Re: Topband: BOG Front to back

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Just to point out that there is NO one-size-fits-all PHYSICAL length for
BOG best f/b.

There is an ELECTRICAL length that far better defines it. And the
electrical length of a fixed length of wire varies wildly all over the
place, depending on the ground underneath, and the spacing to actual dirt
ground. VF measured on 151 foot (46 m) dipoles-on-ground varied from 45% to
85%, some changing wildly just rotating the wire 90 degrees around its
center in the same back yard.

So you make a dipole on the ground, in the place you intend to put the BOG,
and at the same height and using the same installation method you intend
for the BOG. You trim it to make it resonant at 1140 kHz. Then you solder
and insulate the center and add the BOG stuff to the ends.

What you have done with that method is to create a series of 160m BOGs that
all have a certain design ELECTRICAL length.

73, Guy K2AV

On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 9:41 AM Artek Manuals 
wrote:

> Mike
>
>
>
> I have taken the liberty of changing to subject line to more accurately
>
> reflect the content of your reply on the Waller Flag thread
>
>
>
> After much reading and a lot of personal experience and experimentation
>
> I am of the opinion that BOG front-to-back is a function not only the
>
> length but the soil type as well.
>
>
>
> I experimented with 350',  300', 250', and 200'  long bogs all in the
>
> same direction, In my case the shorter 200' long BOG, over very dry ,
>
> well drained, sandy soil clearly had better F/B than the 250' , 300',
>
> 350'   ( F/B on the 350' was the worst of all of them..anyone want some
>
> 50' pieces of RG6?) . When I run out of other things to do I plan on
>
> trying a 175' and 150' but not in the next year.
>
>
>
> A friend of mine living in another part of the country compared his 200'
>
> BOG on laid  top of rich Midwest farm loam to mine and  was very
>
> surprised that my front to back was so much better than his. What the
>
> optimal length is for his particular soil is still TBD. Another friend
>
> with sandy soil but in a very near salt water environment ( he lives
>
> along a  canal with ocean access, i.e salt water)  also reported poor
>
> front to back , for sure we surmise his soil is much more conductive
>
> than mine) .
>
>
>
> The moral I guess is I would start shortening your BOG and see if the
>
> front to back improves
>
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> PS: I too use RG6 for all my BOGS and the feedlines and a dozen or more
>
> turns on a #31 torroid at each end of a 125' feed lines significantly
>
> reduces broadcast band induced signals
>
>
>
>
>
> On 9/12/2020 8:26 AM, Mikek wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> >  My Technical knowledge is limited but, I have built directional AMBCB
>
> > antennas. Feed line isolation is critical to make a directional
>
> > antenna, directional! I have been criticized and been told, coax cable
>
> > does not pick up signal. Must be I don't use the right coax.
>
> >
>
> > This from a previous post I made after I ran out and tested a 230ft
>
> > Coax and a 230ft 18ga twisted speaker wire, to see what BCB stations
>
> > they received.
>
> >
>
> >   "I found I received 13 stations with up to 5.5 S units on the
>
> > properly terminated coax. I tried many things to reduce signal pickup,
>
> > chokes, transformers, grounds, several chokes and transformers, but
>
> > could never get it to be quiet. So after reading some info about
>
> > phased antennas using speaker wire, I ran a twisted speaker wire out
>
> > to where my antenna was to start.
>
> > After terminating that, I found I only received 4 stations, 3 were
>
> > audible but at zero on my S meter and one that was almost 1 S unit.
>
> > Do I think the speaker wire has more loss than the coax probably, but,
>
> > I seem to have plenty of signal and it doesn't have much
>
> > signal ingress compared to the coax."
>
> >
>
> >   I have since went to Cat5 cable for my receive antenna. I started in
>
> > my haste just connecting Cat5 to my radio, terrible idea, but I
>
> > learned from it.
>
> >
>
> >  I tried several things to quiet the Cat5 and came up with something
>
> > that works very well for quieting the Cat5 in_MY_ situation.
>
> >
>
> > I have the 235ft of Cat5 connected to a 260ft (property limited) BOG
>
> > that I use mostly for the AMBCB. The BOG points N/S, it seems to have
>
> >
>
> > attenuated side lobes but not much front to back.
>
> >
>
> >  After reading a Laird Cat5 common mode article, I used their info to
>
> > help me build my signal ingress reduction box. If you're interested in
>
> > seeing what
>
> >
>
> > worked for me, click here.
>
> >
>
> >>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/e1lq7fxv0kggi5d/bog%20final%20design%20may%2030%202020%20common%20mode%20attenuator.jpg?dl=0
>
> >>
>
> > KF4ITA Mike Knowlton
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dave manu...@artekmanuals.com www.ArtekManuals.com
>
>
>
> --
>
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>
> 

Re: Topband: BOG

[Artek Manuals]

You mean it will never be a BAG (Beverage Above Ground)?

Dave
NR1DX

On 12/3/2019 6:49 PM, K4SAV wrote:
You won't have any success trying to rename a BOG.  A BOG (Beverage On 
the Ground) is an accurate and appropriate name.  Harold's first 
"Beverage" was actually a BOG.  A short time later it was raised above 
ground and that is the antenna we now know as a Beverage. You won't 
have any success trying to rename a Beverage either.


Jerry, K4SAV
_
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Reflector


--
Dave
manu...@artekmanuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com

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Re: Topband: BOG

[w5zn]

Polliwog! I love it.

I'm presenting Low Band Receive Antenna Options at the Arkansas DX 
Association conference this weekend and I'm going to throw that one 
in!!!


Thank Mike!

73 Joel W5ZN

On 2019-12-03 15:56, Mike Smith VE9AA wrote:

polliwog

piece of long limp inductive wire on ground



Mike, Coreen & Corey

Keswick Ridge, NB



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Re: Topband: BOG Beverage on Ground Help

[K9FD]

It still wire on the ground



But then it canalso be transmission line on a ground.
In a form of coax line, twisted line.



ср, 4 дек. 2019 г. в 00:27, K9FD >:


WOG wire on the ground

> I agree with Bob. I think the name BOG is firmly entrenched,
whatever the
> electrical differences. Oh, I could propose a new name, but I
doubt it
> would ever stick.
>
> I'll go back to my Otter/Platypus to propose a parable:
>
> Suppose that the Platypus had instead gotten the name of
Duckfaced Otter,
> and that was firmly entrenched in the language regardless of the
science
> placing the Duckfaced in a different Latin-worded species.
>
> Then on a reflector, an argument crops up, someone says that the
Duckfaced
> Otter lays eggs. Others deride that statement, saying everyone
knows that
> an Otter is a mammal, that mammals give live birth and Otters do
not lay
> eggs. Some, quite irritated, ask wouldn't the Duckfaced Otter
have been
> named differently if it was really that different? Probably
because it was
> named centuries before people knew it laid eggs.
>
> In the science, the egg-laying, out of many differences, all by
> itself would put the Duckfaced Otter into a different species,
because such
> differences are what define different species. Overall, most
already know
> that the Duckfaced Otter only *looks* like an otter, really
isn't. But they
> still call it the Duckfaced Otter because that's what the
language calls
> it. Who among us ever gets to successfully take on the language?
>
> ---End of Parable---
>
> Beverage                       Otter
>
> On-ground Beverage     Duckfaced Otter
>
> Both are a longish          Both have brown
> wire parallel to earth,      water repellent fur coat.
> only used for RX.            and love the water.
>
> Isn't it really about time that the masses on the reflectors
know that a
> BOG has irritating issues that no up-in-the-air beverage has to
design
> around, but must be taken into account designing a BOG? That any
Beverage
> strategy has to be analyzed laying on the ground to see if it really
> applies to a BOG?
>
> The antenna category is Ground Low Velocity Factor. The short
for that
> could be GLVF, except we already call those -on-ground or OG.
Dipole on
> Ground is a DOG, Loop on Ground is a LOG, Beverage on ground is
a BOG. In
> this system "Beverage" is only one possible shape of the wire
laying on the
> ground. How a BOG behaves and how to engineer/model one is
really only one
> application of how OG behaves and how to engineer OG.
>
> I think OG is just fine. I don't think OG needs a new name. Just
remember
> that BOG is only one shape instance of OG, and OG controls the
engineering.
>
> 73, Guy K2AV
>
> On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 6:38 PM Chortek, Robert L. <
> robert.chor...@berliner.com
> wrote:
>
>> I don’t think it matters what label we use as long as we correctly
>> understand its electrical properties.
>>
>> AA6VB
>>
>> Bob
>> Robert L. Chortek
>>
>>> On Dec 2, 2019, at 3:13 PM, Mike Smith VE9AA
mailto:ve...@nbnet.nb.ca>> wrote:
>>>
>>> [External Email]
>>>
>>> K2AV says ".BOG is not a Beverage. So don't think about or
treat a BOG
>> like
>>> a Beverage."
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You seem pretty adamant about that Guy.
>>>
>>> What *SHOULD* we be calling it then please?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike VE9AA
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Keswick Ridge, NB
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _
>>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>> Reflector
>> _
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>> Reflector
>>
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband -
Topband Reflector

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--
Andrey Fedorishchev,
RA6LBS


http://lowbandsystems.com/



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Re: Topband: BOG

[FZ Bruce]

This happens due new low band DXers trying to apply Beverage antenna
info. Then asking for assistance.

Harold Beverage first had a low wire over by Otter Creek Maine, but
it was high up on the rocks well above the Beach/salt water..(minimum
earth to wire capacitance for the frequency) 

New DXers need to have a name to point them toward useful
information.

73

Bruce-K1FZ

 "Artek Manuals" 
To: topband@contesting.com
Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday December 3 2019 6:21:20PM
Subject: Re: Topband: BOG

You sit around in the pub for long thinking these UP?
 I just built a LOG myself ( Loop on Ground) ... I also modeled a SLOG
( 
 square loop on ground) but decided that it wasn't very good

 Dave
 NR1DX

 On 12/3/2019 5:56 PM, Mike Smith VE9AA wrote:
 > polliwog
 >
 > piece of long limp inductive wire on ground
 >
 > 
 >
 > Mike, Coreen & Corey
 >
 > Keswick Ridge, NB
 >
 > 
 >
 > _
 > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [1] -
Topband Reflector

 -- 
 Dave
 manu...@artekmanuals.com
 www.ArtekManuals.com

 _
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Reflector



Links:
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[1] http://www.contesting.com/_topband
[2] http://www.contesting.com/_topband

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Re: Topband: BOG

[K4SAV]

You won't have any success trying to rename a BOG.  A BOG (Beverage On 
the Ground) is an accurate and appropriate name.  Harold's first 
"Beverage" was actually a BOG.  A short time later it was raised above 
ground and that is the antenna we now know as a Beverage.  You won't 
have any success trying to rename a Beverage either.


Jerry, K4SAV
_
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Re: Topband: BOG

[Artek Manuals]

You sit around in the pub for long thinking these UP?
I just built a LOG myself ( Loop on Ground) ... I also modeled a SLOG ( 
square loop on ground) but decided that it wasn't very good


Dave
NR1DX

On 12/3/2019 5:56 PM, Mike Smith VE9AA wrote:

polliwog

piece of long limp inductive wire on ground

  


Mike, Coreen & Corey

Keswick Ridge, NB

  


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--
Dave
manu...@artekmanuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com

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Re: Topband: BOG Beverage on Ground Help

[Andrey Fedorishchev]

But then it canalso be transmission line on a ground.
In a form of coax line, twisted line.



ср, 4 дек. 2019 г. в 00:27, K9FD :

> WOG  wire on the ground
>
> > I agree with Bob. I think the name BOG is firmly entrenched, whatever the
> > electrical differences. Oh, I could propose a new name, but I doubt it
> > would ever stick.
> >
> > I'll go back to my Otter/Platypus to propose a parable:
> >
> > Suppose that the Platypus had instead gotten the name of Duckfaced Otter,
> > and that was firmly entrenched in the language regardless of the science
> > placing the Duckfaced in a different Latin-worded species.
> >
> > Then on a reflector, an argument crops up, someone says that the
> Duckfaced
> > Otter lays eggs. Others deride that statement, saying everyone knows that
> > an Otter is a mammal, that mammals give live birth and Otters do not lay
> > eggs. Some, quite irritated, ask wouldn't the Duckfaced Otter have been
> > named differently if it was really that different? Probably because it
> was
> > named centuries before people knew it laid eggs.
> >
> > In the science, the egg-laying, out of many differences, all by
> > itself would put the Duckfaced Otter into a different species, because
> such
> > differences are what define different species. Overall, most already know
> > that the Duckfaced Otter only *looks* like an otter, really isn't. But
> they
> > still call it the Duckfaced Otter because that's what the language calls
> > it. Who among us ever gets to successfully take on the language?
> >
> > ---End of Parable---
> >
> > Beverage   Otter
> >
> > On-ground Beverage Duckfaced Otter
> >
> > Both are a longish  Both have brown
> > wire parallel to earth,  water repellent fur coat.
> > only used for RX.and love the water.
> >
> > Isn't it really about time that the masses on the reflectors know that a
> > BOG has irritating issues that no up-in-the-air beverage has to design
> > around, but must be taken into account designing a BOG? That any Beverage
> > strategy has to be analyzed laying on the ground to see if it really
> > applies to a BOG?
> >
> > The antenna category is Ground Low Velocity Factor. The short for that
> > could be GLVF, except we already call those -on-ground or OG. Dipole on
> > Ground is a DOG, Loop on Ground is a LOG, Beverage on ground is a BOG. In
> > this system "Beverage" is only one possible shape of the wire laying on
> the
> > ground. How a BOG behaves and how to engineer/model one is really only
> one
> > application of how OG behaves and how to engineer OG.
> >
> > I think OG is just fine. I don't think OG needs a new name. Just remember
> > that BOG is only one shape instance of OG, and OG controls the
> engineering.
> >
> > 73, Guy K2AV
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 6:38 PM Chortek, Robert L. <
> > robert.chor...@berliner.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I don’t think it matters what label we use as long as we correctly
> >> understand its electrical properties.
> >>
> >> AA6VB
> >>
> >> Bob
> >> Robert L. Chortek
> >>
> >>> On Dec 2, 2019, at 3:13 PM, Mike Smith VE9AA 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> [External Email]
> >>>
> >>> K2AV says ".BOG is not a Beverage. So don't think about or treat a BOG
> >> like
> >>> a Beverage."
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> You seem pretty adamant about that Guy.
> >>>
> >>> What *SHOULD* we be calling it then please?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Mike VE9AA
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Keswick Ridge, NB
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _
> >>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> >> Reflector
> >> _
> >> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> >> Reflector
> >>
> > _
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>


-- 
Andrey Fedorishchev,
RA6LBS


http://lowbandsystems.com/
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Re: Topband: BOG Beverage on Ground Help

[K9FD]

WOG  wire on the ground


I agree with Bob. I think the name BOG is firmly entrenched, whatever the
electrical differences. Oh, I could propose a new name, but I doubt it
would ever stick.

I'll go back to my Otter/Platypus to propose a parable:

Suppose that the Platypus had instead gotten the name of Duckfaced Otter,
and that was firmly entrenched in the language regardless of the science
placing the Duckfaced in a different Latin-worded species.

Then on a reflector, an argument crops up, someone says that the Duckfaced
Otter lays eggs. Others deride that statement, saying everyone knows that
an Otter is a mammal, that mammals give live birth and Otters do not lay
eggs. Some, quite irritated, ask wouldn't the Duckfaced Otter have been
named differently if it was really that different? Probably because it was
named centuries before people knew it laid eggs.

In the science, the egg-laying, out of many differences, all by
itself would put the Duckfaced Otter into a different species, because such
differences are what define different species. Overall, most already know
that the Duckfaced Otter only *looks* like an otter, really isn't. But they
still call it the Duckfaced Otter because that's what the language calls
it. Who among us ever gets to successfully take on the language?

---End of Parable---

Beverage   Otter

On-ground Beverage Duckfaced Otter

Both are a longish  Both have brown
wire parallel to earth,  water repellent fur coat.
only used for RX.and love the water.

Isn't it really about time that the masses on the reflectors know that a
BOG has irritating issues that no up-in-the-air beverage has to design
around, but must be taken into account designing a BOG? That any Beverage
strategy has to be analyzed laying on the ground to see if it really
applies to a BOG?

The antenna category is Ground Low Velocity Factor. The short for that
could be GLVF, except we already call those -on-ground or OG. Dipole on
Ground is a DOG, Loop on Ground is a LOG, Beverage on ground is a BOG. In
this system "Beverage" is only one possible shape of the wire laying on the
ground. How a BOG behaves and how to engineer/model one is really only one
application of how OG behaves and how to engineer OG.

I think OG is just fine. I don't think OG needs a new name. Just remember
that BOG is only one shape instance of OG, and OG controls the engineering.

73, Guy K2AV

On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 6:38 PM Chortek, Robert L. <
robert.chor...@berliner.com> wrote:


I don’t think it matters what label we use as long as we correctly
understand its electrical properties.

AA6VB

Bob
Robert L. Chortek


On Dec 2, 2019, at 3:13 PM, Mike Smith VE9AA  wrote:

[External Email]

K2AV says ".BOG is not a Beverage. So don't think about or treat a BOG

like

a Beverage."







You seem pretty adamant about that Guy.

What *SHOULD* we be calling it then please?



Mike VE9AA



Keswick Ridge, NB



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Re: Topband: BOG Beverage on Ground Help

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

I agree with Bob. I think the name BOG is firmly entrenched, whatever the
electrical differences. Oh, I could propose a new name, but I doubt it
would ever stick.

I'll go back to my Otter/Platypus to propose a parable:

Suppose that the Platypus had instead gotten the name of Duckfaced Otter,
and that was firmly entrenched in the language regardless of the science
placing the Duckfaced in a different Latin-worded species.

Then on a reflector, an argument crops up, someone says that the Duckfaced
Otter lays eggs. Others deride that statement, saying everyone knows that
an Otter is a mammal, that mammals give live birth and Otters do not lay
eggs. Some, quite irritated, ask wouldn't the Duckfaced Otter have been
named differently if it was really that different? Probably because it was
named centuries before people knew it laid eggs.

In the science, the egg-laying, out of many differences, all by
itself would put the Duckfaced Otter into a different species, because such
differences are what define different species. Overall, most already know
that the Duckfaced Otter only *looks* like an otter, really isn't. But they
still call it the Duckfaced Otter because that's what the language calls
it. Who among us ever gets to successfully take on the language?

---End of Parable---

Beverage   Otter

On-ground Beverage Duckfaced Otter

Both are a longish  Both have brown
wire parallel to earth,  water repellent fur coat.
only used for RX.and love the water.

Isn't it really about time that the masses on the reflectors know that a
BOG has irritating issues that no up-in-the-air beverage has to design
around, but must be taken into account designing a BOG? That any Beverage
strategy has to be analyzed laying on the ground to see if it really
applies to a BOG?

The antenna category is Ground Low Velocity Factor. The short for that
could be GLVF, except we already call those -on-ground or OG. Dipole on
Ground is a DOG, Loop on Ground is a LOG, Beverage on ground is a BOG. In
this system "Beverage" is only one possible shape of the wire laying on the
ground. How a BOG behaves and how to engineer/model one is really only one
application of how OG behaves and how to engineer OG.

I think OG is just fine. I don't think OG needs a new name. Just remember
that BOG is only one shape instance of OG, and OG controls the engineering.

73, Guy K2AV

On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 6:38 PM Chortek, Robert L. <
robert.chor...@berliner.com> wrote:

> I don’t think it matters what label we use as long as we correctly
> understand its electrical properties.
>
> AA6VB
>
> Bob
> Robert L. Chortek
>
> > On Dec 2, 2019, at 3:13 PM, Mike Smith VE9AA  wrote:
> >
> > [External Email]
> >
> > K2AV says ".BOG is not a Beverage. So don't think about or treat a BOG
> like
> > a Beverage."
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > You seem pretty adamant about that Guy.
> >
> > What *SHOULD* we be calling it then please?
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike VE9AA
> >
> >
> >
> > Keswick Ridge, NB
> >
> >
> >
> > _
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
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Re: Topband: BOG Beverage on Ground Help

[Chortek, Robert L.]

I don’t think it matters what label we use as long as we correctly understand 
its electrical properties.

AA6VB 

Bob
Robert L. Chortek

> On Dec 2, 2019, at 3:13 PM, Mike Smith VE9AA  wrote:
> 
> [External Email]
> 
> K2AV says ".BOG is not a Beverage. So don't think about or treat a BOG like
> a Beverage."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You seem pretty adamant about that Guy.
> 
> What *SHOULD* we be calling it then please?
> 
> 
> 
> Mike VE9AA
> 
> 
> 
> Keswick Ridge, NB
> 
> 
> 
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
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Re: Topband: BOG Beverage on Ground Help

[Mike Smith VE9AA]

 

K2AV says ".BOG is not a Beverage. So don't think about or treat a BOG like
a Beverage."



 

 

You seem pretty adamant about that Guy.

What *SHOULD* we be calling it then please?

 

Mike VE9AA

 

Keswick Ridge, NB

 

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Re: Topband: BOG Beverage on Ground Help

[Mikek]

Thanks for the input K2AV. After reading IV3PRK's webpage I was
convinced a BOG is not related to a beverage.
His first line is "yes, this is a resonant antenna, nothing to do with 
beverages!"**http://www.iv3prk.it/bog-modeling.htm

 Is there any advantage to having a BOG 1" or 2" off the ground?
Dry? Filled with water?
 I have thought of running a 1" or 2" pvc pipe the BOG length and tie wrapping 
the wire to the top side.
This would allow weed whipping under and around the pipe and make it easy to 
keep debris from laying on top.

