K6MR wrote:
> Good idea Gregg. I suspect there may be some common mode problems.
>
> I did discover one problem thanks to questions from K6UJ: the resistors on 
> the loops need to be non-inductive and the ones I installed are not. Dumb 
> error on my part. When I lower the antenna to change the resistors I will be 
> able to get to the feedline connector. So that is something I can do easily.  
> I also have more ferrites so I may add some additional feedline chokes since 
> I have to cut the feedline loose from the mast anyway.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ken K6MR
>
>
>
> From: Gregg W6IZT<mailto:gregg.w6i...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 17:34
> To: topband@contesting.com<mailto:topband@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance
>
> Ken:
>
> No directivity and noisier than the TX vertical. Perhaps you should look at 
> these as two separate observations. Try disconnecting the feedline at the 
> antenna. What is the noise level with the antenna disconnected and the 
> pre-amp gain adjusted for 35-40 dB?
>
> 73
> Gregg
> W6IZT
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ken K6MR
> Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 6:11 PM
> To: Clive GM3POI <gm3p...@btinternet.com>; topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance
>
> No it does not and that’s a good point. I’m pretty sure the vertical 800 feet 
> away is not much of an issue, but the tower within 150’ could be a problem. 
> The model is going to be difficult because there are four yagis on the tower. 
>  Good project for a rainy day.
> I have one other tower about 350’ away that also has multiple yagis but 
> hopefully that also is far enough.
>
> The other option is to move it to one of the other towers and change to 
> horizontal polarization and up higher. N4IS seems to prefer that orientation. 
> At the moment the performance is so poor that I’m thinking I did something 
> wrong in the assembly.
>
> Ken K6MR
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Clive GM3POI<mailto:gm3p...@btinternet.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 15:03
> To: 'Ken K6MR'<mailto:k...@outlook.com>
> Subject: RE: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance
>
> on Locked="
> Ken, When you say the EZnec model looks great does that include the other 
> towers.? If not include them and reassess.
> 73 Clive GM3POI
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ken K6MR
> Sent: 23 April 2016 18:38
> To: Bob K6UJ; topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance
>
> Let’s start here and see how it goes. If someone complains we’ll take it off 
> line. Nothing like a public discussion to bring out the best ideas.  I 
> changed the subject line so the discussion will make sense.
>
> The 160 transmit vertical is about 800’ away. There is an 80’ tower with 
> various higher band yagis on it about 150’ away.
>
> My loop size is 12’ high, 10’ wide. 4’ between loops.  Vertical loops. The 
> boom is 50’ high. The tower is near the house, but single story house so the 
> boom is 35’ above the roof.
>
> The EZNec model looks great (of course). The gain models a bit low, but the 
> RDF and gain test are in the right ranges. Right now the big problem is no 
> directivity and it is actually noisier than the vertical. I have the 
> adjustable gain pre-amp from DXE (KD9SV design) in the shack.
>
> So that’s the background. Common mode problems would indeed be my first 
> suspect.  Interested in how you handled it.
>
> Ken K6MR
>
> From: Bob K6UJ<mailto:k...@pacbell.net>
> Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 11:00
> To: topband@contesting.com<mailto:topband@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: Topband: The band sans noise
>
> rue" Name="index 1"/>  Hi Ken,
>
> Be glad to.  It took me a while to get mine working, found some basic things 
> I needed to do and it now works very well.
> First a question.  How far is your flag from the house and also an antenna 
> tower or 

Re: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

[Bob K6UJ]

Don't bash yourself too hard Ken.  I have had my share of oops, what did 
I do ?  :-)

It will be interesting to see what happens when you disconnect the feedline.


Bob
K6Uj

On 4/26/16 6:33 PM, Ken K6MR wrote:

Yes I did put that in. I think.  I modeled the whole thing and duplicated the 
phasing line lengths and crossover at the feedpoint. Although once I get it 
down I’m going to recheck that again. After my blunder with the resistors 
there’s no telling what else I’ve done wrong.

Thanks,

Ken K6MR



From: Lee STRAHAN<mailto:k7...@msn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 18:16
To: topband@contesting.com<mailto:topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

   Ken, did you remember the 180 degree phase inversion needed on the Waller 
flag.
It will act like a very large signal level single loop if not.

Lee K7TJR

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

[Bob K6UJ]

Ken,

I am thinking along the lines as Gregg.  Try disconnecting the feedline 
at the antenna and compare noise levels.

Do you have a choke on both ends of the feedline ?


Bob
K6UJ

On 4/26/16 6:00 PM, Ken K6MR wrote:

Good idea Gregg. I suspect there may be some common mode problems.

I did discover one problem thanks to questions from K6UJ: the resistors on the 
loops need to be non-inductive and the ones I installed are not. Dumb error on 
my part. When I lower the antenna to change the resistors I will be able to get 
to the feedline connector. So that is something I can do easily.  I also have 
more ferrites so I may add some additional feedline chokes since I have to cut 
the feedline loose from the mast anyway.

Thanks,

Ken K6MR



From: Gregg W6IZT<mailto:gregg.w6i...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 17:34
To: topband@contesting.com<mailto:topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

Ken:

No directivity and noisier than the TX vertical. Perhaps you should look at 
these as two separate observations. Try disconnecting the feedline at the 
antenna. What is the noise level with the antenna disconnected and the pre-amp 
gain adjusted for 35-40 dB?

73
Gregg
W6IZT

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ken K6MR
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 6:11 PM
To: Clive GM3POI <gm3p...@btinternet.com>; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

No it does not and that’s a good point. I’m pretty sure the vertical 800 feet 
away is not much of an issue, but the tower within 150’ could be a problem. The 
model is going to be difficult because there are four yagis on the tower.  Good 
project for a rainy day.
I have one other tower about 350’ away that also has multiple yagis but 
hopefully that also is far enough.

The other option is to move it to one of the other towers and change to 
horizontal polarization and up higher. N4IS seems to prefer that orientation. 
At the moment the performance is so poor that I’m thinking I did something 
wrong in the assembly.

Ken K6MR





From: Clive GM3POI<mailto:gm3p...@btinternet.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 15:03
To: 'Ken K6MR'<mailto:k...@outlook.com>
Subject: RE: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

on Locked="
Ken, When you say the EZnec model looks great does that include the other 
towers.? If not include them and reassess.
73 Clive GM3POI

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ken K6MR
Sent: 23 April 2016 18:38
To: Bob K6UJ; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

Let’s start here and see how it goes. If someone complains we’ll take it off 
line. Nothing like a public discussion to bring out the best ideas.  I changed 
the subject line so the discussion will make sense.

The 160 transmit vertical is about 800’ away. There is an 80’ tower with 
various higher band yagis on it about 150’ away.

My loop size is 12’ high, 10’ wide. 4’ between loops.  Vertical loops. The boom 
is 50’ high. The tower is near the house, but single story house so the boom is 
35’ above the roof.

The EZNec model looks great (of course). The gain models a bit low, but the RDF 
and gain test are in the right ranges. Right now the big problem is no 
directivity and it is actually noisier than the vertical. I have the adjustable 
gain pre-amp from DXE (KD9SV design) in the shack.

So that’s the background. Common mode problems would indeed be my first 
suspect.  Interested in how you handled it.

Ken K6MR

From: Bob K6UJ<mailto:k...@pacbell.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 11:00
To: topband@contesting.com<mailto:topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: The band sans noise

rue" Name="index 1"/> 
Interesting comments about the WF. I recently built one and so far it has been 
a complete failure.

Care to share the details?

Ken K6MR



From: Bob K6UJ<mailto:k...@pacbell.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 10:30
To: topband@contesting.com<mailto:topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: The band sans noise

Bill,

Sounds great !  hihihi  A lot cheaper than a Pixel too !

Until now I have kept my comments to myself about the Pixel.
I had a Pixel for a short time and sold it.
At the time I had electrical hash from one direction due to loose
hardware on a power pole.
It took forever for our utility company to fix it.  I have a Waller
Flag for receive on 160 and it was very effective at nulling out the
power pole noise.  I read all the rave reviews on the Pixel and
thought it would outperform the Flag for nulling out the noise and was
also curious how it compared to the flag on picking up 160 DX signals.
The Pixel did provide a nice null from the power pole noise but not
nearly as deep of a null as the Waller Flag.  On discriminating
160 D

Re: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

[Ken K6MR]

Yes I did put that in. I think.  I modeled the whole thing and duplicated the 
phasing line lengths and crossover at the feedpoint. Although once I get it 
down I’m going to recheck that again. After my blunder with the resistors 
there’s no telling what else I’ve done wrong.

Thanks,

Ken K6MR



From: Lee STRAHAN<mailto:k7...@msn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 18:16
To: topband@contesting.com<mailto:topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

  Ken, did you remember the 180 degree phase inversion needed on the Waller 
flag.
It will act like a very large signal level single loop if not.

Lee K7TJR

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

[Lee STRAHAN]

  Ken, did you remember the 180 degree phase inversion needed on the Waller 
flag.
It will act like a very large signal level single loop if not.

Lee K7TJR

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

[Ken K6MR]

Good idea Gregg. I suspect there may be some common mode problems.

I did discover one problem thanks to questions from K6UJ: the resistors on the 
loops need to be non-inductive and the ones I installed are not. Dumb error on 
my part. When I lower the antenna to change the resistors I will be able to get 
to the feedline connector. So that is something I can do easily.  I also have 
more ferrites so I may add some additional feedline chokes since I have to cut 
the feedline loose from the mast anyway.

Thanks,

Ken K6MR



From: Gregg W6IZT<mailto:gregg.w6i...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 17:34
To: topband@contesting.com<mailto:topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

Ken:

No directivity and noisier than the TX vertical. Perhaps you should look at 
these as two separate observations. Try disconnecting the feedline at the 
antenna. What is the noise level with the antenna disconnected and the pre-amp 
gain adjusted for 35-40 dB?

73
Gregg
W6IZT

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ken K6MR
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 6:11 PM
To: Clive GM3POI <gm3p...@btinternet.com>; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

No it does not and that’s a good point. I’m pretty sure the vertical 800 feet 
away is not much of an issue, but the tower within 150’ could be a problem. The 
model is going to be difficult because there are four yagis on the tower.  Good 
project for a rainy day.
I have one other tower about 350’ away that also has multiple yagis but 
hopefully that also is far enough.

The other option is to move it to one of the other towers and change to 
horizontal polarization and up higher. N4IS seems to prefer that orientation. 
At the moment the performance is so poor that I’m thinking I did something 
wrong in the assembly.

Ken K6MR





From: Clive GM3POI<mailto:gm3p...@btinternet.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 15:03
To: 'Ken K6MR'<mailto:k...@outlook.com>
Subject: RE: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

on Locked="
Ken, When you say the EZnec model looks great does that include the other 
towers.? If not include them and reassess.
73 Clive GM3POI

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ken K6MR
Sent: 23 April 2016 18:38
To: Bob K6UJ; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

Let’s start here and see how it goes. If someone complains we’ll take it off 
line. Nothing like a public discussion to bring out the best ideas.  I changed 
the subject line so the discussion will make sense.

The 160 transmit vertical is about 800’ away. There is an 80’ tower with 
various higher band yagis on it about 150’ away.

My loop size is 12’ high, 10’ wide. 4’ between loops.  Vertical loops. The boom 
is 50’ high. The tower is near the house, but single story house so the boom is 
35’ above the roof.

The EZNec model looks great (of course). The gain models a bit low, but the RDF 
and gain test are in the right ranges. Right now the big problem is no 
directivity and it is actually noisier than the vertical. I have the adjustable 
gain pre-amp from DXE (KD9SV design) in the shack.

So that’s the background. Common mode problems would indeed be my first 
suspect.  Interested in how you handled it.

Ken K6MR

From: Bob K6UJ<mailto:k...@pacbell.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 11:00
To: topband@contesting.com<mailto:topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: The band sans noise

rue" Name="index 1"/>  Interesting comments about the WF. I recently built one and so far it has 
> been a complete failure.
>
> Care to share the details?
>
> Ken K6MR
>
>
>
> From: Bob K6UJ<mailto:k...@pacbell.net>
> Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 10:30
> To: topband@contesting.com<mailto:topband@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: Topband: The band sans noise
>
> Bill,
>
> Sounds great !  hihihi  A lot cheaper than a Pixel too !
>
> Until now I have kept my comments to myself about the Pixel.
> I had a Pixel for a short time and sold it.
> At the time I had electrical hash from one direction due to loose
> hardware on a power pole.
> It took forever for our utility company to fix it.  I have a Waller
> Flag for receive on 160 and it was very effective at nulling out the
> power pole noise.  I read all the rave reviews on the Pixel and
> thought it would outperform the Flag for nulling out the noise and was
> also curious how it compared to the flag on picking up 160 DX signals.
> The Pixel did provide a nice null from the power pole noise but not
> nearly as deep of a null as the Waller Flag.  On discriminating
> 160 DX from the band noise level
> it was very poor indeed.  The Waller Flag way out perf

Re: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

[Gregg W6IZT]

Ken:

No directivity and noisier than the TX vertical. Perhaps you should look at 
these as two separate observations. Try disconnecting the feedline at the 
antenna. What is the noise level with the antenna disconnected and the pre-amp 
gain adjusted for 35-40 dB?

73
Gregg
W6IZT

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ken K6MR
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 6:11 PM
To: Clive GM3POI <gm3p...@btinternet.com>; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

No it does not and that’s a good point. I’m pretty sure the vertical 800 feet 
away is not much of an issue, but the tower within 150’ could be a problem. The 
model is going to be difficult because there are four yagis on the tower.  Good 
project for a rainy day.
I have one other tower about 350’ away that also has multiple yagis but 
hopefully that also is far enough.

The other option is to move it to one of the other towers and change to 
horizontal polarization and up higher. N4IS seems to prefer that orientation. 
At the moment the performance is so poor that I’m thinking I did something 
wrong in the assembly.