I'm still working on a variable inductor, not that I haven't been able to 
reduce a 100uH inductor to resistance
using the magnetic field from a relay coil. But I need to over drive the relay 
coil. I'm still looking
for a relay coil that produces a large magnetic field. at 12v to 30v. At a 
cheap price! Something may show up.
 If anyone has info on what I should look for in a relay that might tell me "this 
has a high magnetic flux", please pass that along.
 I can also use an AC relay on DC (up to a current limit) if that gets me more 
flux.**

 Here's the original article that got me started on a DC variable inductor.

https://elektrotanya.com/sites/default/files/comment/2018/04/crvco.pdf


I have been contacted privately by a couple of hams to comment with my call 
sign.
Years ago I got a Tech license, and thought it expired, so I haven't used it. I 
went to
renew today and found I did renew and it's good until 2028. I have no recall of 
renewing it.
"Getting old ain't for sissys!" ARRGH!
   Mikek KF4ITA





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Re: Topband: BOG Beverage on Ground Help

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

BOG is not a Beverage. So don't think about or treat a BOG like a Beverage.
The relationship between a Beverage and a BOG is like the relationship
between an Otter and a Platypus. Both are aquatic mammals, but the Platypus
lays eggs and has other very un-Otter characteristics.

Early in the decade, a bunch of hams in the counties around Raleigh/Durham,
North Carolina, ran a bunch of Dipole on Ground (DOG) MEASUREMENTS, to try
and explain the vagaries of BOG behavior. MEASURED (not modeled) velocity
factors of a 151 foot (47m) DOG varied from 45% to 80%. In some cases
simply rotating the DOG around its center 90 degrees in the same spot
created very large changes in VF. This absolutely underscored the need to
install a BOG using a method accounting for the MODELED VF at the ACTUAL
site using the ACTUAL placement of the BOG. We also MEASURED variations in
VF with changes in moisture.

Most issues with BOG's relate to its severe closeness with ground. It
really does not behave at all like an up in the air beverage antenna.

As to modeling, that's the number one misunderstanding and/or omission in
thinking, which I hear over and over again:

The BOG's pattern depends on its ELECTRICAL length, not so much the
termination. SWR does not properly tune a BOG. Emphasis intended. The
incoming signal in the air can be going twice as fast as the signal on the
wire, in phase at one end of the wire and out-of-phase, cancelling at the
RX end of the wire. Beverages do not have such problems unless they are
very, very long and uncharacteristically low.

THE BOG'S PATTERN DEPENDS ON ITS ELECTRICAL LENGTH.

That, as a percentage of its physical length or Velocity Factor, can vary
WILDLY all over the map, explaining the WILD variation in result
satisfaction. And if that were not bad enough, VF can vary WILDLY with
changes in ground moisture content. It can vary with a sneaky slow change
as it grows down into the grass if it wasn't notched down to the dirt to
start with. It can change if leaves pile up on top of it. Again, all of
these are a problem because...

 THE BOG'S PATTERN DEPENDS ON ITS ELECTRICAL LENGTH.

You cannot model a BOG and directly use the modeled physical dimensions if
you are trying to optimize a pattern. Get the pattern you want in the
model, then model a DOG at the same physical height, wire size and physical
length as the BOG model, and use SWR or repeated SRC DAT's to find it's
resonance. That will tell you the ELECTRICAL LENGTH in the model and
therefore the self-resonance frequency needed to create the needed
electrical length in the actual physical BOG.

Then when you go to put down an actual BOG based on that model, do a DOG,
IN PLACE, EXACTLY WHERE, AND IN THE EXACT SAME MANNER YOU INTEND THE BOG TO
BE LEFT, trimming or extending the DOG to match the MODEL'S RESONANCE. Then
rewire the DOG's component wires into the BOG. Solder and insulate the
center, hook up the ends to termination, etc, but don't move or adjust the
length of the DOG wires for any reason. You should redo this exercise after
it's been there for a while to account for sink and cover, etc.

And remember, BOG's are a LOW SIGNAL antenna. Most BOGS really do need an
amplifier somewhere. They are superb at rejecting vertically polarized
local noise off the side.

That suggested for non-desert locations, that you install it with things
good and moist. If it's been dry for a while and it's VF is drifting, you
can always "water the BOG" to return it to installation moisture levels. If
you put it down with no leaves on top of it, you have to keep the leaves
blown off for operation. Don't lay it on the grass, and let it sink (get
closer to the dirt) over time. That will lower the VF and change the
electrical length, and detune it from the model.

You may have guessed that all the above makes it a single band antenna for
the desired prime pattern. Quite unlike the beverage that covers multiple
bands well.

Been there, done that, beaten by that, fussed at that, cussed that, cried
over that. Need to understand a BOG well and play by its rules.

73, Guy K2AV

On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 10:28 AM Grant Saviers  wrote:

> The goal is admirable.  I did some modeling of inductor shortened BOGS
> with EZNEC Pro4 and found it is extremely sensitive to height above
> ground.  A half an inch change in height can reverse the pattern. Thus,
> I consider it an impractical antenna given the nature of most real
> ground surfaces, i.e. exactly where is the modeled "perfectly flat
> ground of uniform properties".  This is in addition to the practical
> realization of the needed inductors.
>
> Grant KZ1W
>
> On 11/21/2019 19:09, K4SAV wrote:
> > Mikek said:
> > "I'd like to apply the loading to a BOG to slow the VF and make it seems
> > longer.
> >   ie. make a 80 meter BOG length work on 160 Meters. But then make the
> > reactance go away for 80 Meters
> >   My actual goal is to have a BOG that covers 500kHz to 4MHz. "
> >
> >
> > Mikek, I 

Re: Topband: BOG Beverage on Ground Help

[Grant Saviers]

The goal is admirable.  I did some modeling of inductor shortened BOGS 
with EZNEC Pro4 and found it is extremely sensitive to height above 
ground.  A half an inch change in height can reverse the pattern. Thus, 
I consider it an impractical antenna given the nature of most real 
ground surfaces, i.e. exactly where is the modeled "perfectly flat 
ground of uniform properties".  This is in addition to the practical 
realization of the needed inductors.


Grant KZ1W

On 11/21/2019 19:09, K4SAV wrote:

Mikek said:
"I'd like to apply the loading to a BOG to slow the VF and make it seems 
longer.
  ie. make a 80 meter BOG length work on 160 Meters. But then make the 
reactance go away for 80 Meters

  My actual goal is to have a BOG that covers 500kHz to 4MHz. "


Mikek, I see you haven't given up on this project.  Experimentation with 
antennas is one of the things I like to do too.  Good luck with this.  I 
won't offer possible alternatives to do this  (there are several)  but 
will consider only your desired approach.


I don't see any switches in your circuit diagram to switch series 
inductors, so I assume you are trying to make them variable and have 
them operate from 500 kHz to 4 MHz.


There are some difficult tasks ahead to make this work over a frequency 
range of 8 to 1..  One is the RF choke.  EZNEC simulations show you need 
about 1mH or more to get enough impedance at 500 kHz. The problem is 
that the self resonance of the choke has to be well above 4 MHz.  A 
distributed capacitance of the choke of 1.6 pf would cause the choke to 
resonant on 4 MHz, so the distributed capacitance must be significantly 
less than that.  It may be possible to build an inductor like that but 
it will have to be an air wound coil using very small wire and well 
separated from its surroundings.  A ferrite or powder irom core won't 
work.  Accepting some degradation of the pattern at 500 kHz would 
decrease the choke requirements.  Other than that, I don't have a 
solution for this, other than something complicated, like switching 
chokes as a function of frequency.


Those values of inductance were derived from simulations and there is 
some possibility the numbers may not agree with experimental results.


Position of the wire carrying the current may affect the pattern if it 
is close.  Too close (like in the same cable) and the capacitance 
between the wires will effectively short out the inductors at RF.


The resistive component of the impedance of the series inductors is 
important.  Inductor material is important. If the resistance is too 
large, it will kill the response of the antenna.


DC blocking caps should present no problems.

I assume you have breadboarded the series variable inductor and 
determined the inductance range needed to cover this frequency range.



Mikek said:
  "I see certain measurements for the length of a BOG, such as 200ft for 
for 160 meters."


You will find various recommendations for BOG lengths from different 
people.  I didn't trust NEC to give a correct answer for this so I spent 
a month comparing a 250 ft BOG to a 366 ft one.  I posted my results here:

http://lists.contesting.com/archives/html/Topband/2018-08/msg00073.html

Jerry, K4SAV

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Re: Topband: BOG with variable inductors

[K4SAV]

Mikek said:
"Regarding my planned inductors They would be controlled by current 
through the antenna wire."


You are going to need a current return path somewhere.  Are you planning 
to use the ground for that?  That presents some new problems.  As I said 
the last time, another wire close to the wire acting as the antenna will 
effectively short out the inductors due to wire-to-wire capacitance, so 
the wire carrying the DC can't be in the same cable as the antenna wire.


Mikek said:
 "I was told if I use a current source, that the impedance looking in 
would be high,"


That's a good thought but the solution isn't obvious and the devil is in 
the details.  Most three terminal regulators can be configured as 
current sources but I doubt that their output impedance will remain high 
over a 4 MHz range.  Normally current sources don't have to work over a 
frequency range like that but you are trying to use it as a large 
inductor.  Besides you apparently need a voltage compliant range of 
about 100 volts, so you would need extra circuitry anyway.   Since you 
won't need the accuracy of these three terminal devices, maybe you can 
design something from scratch using transistors.  Simulating the circuit 
in LTSPICE will save a bunch of time and frustration.  Watch out for 
conditions that cause the circuit to jump into high frequency 
oscillation.  Also since the circuit will be connected directly to the 
antenna wire, output noise of the current source becomes very 
important.  The impedance of the DC return wire (wherever that is) will 
be a part of the impedance the current source has to work into.  That 
fact alone will probably kill the whole concept.  It doesn't look like 
an easy design task to me so I didn't spend any time looking at a 
possible design.


A combination consisting of multiple series inductors may be a better 
solution.  The smaller inductors could provide the needed impedance when 
the larger one becomes low impedance.  That also requires a little 
work.  The larger inductor at a frequency above its parallel resonant 
point looks like a capacitor and adding another inductor in series 
produces a series resonant point at a different frequency.  Some design 
and testing is required to get the needed impedance over the range.


Mikek said:
"You ask if I breadboarded the series variable inductor and determined 
the inductance range needed to cover this frequency range.I don't know 
how I would breadboard that. I did my best with EZNEC and figured I'd 
start with a little extra inductance and then I could reduce it as needed. "


You have already done some "breadboarding" if you measured the 100 to 17 
uH values. That inductance value may vary with frequency when using 
ferrite material, so keep that in mind.  You also need to measure the 
resistive part of the impedance of that variable inductor.  A good 
antenna analyzer should take care of that.


Using NEC to estimate the total inductance needed for each band is about 
as good as you can do.  You will have fun experimentally determining how 
well it works if you ever get it built.  You will need another antenna 
for comparison.


Jerry, K4SAV

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Re: Topband: BOG Beverage on Ground Help

[Chuck Hutton]

In one of Beverage's old articles, there is a page or two devoted to adding 
coils to lower the velocity of the antenna.
If I recall correctly, it has both theory and measurements.

Chuck


From: Topband  on behalf of Mikek 

Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 12:13 PM
To: topband@contesting.com 
Subject: Topband: BOG Beverage on Ground Help

  Hi guys,
Just saw this page and it presented info that a BOG is a resonant
antenna. It gives me a little boost
about adding inductance to the antenna to artificially lengthen it.
> http://www.iv3prk.it/bog-modeling.htm
  Is there any agreement about this or anyone want to shoot it down?

Mikek



Hi guys,
  I see certain measurements for the length of a BOG, such as 200ft for
for 160 meters.
  And even a warning on one page,
/*
"The biggest mistake is making the BOG antenna too long. Try not to go */
/*over 200 feet for 160 meters."

*/So, if I tried to use this 200ft BOG on 80 Meters, I assume it has
receive problems.
A short explanation of those problems would be helpful, Impedance? Pattern?
   I've been pondering over W8JI's Loaded beverage page.
> https://www.w8ji.com/slinky_and_loaded_beverages.htm
I'd like to apply the loading to a BOG to slow the VF and make it seems
longer.
  ie. make a 80 meter BOG length work on 160 Meters. But then make the
reactance go away for 80 Meters
  My actual goal is to have a BOG that covers 500kHz to 4MHz.
To that end, I have been working on a variable inductor that I can
insert into the length of the BOG.
In reality, it would be eight Variable inductors spaced about 35 to 40ft
apart. I'm land limited to about 270ft.
  I want to control the inductors with a DC current through the BOG wire.
  I have a 100uh toroid inductor that I can partially saturate with an
electromagnet.
  The electromagnet is energized by an adjustable current through the
BOG wire. This means I need
to RF bypass the Electromagnet, so it's inductance is not seen by the
RF. Also I must block the RF
from seeing the Power supply/current source.
  I have a drawing showing my proposed circuit here.
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/wrfpubqvsfd11nq/bog%20with%20variable%20inductors..jpg?dl=0
  I want to be told what problems you see and ways to overcome them. _If
it is at all feasible_,
I would wonder about the values of the blocking caps and Chokes.
  I appreciate any thought you can give this idea.
  Mikek
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Re: Topband: BOG Beverage on Ground Help

[K4SAV]

Mikek said:
"I'd like to apply the loading to a BOG to slow the VF and make it seems 
longer.
 ie. make a 80 meter BOG length work on 160 Meters. But then make the 
reactance go away for 80 Meters

 My actual goal is to have a BOG that covers 500kHz to 4MHz. "


Mikek, I see you haven't given up on this project.  Experimentation with 
antennas is one of the things I like to do too.  Good luck with this.  I 
won't offer possible alternatives to do this  (there are several)  but 
will consider only your desired approach.


I don't see any switches in your circuit diagram to switch series 
inductors, so I assume you are trying to make them variable and have 
them operate from 500 kHz to 4 MHz.


There are some difficult tasks ahead to make this work over a frequency 
range of 8 to 1..  One is the RF choke.  EZNEC simulations show you need 
about 1mH or more to get enough impedance at 500 kHz. The problem is 
that the self resonance of the choke has to be well above 4 MHz.  A 
distributed capacitance of the choke of 1.6 pf would cause the choke to 
resonant on 4 MHz, so the distributed capacitance must be significantly 
less than that.  It may be possible to build an inductor like that but 
it will have to be an air wound coil using very small wire and well 
separated from its surroundings.  A ferrite or powder irom core won't 
work.  Accepting some degradation of the pattern at 500 kHz would 
decrease the choke requirements.  Other than that, I don't have a 
solution for this, other than something complicated, like switching 
chokes as a function of frequency.


Those values of inductance were derived from simulations and there is 
some possibility the numbers may not agree with experimental results.


Position of the wire carrying the current may affect the pattern if it 
is close.  Too close (like in the same cable) and the capacitance 
between the wires will effectively short out the inductors at RF.


The resistive component of the impedance of the series inductors is 
important.  Inductor material is important. If the resistance is too 
large, it will kill the response of the antenna.


DC blocking caps should present no problems.

I assume you have breadboarded the series variable inductor and 
determined the inductance range needed to cover this frequency range.



Mikek said:
 "I see certain measurements for the length of a BOG, such as 200ft for 
for 160 meters."


You will find various recommendations for BOG lengths from different 
people.  I didn't trust NEC to give a correct answer for this so I spent 
a month comparing a 250 ft BOG to a 366 ft one.  I posted my results here:

http://lists.contesting.com/archives/html/Topband/2018-08/msg00073.html

Jerry, K4SAV

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Re: Topband: BOG questions

[FZ Bruce]

The BOG has been researched years ago. Check out search IV3PRK BOG

73Bruce-k1fz

-From: "Artek Manuals" 
To: topband@contesting.com
Cc: 
Sent: Sunday August 25 2019 9:16:53PM
Subject: Re: Topband: BOG questions

Lloyd et all

 Isn't a BOG say 3" or 6" high draped over the weeds really now a very

 low beverage and not a BOG at all?

 It now needs to be longer and terminated to ground on the far end
like 
 you would a beverage in order to be effective?

 Wish the NEC4 engine wasn't so expensive I am getting the itch to
spend 
 all night modeling these permutations and combinations

 There are two advantages to a BOG as I see it . It is technically
very 
 easy to install if you can expose bare dirt to lay it on and it is 
 shorter than by almost half� for useful F/B.

 Dave
 NR1DX
 manu...@artekmanuals.com

 On 8/25/2019 4:15 PM, Lloyd - N9LB wrote:
 > Hello Mark!
 >
 > I did a similar thing a couple of years ago in order to run a BOG 
 > across the
 > abandoned farm behind my property. Never doing that again!
 >
 > The following season I set the mower deck to maximum height on my
lawn and
 > garden tractor and drove thru the same field of six foot high weeds
and
 > thorns ( and assorted ticks ). That worked a lot better ( and much
safer
 > too ).
 >
 > What I learned was that the BOG works well when laying directly on
the
 > ground, but was worthless when draped over weeds.
 >
 > GL es 73
 >
 > Lloyd - N9LB
 >
 >
 > -Original Message-
 > From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of
Mark
 > Lunday
 > Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 2:48 PM
 > To: Mikek ; topband@contesting.com
 > Subject: Re: Topband: BOG questions
 >
 > OK, my wife now is convinced that I have a screw loose in the brain
 > somewhere (she had plenty of evidence before but decided to give me
the
 > benefit of the doubt until today)I just spent an hour in the
hot North
 > Carolina sun, wearing jeans and a heavy winter jacket so that I
could wade
 > through 300 feet of neck-high thorns and nettles and tamp those
down so I
 > could re-lay the insulated BOG wire.
 >
 > I do this for three reasons:
 >
 > 1. I want to confirm the theory that growing grass/weeds around the

 > original
 > installation 11 moths ago have compromised performance
 >
 > 2. A nearby lightning strike Friday night wiped out something in my
HiZ
 > 4-square receiving array, and I refuse to use the 160 meter
inverted L for
 > receive, even though this is a quiet QTH.
 >
 > 3. Even at my age of 55, I find sudden surges of energy when
involved with
 > such projects.
 >
 > I shall share my observations as the nights progress, while I
 > investigate/diagnose/repair/replace the damaged parts on the HiZ
array.
 >
 > Mark Lunday, WD4ELG
 > Greensboro, NC FM06be
 > wd4...@arrl.net
 > http://wd4elg.blogspot.com [1]
 > SKCC #16439 FISTS #17972 QRP ARCI #16497 _
Searchable
 > Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [2] - Topband
Reflector
 >
 > _
 > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [3] -
Topband 
 > Reflector
 >

 -- 
 Dave
 manu...@artekmanuals.com
 www.ArtekManuals.com

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Re: Topband: BOG questions

[Artek Manuals]

Lloyd et all

Isn't a BOG say 3" or 6" high draped over the weeds really now a very 
low beverage and not a BOG at all?


It now needs to be longer and terminated to ground on the far end like 
you would a beverage in order to be effective?


Wish the NEC4 engine wasn't so expensive I am getting the itch to spend 
all night modeling these permutations and combinations


There are two advantages to a BOG as I see it . It is technically very 
easy to install if you can expose bare dirt to lay it on and it is 
shorter than by almost half� for useful F/B.


Dave
NR1DX
manu...@artekmanuals.com



On 8/25/2019 4:15 PM, Lloyd - N9LB wrote:

Hello Mark!

I did a similar thing a couple of years ago in order to run a BOG 
across the

abandoned farm behind my property. Never doing that again!

The following season I set the mower deck to maximum height on my lawn and
garden tractor and drove thru the same field of six foot high weeds and
thorns ( and assorted ticks ). That worked a lot better ( and much safer
too ).

What I learned was that the BOG works well when laying directly on the
ground, but was worthless when draped over weeds.

GL es 73

Lloyd - N9LB


-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Lunday
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 2:48 PM
To: Mikek ; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: BOG questions

OK, my wife now is convinced that I have a screw loose in the brain
somewhere (she had plenty of evidence before but decided to give me the
benefit of the doubt until today)I just spent an hour in the hot North
Carolina sun, wearing jeans and a heavy winter jacket so that I could wade
through 300 feet of neck-high thorns and nettles and tamp those down so I
could re-lay the insulated BOG wire.

I do this for three reasons:

1. I want to confirm the theory that growing grass/weeds around the 
original

installation 11 moths ago have compromised performance

2. A nearby lightning strike Friday night wiped out something in my HiZ
4-square receiving array, and I refuse to use the 160 meter inverted L for
receive, even though this is a quiet QTH.

3. Even at my age of 55, I find sudden surges of energy when involved with
such projects.

I shall share my observations as the nights progress, while I
investigate/diagnose/repair/replace the damaged parts on the HiZ array.

Mark Lunday, WD4ELG
Greensboro, NC FM06be
wd4...@arrl.net
http://wd4elg.blogspot.com
SKCC #16439 FISTS #17972 QRP ARCI #16497 _ Searchable
Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

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Reflector




--
Dave
manu...@artekmanuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com


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Re: Topband: BOG questions

[Lloyd - N9LB]

Hello Mark!

I did a similar thing a couple of years ago in order to run a BOG across the
abandoned farm behind my property.  Never doing that again!

The following season I set the mower deck to maximum height on my lawn and
garden tractor and drove thru the same field of six foot high weeds and
thorns ( and assorted ticks ).  That worked a lot better ( and much safer
too ).

What I learned was that the BOG works well when laying directly on the
ground, but was worthless when draped over weeds.