Ken K6MR





From: Clive GM3POI<mailto:gm3p...@btinternet.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 15:03
To: 'Ken K6MR'<mailto:k...@outlook.com>
Subject: RE: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

on Locked="
Ken, When you say the EZnec model looks great does that include the other 
towers.? If not include them and reassess.
73 Clive GM3POI

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ken K6MR
Sent: 23 April 2016 18:38
To: Bob K6UJ; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

Let’s start here and see how it goes. If someone complains we’ll take it off 
line. Nothing like a public discussion to bring out the best ideas.  I changed 
the subject line so the discussion will make sense.

The 160 transmit vertical is about 800’ away. There is an 80’ tower with 
various higher band yagis on it about 150’ away.

My loop size is 12’ high, 10’ wide. 4’ between loops.  Vertical loops. The boom 
is 50’ high. The tower is near the house, but single story house so the boom is 
35’ above the roof.

The EZNec model looks great (of course). The gain models a bit low, but the RDF 
and gain test are in the right ranges. Right now the big problem is no 
directivity and it is actually noisier than the vertical. I have the adjustable 
gain pre-amp from DXE (KD9SV design) in the shack.

So that’s the background. Common mode problems would indeed be my first 
suspect.  Interested in how you handled it.

Ken K6MR

From: Bob K6UJ<mailto:k...@pacbell.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 11:00
To: topband@contesting.com<mailto:topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: The band sans noise

rue" Name="index 1"/>  Interesting comments about the WF. I recently built one and so far it has 
> been a complete failure.
>
> Care to share the details?
>
> Ken K6MR
>
>
>
> From: Bob K6UJ<mailto:k...@pacbell.net>
> Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 10:30
> To: topband@contesting.com<mailto:topband@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: Topband: The band sans noise
>
> Bill,
>
> Sounds great !  hihihi  A lot cheaper than a Pixel too !
>
> Until now I have kept my comments to myself about the Pixel.
> I had a Pixel for a short time and sold it.
> At the time I had electrical hash from one direction due to loose 
> hardware on a power pole.
> It took forever for our utility company to fix it.  I have a Waller 
> Flag for receive on 160 and it was very effective at nulling out the 
> power pole noise.  I read all the rave reviews on the Pixel and 
> thought it would outperform the Flag for nulling out the noise and was 
> also curious how it compared to the flag on picking up 160 DX signals.
> The Pixel did provide a nice null from the power pole noise but not 
> nearly as deep of a null as the Waller Flag.  On discriminating
> 160 DX from the band noise level
> it was very poor indeed.  The Waller Flag way out performed the Pixel.
> I could hear DX stations with the
> flag and could not hear them at all on the pixel when receiving 
> stations close to the noise level.
> The Pixel would be suited for someone in an apartment or with a small 
> lot and doesn't have the room for a larger receiving antenna like the 
> Waller Flag.  It is a compromise receiving antenna but we have to work 
> with what we have as far as room for antennas.
>
> 73,
> Bob
> K6UJ
>
>
>
> On 4/23/16 9:45 AM, william radice wrote:
>>  I have an antenna of very similar design and performance. It is 
>> an all aluminum lawn chair on a pole.
>> BILL
>>
>> On 4/22/2016 1:42 PM, Rob Atkinson wrote:
>&

Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

[Ken K6MR]

Let’s start here and see how it goes. If someone complains we’ll take it off 
line. Nothing like a public discussion to bring out the best ideas.  I changed 
the subject line so the discussion will make sense.

The 160 transmit vertical is about 800’ away. There is an 80’ tower with 
various higher band yagis on it about 150’ away.

My loop size is 12’ high, 10’ wide. 4’ between loops.  Vertical loops. The boom 
is 50’ high. The tower is near the house, but single story house so the boom is 
35’ above the roof.

The EZNec model looks great (of course). The gain models a bit low, but the RDF 
and gain test are in the right ranges. Right now the big problem is no 
directivity and it is actually noisier than the vertical. I have the adjustable 
gain pre-amp from DXE (KD9SV design) in the shack.

So that’s the background. Common mode problems would indeed be my first 
suspect.  Interested in how you handled it.

Ken K6MR

From: Bob K6UJ
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 11:00
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: The band sans noise

rue" Name="index 1"/>  Interesting comments about the WF. I recently built one and so far it has 
> been a complete failure.
>
> Care to share the details?
>
> Ken K6MR
>
>
>
> From: Bob K6UJ
> Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 10:30
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: The band sans noise
>
> Bill,
>
> Sounds great !  hihihi  A lot cheaper than a Pixel too !
>
> Until now I have kept my comments to myself about the Pixel.
> I had a Pixel for a short time and sold it.
> At the time I had electrical hash from one direction due to loose
> hardware on a power pole.
> It took forever for our utility company to fix it.  I have a Waller Flag
> for receive on 160 and it
> was very effective at nulling out the power pole noise.  I read all the
> rave reviews on the Pixel and
> thought it would outperform the Flag for nulling out the noise and was
> also curious how it compared
> to the flag on picking up 160 DX signals.  The Pixel did provide a nice
> null from the power pole noise
> but not nearly as deep of a null as the Waller Flag.  On discriminating
> 160 DX from the band noise level
> it was very poor indeed.  The Waller Flag way out performed the Pixel.
> I could hear DX stations with the
> flag and could not hear them at all on the pixel when receiving stations
> close to the noise level.
> The Pixel would be suited for someone in an apartment or with a small
> lot and doesn't have the room
> for a larger receiving antenna like the Waller Flag.  It is a compromise
> receiving antenna but we have
> to work with what we have as far as room for antennas.
>
> 73,
> Bob
> K6UJ
>
>
>
> On 4/23/16 9:45 AM, william radice wrote:
>>  I have an antenna of very similar design and performance. It is an
>> all aluminum lawn chair on a pole.
>> BILL
>>
>> On 4/22/2016 1:42 PM, Rob Atkinson wrote:
>>> Throw bricks all you want to the end of time but you'll never change
>>> the fact that we tested that antenna and saw its performance first
>>> hand; The preamp was designed by Jack Smith at CliftonLabs..I'm sure
>>> he'll enjoy reading your comments and get a good laugh.
>>>
>>> 73
>>>
>>> Rob
>>> K5UJ
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:26 AM, JC  wrote:
 SORRY am not getting into this PR..   PIXEL loop is a low RDF and LOW
 performance receiving antenna, it is really snake oil.

 I'm out of this discussion.

 Regards

 JC


 In tests, the Pixel magnetic loop provided at least 20 dB null off the
 sides.  From my experience, that is much better "filtering" than what
 would be had with a horizontal loop.   Of course it isn't all in the
 antenna itself--a great deal of the success comes from the special preamp
 designed for use with the antenna.
 <<<
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>>> _
>>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>> _
>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>
> _
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> _
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>

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Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[Tom W8JI]

I would just like to understand what Tom is saying. I almost think he had
noise figure confused with noise temperature at one point.

Correction to my previous e-mail, first sentence in second paragraph.
should have said "When I studied preamps and NF ~30 years ago, I thought
the NF of the first active device (preamp) was the all-important thing".



With proper conversion, noise figure, MDS, and noise temperature are 
interchangeable in overall use or meaning.


People in this thread are working in noise figure and gain when considering 
preamplifiers, so I stayed there.