GL es 73

Lloyd - N9LB


-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Lunday
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 2:48 PM
To: Mikek ; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: BOG questions

OK, my wife now is convinced that I have a screw loose in the brain
somewhere (she had plenty of evidence before but decided to give me the
benefit of the doubt until today)I just spent an hour in the hot North
Carolina sun, wearing jeans and a heavy winter jacket so that I could wade
through 300 feet of neck-high thorns and nettles and tamp those down so I
could re-lay the insulated BOG wire.

I do this for three reasons:

1. I want to confirm the theory that growing grass/weeds around the original
installation 11 moths ago have compromised performance

2. A nearby lightning strike Friday night wiped out something in my HiZ
4-square receiving array, and I refuse to use the 160 meter inverted L for
receive, even though this is a quiet QTH.

3. Even at my age of 55, I find sudden surges of energy when involved with
such projects.

I shall share my observations as the nights progress, while I
investigate/diagnose/repair/replace the damaged parts on the HiZ array.

Mark Lunday, WD4ELG
Greensboro, NC  FM06be
wd4...@arrl.net
http://wd4elg.blogspot.com
SKCC #16439  FISTS #17972  QRP ARCI #16497 _ Searchable
Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

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Re: Topband: BOG questions

[Mark Lunday]

OK, my wife now is convinced that I have a screw loose in the brain somewhere 
(she had plenty of evidence before but decided to give me the benefit of the 
doubt until today)I just spent an hour in the hot North Carolina sun, 
wearing jeans and a heavy winter jacket so that I could wade through 300 feet 
of neck-high thorns and nettles and tamp those down so I could re-lay the 
insulated BOG wire.

I do this for three reasons:

1. I want to confirm the theory that growing grass/weeds around the original 
installation 11 moths ago have compromised performance

2. A nearby lightning strike Friday night wiped out something in my HiZ 
4-square receiving array, and I refuse to use the 160 meter inverted L for 
receive, even though this is a quiet QTH.

3. Even at my age of 55, I find sudden surges of energy when involved with such 
projects.

I shall share my observations as the nights progress, while I 
investigate/diagnose/repair/replace the damaged parts on the HiZ array.

Mark Lunday, WD4ELG
Greensboro, NC  FM06be
wd4...@arrl.net
http://wd4elg.blogspot.com
SKCC #16439  FISTS #17972  QRP ARCI #16497
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: BOG questions

[Mark Lunday]

This is interesting.  Thanks for sharing, Mikek.

I put down 200 feet of insulated wire BOG pointed at EU, just set it down on 
the ground...sometimes over a fallen small tree but almost always within 12 
inches of ground.

I fed it with 75 ohm TV cable.  I did not terminate it, and I used a KD9SV 
transformer and added a pre-amp right next to it.

It picked up EU signals sooner than my HiZ or dipole at 60 feet that was 
broadside to EU.

It worked on 80, though not as well.  On 160 it was highly susceptible to AM 
BCB.

I started listening in October.  Something changed in March.  Suddenly it went 
deaf.  Not sure if it was because of all the rain in the winter, or the 
sprouting of the grasses.

I have not been out into the field, because it is covered with thorny bushes.  
I already ripped up and scarred my shin badly when I moved 2 of the HiZ 
vertical elements in April.   It was not painful, but it looked like my shin 
was in a knife fight or that I was attached by a big dog.

Anyway, I am wondering why the bog went so deaf suddenly.  I will try it again 
when we get into November.


Mark Lunday, WD4ELG
Greensboro, NC  FM06be
wd4...@arrl.net
http://wd4elg.blogspot.com
SKCC #16439  FISTS #17972  QRP ARCI #16497
Topband Reflector
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: BOG questions

[Raymond Benny]

Check the recent posts by VE6WZ, I believe it is.
He has several videos and links that will help you.

Ray,
N6VR


On Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 5:55 AM Artek Manuals 
wrote:

> I am in the process of experimenting with an RBOG .. I have seen in
> several places that  BOGS are "self-terminating" and as such have an
> optimum length (on 160M) of something on the order of 200-250 feet.
> Longer BOGs supposedly have degraded directional properties for lengths
> shorter and longer than this.
>
> How important is matching the feed point impedance? I am led to believe
> that this can vary widely  with BOG "installation". Main installation
> Factors being; soil conductivity and ground placement ( in ground, on
> ground. on grass, etc). re there other factors to consider?
>
> How would I go about "measuring" (not modeling !!)  the self terminating
> length for my given conditions. N/S I am limited to 200'  but E/W i can
> go up to 350'.
>
> Finally though technically not a topband question. How "directional is a
> typical 200' BOG on 80 & 40? Or is an 80M BOG ideally 100' long and at
> 200' the directional capability is degraded?
>
> Dave
> NR1DX
> manu...@artekmanuals.com
>
> --
> Dave
> manu...@artekmanuals.com
> www.ArtekManuals.com
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: BOG height

[Andrey Fedorishchev]

Guy, et al

At Lowbandsystems we have many feedbacks and questions from our customers
around the Europe and Russia.

U, L bends following property lines, intentional bends to have “two
direction” beverages, part of the beverage wire buried  under the public
road and other funny stories.

But most  astonishing case was a guy who put his 800’ beverage wire into
his radio room at the basement, and used some existing steel pipes as
grounding at the feed point right next to his receiver TO REDUCE losses in
the feedline !

73, Andrei RA6LBS




вс, 4 авг. 2019 г. в 22:18, Guy Olinger K2AV :

> Hi Mike, et al.
>
> I have personal acquaintance and knowledge of a number of hams who have put
> down a BOG that was anything but straight. Some with 90 degree bends,
> another shaped like a Z, and less extreme bends. The end of those small
> lot, weird property situational BOG attempts, is that a few didn't do much,
> maybe nothing. But some significantly improved signal ratio of incoming
> desired 160m signal to local noise. This appears to invoke a degree of
> something clearly seen on straight BOGS where local noise from broadside
> the BOG is reduced significantly. Theoretically some could object that
> 20-25 dB side rejection is reduced by a bend, and it surely IS reduced.
> HOWEVER...
>
> ... And a big however, even if only 4-6 dB of the reduction remains, a
> general reduction of 4 dB noise on a given 160 signal will make a big
> difference in results, in who he hears and hears not. Theoretical thought
> and practical thought sometimes give one different answers to "To Do or not
> to Do, that is the question". Theoretical should serve the practical, not
> the other way around.
>
> Sometimes our beloved reflector mob is inclined to entirely dismiss
> anecdotal material from the field, dismiss anything that was not derived
> from a controlled lab-style experiment. The lab-style experiment is good to
> establish behaviors as fact, principles to use. BUT the anecdotal tells us
> how it plays in the real world, where the lab experiment derived
> implementation rules are often simply not possible.
>
> In the end, one needs to understand the factors that bear upon performance,
> AND understand them WELL, but then just go try stuff out, even if some
> aspects of the lab version have to be bent or ignored. Try things.
> Personally I will take 4-6 dB improvement on hearing Europe, and it will
> show up in my contest scores.
>
> 73, Guy K2AV
>
> On Sun, Aug 4, 2019 at 1:59 PM Mike Waters  wrote:
>
> > Based on questions I've received over the years from hams who found my
> > Beverage antenna page, there is an an additional problem.
> >
> > Some hams just do not grasp that:
> > (1) Beverages are directional, like a Yagi is.
> > (2) A Beverage has to be reasonably straight. Dozens of folks want to put
> > it over an existing fence, where it winds up being an L or U shape.
> >
> > 73, Mike
> > www.w0btu.com
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 4, 2019, 12:34 PM FZ Bruce  wrote:
> >
> > > ...
> > > The problem with the BOG is not the antenna, but new users who try to
> > > use above ground Beverage information to make it work..
> > >
> > _
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> > Reflector
> >
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
-- 
Andrey Fedorishchev,
RA6LBS


http://lowbandsystems.com/
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: BOG height

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Hi Mike, et al.

I have personal acquaintance and knowledge of a number of hams who have put
down a BOG that was anything but straight. Some with 90 degree bends,
another shaped like a Z, and less extreme bends. The end of those small
lot, weird property situational BOG attempts, is that a few didn't do much,
maybe nothing. But some significantly improved signal ratio of incoming
desired 160m signal to local noise. This appears to invoke a degree of
something clearly seen on straight BOGS where local noise from broadside
the BOG is reduced significantly. Theoretically some could object that
20-25 dB side rejection is reduced by a bend, and it surely IS reduced.
HOWEVER...

... And a big however, even if only 4-6 dB of the reduction remains, a
general reduction of 4 dB noise on a given 160 signal will make a big
difference in results, in who he hears and hears not. Theoretical thought
and practical thought sometimes give one different answers to "To Do or not
to Do, that is the question". Theoretical should serve the practical, not
the other way around.

Sometimes our beloved reflector mob is inclined to entirely dismiss
anecdotal material from the field, dismiss anything that was not derived
from a controlled lab-style experiment. The lab-style experiment is good to
establish behaviors as fact, principles to use. BUT the anecdotal tells us
how it plays in the real world, where the lab experiment derived
implementation rules are often simply not possible.

In the end, one needs to understand the factors that bear upon performance,
AND understand them WELL, but then just go try stuff out, even if some
aspects of the lab version have to be bent or ignored. Try things.
Personally I will take 4-6 dB improvement on hearing Europe, and it will
show up in my contest scores.

73, Guy K2AV

On Sun, Aug 4, 2019 at 1:59 PM Mike Waters  wrote:

> Based on questions I've received over the years from hams who found my
> Beverage antenna page, there is an an additional problem.
>
> Some hams just do not grasp that:
> (1) Beverages are directional, like a Yagi is.
> (2) A Beverage has to be reasonably straight. Dozens of folks want to put
> it over an existing fence, where it winds up being an L or U shape.
>
> 73, Mike
> www.w0btu.com
>
> On Sun, Aug 4, 2019, 12:34 PM FZ Bruce  wrote:
>
> > ...
> > The problem with the BOG is not the antenna, but new users who try to
> > use above ground Beverage information to make it work..
> >
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: BOG height

[Mike Waters]

Based on questions I've received over the years from hams who found my
Beverage antenna page, there is an an additional problem.

Some hams just do not grasp that:
(1) Beverages are directional, like a Yagi is.
(2) A Beverage has to be reasonably straight. Dozens of folks want to put
it over an existing fence, where it winds up being an L or U shape.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Sun, Aug 4, 2019, 12:34 PM FZ Bruce  wrote:

> ...
> The problem with the BOG is not the antenna, but new users who try to
> use above ground Beverage information to make it work..
>
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: BOG height

[FZ Bruce]

North Haven Island is close to my QTH across water. Sam Beverage W1MGP
(sk) a relative of Harold and locals had a Friday evening 10 meter SSB
schedule. We discussed Harold's antennas often. Years went by and it
was rare for someone to miss the schedule.
The problem with the BOG is not the antenna, but new users who try to
use above ground Beverage information to make it work..
The "on ground" part of the antenna often does not work right because
sand and other non-conductive soil are insulators. Over insulating
soil it does act like a real Beverage antenna.
Its a good antenna. Every few years there are a few new DXers trying
to figure it out.
73
Bruce -k1fz

-From: "K4SAV" 
To: topband@contesting.com
Cc: 
Sent: Sunday August 4 2019 9:35:06AM
Subject: Re: Topband: BOG height

K1FZ said:
 "The Amateur Radio BOG is mis-named, should have been something like 
 WOG (wire on ground)"

 I think BOG is a perfect name. It honors the inventor Harold
Beverage.

 We have lots of things in ham radio that are misnamed but BOG isn't
one 
 of them.

 An interesting read is this interview with Harold Beverage. It's long

 but interesting.
 http://www.contesting.com/_topband [1] - Topband Reflector
 

Links:
--
[1] https://ethw.org/Oral-History:Harold_H._Beverage
https://ethw.org/Oral-History:Harold_H._Beverage
 /> 
 Jerry, K4SAV
 _
 Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: BOG height

[K4SAV]

K1FZ said:
"The Amateur Radio  BOG is mis-named, should have been something like 
WOG  (wire on ground)"



I think BOG is a perfect name.  It honors the inventor Harold Beverage.

We have lots of things in ham radio that are misnamed but BOG isn't one 
of them.


An interesting read is this interview with Harold Beverage.  It's long 
but interesting.

https://ethw.org/Oral-History:Harold_H._Beverage

Jerry, K4SAV
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: BOG height

[FZ Bruce]

 The Wave (BOG) antennas in Maine were very low frequency. The height
above ground in wavelength was low.
 Radio Corporation of America 1XAO here in Belfast was using 15 to 22
KHZ prior to 1924. The antenna length was 52,610 feet in length (just
under 10 Miles)
To develop a good front to back , and pattern a BOG needs to be close
to the ground in terms of wavelength.

As Guy K2AV said it does not behave like an above ground Beverage
antenna.

The Amateur Radio BOG is mis-named, should have been something like
WOG (wire on ground)

73
Bruce- K1FZ

-From: "K4SAV" 
To: topband@contesting.com
Cc: 
Sent: Saturday August 3 2019 9:44:11PM
Subject: Re: Topband: BOG height

 K2AV seem to be a storehouse of information. Thanks again Guy.

 One point, K2AV said:
 "If you model a real BOG, you find that beyond an ELECTRICAL half
wave ON
 THE WIRE, or two hundred something feet on 160, extending the BOG
wire will
 start to REVERSE the pattern."

 That never happened with my 366 ft BOG when it was lying on dead
grass 
 at an average of about 1.5 inches above the dirt. My tests comparing
a 
 250 ft BOG to a 366 ft one showed no significant front to back 
 difference. There were some pattern differences in other directions.

 I have never put a BOG directly on dirt so I can't say what happens 
 there. Measured data with the BOG 1.5 inches above the dirt does show

 that BOG gain drops about 6 dB right after a heavy rain or about the 
 same when covered by an inch of snow. Normally the gain of both the
250 
 and 366 ft BOGs were at about -17 dBi measured by comparison to
another 
 antenna that I know the gain of.

 I do know where the 250 ft recommended length for a 160 BOG came
from. 
 It came from NEC. I can make those same conclusions too if I only
look 
 at NEC data. I originally decided on 365 ft because NEC said it was 
 better than 250 ft. Subsequently I have lost confidence in NEC being 
 able to calculate BOG performance at any length. That was the impetus

 for my tests comparing 250 to 366 ft.

 K2AV also said:
 "A "beverage" ON the ground really is NOT a beverage."

 I agree that there is a lot of difference between a BOG and a
Beverage 
 above ground. At least that's the way we refer to them now but did
you 
 know that the antenna invented by Harold Beverage was a wire lying on

 the ground? Here is an excerpt from an interview with him:

 Beverage's words:
 "I invented the receiving antenna, the groundwave, the long waves
laid 
 on the ground. They were unidirectional, and nobody knew why. Others
— 
 the Navy — had used the ground waves, too. So I took a big heavy 
 receiver down the line and broke into some wires to see how the
signals 
 built up as it went towards the north and the static went down. Then 
 going the other way, the signal went down and the static came up.
Well, 
 I discovered that the reason that that antenna wire laying on the
ground 
 was unidirectional was the high losses. So that the static had built
up 
 to the northeast end and never got back down to the southwest end
into 
 the receiver. It was unidirectional just simply because of the losses
of 
 the wire laying on the ground. The idea then was we put stuff on
wires 
 at the northeast end. There was a resistor equal to the impedance of
the 
 antenna to make it unidirectional. You had but one wire I think."

 Jerry, K4SAV

 _
 Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband [1] - Topband
Reflector
 

Links:
--
[1] http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: BOG height

[K4SAV]

K2AV seem to be a storehouse of information.  Thanks again Guy.

One point, K2AV said:
"If you model a real BOG, you find that beyond an ELECTRICAL half wave ON
THE WIRE, or two hundred something feet on 160, extending the BOG wire will
start to REVERSE the pattern."

That never happened with my 366 ft BOG when it was lying on dead grass 
at an average of about 1.5 inches above the dirt.  My tests comparing a 
250 ft BOG to a 366 ft one showed no significant front to back 
difference. There were some pattern differences in other directions.


I have never put a BOG directly on dirt so I can't say what happens 
there. Measured data with the BOG 1.5 inches above the dirt does show 
that BOG gain drops about 6 dB right after a heavy rain or about the 
same when covered by an inch of snow.  Normally the gain of both the 250 
and 366 ft BOGs were at about -17 dBi measured by comparison to another 
antenna that I know the gain of.


I do know where the 250 ft recommended length for a 160 BOG came from.  
It came from NEC.  I can make those same conclusions too if I only look 
at NEC data.  I originally decided on 365 ft because NEC said it was 
better than 250 ft.  Subsequently I have lost confidence in NEC being 
able to calculate BOG performance at any length.  That was the impetus 
for my tests comparing 250 to 366 ft.


K2AV also said:
"A "beverage" ON the ground really is NOT a beverage."

I agree that there is a lot of difference between a BOG and a Beverage 
above ground.  At least that's the way we refer to them now but did you 
know that the antenna invented by Harold Beverage was a wire lying on 
the ground?  Here is an excerpt from an interview with him:


Beverage's words:
"I invented the receiving antenna, the groundwave, the long waves laid 
on the ground. They were unidirectional, and nobody knew why. Others — 
the Navy — had used the ground waves, too. So I took a big heavy 
receiver down the line and broke into some wires to see how the signals 
built up as it went towards the north and the static went down. Then 
going the other way, the signal went down and the static came up. Well, 
I discovered that the reason that that antenna wire laying on the ground 
was unidirectional was the high losses. So that the static had built up 
to the northeast end and never got back down to the southwest end into 
the receiver. It was unidirectional just simply because of the losses of 
the wire laying on the ground. The idea then was we put stuff on wires 
at the northeast end. There was a resistor equal to the impedance of the 
antenna to make it unidirectional. You had but one wire I think."


Jerry, K4SAV

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: BOG height

[Paul Mclaren]

Guy,

Thanks and two initial questions:

1) what are the consequences good or bad if the wire is 2 inches above the
ground?

2) any recommendations on a BOG amplifier?

Thanks

Paul

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 at 23:29, Cecil  wrote:

> Guy...a great post!
>
> Great information for those of us who are looking for RX antenna options
> but don’t have the room for the normal RX antennas...
>
> And also a real breath of fresh air in light of our recent discussions..
>
> Thank You!
>
> Cecil
> K5DL
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Aug 3, 2019, at 5:17 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV  wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Ed,
> >
> > You're on the right track.
> >
> > A "beverage" ON the ground really is NOT a beverage.  For two things to
> be
> > called the same genus, they need to have most everything in common. This
> is
> > true of big yagis, little yagis, short yagis, long yagis, trapped yagis,
> > linear loaded yagis, end loaded yagis, moxons, yagis at 30 feet and yagis
> > at 200 feet, etc. One program optimizes them all. A yagi is a yagi, is a
> > yagi, is a yagi, and all of them have a ton of yagi-ness held in common.
> > Simply not so BOG vs. beverage.
> >
> > Creating beverage advice from one particulars person's wire down close to
> > or on the ground at their particular property, may be simply and totally
> > wrong for someone else. The normal beverage tuning instructions, usually
> OK
> > for wires a foot off the ground and maybe even OK to some degree for four
> > inches, simply do not apply if the wire is actually laying on the ground.
> >
> > A regular beverage has a decent RX signal strength. To be truthful, a
> > **real** BOG needs a remote amplifier, because its output is way down
> from
> > a real beverage. Get this much straight: an actual BOG is a LOW output
> > antenna, period. The way to improve a BOG's signal output is add an amp
> > (best remote), or escape BOG-iness and lift it off the ground.
> >
> > If you model a real BOG, you find that beyond an ELECTRICAL half wave ON
> > THE WIRE, or two hundred something feet on 160, extending the BOG wire
> will
> > start to REVERSE the pattern. No real beverage ever does that. Just some
> > beverage lengths are bit better than others FOR REAL BEVERAGES. A BOG is
> a
> > single band antenna for optimums. It will hear stuff on other bands, but
> > forget a designed pattern like you have on a beverage for several bands,
> > that work WELL on several bands.
> >
> > If you are even two inches above actual ground, laying on top of grass,
> you
> > are blending the very different worlds of pure BOG and pure beverage. If
> > you are at two inches, you are at a poor place to advise either owners of
> > pure BOG's or pure beverages. The great problem is that exactly which
> type
> > you are closer to depends on the vagaries of the location-specific ground
> > underneath.
> >
> > These vagaries wander HUGELY ( I'm talking about an actually carefully
> > measured  wandering HUGELY) depending on individual properties.
> > Based on those **measurements** it is a normal outcome that one end of
> the
> > wire could be more BOG and the other end of the same wire could be more
> > beverage, and even vary more depending on whether it rained in the last
> few
> > days (or weeks depending on the local and natural drainage of the soil).
> >
> > It is clear reading a lot of the posts on BOG's from the last week or
> two,
> > that a lot of users were expecting greater signal output. Don't. A REAL
> > *BOG* that was laid down, notched in the grass down to the actual ground
> > surface, to get it out of sight and safe from lawn mowers, WILL sound
> MUCH
> > better to the ear if it has an amp. Otherwise, a BOG is a LOW LEVEL RX
> > antenna.
> >
> > IN GENERAL, a real BOG needs an amplifier, will usually wind up somewhere
> > 180 to 230 feet if you want front to back, and it's great advantage is
> that
> > it can't be mowed, snagged by galloping deer, have tree branches knock it
> > down, be seen by unfriendly neighbors and it will do roughly as well as a
> > single direction K9AY, but without the AY's ugly wires above the ground,
> IF
> > it's amplified. If the feed circuitry is done correctly, a BOG will be
> > wonderful at reducing local noise off the sides.
> >
> > You will increase signal level significantly by getting it up an inch or
> > two on top of the grass, but it ain't a pure BOG anymore, the VF is
> > increased significantly, and then it needs more length to be optimum at
> two
> > inches. And you will still not be able to tune it smartly like a beverage
> > using SWR to the terminating resistor.
> >
> > BOGs are a cantankerous RX antenna. You can throw a 250' wire down on top
> > of the lawn and take it up after the contest. In normal (not super quiet)
> > settings it WILL hear a lot of signals better than the inverted L. Just
> > understand that is NOT a design antenna, and was not optimized, did not
> > have the best signal to noise of a designed-for-location BOG antenna, and
> > was 

Re: Topband: BOG height

[Cecil]

Guy...a great post!  