40 dB is a whole lot of gain in front of a normal receiver. To me, it looks 
like the 40 dB is unrealistic unless the receiver is lacking normal gain. In 
a common receiver, if 40dB gain is required, the antenna system is going to 
be more difficult to deal with than almost all can handle.


I'm only specifically speaking about the amount of gain. Don't read more 
into this than specifically what I am saying. (Which people have a tendency 
to do.)


73, Tom 


_
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Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[Mike Waters]

On a totally unrelated note, I cascaded two preamps to get 40 dB of gain
about 30 years ago. They were identical circuits, both using MGF-1202 GaAs
FETs.

The input was a Zener diode noise generator. The second preamp fed a 3dB
splitter which fed two inputs of a low-loss passive nulling circuit I
designed. The output of that fed a 2m to 10m RX converter, which fed 10
meter receivers.

That nulling circuit nulled all of that noise, much to our delight. But
it's not practical on 160m. :-)

And the preamps' piston trimmers could be adjusted either for maximum gain
or for lowest NF, but NOT at the same setting.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com
_
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Topband: Waller Flag

[Lee K7TJR]

I must be missing something.

The noise in a 50 ohm resistor is -174 dbm per root Hz at ambient temp.

Lets take 100Hz bandwidth for the receiver and the noise becomes -154 dbm or
.0045 uVolts

Lets add a PERFECT amplifier of 40 db. The noise output of the 40 db amp is
then -114 dbm or 0.446 uVolts

S-2 on a receiver with perfect S meter is .4 uVolts so the RX should set at
S-2 normally.

As I understand it the Waller antenna produces about -45 db of gain over
some reference.  (45 db Is 177 time voltage)

So in order to simply match the noise level of .446 uVolts with a signal you
need a signal impinging on this antenna that would produce 79 uVolts in an
antenna similar to the reference.

To me a signal of 79 uVolts is something over S-9 on a receiver. Would a
simple dipole or inverted Vee antenna with essentially no gain produce a
whopping signal from the same source. Of course it would pick up noise as
well but I would think it would not be of an equal S-9 level.

 

  Where did I go wrong in these figures. I must be astray somewhere.

 

Lee  K7TJR  OR

_
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Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[JC]

Lee

Yes, this is confusing as it can get. Any passive component adds noise, any
active components adds noise. Power noise, and you only can add power noise
converting it in equivalent temperature in Kelvin degree.

The antenna itself is another confusing thing, any antenna has directivity
gain and power gain, when the efficiency in near 100% the power gain is the
same as directivity gain and most just say antenna gain, this assumes power
factor 1, no loss. 

EZENEC gain calculation for loops near ground is not perfect as well, If you
build a loop and measure the mv/m you find a surprised difference between
EZNEC power gain. Directivity gain is really RDF by definition so the HWF
and VWF has 11.5 directivity gain and let's say a very low power gain, the
system have losses.

The receiving systems starts at the preamp. Even if it's near the antenna,
far from the radio, or near the radio. The calculation is the same. 

The S meter in most analog radio measures the AGC, in SDR radios it can be
calibrates in dBm at the input of the preamp. That can be consider operator
preferences.

Power noise, power gain, voltage gain can be very confusing because the real
input or output impedance .

The discussion is really about the signal to noise ratio near the noise
floor of the receiver system. If you use you S meter at the input of the
preamp or after the preamp, it does not change the signal to noise ratio.

Small loops also have thermal noise itself and can be a limit factor as
well. 

>>
So in order to simply match the noise level of .446 uVolts with a signal you
need a signal impinging on this antenna that would produce 79 uVolts in an
antenna similar to the reference.
<<

I really don't understand you point can you elaborate it?


Regards
JC
N4IS

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Lee K7TJR
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2015 4:01 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Waller Flag

I must be missing something.

The noise in a 50 ohm resistor is -174 dbm per root Hz at ambient temp.

Lets take 100Hz bandwidth for the receiver and the noise becomes -154 dbm or
.0045 uVolts

Lets add a PERFECT amplifier of 40 db. The noise output of the 40 db amp is
then -114 dbm or 0.446 uVolts

S-2 on a receiver with perfect S meter is .4 uVolts so the RX should set at
S-2 normally.

As I understand it the Waller antenna produces about -45 db of gain over
some reference.  (45 db Is 177 time voltage)


To me a signal of 79 uVolts is something over S-9 on a receiver. Would a
simple dipole or inverted Vee antenna with essentially no gain produce a
whopping signal from the same source. Of course it would pick up noise as
well but I would think it would not be of an equal S-9 level.

 

  Where did I go wrong in these figures. I must be astray somewhere.

 

Lee  K7TJR  OR

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Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 9/8/2015 1:01 PM, Lee  K7TJR wrote:


To me a signal of 79 uVolts is something over S-9 on a receiver. Would a
simple dipole or inverted Vee antenna with essentially no gain produce a
whopping signal from the same source. Of course it would pick up noise as
well but I would think it would not be of an equal S-9 level.


FWIW, my 90 foot 160 meter vertical routinely produces 79 uVolts from
DX signals.  Even FT5ZM on Amsterdam Island was in this range.
Stateside big guns at 1000+ miles produce much more than this,
20 to 40 dB more.

Rick N6RK
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Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[Hugh Valentine]

Pardon me for chiming in on this Waller flag discussion as I am probably the 
least qualified person on Topband to discuss technical issues.

But, I do a lot of Trial and Error-ing and use some of the wisdom shared here.  
Plus I am a true Ham O Holic and always want to improve my ability to work DX 
on Low Bands.  And need to keep improving as I only use a highly compromised TX 
antennaa lowly Bird Feeder.

But, I am blessed to live 70’ from a Salt Marsh, on an Island with all 
Utilities/Cable underground and “almost” No Noise. Even though I have probably 
the Lowest 160 Antenna (35’Vertical) I do manage to hear and work long haul Top 
Band DX.

The last 2 years or so I converted from some EWEs(Stealth) to a K9AY Loop 
Array.  This helped boost signals from the quiet.  I next added Two K9YC 
chokes...one 15-20’ from the K9AY feed point, and one in the shack, just before 
the K9AY control box.  Thanks K9YC..Quieter.
So the Top Band Reflector helped me.  During the quieter winter months, most 
mornings on top Band, I can use both the K9AY Preamp and the K3 preamps 
together and have S0 or S1 flashing noise on the K3.  
In monitoring the Low Band Chat, I can most times hear what the Waller Flag 
Guys NX4D and N4IS are reporting,(depending on prop).  I occasionally hear 
things no one can hear...I think just based upon the fact that I have little or 
no noiseIf I get a little bit of noise from a local fluorescent or 
neighbor’s TVjust a little will wipe out a super weak signal and I lose my 
edge/advantage.  I think a lot of weak signals are there for most, just in the 
noise.

I believe those K9YC chokes helped me a lot.

Now, I hear you guys talk about “Detuning” nearby antennas to further reduce 
noise. My K9AY Loop is only 20’ from my “Birdfeeder” TX antenna. (I have a 
Multi-Core K9YC Choke on the Feed Point)
I have a Steppir Vertical which is 1’ from the horizontal portion of the “Bird 
Feeder”-(And 15’ from the K9AY).  And a final OCF Dipole wire is about 15’ from 
the TX Antenna(BF).  Thinks are close.

Question:  Should I look into “Detuning” These other antennae? to further 
reduce noise...

What DX I work is because I have less noise than most and I can hear...But I 
sure need some more advantage to help make up for the old bird Feeder.  I don’t 
work this stuff using power or a big TX antenna.

What the experts are talking about here is reducing Noise, which interferes 
with our ability to hear super weak signals, then Super Amplifiying the weak 
signal to stand out over the noise.  That is my take.

How do I know if “detuning” my TX antennas will help?  and How do I do that?
I can’t put up a Tower or Waller.  I am just an uneducated Redneck Swamp Boy 
tryin’ to make a Biscuit and survive.
And comments appreciated.

I am reading and enjoying these discussions and appreciate the expertise of the 
participants.  Thanks for your help.

73
Val
N4RJ

Want to place your ad here?
Advertise on United Online
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/55ef7ddb4a0167dda7a25st04vuc
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Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[Lee K7TJR]

After putting my conclusions here and a 2 1/2 hour power outage I had an aha
moment and found I did not account for  40 db properly.
  The dipole without a preamp in the same location is just a few db higher
than the Waller with preamp  and would not produce the signals I was
thinking of.
Lee   K7TJR






_
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Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[Tom W8JI]

Tom,  I'm afraid I disagree but agree with some of  that, I am using a 
43dB
gain preamp since 2010 with not a single failure yet, but I understand 
your
point. It is so delicate to implement that most of fellow that try it 
fail.

Even aluminum enclosure does not shield it enough, 40 dB gain is 10.000
voltage gain, it needs a dual shield with steel to cut magnetic field, the
feed lines must be decoupled over 80 dB, relays must be 100dB or more in
isolation, and much more details that I won't cover.

It is not a weekend project.



JC,

The problem is gain and noise figure, not shielding.

Let's assume a receiver with 250 Hz bandwidth has a MDS (3dB S+S/N) of -135 
dBm. This is a 15 dB receiver noise figure.


A 0.5 dB noise figure front end amplifier with NO other losses would 
produce -149.5 dB MDS. That is the absolute maximum MDS sensitivity 
obtainable with 250 Hz BW and 0.5dB total input noise figure.


If we include the receiver's noise figure, 14.5 dBm gain would result is a 
system composite noise figure of 3.44 dB. Increasing amplifier gain (with no 
change in amplifier 0.5 dB noise figure) results in the following system 
composite noise figures:


14.5dB = 3.44 dB
20 dB =  1.55 dB
25 dB =  0.86 dB
30 dB =  0.62 dB
35 dB = 0.54 dB
40 dB = 0.51 dB

At someplace around 20-25 dB, you get into system limits. The improvement 
from 30 dB to 40 dB is only 0.11 dB. No one will notice that.


This of course varies with the receiver, but few receivers are worse than 
this example.


Let's say we have an input stage NF of .5 dB with 15 dB gain. In order to 
have a cascade NF of .7dB the second stage has to have about a 2 dB NF.


All of this is peanuts.   A .6dB noise figure is a 3 dB MDS of -149.4 
dBm, while a 2 dB NF is a MDS of -148 dBm with 250 Hz BW.


There is a point where inevitable system flaws make using an antenna with 
such negative gain to require less than 1 dB NF impossible for "copy this 
plan".  This is why Beazley's out-of-phase small horizontal elements were 
mostly met with didn't work. The problem with models is we can build perfect 
systems that we cannot repeat in the real world.


Again my example of the small commercial loop I have. It limits by loop 
internal noise by many  dB at my location, and common mode on the cable is 
very evident. If I moved the same antenna to a location with 20 dB more 
external ambient noise floor, it would limit on external noise.


It seems unlikely most compact antennas are being used in locations so quiet 
they need 30 dB gain, or .6 dB NF.   If they had room, they would not have 
as much ambient site noise.


I'm not being disagreeable, just describing the practical limits.

73 Tom 


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Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[K1FZ-Bruce]

Above and beyond all the dialogue, JC is making these antennas work. 
Time after time he is working stations that only a few with large 
antenna systems copy. 
 

73
Bruce-K1FZ
 
 
 
 
 

It seems unlikely most compact antennas are being used in locations so quiet
they need 30 dB gain, or .6 dB NF. If they had room, they would not have
as much ambient site noise. 

I'm not being disagreeable, just describing the practical limits. 


73 Tom

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Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[Mike Waters]

There seems to be something that I'm missing in this preamp NF discussion.

When I studied preamps and NF ~30 years ago, I thought the NF of the system
of the first active device was the all-important thing. Whatever losses
were between the antenna feedpoint and the preamp input (coax, connectors,
relays) added to that.

Once that preamp brought up the S+N above a certain point, the NF of the
amplifiers  downstream were not near as important.

Very low NFs, less than 0.5 dB, are easily obtainable with everything at
room temperature. (I used GaAs FETs at 144 MHz, but there are even better
devices today with lower NFs.)

A couple of papers I just downloaded and skimmed over seemed to reinforce
that.

Look at the last three slides with screen shots of AppCAD in NoiseCalc mode
at
http://ve2zaz.net/Presentations/Downloads/VE2ZAZ_EME_Presentation.pdf
and the paper at
http://dpmc.unige.ch/dubus/8804-2.pdf
There's much more to read on Google (I searched for *noise figure eme)* and
in my library, but I still have the flu and I'm done for now.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com
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Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[Mike Waters]

There is no question in my mind that he is, Bruce.

I would just like to understand what Tom is saying. I almost think he had
noise figure confused with noise temperature at one point.

Correction to my previous e-mail, first sentence in second paragraph.
should have said "When I studied preamps and NF ~30 years ago, I thought
the NF of the first active device (preamp) was the all-important thing".

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 12:47 PM, K1FZ-Bruce  wrote:

>
> Above and beyond all the dialogue, JC is making these antennas work. Time
> after time he is working stations that only a few with large antenna
> systems copy.
>
_
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Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[Nick Hall-Patch]

And if you look at US Patent 2,247,743, it 
appears that Harold Beverage conceived of a horizontal Flag around 1941.


best wishes,

Nick


At 21:52 06-09-15, you wrote:
Bruce wrote on Sept 6. Snip < Check it out 
http://www.qsl.net/k4fk/presentations/WF-receiver-antennas-SFDXAs.pdf  
> Bruce, ref to the link above there is a gap 
in the "History of the Flag Antenna" The 
earliest fef. to the Terminate loop  I have 
found is in Keen’s Wireless Direction Finding 
1927 Ed. Page 75. Keen describes a two turn 
resistance terminated loop used by Societe 
Francaicse Radio-Electrique.  It resembles the 
K9AY and uses a similar operation to create a 
cardiode. 73 Andrew Ikin G8LUG _ 
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband



_
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Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[Jim Brown]

I find them at hamfests, typically for a buck apiece. I've also seen 
suggestions that they can be found at thrift shops.


73, Jim K9YC

On Mon,9/7/2015 5:08 AM, James Rodenkirch wrote:
Any suggestions, Jim, on where to find small, inexpensive linear 
supplies to replace the wall warts? 