Great information for those of us who are looking for RX antenna options but 
don’t have the room for the normal RX antennas...

And also a real breath of fresh air in light of our recent discussions..

Thank You!

Cecil
K5DL

Sent from my iPad

> On Aug 3, 2019, at 5:17 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV  wrote:
> 
> Hi, Ed,
> 
> You're on the right track.
> 
> A "beverage" ON the ground really is NOT a beverage.  For two things to be
> called the same genus, they need to have most everything in common. This is
> true of big yagis, little yagis, short yagis, long yagis, trapped yagis,
> linear loaded yagis, end loaded yagis, moxons, yagis at 30 feet and yagis
> at 200 feet, etc. One program optimizes them all. A yagi is a yagi, is a
> yagi, is a yagi, and all of them have a ton of yagi-ness held in common.
> Simply not so BOG vs. beverage.
> 
> Creating beverage advice from one particulars person's wire down close to
> or on the ground at their particular property, may be simply and totally
> wrong for someone else. The normal beverage tuning instructions, usually OK
> for wires a foot off the ground and maybe even OK to some degree for four
> inches, simply do not apply if the wire is actually laying on the ground.
> 
> A regular beverage has a decent RX signal strength. To be truthful, a
> **real** BOG needs a remote amplifier, because its output is way down from
> a real beverage. Get this much straight: an actual BOG is a LOW output
> antenna, period. The way to improve a BOG's signal output is add an amp
> (best remote), or escape BOG-iness and lift it off the ground.
> 
> If you model a real BOG, you find that beyond an ELECTRICAL half wave ON
> THE WIRE, or two hundred something feet on 160, extending the BOG wire will
> start to REVERSE the pattern. No real beverage ever does that. Just some
> beverage lengths are bit better than others FOR REAL BEVERAGES. A BOG is a
> single band antenna for optimums. It will hear stuff on other bands, but
> forget a designed pattern like you have on a beverage for several bands,
> that work WELL on several bands.
> 
> If you are even two inches above actual ground, laying on top of grass, you
> are blending the very different worlds of pure BOG and pure beverage. If
> you are at two inches, you are at a poor place to advise either owners of
> pure BOG's or pure beverages. The great problem is that exactly which type
> you are closer to depends on the vagaries of the location-specific ground
> underneath.
> 
> These vagaries wander HUGELY ( I'm talking about an actually carefully
> measured  wandering HUGELY) depending on individual properties.
> Based on those **measurements** it is a normal outcome that one end of the
> wire could be more BOG and the other end of the same wire could be more
> beverage, and even vary more depending on whether it rained in the last few
> days (or weeks depending on the local and natural drainage of the soil).
> 
> It is clear reading a lot of the posts on BOG's from the last week or two,
> that a lot of users were expecting greater signal output. Don't. A REAL
> *BOG* that was laid down, notched in the grass down to the actual ground
> surface, to get it out of sight and safe from lawn mowers, WILL sound MUCH
> better to the ear if it has an amp. Otherwise, a BOG is a LOW LEVEL RX
> antenna.
> 
> IN GENERAL, a real BOG needs an amplifier, will usually wind up somewhere
> 180 to 230 feet if you want front to back, and it's great advantage is that
> it can't be mowed, snagged by galloping deer, have tree branches knock it
> down, be seen by unfriendly neighbors and it will do roughly as well as a
> single direction K9AY, but without the AY's ugly wires above the ground, IF
> it's amplified. If the feed circuitry is done correctly, a BOG will be
> wonderful at reducing local noise off the sides.
> 
> You will increase signal level significantly by getting it up an inch or
> two on top of the grass, but it ain't a pure BOG anymore, the VF is
> increased significantly, and then it needs more length to be optimum at two
> inches. And you will still not be able to tune it smartly like a beverage
> using SWR to the terminating resistor.
> 
> BOGs are a cantankerous RX antenna. You can throw a 250' wire down on top
> of the lawn and take it up after the contest. In normal (not super quiet)
> settings it WILL hear a lot of signals better than the inverted L. Just
> understand that is NOT a design antenna, and was not optimized, did not
> have the best signal to noise of a designed-for-location BOG antenna, and
> was not as good as a beverage.
> 
> We know what the issues are, but new-comers to the BOG idea just don't know
> the vagaries and how to squeeze the best out of on THEIR property.
> 
> The category is Ground Low Velocity Factor (GLVF) antennas. DOGs, LOGs and
> BOGs. If they're up in the air, even two inches, they're likely NOT GLVF.
> GLVF are low output RX antennas. If you are looking for high signal output
> 

Re: Topband: BOG height

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Hi, Ed,

You're on the right track.

A "beverage" ON the ground really is NOT a beverage.  For two things to be
called the same genus, they need to have most everything in common. This is
true of big yagis, little yagis, short yagis, long yagis, trapped yagis,
linear loaded yagis, end loaded yagis, moxons, yagis at 30 feet and yagis
at 200 feet, etc. One program optimizes them all. A yagi is a yagi, is a
yagi, is a yagi, and all of them have a ton of yagi-ness held in common.
Simply not so BOG vs. beverage.

Creating beverage advice from one particulars person's wire down close to
or on the ground at their particular property, may be simply and totally
wrong for someone else. The normal beverage tuning instructions, usually OK
for wires a foot off the ground and maybe even OK to some degree for four
inches, simply do not apply if the wire is actually laying on the ground.

A regular beverage has a decent RX signal strength. To be truthful, a
**real** BOG needs a remote amplifier, because its output is way down from
a real beverage. Get this much straight: an actual BOG is a LOW output
antenna, period. The way to improve a BOG's signal output is add an amp
(best remote), or escape BOG-iness and lift it off the ground.

If you model a real BOG, you find that beyond an ELECTRICAL half wave ON
THE WIRE, or two hundred something feet on 160, extending the BOG wire will
start to REVERSE the pattern. No real beverage ever does that. Just some
beverage lengths are bit better than others FOR REAL BEVERAGES. A BOG is a
single band antenna for optimums. It will hear stuff on other bands, but
forget a designed pattern like you have on a beverage for several bands,
that work WELL on several bands.

If you are even two inches above actual ground, laying on top of grass, you
are blending the very different worlds of pure BOG and pure beverage. If
you are at two inches, you are at a poor place to advise either owners of
pure BOG's or pure beverages. The great problem is that exactly which type
you are closer to depends on the vagaries of the location-specific ground
underneath.

These vagaries wander HUGELY ( I'm talking about an actually carefully
measured  wandering HUGELY) depending on individual properties.
Based on those **measurements** it is a normal outcome that one end of the
wire could be more BOG and the other end of the same wire could be more
beverage, and even vary more depending on whether it rained in the last few
days (or weeks depending on the local and natural drainage of the soil).

It is clear reading a lot of the posts on BOG's from the last week or two,
that a lot of users were expecting greater signal output. Don't. A REAL
*BOG* that was laid down, notched in the grass down to the actual ground
surface, to get it out of sight and safe from lawn mowers, WILL sound MUCH
better to the ear if it has an amp. Otherwise, a BOG is a LOW LEVEL RX
antenna.

IN GENERAL, a real BOG needs an amplifier, will usually wind up somewhere
180 to 230 feet if you want front to back, and it's great advantage is that
it can't be mowed, snagged by galloping deer, have tree branches knock it
down, be seen by unfriendly neighbors and it will do roughly as well as a
single direction K9AY, but without the AY's ugly wires above the ground, IF
it's amplified. If the feed circuitry is done correctly, a BOG will be
wonderful at reducing local noise off the sides.

You will increase signal level significantly by getting it up an inch or
two on top of the grass, but it ain't a pure BOG anymore, the VF is
increased significantly, and then it needs more length to be optimum at two
inches. And you will still not be able to tune it smartly like a beverage
using SWR to the terminating resistor.

BOGs are a cantankerous RX antenna. You can throw a 250' wire down on top
of the lawn and take it up after the contest. In normal (not super quiet)
settings it WILL hear a lot of signals better than the inverted L. Just
understand that is NOT a design antenna, and was not optimized, did not
have the best signal to noise of a designed-for-location BOG antenna, and
was not as good as a beverage.

We know what the issues are, but new-comers to the BOG idea just don't know
the vagaries and how to squeeze the best out of on THEIR property.

The category is Ground Low Velocity Factor (GLVF) antennas. DOGs, LOGs and
BOGs. If they're up in the air, even two inches, they're likely NOT GLVF.
GLVF are low output RX antennas. If you are looking for high signal output
from the antenna without an amplifier, just forget GLVF.

Been there, done all of that.

73, Guy K2AV


On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 2:57 PM Ed Sawyer  wrote:

> Isn't  BOG still a beverage just with more ground coupling loss because its
> literally "on the ground"?  So the typical answer on beverages seems to be
> that 4 - 10 ft above the ground is low enough to eliminate the undesired
> noise but high enough to reduce the losses from being too low to the
> ground.
> A BOG is a beverage 

Re: Topband: BOG height

[Hermod Pedersen]

That is absolutely so.
I have been using BOG's for years, running them in and out on the neighbor 
farmer's field, until a friend of mine told me that I really must raise the 
wire.
Having done so during the last winter, with kind permission from the farmer, I 
can tell you that Chuck is spot on. Raise the wire above the ground, and It's 
totally different. While I use my antennas for MW DXing, it should be the same 
for topband DX.
With the BOGs I could, on a nice night, hear some fair long distance stations, 
with an elevated wire I now regularly can catch Andean MW stations in my 
location, which is Sweden. summer or winter.
/hermod

>Ursprungligt meddelande
>Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 12:23:10 -0500
>From: Chuck Dietz 
>To: Paul Mclaren 
>Cc: Topband 
>Subject: Re: Topband: BOG height
>Message-ID:
>   
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
>When I tried a BOG compared to a Beverage, I found the BOG to be almost
>useless compared to the Beverage. I would put up one of the arrays K9AY,
>SAL-30, 4sq rec, etc.
>I don't think you will be happy with a BOG after using a Beverage.
>
>Chuck W5PR
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: BOG height

[Paul Mclaren]

Lee,

It definitely isn’t arid round here.

Paul


On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 at 20:00, Lee. KX4TT via Topband 
wrote:

> Moisture can adversely affect a BOGs performance. BOGs work best in arid
> climates...so if you see me running around with a Ladies Heat
> Gun (hair dryer) in the middle of the night
>
> Lee KX4TT
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Harald
> Rester
> Sent: Thursday, 1 August, 2019 14:55
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: BOG height
>
> Paul,
>
> the higher the wire, the more output of the antenna, but all other
> paramters changes as well. I can say definitely that a unidirectional BOG
> with 270ft works ways better than a beverage with the same size (abt
> Lambda/2 on 160m) My BOGs have the W7IUV Preamp, works fine.
>
> 73!
>
> Am 01.08.2019 um 20:10 schrieb Paul Mclaren:
> > Thanks so far, interesting that it doesn’t always work well for everyone.
> > I am working on a compromise here so any result is a bit of a gain.
> >
> > Don’t worry I get the ON the ground part, just looking for practical
> > advice does that mean insulation of the wire touching for the whole
> > run or slightly above and at what point does it no longer be on the
> ground1
> > inch, 6 inches?   Does it the gain get sharper as the wire height
> changes?
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 at 19:01, Wes  wrote:
> >
> >> Doesn't "BOG" mean, Beverage On Ground?  If so, isn't the a nswer,
> >> "on the ground"?
> >>
> >> Wes  N7WS
> >>
> >> On 8/1/2019 10:08 AM, Paul Mclaren wrote:
> >>> Just a ‘simple’ question hopefully - How close to the ground should
> >>> a BOG be for best/good performance?
> >>>
> >>> I am looking for any additional info that I can get to supplement
> >>> what I have found online already so good on the balun, wire type and
> >>> termination resistor.
> >>>
> >>> My single unterminated beverage I have at the moment was
> >>> transformational compared to a Wellbrooke loop but the location it
> >>> is in will soon be 80
> >> new
> >>> homes so time to look elsewhere.  Current plan is a small number
> >>> (maybe
> >>> three) BOG antennas switched by a remote relay but distance is
> >>> limited to 200ft maximum in any direction.
> >>>
> >>> Plan is to use the BOGs for 160 but also 80,40 and maybe 30m.
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>>
> >>> Paul MM0ZBH
> >>> _
> >>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> >> Reflector
> >>
> >>
> >> _
> >> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> >> Reflector
> >>
> > _
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> > Reflector
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
_
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Re: Topband: BOG height

[Lee. KX4TT via Topband]

Moisture can adversely affect a BOGs performance. BOGs work best in arid 
climates...so if you see me running around with a Ladies Heat Gun 
(hair dryer) in the middle of the night

Lee KX4TT

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Harald Rester
Sent: Thursday, 1 August, 2019 14:55 
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: BOG height

Paul,

the higher the wire, the more output of the antenna, but all other paramters 
changes as well. I can say definitely that a unidirectional BOG with 270ft 
works ways better than a beverage with the same size (abt
Lambda/2 on 160m) My BOGs have the W7IUV Preamp, works fine.

73!

Am 01.08.2019 um 20:10 schrieb Paul Mclaren:
> Thanks so far, interesting that it doesn’t always work well for everyone.
> I am working on a compromise here so any result is a bit of a gain.
>
> Don’t worry I get the ON the ground part, just looking for practical 
> advice does that mean insulation of the wire touching for the whole 
> run or slightly above and at what point does it no longer be on the 
> ground1
> inch, 6 inches?   Does it the gain get sharper as the wire height changes?
>
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
>
> On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 at 19:01, Wes  wrote:
>
>> Doesn't "BOG" mean, Beverage On Ground?  If so, isn't the a nswer, 
>> "on the ground"?
>>
>> Wes  N7WS
>>
>> On 8/1/2019 10:08 AM, Paul Mclaren wrote:
>>> Just a ‘simple’ question hopefully - How close to the ground should 
>>> a BOG be for best/good performance?
>>>
>>> I am looking for any additional info that I can get to supplement 
>>> what I have found online already so good on the balun, wire type and 
>>> termination resistor.
>>>
>>> My single unterminated beverage I have at the moment was 
>>> transformational compared to a Wellbrooke loop but the location it 
>>> is in will soon be 80
>> new
>>> homes so time to look elsewhere.  Current plan is a small number 
>>> (maybe
>>> three) BOG antennas switched by a remote relay but distance is 
>>> limited to 200ft maximum in any direction.
>>>
>>> Plan is to use the BOGs for 160 but also 80,40 and maybe 30m.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Paul MM0ZBH
>>> _
>>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>> Reflector
>>
>>
>> _
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband 
>> Reflector
>>
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband 
> Reflector
_
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_
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Re: Topband: BOG height

[Ed Sawyer]

Isn't  BOG still a beverage just with more ground coupling loss because its
literally "on the ground"?  So the typical answer on beverages seems to be
that 4 - 10 ft above the ground is low enough to eliminate the undesired
noise but high enough to reduce the losses from being too low to the ground.
A BOG is a beverage with higher than desired losses.  But if its long
enough, pointed in the right direction, and your ground conductivity is
accommodating, its less of a trade than the reverse of those items.

 

I have had a few unplanned BOGs that were discovered as "on the ground"
because of some supports falling down.  I could immediately hear the
difference, but they still worked.  Would they be usable if that was my only
option?  Sure.  Just not as good as the same wire at 6 - 8 ft.

 

I use 650 - 1000 ft terminated beverages and they are quite amazing.  My
ground condition is lossy and I don't have much local noise to null out.
Its pretty much all atmospheric noise.

 

Ed  N1UR

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: BOG height

[Harald Rester]

Paul,

the higher the wire, the more output of the antenna, but all other
paramters changes as well. I can say definitely that a unidirectional
BOG with 270ft works ways better than a beverage with the same size (abt
Lambda/2 on 160m) My BOGs have the W7IUV Preamp, works fine.

73!

Am 01.08.2019 um 20:10 schrieb Paul Mclaren:

Thanks so far, interesting that it doesn’t always work well for everyone.
I am working on a compromise here so any result is a bit of a gain.

Don’t worry I get the ON the ground part, just looking for practical advice
does that mean insulation of the wire touching for the whole run or
slightly above and at what point does it no longer be on the ground1
inch, 6 inches?   Does it the gain get sharper as the wire height changes?


Regards

Paul

On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 at 19:01, Wes  wrote:


Doesn't "BOG" mean, Beverage On Ground?  If so, isn't the a nswer, "on the
ground"?

Wes  N7WS

On 8/1/2019 10:08 AM, Paul Mclaren wrote:

Just a ‘simple’ question hopefully - How close to the ground should a BOG
be for best/good performance?

I am looking for any additional info that I can get to supplement what I
have found online already so good on the balun, wire type and termination
resistor.

My single unterminated beverage I have at the moment was transformational
compared to a Wellbrooke loop but the location it is in will soon be 80

new

homes so time to look elsewhere.  Current plan is a small number (maybe
three) BOG antennas switched by a remote relay but distance is limited to
200ft maximum in any direction.

Plan is to use the BOGs for 160 but also 80,40 and maybe 30m.

Regards

Paul MM0ZBH
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband

Reflector


_
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Reflector


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_
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Re: Topband: BOG height

[Mike Waters]

Joe, ~200' is what most folks report as being a good BOG length on 160. The
close proximity to the earth requires a shorter length due to the reduced
VF.

http://www.w0btu.com/Beverage_antennas.html#Beverage_On_the_Ground
has a little BOG info. But the best source of info can only be found by
searching the Topband Archives for those three search terms that I
mentioned in an earlier post here today.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com



On Thu, Aug 1, 2019, 1:29 PM Joe  wrote:

> beverages have always fascinated me. But I have never had the property
> to have one.
>
> I might now, BUT, how do you know how long and what direction to lay it
> out to maximize signal to the desired direction?
>
> I assume the longer it is, the higher gain it has and more towards the
> ends the lobe is?
>
> Joe WB9SBD
> Sig
> The Original Rolling Ball Clock
> Idle Tyme
> Idle-Tyme.com
> http://www.idle-tyme.com
> On 8/1/2019 1:01 PM, Wes wrote:
> > Doesn't "BOG" mean, Beverage On Ground?  If so, isn't the answer, "on
> > the ground"?
> >
> > Wes  N7WS
> >
> > On 8/1/2019 10:08 AM, Paul Mclaren wrote:
> >> Just a ‘simple’ question hopefully - How close to the ground should a
> >> BOG
> >> be for best/good performance?
> >>
> >> I am looking for any additional info that I can get to supplement what I
> >> have found online already so good on the balun, wire type and
> >> termination
> >> resistor.
> >>
> >> My single unterminated beverage I have at the moment was
> >> transformational
> >> compared to a Wellbrooke loop but the location it is in will soon be
> >> 80 new
> >> homes so time to look elsewhere.  Current plan is a small number (maybe
> >> three) BOG antennas switched by a remote relay but distance is
> >> limited to
> >> 200ft maximum in any direction.
> >>
> >> Plan is to use the BOGs for 160 but also 80,40 and maybe 30m.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Paul MM0ZBH
> >> _
> >> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> >> Reflector
> >
> >
> > _
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> > Reflector
>
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
_
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Re: Topband: BOG height

[Bill Cromwell]

Hi,

I don't have room for a 160 meter BOG here.I have been thinking of 
experimenting some wire on the ground at least for 80, 40, maybe 30 
meters. I can only get by deploying at night and rolling them up when I 
QRT. Anything above toe and ankle height but lower than head height 
would endanger lives here - even at night.


73,

Bill  KU8H

On 8/1/19 2:18 PM, Mike Waters wrote:

Hi Wes,

Yes, that's what it means. :-) But at my QTH, a BOG would have to lie on
the pasture grass, a couple of inches from the soil.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Thu, Aug 1, 2019, 1:01 PM Wes  wrote:


Doesn't "BOG" mean, Beverage On Ground?  If so, isn't the answer, "on the
ground"?

Wes  N7WS



_
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--
bark less - wag more
_
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Re: Topband: BOG height

[Joe]

beverages have always fascinated me. But I have never had the property 
to have one.


I might now, BUT, how do you know how long and what direction to lay it 
out to maximize signal to the desired direction?


I assume the longer it is, the higher gain it has and more towards the 
ends the lobe is?


Joe WB9SBD
Sig
The Original Rolling Ball Clock
Idle Tyme
Idle-Tyme.com
http://www.idle-tyme.com
On 8/1/2019 1:01 PM, Wes wrote:
Doesn't "BOG" mean, Beverage On Ground?  If so, isn't the answer, "on 
the ground"?


Wes  N7WS

On 8/1/2019 10:08 AM, Paul Mclaren wrote:
Just a ‘simple’ question hopefully - How close to the ground should a 
BOG

be for best/good performance?

I am looking for any additional info that I can get to supplement what I
have found online already so good on the balun, wire type and 
termination

resistor.