_
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Topband: Waller Flag Question

[Paul Christensen]

> "I've replaced all of the SMPS blocks that came in my door with vintage 

linear supplies (and some are vintage linear supplies float-charging 

sealed lead acid batteries. 73, Jim K9YC"

 

Same here.  For wall-mounted power supplies, Jameco has an excellent
selection of regulated and non-regulated linear wall supplies.  Prices
typically range between USD $10 - $15.  All wall-mount SMPS in my house have
been replaced with these.   Jameco sells both SMPS and linear types so be
careful with your selection.  For higher current, look to their selection of
linear desktop blocks.  These are the type with cabling on both ends of the
block that are similar to the style used on laptop PCs.

 

Despite my dislike for Anderson Powerpole (APP) connectors, I do use them as
an in-line adapter if the supplied connector at the end of the new wall
supply is not the same as required on the appliance (e.g., 2.1 mm where
2.5mm is needed)  - or if the appliance is hard-wired to the supply.  I find
it more convenient to use the APP as an in-line splice than solder a new
coaxial DC connector on the cable end.

 

For even higher current in the 5A-15A class, consider open-frame, linear OEM
supplies from PowerOne, Condor, and International Power, available on-line
through Mouser and other industrial suppliers of electronic components.
These supplies require your own AC input cabling and fuse protection. 

 

Paul, W9AC

 

 

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Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[JC]

Art

I don't know where this coming from ,but the gain you need for a VWF modest
size is 20db for vertical polarization and for horizontal HWF you need 40db
on 160m, on 80m divide this by 2, you need only 20 dB  and on 40m 10 dB a
NORTON preamp is enough. All situations you need a band pass filter.

The WF change gain with high above ground but the RDF and  elevation angle
does not change, only the gain change, for 160m, changing the antenna height
120 ft. to 90 ft. the gain drops 2 dB, from 90 to 60 the gain drops 3 dB
more, and from 60 to 30 ft. 5 dB more, do for 160m HWF at 120ft the gain
drops 10 dB for a 30 ft. high HWF. 

KD9SV sells a preamplifier that I recommend, it is special designed for
WF's, check DXE page.

You can check some WF results on Doug page, NX4D. I heard over 295 countries
since 2006 using WF's, Doug heard over 300 and worked 295 on 160 since 2003,
both of us live in subdivisions and we use a 40 dB gain preamp with tuned
input and band pass filters after it.

http://nx4d10.wix.com/waller-flag

Detuning the tower or TX vertical antenna is  a " MUST " for VWF. Not a
problem for HWV. Inverter V also needs to be detuned in both cases. I
recommend don't waste your time if detuning is not on top of you to-do list.

Remove common node noise with chokes should be the second on the list,
Antenna and preamp is the last thing to get going.

Regards
JC
N4IS 

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Arthur
Delibert
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2015 1:40 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Waller Flag Question

The on-line materials about Waller Flags says that a modest size WF would
need about 40 dB of gain to boost the signal to a usable level.  One of the
postings says that cascading two preamps of 20 dB each seems to add extra
noise, and they talk about developmental work being done on a single preamp
of 40 dB.  

Is there now such a 40 dB preamp?  Is it made commercially?  Alternatively,
are there plans on-line somewhere?  Has someone actually used it in a
high-RF urban/suburban area, with multiple 50 kW AM BC stations?  With what
results?

Many thanks.

Art Delibert
KB3FJO
  
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Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[JC]

>>
At -140 dBm and 250 Hz noise bandwidth, the system would require a 1 dB
noise figure front end.  That's about 35 deg K noise temperature.
>>>
 
Tom is as usual 100% right, the RX system gain should be near 1 dB, it means
the preamp at 1.8 MHz should be .5 dB NF  the input filter and the feed line
< then .5 dB att. Together, not each. 
 

To  make things more complicated, when there is no atmospheric noise, like
we have in some winter days, the band noise can drop to 100K, and at that
point the gain of the WF and the NF of the system should be designed to  no
more than 3 dB deterioration  on signal to noise ratio, it means the 1 dB is
not enough, the solution for that is a bigger WF.

>>
Besides that, if the gain is so far negative the coaxial cable will easily
become more of an antenna than the thing we call an antenna.
<<

This is most common problem for all flag . EWE; WF and low gain antennas.
The only way to overcome this is using good quality twist par UNSHILDED
cable, or choke the cable as  much possible. If you know what you are doing.
However detuning any structure or antenna at the same frequency is a must,
it can deteriorate the directivity of the RX antenna to make it useless. No
free beef here.
>>

40 dB gain in front of a receiver is pure fantasy, unless the receiver is
dead as a door nail.
<<  

Tom,  I'm afraid I disagree but agree with some of  that, I am using a 43dB
gain preamp since 2010 with not a single failure yet, but I understand your
point. It is so delicate to implement that most of fellow that try it fail.
Even aluminum enclosure does not shield it enough, 40 dB gain is 10.000
voltage gain, it needs a dual shield with steel to cut magnetic field, the
feed lines must be decoupled over 80 dB, relays must be 100dB or more in
isolation, and much more details that I won't cover.

It is not a weekend project. 


Regards
JC
N4IS

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Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[JC]

Andrew

Very interesting, that is my presentation, but my updated early terminated loop 
reference was from Harold H. Beverage patent applied 1938 and issue 1941 owned 
by RCA

U.S. Patent 2,247,743 Jul 1, 1941 Broadband Uni-directional Shortwave Antenna

http://www.google.com/patents/US2247743?dq=%22harold+h+beverage%22#PPA3,M1

Yes, the HWF is really a Beverage antenna. Hehehe.

Would you send me more information so I can update my History of the Flag 
antenna?

JC
N4IS

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Ikin
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2015 5:53 PM
To: k...@myfairpoint.net; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

Bruce wrote on Sept 6.

Snip <
Check it out
http://www.qsl.net/k4fk/presentations/WF-receiver-antennas-SFDXAs.pdf  >

Bruce, ref to the link above there is a gap in the "History of the Flag 
Antenna" The earliest fef. to the Terminate loop  I have found is in Keen’s 
Wireless Direction Finding 1927 Ed. Page 75. Keen describes a two turn 
resistance terminated loop used by Societe Francaicse Radio-Electrique.  It 
resembles the K9AY and uses a similar operation to create a cardiode.

73

Andrew Ikin

G8LUG



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Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[Tom W8JI]

Thank you, JC:

I don't know where this coming from ,but the gain you need for a VWF 
modest
size is 20db for vertical polarization and for horizontal HWF you need 
40db

on 160m, on 80m divide this by 2, you need only 20 dB  and on 40m 10 dB a
NORTON preamp is enough. All situations you need a band pass filter.



20 dB is a realistic gain figure.

The very low sensitivity of horizontal polarization, because at low heights 
in wavelength the earth "shorts the electric field", and because at low 
heights the earth's reflection nulls the antenna peak response, causes great 
difficulty.


If local site noise is high, and if care is taken in balance, the horizontal 
system can be built but 40 dB gain is unlikely to be needed unless the 
receiver is dead.