My single unterminated beverage I have at the moment was 
transformational
compared to a Wellbrooke loop but the location it is in will soon be 
80 new

homes so time to look elsewhere.  Current plan is a small number (maybe
three) BOG antennas switched by a remote relay but distance is 
limited to

200ft maximum in any direction.

Plan is to use the BOGs for 160 but also 80,40 and maybe 30m.

Regards

Paul MM0ZBH
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband 
Reflector



_
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Reflector


_
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Re: Topband: BOG height

[K4SAV]

On 8/1/2019 12:36 PM, Mark K3MSB wrote:

I’ve used BOGs and RBOGs at 200 feet length laying on the ground. The
BOG worked great,  the RBOG worked good, but not as good as the BOG.
I agree with K3MSB's conclusions about BOGs.  I have also done a lot of 
experimenting with reversible BOGs and single direction BOGs. Gain of 
the RBOG will be less than that of the single direction BOG.  Impedance 
of the ground rod translates into loss for the RBOG but it is only part 
of the termination resistance for the single direction BOG. The RBOG 
will also not have the same gain in both directions if you build it like 
most people do.  There is a way to fix this problem and that is to use 2 
reflection transformers and feed it in the in middle.  The whole length 
of the wire will be used in both directions and the gain will be the 
same in both directions.  The worst feature of the RBOG at my house is 
that critters like to chew on the wires.  A single wire is a lot easier 
to repair than RG-6.


A BOG is a good antenna but I'm not sure exactly what its RDF number 
is.  NEC doesn't do well for BOGs.  I can calculate an RDF of over 11 
for a 366 ft BOG using NEC but I'm sure that is NOT correct. When 
comparing it to another receiving antenna that has an RDF of 11.1, I 
estimate the BOG is between 9.5 and 10.


A BOG is a pretty simple antenna but there are ways to screw it up. The 
gain is low so you have to be very careful about suppressing common mode 
currents.  And don't aim it at your house and don't run it close to the 
house.


Jerry, K4SAV
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: BOG height

[Mike Waters]

Hi Wes,

Yes, that's what it means. :-) But at my QTH, a BOG would have to lie on
the pasture grass, a couple of inches from the soil.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Thu, Aug 1, 2019, 1:01 PM Wes  wrote:

> Doesn't "BOG" mean, Beverage On Ground?  If so, isn't the answer, "on the
> ground"?
>
> Wes  N7WS
>
>
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: BOG height

[Bill Cromwell]

Hi Wes,

That's what I thought too. But what di I know. I also wonder who is 
buried in Grant's tomb.


73,

Bill  KU8H

On 8/1/19 2:01 PM, Wes wrote:
Doesn't "BOG" mean, Beverage On Ground?  If so, isn't the answer, "on 
the ground"?


Wes  N7WS

On 8/1/2019 10:08 AM, Paul Mclaren wrote:

Just a ‘simple’ question hopefully - How close to the ground should a BOG
be for best/good performance?

I am looking for any additional info that I can get to supplement what I
have found online already so good on the balun, wire type and termination
resistor.

My single unterminated beverage I have at the moment was transformational
compared to a Wellbrooke loop but the location it is in will soon be 
80 new

homes so time to look elsewhere.  Current plan is a small number (maybe
three) BOG antennas switched by a remote relay but distance is limited to
200ft maximum in any direction.

Plan is to use the BOGs for 160 but also 80,40 and maybe 30m.

Regards

Paul MM0ZBH
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband 
Reflector



_
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--
bark less - wag more
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: BOG height

[Paul Mclaren]

Thanks so far, interesting that it doesn’t always work well for everyone.
I am working on a compromise here so any result is a bit of a gain.

Don’t worry I get the ON the ground part, just looking for practical advice
does that mean insulation of the wire touching for the whole run or
slightly above and at what point does it no longer be on the ground1
inch, 6 inches?   Does it the gain get sharper as the wire height changes?


Regards

Paul

On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 at 19:01, Wes  wrote:

> Doesn't "BOG" mean, Beverage On Ground?  If so, isn't the answer, "on the
> ground"?
>
> Wes  N7WS
>
> On 8/1/2019 10:08 AM, Paul Mclaren wrote:
> > Just a ‘simple’ question hopefully - How close to the ground should a BOG
> > be for best/good performance?
> >
> > I am looking for any additional info that I can get to supplement what I
> > have found online already so good on the balun, wire type and termination
> > resistor.
> >
> > My single unterminated beverage I have at the moment was transformational
> > compared to a Wellbrooke loop but the location it is in will soon be 80
> new
> > homes so time to look elsewhere.  Current plan is a small number (maybe
> > three) BOG antennas switched by a remote relay but distance is limited to
> > 200ft maximum in any direction.
> >
> > Plan is to use the BOGs for 160 but also 80,40 and maybe 30m.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Paul MM0ZBH
> > _
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
>
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
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Re: Topband: BOG height

[Wes]

Doesn't "BOG" mean, Beverage On Ground?  If so, isn't the answer, "on the 
ground"?

Wes  N7WS

On 8/1/2019 10:08 AM, Paul Mclaren wrote:

Just a ‘simple’ question hopefully - How close to the ground should a BOG
be for best/good performance?

I am looking for any additional info that I can get to supplement what I
have found online already so good on the balun, wire type and termination
resistor.

My single unterminated beverage I have at the moment was transformational
compared to a Wellbrooke loop but the location it is in will soon be 80 new
homes so time to look elsewhere.  Current plan is a small number (maybe
three) BOG antennas switched by a remote relay but distance is limited to
200ft maximum in any direction.

Plan is to use the BOGs for 160 but also 80,40 and maybe 30m.

Regards

Paul MM0ZBH
_
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Re: Topband: BOG height

[Harald Rester]

I have very good experiences with terminated BOGs as well. I have three
of them. On 160m I can hear from VE6 to VP9, ZS, ZL, VK, UA0, JA. But as
mentioned before, you have to try different lengths - some work fine,
some doesnt. My east BOG is very good in contrast to my west BOG which
is so la la, both have abt 90m.

GL,

Harry, DH1NBE

Am 01.08.2019 um 19:08 schrieb Paul Mclaren:

Just a ‘simple’ question hopefully - How close to the ground should a BOG
be for best/good performance?

I am looking for any additional info that I can get to supplement what I
have found online already so good on the balun, wire type and termination
resistor.

My single unterminated beverage I have at the moment was transformational
compared to a Wellbrooke loop but the location it is in will soon be 80 new
homes so time to look elsewhere.  Current plan is a small number (maybe
three) BOG antennas switched by a remote relay but distance is limited to
200ft maximum in any direction.

Plan is to use the BOGs for 160 but also 80,40 and maybe 30m.

Regards

Paul MM0ZBH
_
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Re: Topband: BOG height

[Mark K3MSB]

I used 8 foot ground  rods for the BOG and 4 foot  ground  rods for the
RBOG.

Mark K3MSB

On Thu, Aug 1, 2019, 1:36 PM Mark K3MSB  wrote:

> I’ve used BOGs and RBOGs at 200 feet length laying on the ground. The
> BOG worked great,  the RBOG worked good, but not as good as the BOG.
>
>  Others tried them in my local area based upon my experiences and said
> they didn’t work at all.
>
>  This is typical of people that have used / tried BOGs.
>
>  73 Mark K3MSB
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 1, 2019, 1:08 PM Paul Mclaren  wrote:
>
>> Just a ‘simple’ question hopefully - How close to the ground should a BOG
>> be for best/good performance?
>>
>> I am looking for any additional info that I can get to supplement what I
>> have found online already so good on the balun, wire type and termination
>> resistor.
>>
>> My single unterminated beverage I have at the moment was transformational
>> compared to a Wellbrooke loop but the location it is in will soon be 80
>> new
>> homes so time to look elsewhere.  Current plan is a small number (maybe
>> three) BOG antennas switched by a remote relay but distance is limited to
>> 200ft maximum in any direction.
>>
>> Plan is to use the BOGs for 160 but also 80,40 and maybe 30m.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Paul MM0ZBH
>> _
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>> Reflector
>>
>
_
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Re: Topband: BOG height

[Mark K3MSB]

I’ve used BOGs and RBOGs at 200 feet length laying on the ground. The
BOG worked great,  the RBOG worked good, but not as good as the BOG.

 Others tried them in my local area based upon my experiences and said they
didn’t work at all.

 This is typical of people that have used / tried BOGs.

 73 Mark K3MSB


On Thu, Aug 1, 2019, 1:08 PM Paul Mclaren  wrote:

> Just a ‘simple’ question hopefully - How close to the ground should a BOG
> be for best/good performance?
>
> I am looking for any additional info that I can get to supplement what I
> have found online already so good on the balun, wire type and termination
> resistor.
>
> My single unterminated beverage I have at the moment was transformational
> compared to a Wellbrooke loop but the location it is in will soon be 80 new
> homes so time to look elsewhere.  Current plan is a small number (maybe
> three) BOG antennas switched by a remote relay but distance is limited to
> 200ft maximum in any direction.
>
> Plan is to use the BOGs for 160 but also 80,40 and maybe 30m.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul MM0ZBH
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
_
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Re: Topband: BOG height

[Mike Waters]

Some folks don't have room for a 580' Beverage. BOGs are easy to install,
but I have never heard of anyone who raved about their performance. :-)

How long was your BOG, what type of ground was it over, and how high was
it?

If you search the archives for the three keywords K2AV BOG DOG, there is
excellent information there about this not available anywhere else.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Thu, Aug 1, 2019, 12:23 PM Chuck Dietz  wrote:

> When I tried a BOG compared to a Beverage, I found the BOG to be almost
> useless compared to the Beverage. I would put up one of the arrays K9AY,
> SAL-30, 4sq rec, etc.
> I don't think you will be happy with a BOG after using a Beverage.
>
> Chuck W5PR
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
_
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Re: Topband: BOG height

[Paul Mclaren]

Chuck,

I don’t have any directivity at the moment so I am hoping that I will gain
that over the current situation.  Time will tell I suppose.

I can really do anything too visible like a K9AY etc as it isn’t my land
just a space borrowed over the quieter months.

Regards

Paul MM0ZBH

On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 at 18:23, Chuck Dietz  wrote:

> When I tried a BOG compared to a Beverage, I found the BOG to be almost
> useless compared to the Beverage. I would put up one of the arrays K9AY,
> SAL-30, 4sq rec, etc.
> I don't think you will be happy with a BOG after using a Beverage.
>
> Chuck W5PR
>
> On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 12:08 PM Paul Mclaren  wrote:
>
>> Just a ‘simple’ question hopefully - How close to the ground should a BOG
>> be for best/good performance?
>>
>> I am looking for any additional info that I can get to supplement what I
>> have found online already so good on the balun, wire type and termination
>> resistor.
>>
>> My single unterminated beverage I have at the moment was transformational
>> compared to a Wellbrooke loop but the location it is in will soon be 80
>> new
>> homes so time to look elsewhere.  Current plan is a small number (maybe
>> three) BOG antennas switched by a remote relay but distance is limited to
>> 200ft maximum in any direction.
>>
>> Plan is to use the BOGs for 160 but also 80,40 and maybe 30m.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Paul MM0ZBH
>> _
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>> Reflector
>>
>
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Re: Topband: BOG height

[John Harden, D.M.D.]

It's hard to beat the Hi-Z arrays when you have limited space..

73,

John, W4NU

On 8/1/2019 1:23 PM, Chuck Dietz wrote:

When I tried a BOG compared to a Beverage, I found the BOG to be almost
useless compared to the Beverage. I would put up one of the arrays K9AY,
SAL-30, 4sq rec, etc.
I don't think you will be happy with a BOG after using a Beverage.

Chuck W5PR

On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 12:08 PM Paul Mclaren  wrote:


Just a ???simple??? question hopefully - How close to the ground should a BOG
be for best/good performance?

I am looking for any additional info that I can get to supplement what I
have found online already so good on the balun, wire type and termination
resistor.

My single unterminated beverage I have at the moment was transformational
compared to a Wellbrooke loop but the location it is in will soon be 80 new
homes so time to look elsewhere.  Current plan is a small number (maybe
three) BOG antennas switched by a remote relay but distance is limited to
200ft maximum in any direction.

Plan is to use the BOGs for 160 but also 80,40 and maybe 30m.

Regards

Paul MM0ZBH
_
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Reflector


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Re: Topband: BOG height

[Chuck Dietz]

When I tried a BOG compared to a Beverage, I found the BOG to be almost
useless compared to the Beverage. I would put up one of the arrays K9AY,
SAL-30, 4sq rec, etc.
I don't think you will be happy with a BOG after using a Beverage.

Chuck W5PR

On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 12:08 PM Paul Mclaren  wrote:

> Just a ‘simple’ question hopefully - How close to the ground should a BOG
> be for best/good performance?
>
> I am looking for any additional info that I can get to supplement what I
> have found online already so good on the balun, wire type and termination
> resistor.
>
> My single unterminated beverage I have at the moment was transformational
> compared to a Wellbrooke loop but the location it is in will soon be 80 new
> homes so time to look elsewhere.  Current plan is a small number (maybe
> three) BOG antennas switched by a remote relay but distance is limited to
> 200ft maximum in any direction.
>
> Plan is to use the BOGs for 160 but also 80,40 and maybe 30m.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul MM0ZBH
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
_
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Re: Topband: BOG near noisy powerline on 160

[David Olean]

Are you sure that you are hearing power line noise from the antenna, or 
possibly you are hearing a common mode signal that has bullied its way 
into your antenna system by getting on the outside of your feedline.  Is 
your feed line decoupled at each end with ferrite coax chokes?  The 
choke must be installed about 20-25 ft from the antenna transformer and 
have its own ground rod. There should be another ground rod and choke 
where the coax enters your building.  You might also have energy getting 
into the BOG system from another feeder or wire antenna that may be 
picking up noise and coupling it into the BOG system.   Why do I say 
this? (Been there, done that!) Most of my power line noise was common 
mode energy picked up from other places.


Dave K1WHS

On 2/8/2019 4:31 PM, N4ZR wrote:
Recently I put down a 220' BOG, using the KD9SV hardware, including 
the preamp. Because of my yard's layout, the forward end of the BOG 
fell within about 20 feet of what the power company has identified 
(but not fixed yet), a noisy line with a number of broken insulators.


I came in to listen to the antenna, and was surprised to note that my 
noise (mostly from the powerline, by ear) is worse on the BOG than on 
my jury-rigged sloper transmit antenna.  It is much (maybe 20 dB) 
worse in the direction toward the power line than in the opposite.  
While I take this as encouraging evidence that the BOG has some 
directivity, I don't think I'm even hearing any atmospheric noise that 
may be present, because of the power line.


So now I'm wondering, is the BOG in this position worth keeping, even 
assuming that I can eventually get the power company to fix the line. 
Or should I look at another type of receiving antenna, such as a K9AY 
loop or SAL, which can be placed much farther from the power line?



_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: BOG near noisy powerline on 160

[donovanf]

Hi Pete, 


Unfortunately you've installed your BOG so that the power line 
is in the near field of your antenna. 



Antennas fully develop their directive patterns in the far field, not 
in the near field. Large antennas develop their directivity far 
from the antenna, small antennas develop their directivity much 
closer to the antenna. 


Very large arrays such as phased 1000 foot Beverages and 350 foot 
diameter 8 circle arrays develop their directivity 1000 feet or more 
from the antenna. 


Small antennas such as "magnetic" loops, K9AY and VE3DO loops 
develop their directivity less than 100 feet from the antenna. 


In your situation the best choice is a small antenna such as a VE3DO 
loop as far from the power line as possible. A small magnetic loop 
is capable of completely nulling a single RFI source but it has much 
lower sensitivity that a VE3DO loop. Talk to PVRC member N3HEE 
about his results with a small magnetic loop in his challenging RFI 
environment on a small lot. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "N4ZR"  
To: "topband reflector"  
Sent: Friday, February 8, 2019 4:31:29 PM 
Subject: Topband: BOG near noisy powerline on 160 

Recently I put down a 220' BOG, using the KD9SV hardware, including the 
preamp. Because of my yard's layout, the forward end of the BOG fell 
within about 20 feet of what the power company has identified (but not 
fixed yet), a noisy line with a number of broken insulators. 

I came in to listen to the antenna, and was surprised to note that my 
noise (mostly from the powerline, by ear) is worse on the BOG than on my 
jury-rigged sloper transmit antenna. It is much (maybe 20 dB) worse in 
the direction toward the power line than in the opposite. While I take 
this as encouraging evidence that the BOG has some directivity, I don't 
think I'm even hearing any atmospheric noise that may be present, 
because of the power line. 

So now I'm wondering, is the BOG in this position worth keeping, even 
assuming that I can eventually get the power company to fix the line. Or 
should I look at another type of receiving antenna, such as a K9AY loop 
or SAL, which can be placed much farther from the power line? 

-- 

73, Pete N4ZR 
Check out the Reverse Beacon Network 
at , now 
spotting RTTY activity worldwide. 
For spots, please use your favorite 
"retail" DX cluster. 

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Re: Topband: BOG near noisy power line on 160

[Ian Fugler]

If the 'noisy' line is an HV one, I would terminate my beverage well short of 
20 feet.  My north beverage picks ups pwr line noise when the wx is rain, 
drizzle, snow, foggy, misty... It ends about 80 feet short of 11KV lines.  I 
would not dare go any closer than that, not because of the noise but because of 
the safety aspect.

I have four EWEs about 200 feet from the pwr lines and they are generally) 
clear of noise from the pwr lines.

73,

Ian G4IIY



-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Greg - ZL3IX
Sent: 08 February 2019 18:46
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: BOG near noisy powerline on 160

If I were in your situation I would go for the smaller antenna further 
away from the line. I would then take a sample of noise from the line 
using an antenna right under it and use the sample to try and cancel out 
some of the noise on the Rx antenna, à la WA1ION. See here

http://www.pa4tim.nl/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/passive_bb_phasing.pdf

73, Greg, ZL3IX

On 2019-02-09 05:31 a.m., N4ZR wrote:
> Recently I put down a 220' BOG, using the KD9SV hardware, including 
> the preamp. Because of my yard's layout, the forward end of the BOG 
> fell within about 20 feet of what the power company has identified 
> (but not fixed yet), a noisy line with a number of broken insulators.
>
> I came in to listen to the antenna, and was surprised to note that my 
> noise (mostly from the powerline, by ear) is worse on the BOG than on 
> my jury-rigged sloper transmit antenna.  It is much (maybe 20 dB) 
> worse in the direction toward the power line than in the opposite.  
> While I take this as encouraging evidence that the BOG has some 
> directivity, I don't think I'm even hearing any atmospheric noise that 
> may be present, because of the power line.
>
> So now I'm wondering, is the BOG in this position worth keeping, even 
> assuming that I can eventually get the power company to fix the line. 
> Or should I look at another type of receiving antenna, such as a K9AY 
> loop or SAL, which can be placed much farther from the power line?
>

_
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Re: Topband: BOG near noisy powerline on 160

[Greg - ZL3IX]

If I were in your situation I would go for the smaller antenna further 
away from the line. I would then take a sample of noise from the line 
using an antenna right under it and use the sample to try and cancel out 
some of the noise on the Rx antenna, à la WA1ION. See here


http://www.pa4tim.nl/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/passive_bb_phasing.pdf

73, Greg, ZL3IX

On 2019-02-09 05:31 a.m., N4ZR wrote:
Recently I put down a 220' BOG, using the KD9SV hardware, including 
the preamp. Because of my yard's layout, the forward end of the BOG 
fell within about 20 feet of what the power company has identified 
(but not fixed yet), a noisy line with a number of broken insulators.


I came in to listen to the antenna, and was surprised to note that my 
noise (mostly from the powerline, by ear) is worse on the BOG than on 
my jury-rigged sloper transmit antenna.  It is much (maybe 20 dB) 
worse in the direction toward the power line than in the opposite.  
While I take this as encouraging evidence that the BOG has some 
directivity, I don't think I'm even hearing any atmospheric noise that 
may be present, because of the power line.


So now I'm wondering, is the BOG in this position worth keeping, even 
assuming that I can eventually get the power company to fix the line. 
Or should I look at another type of receiving antenna, such as a K9AY 
loop or SAL, which can be placed much farther from the power line?




_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: BOG with coax or wire

[Richard Jaeger]

Andy,

I use reversible coax beverages hr - they work fine. 
I use RG-6.

Dick, K4IQJ ..

> On Mar 27, 2018, at 6:49 AM, Andree DL8LAS via Topband 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hey,
> 
> i  will test next time again with reversible bogs for 160m. 
> There is the possibility with a coax cable as antenna or two wires.
> 
> Anyone tested both ?  What is the better choice?
> 
> vy 73  Andy DL8LAS  / DR5X
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dl8las.de
> www.darc.de/distrikte/m/11/
> www.swing-company-bigband.de/
> www.uni-big-band-kiel.de/
> 
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

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Re: Topband: BOG pre amp info ?

[Lee STRAHAN]

 Hello Tim and all.
 The input impedance of the W7IUV amp is also highly dependent on the 
negative feedback found by looking at the unbypassed base bias circuit. And 
highly dependent on the size of the unbypassed emitter degeneration resistance.
There is a thorough discussion of this by Wes W7ZOI in the ARRL book 
"Experimental Methods in RF Design". 
Lee   K7TJR   OR

>Input impedance on the W7IUV preamp is determined almost entirely by the DC 
>bias currents.

>Clifton Labs used to have a really nifty set of pages on modeling and 
>measurement of the various high performance preamps. I really miss that site.

>Tim N3QE

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Roger Kennedy < ro...@wessexproductions.co.uk> 
wrote:

> Hi Don
>
> Gosh, really?  Looking at the circuit, and given the resistors used, I 
> would have thought the input impedance would be about 800 ohms . . .
>
> And hard to estimate the output impedance, but wouldn't have thought 
> it was about 50 ohms.
>
> Guess I'm wrong then !  Sorry about that.
>
> (I already built a FET pre-amp for my Loop . . . but was just 
> commenting.)
>
> 73  Roger G3YRO
>
>
>   _
>
> From: Don Kirk [mailto:wd8...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 27 November 2017 13:09
> To: Roger Kennedy
> Cc: topband
> Subject: Re: Topband: BOG pre amp info ?
>
>
>
> HI Roger,
>
>
> You said "However, the circuit seems odd . . . I used transformers in 
> and out on my Loop Preamp, to give a match to 50 ohms."
>
>
> I believe your above statement was in reference to the W7IUV preamp.  
> I've measured the W7IUV preamp input and output impedances and also 
> modeled the W7IUV preamp using LTspice, and both methods yield input 
> and output impedances of close to 50 ohms.  Therefore no additional 
> components (such as matching transformers) are required for impedance 
> matching purposes on the W7IUV preamp.
>
> Just FYI,
> Don (wd8dsb)
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 5:36 AM, Roger Kennedy 
> <ro...@wessexproductions.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> That's a nice cheap board, and worth using considering it has relay 
> switching too . . .
>
> However, the circuit seems odd . . . I used transformers in and out on 
> my Loop Preamp, to give a match to 50 ohms.
>
> Roger G3YRO
>
> 
> ---
>
> Try this guy he does good quality boards and it's easier than 
> importing from the states,
>
> https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/
> <https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/W7IUV-Beverage-preamplifier-
> PCB-for-experimenters-
> 2N5109-or-DCP68-transistor-/261634019988>
> W7IUV-Beverage-preamplifier-PCB-for-experimenters-2
> N5109-or-DCP68-transistor-/261634019988
>
> Trevor
> EI2GLB
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_ 
> <http://www.contesting.com/_topband> topband
>
>
>
> _
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>
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Re: Topband: BOG pre amp info ?

[Jan Babinec]

Hi Tim,

K8ZOA's file are available here


https://www.okdxf.eu/index.php/technika


73  Jan OM2XW

Technika - okdxf.eu<https://www.okdxf.eu/index.php/technika>
www.okdxf.eu
Zvláštní přijímací anténa (Beverage, SALA, Pennant, Flag apod.) je nutností při 
práci na pásmech 160, 80 a často i 40 m. Aby však mělo použití ...





Od: Topband <topband-boun...@contesting.com> v mene používateľa Tim Shoppa 
<tsho...@gmail.com>
Odoslané: 27. novembra 2017 15:03:26
Komu: Roger Kennedy
Kópia: topBand List
Predmet: Re: Topband: BOG pre amp info ?

Input impedance on the W7IUV preamp is determined almost entirely by the DC
bias currents.

Clifton Labs used to have a really nifty set of pages on modeling and
measurement of the various high performance preamps. I really miss that
site.

Tim N3QE

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Roger Kennedy <
ro...@wessexproductions.co.uk> wrote:

> Hi Don
>
> Gosh, really?  Looking at the circuit, and given the resistors used, I
> would
> have thought the input impedance would be about 800 ohms . . .
>
> And hard to estimate the output impedance, but wouldn't have thought it was
> about 50 ohms.
>
> Guess I'm wrong then !  Sorry about that.
>
> (I already built a FET pre-amp for my Loop . . . but was just commenting.)
>
> 73  Roger G3YRO
>
>
>   _
>
> From: Don Kirk [mailto:wd8...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 27 November 2017 13:09
> To: Roger Kennedy
> Cc: topband
> Subject: Re: Topband: BOG pre amp info ?
>
>
>
> HI Roger,
>
>
> You said "However, the circuit seems odd . . . I used transformers in and
> out on my Loop Preamp, to give a match to 50 ohms."
>
>
> I believe your above statement was in reference to the W7IUV preamp.  I've
> measured the W7IUV preamp input and output impedances and also modeled the
> W7IUV preamp using LTspice, and both methods yield input and output
> impedances of close to 50 ohms.  Therefore no additional components (such
> as
> matching transformers) are required for impedance matching purposes on the
> W7IUV preamp.
>
> Just FYI,
> Don (wd8dsb)
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 5:36 AM, Roger Kennedy
> <ro...@wessexproductions.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> That's a nice cheap board, and worth using considering it has relay
> switching too . . .
>
> However, the circuit seems odd . . . I used transformers in and out on my
> Loop Preamp, to give a match to 50 ohms.
>
> Roger G3YRO
>
> 
> ---
>
> Try this guy he does good quality boards and it's easier than importing
> from
> the states,
>
> https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/
> <https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/W7IUV-Beverage-preamplifier-
> PCB-for-experimenters-
> 2N5109-or-DCP68-transistor-/261634019988>
> W7IUV-Beverage-preamplifier-PCB-for-experimenters-2
> N5109-or-DCP68-transistor-/261634019988
>
> Trevor
> EI2GLB
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_
> <http://www.contesting.com/_topband> topband
>
>
>
> _
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>
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Re: Topband: BOG pre amp info ?

[Tim Shoppa]

Input impedance on the W7IUV preamp is determined almost entirely by the DC
bias currents.

Clifton Labs used to have a really nifty set of pages on modeling and
measurement of the various high performance preamps. I really miss that
site.

Tim N3QE

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Roger Kennedy <
ro...@wessexproductions.co.uk> wrote:

> Hi Don
>
> Gosh, really?  Looking at the circuit, and given the resistors used, I
> would
> have thought the input impedance would be about 800 ohms . . .
>
> And hard to estimate the output impedance, but wouldn't have thought it was
> about 50 ohms.
>
> Guess I'm wrong then !  Sorry about that.
>
> (I already built a FET pre-amp for my Loop . . . but was just commenting.)
>
> 73  Roger G3YRO
>
>
>   _
>
> From: Don Kirk [mailto:wd8...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 27 November 2017 13:09
> To: Roger Kennedy
> Cc: topband
> Subject: Re: Topband: BOG pre amp info ?
>
>
>
> HI Roger,
>
>
> You said "However, the circuit seems odd . . . I used transformers in and
> out on my Loop Preamp, to give a match to 50 ohms."
>
>
> I believe your above statement was in reference to the W7IUV preamp.  I've
> measured the W7IUV preamp input and output impedances and also modeled the
> W7IUV preamp using LTspice, and both methods yield input and output
> impedances of close to 50 ohms.  Therefore no additional components (such
> as
> matching transformers) are required for impedance matching purposes on the
> W7IUV preamp.
>
> Just FYI,
> Don (wd8dsb)
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 5:36 AM, Roger Kennedy
> <ro...@wessexproductions.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> That's a nice cheap board, and worth using considering it has relay
> switching too . . .
>
> However, the circuit seems odd . . . I used transformers in and out on my
> Loop Preamp, to give a match to 50 ohms.
>
> Roger G3YRO
>
> 
> ---
>
> Try this guy he does good quality boards and it's easier than importing
> from
> the states,
>
> https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/
> <https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/W7IUV-Beverage-preamplifier-
> PCB-for-experimenters-
> 2N5109-or-DCP68-transistor-/261634019988>
> W7IUV-Beverage-preamplifier-PCB-for-experimenters-2
> N5109-or-DCP68-transistor-/261634019988
>
> Trevor
> EI2GLB
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_
> <http://www.contesting.com/_topband> topband
>
>
>
> _
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>
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Re: Topband: BOG pre amp info ?

[Don Kirk]

HI Roger,

You said "However, the circuit seems odd . . . I used transformers in and
out on my Loop Preamp, to give a match to 50 ohms."

I believe your above statement was in reference to the W7IUV preamp.  I've
measured the W7IUV preamp input and output impedances and also modeled the
W7IUV preamp using LTspice, and both methods yield input and output
impedances of close to 50 ohms.  Therefore no additional components (such
as matching transformers) are required for impedance matching purposes on
the W7IUV preamp.

Just FYI,
Don (wd8dsb)

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 5:36 AM, Roger Kennedy <
ro...@wessexproductions.co.uk> wrote:

>
> That's a nice cheap board, and worth using considering it has relay
> switching too . . .
>
> However, the circuit seems odd . . . I used transformers in and out on my
> Loop Preamp, to give a match to 50 ohms.
>
> Roger G3YRO
>
> 
> ---
>
> Try this guy he does good quality boards and it's easier than importing
> from
> the states,
>
> https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/W7IUV-Beverage-preamplifier-
> PCB-for-experimenters-2
> N5109-or-DCP68-transistor-/261634019988
>
> Trevor
> EI2GLB
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
_
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Re: Topband: BOG pre amp info ?

[MR TREVOR DUNNE]

Try this guy he does good quality boards and it's easier than importing from 
the states,


https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/W7IUV-Beverage-preamplifier-PCB-for-experimenters-2N5109-or-DCP68-transistor-/261634019988

Trevor 
EI2GLB
- Original Message -
From: EdG <n...@mac.com>
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 12:01:32 - (GMT)
Subject: Re: Topband: BOG pre amp info ?

I use a KD9SV pre-amp for my reversible beverage on the ground (RBOG) available 
from DX Engineering (DXE Part number: SVP-SV-PP160RBOG). It is not a kit.  
Pre-amp works very well, is low noise and has 20db of gain

As for height, the experts say laying on the ground or a couple of inches.  I 
am not an expert here.  My RBOG is on the ground

73, 
Ed N4OC

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Re: Topband: BOG pre amp info ?

[EdG]

I use a KD9SV pre-amp for my reversible beverage on the ground (RBOG) available 
from DX Engineering (DXE Part number: SVP-SV-PP160RBOG). It is not a kit.  
Pre-amp works very well, is low noise and has 20db of gain

As for height, the experts say laying on the ground or a couple of inches.  I 
am not an expert here.  My RBOG is on the ground

73, 
Ed N4OC

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: BOG pre amp info ?

[Mike Waters]

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:14 PM, Mike Waters  wrote:

> Something quite similar to the W7IUV is what I've used for years. See
> www.w0btu.com/W0BTU-broadband-preamps.html
>
> BTW, I just removed his IMD improvement mod yesterday, hoping to see if
> the lower noise figure helped on some bands. But the reverse directions on
> my Beverages aren't working (wires shorted, I'm sure) and so I can't tell
> if there is a difference.
>
> 73, Mike
> www.w0btu.com
>
> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 2:57 PM, E.P  wrote:
>
>> hello i am still looking for a pre amp for my BOG antenna 61 meter
>> long is any one can recommend something that do work nice with the
>> BOG thank
>
>
_
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Re: Topband: BOG pre amp info ?

[Don Kirk]

Per Larrys comment, to the best of my knowledge the most current W7IUV
design is captured in his Revision 5 document, and the schematic within
this document that's the most current design is identified as follows:
Revised 13Sep09.

Here is a link to Revision 5 document:
http://www.mtmscientific.com/preamp.pdf

I built my W7IUV preamps per the "Revised 13Sep09" schematic which I'm
pretty sure is the most current design.

73,
Don (wd8dsb)

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:38 PM,  wrote:

> Larry, W7IUV, made some changes to the design over the years. It's
> important to find the latest recommended component valves for optimum
> preamp performance.
>
> GL - Steve WB6RSE
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
_
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Re: Topband: BOG pre amp info ?

[wb6rse1]

Larry, W7IUV, made some changes to the design over the years. It's important to 
find the latest recommended component valves for optimum preamp performance.

GL - Steve WB6RSE

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: BOG pre amp info ?

[Don Kirk]

I agree with Jim Murray that the W7IUV would be a good preamp to try with
your BOG.  I know of at least one online company that sells the parts and
circuit board for the W7IUV preamp and here is their URL
http://www.mtmscientific.com/preamp.html

I built a couple of the W7IUV preamps, and made my own circuit boards using
a Dremel tool.  You can see examples of my builds and circuit board design
at the following URL http://sites.google.com/site/rxpreamps/

73,
Don (wd8dsb)

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 3:57 PM, E.P  wrote:

> hello i am still looking for a pre amp for my BOG antenna 61 meter long is
> any one can recommend something that do work nice with the BOG thank you
> kind 73 elan g0uut
> is any one can tell me if i lift the bog above ground what benefit i will
> get if so how high from the ground ?
> _
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Re: Topband: BOG on sand

[Herbert Schoenbohm]

Probably it will work very good if you establish a ground on both ends 
with some spiders like radials.  3 or 4 about 60 feet long or longer 
should do it.



Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ


On 4/26/2017 1:44 PM, Art Heft wrote:

Guys, speaking of 160 meter BOGs, would one work for me?  In this part of
NE lower Michigan we have sand depth beyond measurement​.
Art K8CIT
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Re: Topband: BOG - Selecting the Optimum Length

[Mark K3MSB]

Gents

Thanks for your very quick replies, a lot via private emails – you guys are
great and this 160M JN really appreciates it.

I didn’t realize the Lloyd’s BOG was a few inches above the ground, which
makes a difference.

Mine will be on the ground (with staples at points to make sure it stays
there…..).

73 Mark K3MSB

On Oct 17, 2016 12:29 PM, "Kip Edwards" <kedwa...@ltol.com> wrote:

> Mark,
>
> The BOG here is 190 feet.  It works very well and is quite
> directional.  As a result of my experience so far, I'm thinking of a second
> one for the other directions.
>
> 73 Kip W6SZN
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Mark
> K3MSB
> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 8:35 AM
> To: Lloyd - N9LB
> Cc: topBand List
> Subject: Re: Topband: BOG - Selecting the Optimum Length
>
> Based upon N9LB’s comments,  I just emailed Bruce and told him to hold my
> order for a KB-1.
>
> I have just enough room for 200 ft for a BOG.   Extending it to 250, 290
> feet etc is NOT an option for me.
>
> From my reading,  I understood that 200 feet was not exact,  but I didn’t
> expect it to be 250 to 290 feet.   If I had known that I would not have
> even considered a BOG.
>
> With the cable, KB-1 etc (my BOG will be unidirectional to EU only,  not
> bidirectional),  I really don’t want to invest close to $200 on an antenna
> that will not do any better on RX than my Inverted-L.Saving it for a
> Hi-Z 3 may be the better option.
>
> So, with only 200 feet to play with,  is it worth it?
>
> I've no doubt BOGs work,  I may not have the room for them.
>
> 73 Mark K3MSB
>
> On Oct 17, 2016 9:35 AM, "Lloyd - N9LB" <lloydb...@charter.net> wrote:
>
> > I have been asked how I arrived at the 290 foot BOG length.
> >
> > My original 200 foot BOG had a good F/B on 80m but showed almost no
> > directivity on 160m, so this indicated to me that the BOG needed to be
> > longer to improve the 160m performance with my particular soil
> > conditions and environment.
> >
> > A search on the Internet produced recommendations for 160m BOG lengths
> > of
> > 247 to 290 feet.  Knowing that I could always shorten the wire, I went
> > with the longer number as a starting point.  That produced a greatly
> > improved 15 to 20 dB Front-to-Back ratio.
> >
> > The 290 foot length was not chosen for a good match, but that length
> > just happened to result in a good match.
> >
> > Unfortunately, I did not measure the match on my 200 ft BOG before it
> > was dismantled.
> >
> > The optimum 160m BOG length in your environment might be much
> > different from what I found at my QTH.
> >
> > - - - I think the group would benefit from hearing what others have
> > found to be their optimum BOG lengths - - -
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of
> > Lloyd - N9LB
> > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 11:06 PM
> > To: 'Topband' <topband@contesting.com>
> > Subject: Re: Topband: BOG
> >
> > My Reversible Bog uses the KD9SV transformer set.  It was originally
> > 200 feet long, just increased to 290 feet and that made a very
> > significant improvement on 160m front-to-back ratio, but hurt 80m
> performance.
> >
> > Conditions here are:
> > Wire run across a weedy field, as close to ground as possible (weeds
> > trampled down to allow the wire to be close to ground - mostly 2-4
> > inches above the actual ground).  Soil is a few inches of decent dirt,
> > about one to two feet of clay, about one to two feet of sand, and then
> > bedrock.  Tops of the five foot ground rods can't be driven completely
> > below the ground's surface.
> >
> > WX - a wetter than normal Summer and Fall here in Southern Wisconsin.
> >
> > My Antenna Analyzer shows a 1.45 : 1 match at 1825 KHz ( 75 ohm system ).
> >
> > I can send the analyzer plots to anyone that is interested.
> >
> > 73
> >
> > Lloyd - N9LB
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of
> > Charles Moizeau
> > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 10:20 PM
> > To: Lloyd - N9LB <lloydb...@charter.net>; Topband
> > <topband@contesting.com>
> > Subject: Re: Topband: BOG
> >
> > Thanks Lloyd,
> >
> > But pls tell us your wire height and approximate description of gnd
> > condx for your otherwise well-described bog.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> &g

Re: Topband: BOG - Selecting the Optimum Length

[Kip Edwards]

Mark,

The BOG here is 190 feet.  It works very well and is quite directional. 
 As a result of my experience so far, I'm thinking of a second one for the 
other directions.

73 Kip W6SZN

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Mark K3MSB
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 8:35 AM
To: Lloyd - N9LB
Cc: topBand List
Subject: Re: Topband: BOG - Selecting the Optimum Length

Based upon N9LB’s comments,  I just emailed Bruce and told him to hold my order 
for a KB-1.

I have just enough room for 200 ft for a BOG.   Extending it to 250, 290
feet etc is NOT an option for me.

From my reading,  I understood that 200 feet was not exact,  but I didn’t
expect it to be 250 to 290 feet.   If I had known that I would not have
even considered a BOG.

With the cable, KB-1 etc (my BOG will be unidirectional to EU only,  not 
bidirectional),  I really don’t want to invest close to $200 on an antenna
that will not do any better on RX than my Inverted-L.Saving it for a
Hi-Z 3 may be the better option.

So, with only 200 feet to play with,  is it worth it?

I've no doubt BOGs work,  I may not have the room for them.

73 Mark K3MSB

On Oct 17, 2016 9:35 AM, "Lloyd - N9LB" <lloydb...@charter.net> wrote:

> I have been asked how I arrived at the 290 foot BOG length.
>
> My original 200 foot BOG had a good F/B on 80m but showed almost no 
> directivity on 160m, so this indicated to me that the BOG needed to be 
> longer to improve the 160m performance with my particular soil 
> conditions and environment.
>
> A search on the Internet produced recommendations for 160m BOG lengths 
> of
> 247 to 290 feet.  Knowing that I could always shorten the wire, I went 
> with the longer number as a starting point.  That produced a greatly 
> improved 15 to 20 dB Front-to-Back ratio.
>
> The 290 foot length was not chosen for a good match, but that length 
> just happened to result in a good match.
>
> Unfortunately, I did not measure the match on my 200 ft BOG before it 
> was dismantled.
>
> The optimum 160m BOG length in your environment might be much 
> different from what I found at my QTH.
>
> - - - I think the group would benefit from hearing what others have 
> found to be their optimum BOG lengths - - -
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
> Lloyd - N9LB
> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 11:06 PM
> To: 'Topband' <topband@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: Topband: BOG
>
> My Reversible Bog uses the KD9SV transformer set.  It was originally 
> 200 feet long, just increased to 290 feet and that made a very 
> significant improvement on 160m front-to-back ratio, but hurt 80m performance.
>
> Conditions here are:
> Wire run across a weedy field, as close to ground as possible (weeds 
> trampled down to allow the wire to be close to ground - mostly 2-4 
> inches above the actual ground).  Soil is a few inches of decent dirt, 
> about one to two feet of clay, about one to two feet of sand, and then 
> bedrock.  Tops of the five foot ground rods can't be driven completely 
> below the ground's surface.
>
> WX - a wetter than normal Summer and Fall here in Southern Wisconsin.
>
> My Antenna Analyzer shows a 1.45 : 1 match at 1825 KHz ( 75 ohm system ).
>
> I can send the analyzer plots to anyone that is interested.
>
> 73
>
> Lloyd - N9LB
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
> Charles Moizeau
> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 10:20 PM
> To: Lloyd - N9LB <lloydb...@charter.net>; Topband 
> <topband@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: Topband: BOG
>
> Thanks Lloyd,
>
> But pls tell us your wire height and approximate description of gnd 
> condx for your otherwise well-described bog.
>
> 73,
>
> Charles W2SH
> 
> From: Topband <topband-boun...@contesting.com> on behalf of Lloyd - 
> N9LB <lloydb...@charter.net>
> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 7:15 PM
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: BOG
>
> Hello Tony!
>
> Ground conditions and wire height above ground make a huge difference 
> in best length.
>
> I found the optimum for my BOG, using WD-1A wire and operating at 1825 
> KHz, at my QTH is 290 feet.
>
> 73
>
> Lloyd - N9LB
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
> N2TK, Tony
> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 5:15 PM
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Topband: BOG
>
> Stretched out 200' of WD-1A along a stone wall. Kept it about 2" above 
> the ground and right up against the stones. Fed it with a 300 oh

Re: Topband: BOG - Selecting the Optimum Length

[Charlie Young]

Typing on my iPhone from the woods now.  I am testing a JK BevFlex 4 deployed 
as a bog now. Early stages.  I think the optimum length will be determined by 
the local earth characteristics.  Started by measuring a wire dipole resonance 
on the ground to determine the shortening factor from earth proximity.  Based 
on this started at 225'.  Antenna hears well and shows good f/b but condx have 
been poor. Waiting for more favorable conditions to try optimizing.  Have Hi Z 
triangle and normal bev to test against. I can already say it works much better 
than my tx inv L on 160. Another update after more testing.  Back to work now.