The reason is pretty simple. Most receivers are in the minus 130-140 dBm 
noise floor range. If you added 40 dB gain to that, the noise figure of the 
required front end would be an impossible negative noise figure in the -20 
dB or more noise figure range. Of course anything less than 1 dB is very 
difficult, and below 1/2 dB starts to be impossible. Even if you obtain that 
noise figure, cable leakages and common mode would overwhelm the low antenna 
level.


20 dB is about the limit for most receivers, although a dead receiver could 
use 40.  If the receiver is stone deaf, 40 dB would allow a workable noise 
figure at the front end.:-)


This low sensitivity is why K6STI's antenna met with such limited reports of 
success.  If the site is very noisy with local distant noise, then the 
antenna's noise floor is high enough to limit system noise floor. Otherwise, 
the cables and input amplifier would set noise floor.


I have a similar thing here with a commercial loop antenna. Even though 
vertically polarized, it is noise limited at my location by internal 
amplifier noise.  Now if I move it into a noisy location, it limits by 
outside noise.


No matter what we try to do, we are not going to have a 0 dB noise figure. 
When we start making the antenna sensitivity so low it requires gain with a 
normal receiver so unrealistic that it limits on the front end noise, it is 
useless. What good would seeing the S meter at S-2 or S-4 from amplifier 
noise do?  That is what the popular commercial loop I have does. In a quiet 
location, it limits on its own internal amplifier noise. Six dB less gain 
does not change S/N ratio one bit.


We should all question systems that need 40dB with normal receivers. 20 dB 
is more rational.


73 Tom 


_
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Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[JC]

"" A similar observation was made 20 years ago by Brian Beezley, K6STI, in a
QST article titled "A Receiving Antenna that Rejects Local Noise" 
(September, 1995, page 33):  I've been looking around for something that
might work better than my present antenna, and I see good reports about the
Waller flag from people who are actually using it.  So I'll give it a try
and see how well the theory matches up with actual practice.  That's what
ham radio is all about -- no? 

Here one of the last understood subject on radio and antenna work, most of
all paper about  antenna. RF and propagation on MF and low band are valid
only for vertical signals. 

For horizontal signal there is a major difference in the way Fields interact
with Matter. If are an Engineer or someone that wants to give a try I
recommend the book Electromagnetic Waves and Radiation Systems  Edward C
Jordan and Keith G Balmain  page 277 Chapter 9  and 372 Chapter 11 Antenna
fundaments.

There is no horizontal signal near the ground, there is no ground waive or
surface waive near the ground. So any or all manmade noise only can
propagate by vertical surface waive or ground waive. 

Increasing the directivity of the RX antenna you can increase signal do
noise ration my the same directivity gain. However is you turn the antenna
horizontal the attenuation on vertical propagated noises is huge!.

A low dipole on 160m,as example,  does not receive any horizontal signal!,
the only useful signal arrives vertical in the direction of the wire, same
case of beverage antenna. 

Check the excellent article by Kai KE4PT on QEX and QST about best high for
horizontal antennas. You will see that near the ground the attenuating is
severe near 4 decay's.

http://www.arrl.org/files/file/QEX_Next_Issue/May-Jun_2011/QEX_5_11_Siwiak.p
df

Using the antenna as polarization filter is the only solution to increase
signal do noise ratio in urban areas.

PY2XB lives downtown S Paulo, Fred is using WF for low bands and when he
detunes his inverted V the noise on the WF drops 2S unis on 80m. 

Tom is right about the 40 db gain, gain  means nothing, the NF of the system
is the only thing the matters.
Decrease your RF gain and increase the AF gain  that you will hear better
than most preamp's can help.

N4IS
JC



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Re: Topband: Waller Flag Preamp

[Dennis W0JX via Topband]

Guys,
Gary, KD9SV, has developed a very good 40 db preamp just for the Waller Flag 
that covers both 160 and 80M bands.

73, Dennis W0JX

--- On Sat, 9/5/15, kd9sv <kd...@comcast.net> wrote:

> From: kd9sv <kd...@comcast.net>
> Subject: RE: Topband: Waller Flag
> To: "'Dennis W0JX'" <w...@yahoo.com>
> Date: Saturday, September 5, 2015, 7:44 PM
> Dennis, in case you have
> an interest in building a WF I have a new preamp
> especially for that type of antenna...80/160
> with adjustable gain and max of
> 40db and it
> is "rock solid" with absolutely no tendencies
> toward
> oscillations...73, have a good
> season, de gary
> 
> The picture
> is with shield removed which normally covers the 5
> FET's
> 
> -Original
> Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com]
> On Behalf Of Dennis
> W0JX via Topband
> Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2015 6:57 PM
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Topband: Waller Flag
> 
> The Waller Flag is a very good
> TB RX antenna. Most of the time it is
> installed in the vertical plane as it was
> originally developed and is made
> rotatable.
> It can be as low as 20 feet off the ground although some are
> put
> on taller towers. N4IS has also
> developed a horizontal version, basically
> the same antenna, to respond to horizontally
> polarized signals. However, the
> antenna
> needs to be quite high to be effective, at least 70 feet
> and
> preferably up at 90 to 100 feet to work
> well.
> 
> 73, Dennis
> W0JX
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> 
_
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Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[Mike Waters]

Maybe his secret is a preamp cooled with liquid helium! ;-)

Seriously, there are preamps operating at 70 degrees F (for example) that
have less than a 1 dB NF at VHF. They are usually mounted at the feedpoint
of a high gain array, because of feedline loss.

Today, I have the type of terrible cold (hay fever?) that seriously
interferes with one's thinking but I still have an open mind about this
subject. Waller Flags fascinate me. I'm in learning mode and watching this
thread closely.

>From everything I have read in the past about the WF, it'll equal a
one-wavelength Beverage in only 30' of space. And it's tough to rotate any
Beverage for 160. How a WF would compare with my Beverages in this quiet
rural location, I can't say.

73, Mike



On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Tom W8JI  wrote:

> ... a modest size WF would need about 40 dB of gain
>>
>
> ... would require a 1 dB noise figure front end.  That's about 35 deg K
> noise temperature.
>
> 40 dB gain in front of a receiver is pure fantasy,...
>
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Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[Jim Brown]

On Sun,9/6/2015 4:31 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:
Thanks for the insights.  I have no doubt the theory is correct.  My 
sense, though, is that in the denser suburbs, we live in a "fog" of 
local radio noise, generated by the scores of digital and other 
devices that surround us. 


The sad thing is that many of us have a score of noise sources in our 
own homes, and more in the homes that surround us. I have at least that 
many products that came with SMPS wall warts or equivalent, and many of 
the products themselves are potential noise sources.


I've replaced all of the SMPS blocks that came in my door with vintage 
linear supplies (and some are vintage linear supplies float-charging 
sealed lead acid batteries. Both the supplies and batteries are chosen 
so that the battery doesn't get overcharged. And I have a "poor man's 
UPS" in the form of this setup. I've also choked cables coming from 
noisy gear to kill common mode current on those cables that could 
otherwise radiate.


73, Jim K9YC


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[Andrew Ikin]

Bruce wrote on Sept 6.