73 Charlie N8RR
Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 17, 2016, at 11:35 AM, Mark K3MSB <mark.k3...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Based upon N9LB’s comments,  I just emailed Bruce and told him to hold my
> order for a KB-1.
> 
> I have just enough room for 200 ft for a BOG.   Extending it to 250, 290
> feet etc is NOT an option for me.
> 
> From my reading,  I understood that 200 feet was not exact,  but I didn’t
> expect it to be 250 to 290 feet.   If I had known that I would not have
> even considered a BOG.
> 
> With the cable, KB-1 etc (my BOG will be unidirectional to EU only,  not
> bidirectional),  I really don’t want to invest close to $200 on an antenna
> that will not do any better on RX than my Inverted-L.Saving it for a
> Hi-Z 3 may be the better option.
> 
> So, with only 200 feet to play with,  is it worth it?
> 
> I've no doubt BOGs work,  I may not have the room for them.
> 
> 73 Mark K3MSB
> 
>> On Oct 17, 2016 9:35 AM, "Lloyd - N9LB" <lloydb...@charter.net> wrote:
>> 
>> I have been asked how I arrived at the 290 foot BOG length.
>> 
>> My original 200 foot BOG had a good F/B on 80m but showed almost no
>> directivity on 160m, so this indicated to me that the BOG needed to be
>> longer to improve the 160m performance with my particular soil conditions
>> and environment.
>> 
>> A search on the Internet produced recommendations for 160m BOG lengths of
>> 247 to 290 feet.  Knowing that I could always shorten the wire, I went with
>> the longer number as a starting point.  That produced a greatly improved 15
>> to 20 dB Front-to-Back ratio.
>> 
>> The 290 foot length was not chosen for a good match, but that length just
>> happened to result in a good match.
>> 
>> Unfortunately, I did not measure the match on my 200 ft BOG before it was
>> dismantled.
>> 
>> The optimum 160m BOG length in your environment might be much different
>> from
>> what I found at my QTH.
>> 
>> - - - I think the group would benefit from hearing what others have found
>> to
>> be their optimum BOG lengths - - -
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd -
>> N9LB
>> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 11:06 PM
>> To: 'Topband' <topband@contesting.com>
>> Subject: Re: Topband: BOG
>> 
>> My Reversible Bog uses the KD9SV transformer set.  It was originally 200
>> feet long, just increased to 290 feet and that made a very significant
>> improvement on 160m front-to-back ratio, but hurt 80m performance.
>> 
>> Conditions here are:
>> Wire run across a weedy field, as close to ground as possible (weeds
>> trampled down to allow the wire to be close to ground - mostly 2-4 inches
>> above the actual ground).  Soil is a few inches of decent dirt, about one
>> to
>> two feet of clay, about one to two feet of sand, and then bedrock.  Tops of
>> the five foot ground rods can't be driven completely below the ground's
>> surface.
>> 
>> WX - a wetter than normal Summer and Fall here in Southern Wisconsin.
>> 
>> My Antenna Analyzer shows a 1.45 : 1 match at 1825 KHz ( 75 ohm system ).
>> 
>> I can send the analyzer plots to anyone that is interested.
>> 
>> 73
>> 
>> Lloyd - N9LB
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Charles
>> Moizeau
>> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 10:20 PM
>> To: Lloyd - N9LB <lloydb...@charter.net>; Topband <topband@contesting.com>
>> Subject: Re: Topband: BOG
>> 
>> Thanks Lloyd,
>> 
>> But pls tell us your wire height and approximate description of gnd condx
>> for your otherwise well-described bog.
>> 
>> 73,
>> 
>> Charles W2SH
>> 
>> From: Topband <topband-boun...@contesting.com> on behalf of Lloyd - N9LB
>> <lloydb...@charter.net>
>> Sent: Sunday

Re: Topband: BOG - Selecting the Optimum Length

[Lloyd - N9LB]

Just to be clear, my original 200 foot BOG was a success – much quieter on RX 
than the vertical !

 

In my particular environment, based on my particular soil conditions, I was not 
seeing a significant directional characteristic on 160m, but the 200 foot BOG 
still outperformed the vertical and allowed me to work Heard Island, South 
Sandwich and South Georgia last season!

 

If you only have 200 feet or even a bit less than 200 feet, I still think the 
BOG is definitely the way to go.

 

I apologize if anyone was misled.

 

73

 

Lloyd – N9LB

 

From: Mark K3MSB [mailto:mark.k3...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 10:35 AM
To: Lloyd - N9LB <lloydb...@charter.net>
Cc: topBand List <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: BOG - Selecting the Optimum Length

 

Based upon N9LB’s comments,  I just emailed Bruce and told him to hold my order 
for a KB-1.

I have just enough room for 200 ft for a BOG.   Extending it to 250, 290 feet 
etc is NOT an option for me.

From my reading,  I understood that 200 feet was not exact,  but I didn’t 
expect it to be 250 to 290 feet.   If I had known that I would not have even 
considered a BOG.

With the cable, KB-1 etc (my BOG will be unidirectional to EU only,  not 
bidirectional),  I really don’t want to invest close to $200 on an antenna that 
will not do any better on RX than my Inverted-L.Saving it for a Hi-Z 3 may 
be the better option.

So, with only 200 feet to play with,  is it worth it?

I've no doubt BOGs work,  I may not have the room for them.  

73 Mark K3MSB

 

On Oct 17, 2016 9:35 AM, "Lloyd - N9LB" <lloydb...@charter.net 
<mailto:lloydb...@charter.net> > wrote:

I have been asked how I arrived at the 290 foot BOG length.

My original 200 foot BOG had a good F/B on 80m but showed almost no
directivity on 160m, so this indicated to me that the BOG needed to be
longer to improve the 160m performance with my particular soil conditions
and environment.

A search on the Internet produced recommendations for 160m BOG lengths of
247 to 290 feet.  Knowing that I could always shorten the wire, I went with
the longer number as a starting point.  That produced a greatly improved 15
to 20 dB Front-to-Back ratio.

The 290 foot length was not chosen for a good match, but that length just
happened to result in a good match.

Unfortunately, I did not measure the match on my 200 ft BOG before it was
dismantled.

The optimum 160m BOG length in your environment might be much different from
what I found at my QTH.

- - - I think the group would benefit from hearing what others have found to
be their optimum BOG lengths - - -


-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com 
<mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com> ] On Behalf Of Lloyd -
N9LB
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 11:06 PM
To: 'Topband' <topband@contesting.com <mailto:topband@contesting.com> >
Subject: Re: Topband: BOG

My Reversible Bog uses the KD9SV transformer set.  It was originally 200
feet long, just increased to 290 feet and that made a very significant
improvement on 160m front-to-back ratio, but hurt 80m performance.

Conditions here are:
Wire run across a weedy field, as close to ground as possible (weeds
trampled down to allow the wire to be close to ground - mostly 2-4 inches
above the actual ground).  Soil is a few inches of decent dirt, about one to
two feet of clay, about one to two feet of sand, and then bedrock.  Tops of
the five foot ground rods can't be driven completely below the ground's
surface.

WX - a wetter than normal Summer and Fall here in Southern Wisconsin.

My Antenna Analyzer shows a 1.45 : 1 match at 1825 KHz ( 75 ohm system ).

I can send the analyzer plots to anyone that is interested.

73

Lloyd - N9LB

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com 
<mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com> ] On Behalf Of Charles
Moizeau
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 10:20 PM
To: Lloyd - N9LB <lloydb...@charter.net <mailto:lloydb...@charter.net> >; 
Topband <topband@contesting.com <mailto:topband@contesting.com> >
Subject: Re: Topband: BOG

Thanks Lloyd,

But pls tell us your wire height and approximate description of gnd condx
for your otherwise well-described bog.

73,

Charles W2SH

From: Topband <topband-boun...@contesting.com 
<mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com> > on behalf of Lloyd - N9LB
<lloydb...@charter.net <mailto:lloydb...@charter.net> >
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 7:15 PM
To: topband@contesting.com <mailto:topband@contesting.com> 
Subject: Re: Topband: BOG

Hello Tony!

Ground conditions and wire height above ground make a huge difference in
best length.

I found the optimum for my BOG, using WD-1A wire and operating at 1825 KHz,
at my QTH is 290 feet.

73

Lloyd - N9LB

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesti

Re: Topband: BOG - Selecting the Optimum Length

[Mark K3MSB]

Based upon N9LB’s comments,  I just emailed Bruce and told him to hold my
order for a KB-1.

I have just enough room for 200 ft for a BOG.   Extending it to 250, 290
feet etc is NOT an option for me.

From my reading,  I understood that 200 feet was not exact,  but I didn’t
expect it to be 250 to 290 feet.   If I had known that I would not have
even considered a BOG.

With the cable, KB-1 etc (my BOG will be unidirectional to EU only,  not
bidirectional),  I really don’t want to invest close to $200 on an antenna
that will not do any better on RX than my Inverted-L.Saving it for a
Hi-Z 3 may be the better option.

So, with only 200 feet to play with,  is it worth it?

I've no doubt BOGs work,  I may not have the room for them.

73 Mark K3MSB

On Oct 17, 2016 9:35 AM, "Lloyd - N9LB" <lloydb...@charter.net> wrote:

> I have been asked how I arrived at the 290 foot BOG length.
>
> My original 200 foot BOG had a good F/B on 80m but showed almost no
> directivity on 160m, so this indicated to me that the BOG needed to be
> longer to improve the 160m performance with my particular soil conditions
> and environment.
>
> A search on the Internet produced recommendations for 160m BOG lengths of
> 247 to 290 feet.  Knowing that I could always shorten the wire, I went with
> the longer number as a starting point.  That produced a greatly improved 15
> to 20 dB Front-to-Back ratio.
>
> The 290 foot length was not chosen for a good match, but that length just
> happened to result in a good match.
>
> Unfortunately, I did not measure the match on my 200 ft BOG before it was
> dismantled.
>
> The optimum 160m BOG length in your environment might be much different
> from
> what I found at my QTH.
>
> - - - I think the group would benefit from hearing what others have found
> to
> be their optimum BOG lengths - - -
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd -
> N9LB
> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 11:06 PM
> To: 'Topband' <topband@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: Topband: BOG
>
> My Reversible Bog uses the KD9SV transformer set.  It was originally 200
> feet long, just increased to 290 feet and that made a very significant
> improvement on 160m front-to-back ratio, but hurt 80m performance.
>
> Conditions here are:
> Wire run across a weedy field, as close to ground as possible (weeds
> trampled down to allow the wire to be close to ground - mostly 2-4 inches
> above the actual ground).  Soil is a few inches of decent dirt, about one
> to
> two feet of clay, about one to two feet of sand, and then bedrock.  Tops of
> the five foot ground rods can't be driven completely below the ground's
> surface.
>
> WX - a wetter than normal Summer and Fall here in Southern Wisconsin.
>
> My Antenna Analyzer shows a 1.45 : 1 match at 1825 KHz ( 75 ohm system ).
>
> I can send the analyzer plots to anyone that is interested.
>
> 73
>
> Lloyd - N9LB
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Charles
> Moizeau
> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 10:20 PM
> To: Lloyd - N9LB <lloydb...@charter.net>; Topband <topband@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: Topband: BOG
>
> Thanks Lloyd,
>
> But pls tell us your wire height and approximate description of gnd condx
> for your otherwise well-described bog.
>
> 73,
>
> Charles W2SH
> 
> From: Topband <topband-boun...@contesting.com> on behalf of Lloyd - N9LB
> <lloydb...@charter.net>
> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 7:15 PM
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: BOG
>
> Hello Tony!
>
> Ground conditions and wire height above ground make a huge difference in
> best length.
>
> I found the optimum for my BOG, using WD-1A wire and operating at 1825 KHz,
> at my QTH is 290 feet.
>
> 73
>
> Lloyd - N9LB
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of N2TK,
> Tony
> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 5:15 PM
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Topband: BOG
>
> Stretched out 200' of WD-1A along a stone wall. Kept it about 2" above the
> ground and right up against the stones. Fed it with a 300 ohm secondary
> transformer and left the far end unterminated.
>
> Used the MFJ-259 to sweep the bands starting at 1.67 MHZ.  Saw on K1FZ
> notes
> that to find the best single wire length for 160M is to sweep the bands and
> check where the SWR goes to a low value and stays there.
>
> I couldn't find that frequency. I get dips at
>
> 2.58 MHZ 4.3:1
> 3.36 MHZ 1.5:1
> 4.39 MHZ 1.4:1
> 6.033 MHZ 1.3:1
> 9.807 MHZ 

Re: Topband: BOG - Selecting the Optimum Length

[Lloyd - N9LB]

I have been asked how I arrived at the 290 foot BOG length.

My original 200 foot BOG had a good F/B on 80m but showed almost no
directivity on 160m, so this indicated to me that the BOG needed to be
longer to improve the 160m performance with my particular soil conditions
and environment.

A search on the Internet produced recommendations for 160m BOG lengths of
247 to 290 feet.  Knowing that I could always shorten the wire, I went with
the longer number as a starting point.  That produced a greatly improved 15
to 20 dB Front-to-Back ratio.

The 290 foot length was not chosen for a good match, but that length just
happened to result in a good match.  

Unfortunately, I did not measure the match on my 200 ft BOG before it was
dismantled.

The optimum 160m BOG length in your environment might be much different from
what I found at my QTH.  

- - - I think the group would benefit from hearing what others have found to
be their optimum BOG lengths - - -


-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd -
N9LB
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 11:06 PM
To: 'Topband' <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: BOG

My Reversible Bog uses the KD9SV transformer set.  It was originally 200
feet long, just increased to 290 feet and that made a very significant
improvement on 160m front-to-back ratio, but hurt 80m performance.  

Conditions here are:
Wire run across a weedy field, as close to ground as possible (weeds
trampled down to allow the wire to be close to ground - mostly 2-4 inches
above the actual ground).  Soil is a few inches of decent dirt, about one to
two feet of clay, about one to two feet of sand, and then bedrock.  Tops of
the five foot ground rods can't be driven completely below the ground's
surface.

WX - a wetter than normal Summer and Fall here in Southern Wisconsin.

My Antenna Analyzer shows a 1.45 : 1 match at 1825 KHz ( 75 ohm system ).

I can send the analyzer plots to anyone that is interested.

73

Lloyd - N9LB

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Charles
Moizeau
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 10:20 PM
To: Lloyd - N9LB <lloydb...@charter.net>; Topband <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: BOG

Thanks Lloyd,

But pls tell us your wire height and approximate description of gnd condx
for your otherwise well-described bog.

73,

Charles W2SH

From: Topband <topband-boun...@contesting.com> on behalf of Lloyd - N9LB
<lloydb...@charter.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 7:15 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: BOG

Hello Tony!

Ground conditions and wire height above ground make a huge difference in
best length.

I found the optimum for my BOG, using WD-1A wire and operating at 1825 KHz,
at my QTH is 290 feet.

73

Lloyd - N9LB

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of N2TK,
Tony
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 5:15 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: BOG

Stretched out 200' of WD-1A along a stone wall. Kept it about 2" above the
ground and right up against the stones. Fed it with a 300 ohm secondary
transformer and left the far end unterminated.

Used the MFJ-259 to sweep the bands starting at 1.67 MHZ.  Saw on K1FZ notes
that to find the best single wire length for 160M is to sweep the bands and
check where the SWR goes to a low value and stays there.

I couldn't find that frequency. I get dips at

2.58 MHZ 4.3:1
3.36 MHZ 1.5:1
4.39 MHZ 1.4:1
6.033 MHZ 1.3:1
9.807 MHZ 1.2:1

I didn't check any higher in freq. I only care about listening on 160M with
it.
I twisted both wires together at the feedpoint.
Want to check it out first as a single ended BOG to see how it works before
I go to the trouble of making it a two direction BOG.
At one point the BOG is only 35' from my tower.
Is it too high and does it need to be against the ground?

Any feedback appreciated.

N2TK, Tony
_
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Re: Topband: BOG

[Lloyd - N9LB]

My Reversible Bog uses the KD9SV transformer set.  It was originally 200
feet long, just increased to 290 feet and that made a very significant
improvement on 160m front-to-back ratio, but hurt 80m performance.  

Conditions here are:
Wire run across a weedy field, as close to ground as possible (weeds
trampled down to allow the wire to be close to ground - mostly 2-4 inches
above the actual ground).  Soil is a few inches of decent dirt, about one to
two feet of clay, about one to two feet of sand, and then bedrock.  Tops of
the five foot ground rods can't be driven completely below the ground's
surface.

WX - a wetter than normal Summer and Fall here in Southern Wisconsin.

My Antenna Analyzer shows a 1.45 : 1 match at 1825 KHz ( 75 ohm system ).

I can send the analyzer plots to anyone that is interested.

73

Lloyd - N9LB

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Charles
Moizeau
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 10:20 PM
To: Lloyd - N9LB <lloydb...@charter.net>; Topband <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: BOG

Thanks Lloyd,

But pls tell us your wire height and approximate description of gnd condx
for your otherwise well-described bog.

73,

Charles W2SH

From: Topband <topband-boun...@contesting.com> on behalf of Lloyd - N9LB
<lloydb...@charter.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 7:15 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: BOG

Hello Tony!

Ground conditions and wire height above ground make a huge difference in
best length.

I found the optimum for my BOG, using WD-1A wire and operating at 1825 KHz,
at my QTH is 290 feet.

73

Lloyd - N9LB

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of N2TK,
Tony
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 5:15 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: BOG

Stretched out 200' of WD-1A along a stone wall. Kept it about 2" above the
ground and right up against the stones. Fed it with a 300 ohm secondary
transformer and left the far end unterminated.

Used the MFJ-259 to sweep the bands starting at 1.67 MHZ.  Saw on K1FZ notes
that to find the best single wire length for 160M is to sweep the bands and
check where the SWR goes to a low value and stays there.

I couldn't find that frequency. I get dips at

2.58 MHZ 4.3:1
3.36 MHZ 1.5:1
4.39 MHZ 1.4:1
6.033 MHZ 1.3:1
9.807 MHZ 1.2:1

I didn't check any higher in freq. I only care about listening on 160M with
it.
I twisted both wires together at the feedpoint.
Want to check it out first as a single ended BOG to see how it works before
I go to the trouble of making it a two direction BOG.
At one point the BOG is only 35' from my tower.
Is it too high and does it need to be against the ground?

Any feedback appreciated.

N2TK, Tony
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Re: Topband: BOG

[Charles Moizeau]

Thanks Lloyd,


But pls tell us your wire height and approximate description of gnd condx  for 
your otherwise well-described bog.


73,


Charles W2SH



From: Topband <topband-boun...@contesting.com> on behalf of Lloyd - N9LB 
<lloydb...@charter.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 7:15 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: BOG

Hello Tony!

Ground conditions and wire height above ground make a huge difference in
best length.

I found the optimum for my BOG, using WD-1A wire and operating at 1825 KHz,
at my QTH is 290 feet.

73

Lloyd - N9LB

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of N2TK,
Tony
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 5:15 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: BOG

Stretched out 200' of WD-1A along a stone wall. Kept it about 2" above the
ground and right up against the stones. Fed it with a 300 ohm secondary
transformer and left the far end unterminated.

Used the MFJ-259 to sweep the bands starting at 1.67 MHZ.  Saw on K1FZ notes
that to find the best single wire length for 160M is to sweep the bands and
check where the SWR goes to a low value and stays there.

I couldn't find that frequency. I get dips at

2.58 MHZ 4.3:1
3.36 MHZ 1.5:1
4.39 MHZ 1.4:1
6.033 MHZ 1.3:1
9.807 MHZ 1.2:1

I didn't check any higher in freq. I only care about listening on 160M with
it.
I twisted both wires together at the feedpoint.
Want to check it out first as a single ended BOG to see how it works before
I go to the trouble of making it a two direction BOG.
At one point the BOG is only 35' from my tower.
Is it too high and does it need to be against the ground?

Any feedback appreciated.

N2TK, Tony
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Re: Topband: BOG

[Herbert Schoenbohm]

If the far end is left un-terminated the BOG will not work well as I 
have found here. Try a small ground rod of 4 feet and a 250 ohm resistor 
and sweep again.  I predict your results will be much better.



On 10/16/2016 7:15 PM, Lloyd - N9LB wrote:
Boxbe  This message is eligible for 
Automatic Cleanup! (lloydb...@charter.net) Add cleanup rule 
 
| More info 
 




Hello Tony!

Ground conditions and wire height above ground make a huge difference in
best length.

I found the optimum for my BOG, using WD-1A wire and operating at 1825 KHz,
at my QTH is 290 feet.

73

Lloyd - N9LB

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of N2TK,
Tony
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 5:15 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: BOG

Stretched out 200' of WD-1A along a stone wall. Kept it about 2" above the
ground and right up against the stones. Fed it with a 300 ohm secondary
transformer and left the far end unterminated.

Used the MFJ-259 to sweep the bands starting at 1.67 MHZ.  Saw on K1FZ notes
that to find the best single wire length for 160M is to sweep the bands and
check where the SWR goes to a low value and stays there.

I couldn't find that frequency. I get dips at

2.58 MHZ 4.3:1
3.36 MHZ 1.5:1
4.39 MHZ 1.4:1
6.033 MHZ 1.3:1
9.807 MHZ 1.2:1
  
I didn't check any higher in freq. I only care about listening on 160M with

it.
I twisted both wires together at the feedpoint.
Want to check it out first as a single ended BOG to see how it works before
I go to the trouble of making it a two direction BOG.
At one point the BOG is only 35' from my tower.
Is it too high and does it need to be against the ground?

Any feedback appreciated.

N2TK, Tony
_
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_
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Re: Topband: BOG

[Lloyd - N9LB]

Hello Tony!

Ground conditions and wire height above ground make a huge difference in
best length.

I found the optimum for my BOG, using WD-1A wire and operating at 1825 KHz,
at my QTH is 290 feet.

73

Lloyd - N9LB

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of N2TK,
Tony
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 5:15 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: BOG

Stretched out 200' of WD-1A along a stone wall. Kept it about 2" above the
ground and right up against the stones. Fed it with a 300 ohm secondary
transformer and left the far end unterminated.

Used the MFJ-259 to sweep the bands starting at 1.67 MHZ.  Saw on K1FZ notes
that to find the best single wire length for 160M is to sweep the bands and
check where the SWR goes to a low value and stays there.

I couldn't find that frequency. I get dips at

2.58 MHZ 4.3:1
3.36 MHZ 1.5:1
4.39 MHZ 1.4:1
6.033 MHZ 1.3:1
9.807 MHZ 1.2:1
 
I didn't check any higher in freq. I only care about listening on 160M with
it.
I twisted both wires together at the feedpoint. 
Want to check it out first as a single ended BOG to see how it works before
I go to the trouble of making it a two direction BOG.
At one point the BOG is only 35' from my tower.
Is it too high and does it need to be against the ground?

Any feedback appreciated.

N2TK, Tony
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

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Re: Topband: BOG data

[K4SAV]

I meant to sent this post to the group but somehow only sent it to 
K2AV.  So second try.


The system has messed up my data formatting to the point where it is not 
readable.  The data has been reformatted below.  Maybe this will be better.


A little more info on the tests.  The source was a small rig operated 
from a battery.  The feedline length was about 3 feet. There was also a 
transformer included to match the rig output to the impedance of the 
BOG.  SWR was less than 1.3 to 1.  I know the BOG is too long but the 
object of the test is the comparison between measured data and what 
EZNEC predicts.  If there is no model where EZNEC can predict currents 
that are close, then any patterns generated will be wrong.  It also 
becomes painfully obvious that published BOG patterns by others are wrong.


There are no buried wires anywhere near the wires in these tests.

When monkeying with EZNEC parameters to get anything that might be give 
results close to what I measured, I tried all possible ground 
parameters, including those that were absurd and could not possible 
exist.  None produced close results.  I tried all heights, regardless of 
actual height.  None were close.   I tried some wilder stuff too.  I 
even tried my own ground using distributed resistors, capacitors, and 
inductors over a MININEC ground.  I tried to SPICE it but that was 
doomed due to not modeling the mutual inductance between segments. I 
planned on transferring those parameters to EZNEC but that SPICE 
simulation was wrong. In summary, nothing came close to the right answer.


I have not tried the plane wave analysis, but I will.  Thanks for the 
suggestion.


EZNEC models of the BOG included radials for terminations, two at each 
end, at right angles to the BOG.  Radial length was adjusted such that 
they were resonant exactly on the frequency being plotted.  Their length 
varied between bands and varied for different heights.  Incidentally, 
non-resonant radials of the right length can improve the front to back, 
according to the simulations.  This is where the idea of a resistive 
plus reactive termination came from. Simulation shows that for a long 
BOG the front to back can be improved significantly, but I suspect that 
is just wishful thinking since the simulations are in error.


The dipole-on-the-ground to determine the velocity factor was 118.25 ft 
long, insulated #16 PVC jacket 0.019 inches thick, and resonated at 2.25 
MHz.  Just by varying the ground parameters in EZNEC I was unable to 
predict this.  By setting the wire height to 0.2 inches and average 
ground EZNEC came close.  When using that height for the BOG, results 
were not close.  I also did a test for 80 meters. Duplicating that 
result required placing the wire height to 0.25 inches.  Wire actual 
height was 1.5 to 2 inches.


Jerry, K4SAV


DATA:

Current measurements on a 364 ft BOG. Height above ground estimated to 
be 1.5 to 2 inches, lying on the top of short grass mowed just before 
the test, dry high ground, red Alabama clay.


Load data taken at the end of the BOG:

Freq MHz ___ Source ma __ Load ma ___ EZNEC  predicts ma
1.84 120__25_99
3.52 150  _5 _67
7.01 150  <1   22
10.11 ___130  <1 _9.9


Measured at the 212.25 ft (58.3%) point from the source:

Freq MHz ___ Source ma  __58.3%, ma __ EZNEC predicts ma
1.84__120 70__102
3.52 _150 73 __71
7.01 _150 35 __44
10.11 130 15 __2.7

I also measured the velocity factor of a wire in the same place where 
the BOG was.  On 2.25 MHz it was 0.67.  At a second place the 
measurement was close to the same.

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Re: Topband: BOG data

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

It is tricky nasty to model a BOG, but can be done. One of the exceptional
problems is to get a ground characteristic for EZNEC that causes the model
to mimic reality. Sometimes people just can't come up with a set that
works.

If you are measuring current, then you are transmitting into it. Your model
will have to include the feedline shield with EZNEC loads to model the
isolation of the feedline from the feedpoint as actually occuring at the
feedpoint. An easier way to see the current behavior of an "ideal" BOG and
the currents in effect on RX, then the BOG should be modeled without a
source on it. Place a one foot long vertical antenna at a particular
distance and height a mile away to set the azimuth and elevation of the
incoming signal, and set your power to a megawatt. This is a point source
on 160. Then note the modeled currents in the BOG wire for different
incoming angles/directions and the power across a 50 ohm resistor at the
feed point. That a megawatt on a one foot wire in reality would melt the
wire is beside the point.

You can also see if any value of termination gives you a smoothly
decreasing current on a signal from the back side. What you are looking for
is the minimum voltage at the 50 ohm feedpoint termination.  On a signal
from the front side, you want the maximum voltage to appear at the 50 ohm
feedpoint termination.

EZNEC Pro will do this "plane wave" analysis directly.

As to what to use for ground, lay a 151 foot dipole on ground at your
placement point and obtain the resonance and R reading at resonance. Monkey
with the ground constants to get a modeled 151 foot dipole on ground to get
the same resonance and R reading. It sounds like you already may have done
something like this.

You may not be able to do that, because for a BOG as with any 160 antenna,
nearby conductors, including buried conductors like water and gas pipes,
can "pull" actual results way off the monolithic, uniform ground in NEC
based programs.

Incidentally, a 364 foot BOG on 160 is in the magnitude of twice as long as
needed for ideal results. Some times wire your length has been reported
with a reversed pattern. 364 divided by .67 gives an electrical length of
543 feet or two halfwaves. The problem is the slow propagation on the wire
vs. full speed of light incoming.

73, Guy K2AV



On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 6:25 PM, K4SAV  wrote:

> Before you put a lot of faith in modeling a BOG, you should look at the
> data below.  I measured the current along a 364 ft BOG and compared it to
> what NEC predicts.  On 160, NEC is in error by 400% in some cases.  NEC is
> in error on 80 by 1340% in some cases.  Since NEC uses the current in the
> segments to predict the pattern, the predicted pattern doesn't have a
> chance of being correct.
>
> My meter doesn't make accurate measurements below 5 ma.  I would have
> repeated some of the tests to increase the drive current but it was
> apparent that an accurate measurement was not necessary for comparison to
> NEC since the error is huge.
>
> My current meter adds a series resistance of about 1.5 ohms when it is
> clamped on, so that should not contribute any error in this system.
>
> EZNEC model of this 364 ft BOG showed an RDF of 10.6 on 160 and I even
> developed a method (with simulation) of increasing the front to back by 20
> to 25 dB.  Unfortunately, in light of the measurements, I think this falls
> into the kidding yourself category.  Incidentally, that 20 to 25 dB
> increase in front to back only improves the RDF by 0.11.  The BOG actually
> worked pretty good on 160 when comparing it to another receiving antenna
> that has an RDF of 11.15.  The reference antenna has much better front to
> back and side rejection.  The BOG had just a little less performance on
> average but sometime it was equal.
>
> I am now struggling with obtaining a method of predicting BOG
> performance.  I have been unable to play with any of the parameters in
> EZNEC to get it to predict my measurements.  Since NEC can't do it, the
> only thing left is experimental and that is not going to give the pattern.
> All you can get easily is front to back at very low angles, which is likely
> to be very misleading, and certainly not an indication of better RDF or
> lower noise (reference the particular example above of a 0.11 increase in
> RDF for an improvement in front to back of 20-25 dB).  Comparison to a
> reference antenna seems to be the best, but sinking and pulling ground rods
> is not fun, and obtaining experimental data is a slow process.
>
> K2AV recently posted a couple of interesting topics on BOGs, one on Apr 15
> and another one today.
>
> Jerry, K4SAV
>
>
> DATA:
>
> Current measurements on a 364 ft BOG. Height above ground estimated to be
> 1.5 to 2 inches, lying on the top of short grass mowed just before the
> test, dry high ground, red Alabama clay.
>
> Load data taken at the end of the BOG:
>
> Freq MHz Source ma Load ma EZNEC  predicts ma
> 

Re: Topband: BOG near salt water

[JC]

"When you say "NOT work", you probably need to specifically list the diminished 
performance attribute due to more conductive media underneath."



The issue with horizontal wire and the ground is the fact that the reflected 
signal from the ground is 180 degree out of phase, (-1 in the formula) and with 
a good ground conductivity the current in the wire and the current in the 
ground will deeply cancel each  other. That’s why any horizontal wire very near 
the ground only receives along the wire and vertical polarized.

73's
JC

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Re: Topband: BOG near salt water

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Not arguing at all with your "why" that goes with diminished performance.
Just pointing out that it's not an on-off switch but a diminishment to a
BOG that can still be useful with amplification and attention to issues
that hound all BOGs.

Regards,
Guy K2AV

On Friday, January 8, 2016, JC  wrote:

> "When you say "NOT work", you probably need to specifically list the
> diminished performance attribute due to more conductive media underneath."
>
>
>
> The issue with horizontal wire and the ground is the fact that the
> reflected signal from the ground is 180 degree out of phase, (-1 in the
> formula) and with a good ground conductivity the current in the wire and
> the current in the ground will deeply cancel each  other. That’s why any
> horizontal wire very near the ground only receives along the wire and
> vertical polarized.
>
> 73's
> JC
>
>

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Re: Topband: BOG near salt water

[Milt]

Val,

Beverages of any type will NOT work over salt water or earth where the 
chemical makeup of the earth produces a highly conductive material.


Here is the way I understand the theory.

The Beverage works on the principle of a two wire transmission line where 
one side of the transmission line is your Beverage wire and the other side 
is the earth.


The wire half has RF voltage induced in it by 'tilting' of the wave due to 
the difference in the velocity factor of the 2 halves of the 'transmission 
line'.  The signal travels faster in the wire than it does in the earth, 
producing the miniscule amount of RF voltage in the wire, which is impedance 
matched to your coaxial cable.


If the medium which comprises the other half of your Beverage system has a 
VF at or nearly so the same as your wire half, no RF voltage is produces and 
you will NOT have any signal.


Congratulations on your success.  It means the earth comprising the other 
half of your BOG is not salt saturated.  You are getting signal tilt 
producing an RF voltage, and therefore signals.


If you were to move the BOG over the salt water and have your grounds at 
each end connected to the salt you will find that there will be for all 
intents and purposes ZERO signal produced.  It is then truly just a balanced 
open wire feed line and nothing else.


Keep up the good work.  Always try and prove things for your self.  That is 
what it is all about.


73, and good luck, de Milt, N5IA


-Original Message- 
From: Hugh Valentine

Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 9:15 PM
To: TopBand
Subject: Topband: BOG near salt water

Some say a BOG is not effective at/over salt water.

For grins I installed a 200’ BOG to Europe.  4:1 Binocular XFMR,  #18 single 
wire, (92 Ohm Termination= 1.1:1 SWR on RG6 cable) 4’ Ground Rods, No 
radials.

Works about same as K9AY.  Maybe 8DB down in sig strength.
Installed approximately from 1’ to a maximum of 30’ from salt water.

I would say it works and can be installed rapidly.

Val
N4RJ
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Re: Topband: BOG antenna research at HC1PF

[Art Snapper]

Luis's BOG page is very informative.

Last night's contest was the first time I have used directional receiving
antennas (in this case BOGs) during a contest on TB.

Art NK8X
ᐧ

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 11:47 AM, K1FZ-Bruce  wrote:

>
> Luis, IV3PRK/HC1PF  has been instrumental in BOG antenna research. He has
> brought together information from some of the top BOG antenna
> users/researchers, and an antenna plotting expert. He has constructed BOG
> antennas that helped over come noise at HC1PF his 2nd QTH near the equator.
>
> http://www.iv3prk.it/new-page.htm
>
>
> 73
> Bruce-K1FZ
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Re: Topband: BOG question

[Tom W8JI]

Frank et. al,
The ground does indeed affect the Vf however different types of 
wires/cables are affected differently and the only way to know for sure is

to measure the Vf yourself. I use old telephone cable (


None of it, including the cable type, affects the spacing of elements. That 
was Frank's point, and that was all he ever said.


Somehow what Frank said was misconstrued into meaning something about the 
transmission line mode of waves in the antenna itself, which no one ever 
disagreed about. We all know, or should know, the Vp through the length of 
the antenna is affected by ground and dielectrics.


Frank's statement was that the external wave was not affected by the Vf in 
the antenna, so the required spacing does not change between a BOG and any 
other antenna. 


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Re: Topband: BOG question

[Mike Waters]

Exactly right, Tom.

Jim, if you go back and look at all the posts in this thread from the
beginning --which I should have done but didn't-- you'll see.

I was surprised that Frank and Tom 'made such an incorrect statement' (so I
wrongly assumed, that is) before we 'disagreed'. ;-)

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 12:32 PM, Tom W8JI  wrote:

> None of it, including the cable type, affects the spacing of elements.
> That was Frank's point, and that was all he ever said.
>
> Somehow what Frank said was misconstrued into meaning something about the
> transmission line mode of waves in the antenna itself, which no one ever
> disagreed about. We all know, or should know, the Vp through the length of
> the antenna is affected by ground and dielectrics.
>
> Frank's statement was that the external wave was not affected by the Vf in
> the antenna, so the required spacing does not change between a BOG and any
> other antenna.
>
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Re: Topband: BOG question

[Jim]

Frank et. al, 
The ground does indeed affect the Vf however different types of wires/cables 
are affected differently and the only way to know for sure is 
to measure the Vf yourself. I use old telephone cable ( C Rural wire) for my 
BOG and it is distinctly different from the normal window line used on my 
elevated Beverage or someone else coaxial BOG.. So you gotta get out of the 
shack and do the leg (and sometimes brain) power to find the correct info. 

Jim WA3MEJ 

P.S. Frank to you have a soft copy of "Propagation Of High Frequency Currents 
In Ground Return Circuits" (1934) that you could part with 

Message: 1 
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 21:06:48 + 
From: Chuck Hutton < charle...@msn.com > 
To: " donov...@starpower.net " < donov...@starpower.net >, 160 
< topband@contesting.com > 
Subject: Re: Topband: BOG question 
Message-ID: < blu184-w5b98dc5b4bac3b78fe70bfc...@phx.gbl > 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 

Frank: 
I believe there is a large influence of height above ground on VF. 
>From a theoretical basis, this has been "known" since Wise's classic paper 
>"Propagation Of High Frequency Currents In Ground Return Circuits" (1934). 
This was experimentally verified in the Litva and Rook report from the CRC 
(Canada), and compared with theoretical results. 
These guys didn't extend their calculations to right-on-the-ground antennas. 
The attached (if it gets through the server) is from a spreadsheet of mine 
based on the Wise equations. The influence of height on VF is very very 
pronounced. 
Chuck 


> Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 11:23:16 -0400 
> From: donov...@starpower.net 
> To: topband@contesting.com 
> Subject: Re: Topband: BOG question 
> 
> Hi Art, 
 
> Signals arriving at the BOGs are not travelling in the ground, therefore 
> their velocity of propagation (Vp) is unaffected by the ground. 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
> 



Long Live Seal Team VI 

http://www.qsl.net/wa3mej/index.htm 
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Re: Topband: BOG question

[donovanf]

Hi Art, 


Signals arriving at the BOGs are not travelling in the ground, therefore 
their velocity of propagation (Vp) is unaffected by the ground. 


B roadside spacing should be 350 feet. 


Echelon spacing should be 70 to 130 feet, using W8JI crossfire- 
echelon phasing. 140 foot spacing significantly increases the signal level 
but produces slightly degraded RDF compared to 70 foot spacing. 


http://www.w8ji.com/echelon-log_beverages.htm 


The Vp of each BOG may be somewhat different, which may cause 
some uncertainty when attempting to phase them. There is negligible 
difference in the Vp of a pair of conventional Beverage antennas. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "Art Snapper"  
To: "160"  
Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2015 1:28:15 PM 
Subject: Topband: BOG question 

I was thinking about phased BOGs. 

Would the horizontal spacing and/or stagger between them, be reduced due to 
the Vp change from ground proximity? 


Art NK8X 
ᐧ 
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Re: Topband: BOG question

[Chuck Hutton]

Frank:
I believe there is a large influence of height above ground on VF. 
>From a theoretical basis, this has been "known" since Wise's classic paper 
>"Propagation Of High Frequency Currents In Ground Return Circuits" (1934).
This was experimentally verified in the Litva and Rook report from the CRC 
(Canada), and compared with theoretical results.
These guys didn't extend their calculations to right-on-the-ground antennas. 
The attached (if it gets through the server) is from a spreadsheet of mine 
based on the Wise equations. The influence of height on VF is very very 
pronounced.
Chuck


> Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 11:23:16 -0400
> From: donov...@starpower.net
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: BOG question
> 
> Hi Art, 

> Signals arriving at the BOGs are not travelling in the ground, therefore 
> their velocity of propagation (Vp) is unaffected by the ground. 
>
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
> 

  
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Re: Topband: BOG question

[Tom W8JI]

I believe there is a large influence of height above ground on VF.
From a theoretical basis, this has been "known" since Wise's classic paper 
"Propagation Of High Frequency Currents In Ground Return Circuits" (1934).
This was experimentally verified in the Litva and Rook report from the CRC 
(Canada), and compared with theoretical results.
These guys didn't extend their calculations to right-on-the-ground 
antennas. The attached (if it gets through the server) is from a 
spreadsheet of mine based on the Wise equations. The influence of height 
on VF is very very pronounced.

Chuck


Frank is absolutely correct in what he said.

The velocity factor decrease in the Beverage has nothing to do with the 
arriving wave velocity that affects the required phasing spacing.  The wire 
looks longer because the earth slows the wave ***in the wire's transmission 
line mode***. The required spacing and stagger is set by the wave, not the 
wire. It is the same in a BOG, a normal Beverage, or in a vertical.


The broadside spacing, to increase directivity a useful amount, has to be up 
around 1/2 wave or more. The end-fire or echelon spacing has to be the same 
as a normal Beverage, or vertical, to have useful directivity increase.


The only thing the earth does is slow the velocity in the transmission line 
formed by the wire and earth image. The antenna cannot be a long as a 
regular Beverage because of the slowed propagation in that "transmission 
line". It is little different than loading the wire with any lossy 
dielectric.


While the antenna is limited to less length because of velocity factor in 
the wire's transmission line mode, the fact it is a BOG has no bearing on 
the wave velocity, or the required spacing or stagger.


73 Tom 


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Re: Topband: BOG question

[Chuck Hutton]

I think this is a wording issue. We all understand the difference between VF in 
the transmission line and VF in free space.
What caused difficulty was the term "arriving at". I took this to mean "at the 
antenna" not free space, as there's no need to mention the antenna if the 
desired meaning was "free space".
Chuck

> From: w...@w8ji.com
> To: charle...@msn.com; donov...@starpower.net; topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: BOG question
> Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 18:57:09 -0400
> 
> > I believe there is a large influence of height above ground on VF.
> > From a theoretical basis, this has been "known" since Wise's classic paper 
> > "Propagation Of High Frequency Currents In Ground Return Circuits" (1934).
> > This was experimentally verified in the Litva and Rook report from the CRC 
> > (Canada), and compared with theoretical results.
> > These guys didn't extend their calculations to right-on-the-ground 
> > antennas. The attached (if it gets through the server) is from a 
> > spreadsheet of mine based on the Wise equations. The influence of height 
> > on VF is very very pronounced.
> > Chuck
> 
> Frank is absolutely correct in what he said.
> 
> The velocity factor decrease in the Beverage has nothing to do with the 
> arriving wave velocity that affects the required phasing spacing.  The wire 
> looks longer because the earth slows the wave ***in the wire's transmission 
> line mode***. The required spacing and stagger is set by the wave, not the 
> wire. It is the same in a BOG, a normal Beverage, or in a vertical.
> 
> The broadside spacing, to increase directivity a useful amount, has to be up 
> around 1/2 wave or more. The end-fire or echelon spacing has to be the same 
> as a normal Beverage, or vertical, to have useful directivity increase.
> 
> The only thing the earth does is slow the velocity in the transmission line 
> formed by the wire and earth image. The antenna cannot be a long as a 
> regular Beverage because of the slowed propagation in that "transmission 
> line". It is little different than loading the wire with any lossy 
> dielectric.
> 
> While the antenna is limited to less length because of velocity factor in 
> the wire's transmission line mode, the fact it is a BOG has no bearing on 
> the wave velocity, or the required spacing or stagger.
> 
> 73 Tom 
> 
  
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Re: Topband: BOG question

[donovanf]

Hi Chuck, 


Of course, W8JI's reply is right on the mark. The Vf of the BOG affects 
only