Snip <
Check it out
http://www.qsl.net/k4fk/presentations/WF-receiver-antennas-SFDXAs.pdf  >

Bruce, ref to the link above there is a gap in the "History of the Flag 
Antenna" The earliest fef. to the Terminate loop  I have found is in Keen’s 
Wireless Direction Finding 1927 Ed. Page 75. Keen describes a two turn 
resistance terminated loop used by Societe Francaicse Radio-Electrique.  It 
resembles the K9AY and uses a similar operation to create a cardiode.


73

Andrew Ikin

G8LUG



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[Tom W8JI]

Thanks for the insights.  I have no doubt the theory is correct.  My sense, 
though, is that in the denser suburbs, we live in a "fog" of local radio 
noise, generated by the scores of digital and other devices that surround 
us.  A similar observation was made 20 years ago by Brian Beezley, K6STI, in 
a  QST article titled "A Receiving Antenna that Rejects Local Noise" 
(September, 1995, page 33):  I've been looking around for something that 
might work better than my present antenna, and I see good reports about the 
Waller flag from people who are actually using it.  So I'll give it a try 
and see how well the theory matches up with actual practice.  That's what 
ham radio is all about -- no? 


You said earlier:


The on-line materials about Waller Flags says that a modest size WF would
need about 40 dB of gain to boost the signal to a usable level.  One of
the postings says that cascading two preamps of 20 dB each seems to add
extra noise, and they talk about developmental work being done on a single
preamp of 40 dB.




I'm not sure where "need about 40 dB of gain to boost the signal to a usable 
level" comes from.


40dB is an unworkable amount of gain, unless the basic receiver is deaf. 
Here is an example:


An Elecraft K3 has about -138 dB noise floor with preamp on.  40 dB more 
gain, or -178 dBm noise floor, would require a preamp noise figure of  -18dB 
at 250 Hz BW and -24 dB NF at 1 kHz BW by my calculations. That's 100 times 
less noise than no noise.   :)


Maybe the reason people can't get two preamps cascaded to work isn't because 
it is two separate amplifiers, but they are trying to do something 
unnecessary and impossible? It seems to me 20-25dB would be more than enough 
for most receivers.


73 Tom 


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: Waller Flag Question

[K1FZ-Bruce]

It can be done. JC, N4IS has been doing it and has the DX contacts that 
most can not hear.. The proof as they say "is in the pudding"  He uses 
balanced twisted pair feed lines with  pre-amps, and other noise 
reduction techniques.. 
 

Check it out
http://www.qsl.net/k4fk/presentations/WF-receiver-antennas-SFDXAs.pdf
 
73
Bruce-K1FZ

On Sun, 6 Sep 2015 19:53:14 +0100, Andrew Ikin  wrote:

  Art Delibert wrote on Set. 6

snip

Art, The Wellbrook FLG100LN Flag Head amplifier may offer a partial
solution to the gain and IMD issue with multiple 50kW AM Tx. The amp. has a
23dB gain and a near to zero NF. The current production has an OIP3 of
+49dBm and OIP2 of +90dBm. Additional 17dB gain in the shack could be
afforded with a Dxeng RPA-1. 


Unfortunately, the Website details for the FLG100LN have not been updated to
reflect the new design. Basically the new FLG100LN is the ALA100LN Loop
amplifier with an 800 Ohm input matching/ Isolation transformer. 


73

Andrew Ikin
G8LUG

_
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_
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Topband: Waller Flag Question

[Arthur Delibert]

The on-line materials about Waller Flags says that a modest size WF would need 
about 40 dB of gain to boost the signal to a usable level.  One of the postings 
says that cascading two preamps of 20 dB each seems to add extra noise, and 
they talk about developmental work being done on a single preamp of 40 dB.  

Is there now such a 40 dB preamp?  Is it made commercially?  Alternatively, are 
there plans on-line somewhere?  Has someone actually used it in a high-RF 
urban/suburban area, with multiple 50 kW AM BC stations?  With what results?

Many thanks.

Art Delibert
KB3FJO
  
_
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Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[Andrew Ikin]

Art Delibert wrote on Set. 6

snip would need about 40 dB of gain to boost the signal to a usable level.  One 
of the postings says that cascading two preamps of 20 dB each seems to add 
extra noise, and they talk about developmental work being done on a single 
preamp of 40 dB.


Is there now such a 40 dB preamp?  Is it made commercially?  Alternatively, 
are there plans on-line somewhere?  Has someone actually used it in a 
high-RF urban/suburban area, with multiple 50 kW AM BC stations?  With what 
results?>



Art, The Wellbrook FLG100LN  Flag Head amplifier may offer a partial 
solution to the gain and IMD issue with multiple 50kW AM Tx. The amp. has a 
23dB gain and a near to zero NF. The current production has an OIP3 of 
+49dBm and OIP2 of +90dBm. Additional 17dB gain in the shack could be 
afforded with a Dxeng RPA-1.


Unfortunately, the Website details for the FLG100LN have not been updated to 
reflect the new design. Basically the new FLG100LN is the ALA100LN Loop 
amplifier with an 800 Ohm input matching/ Isolation transformer.


73

Andrew Ikin
G8LUG 



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[Tom W8JI]

The on-line materials about Waller Flags says that a modest size WF would 
need about 40 dB of gain to boost the signal to a usable level.  One of 
the postings says that cascading two preamps of 20 dB each seems to add 
extra noise, and they talk about developmental work being done on a single 
preamp of 40 dB.


Is there now such a 40 dB preamp?  Is it made commercially? 
Alternatively, are there plans on-line somewhere?  Has someone actually 
used it in a high-RF urban/suburban area, with multiple 50 kW AM BC 
stations?  With what results?




At some point we have to be realistic.

A typical receiver is somewhere in the -130 dBm sensitivity range, depending 
on bandwidth and other things.


At -140 dBm and 250 Hz noise bandwidth, the system would require a 1 dB 
noise figure front end.  That's about 35 deg K noise temperature.


If you need a 40 dB amplifier (or even close to 20dB) into a normal good 
receiver, you will never get the noise temperature of things in front cool 
enough to let external noise set noise floor. The issue isn't connecting two 
amplifiers in cascade, the issue is the limit of noise temperature.


The only place negative gain antennas that require more than ~ 20 dB gain 
with a normal receiver at a quiet location will work into the external 
ambient noise floor generated outside the antenna is in a location blanketed 
with strong local noise.  Besides that, if the gain is so far negative the 
coaxial cable will easily become more of an antenna than the thing we call 
an antenna.


40 dB gain in front of a receiver is pure fantasy, unless the receiver is 
dead as a door nail.


73 Tom 


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: Waller Flag

[Dennis W0JX via Topband]

The Waller Flag is a very good TB RX antenna. Most of the time it is installed 
in the vertical plane as it was originally developed and is made rotatable. It 
can be as low as 20 feet off the ground although some are put on taller towers. 
N4IS has also developed a horizontal version, basically the same antenna, to 
respond to horizontally polarized signals. However, the antenna needs to be 
quite high to be effective, at least 70 feet and preferably up at 90 to 100 
feet to work well.

73, Dennis W0JX
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband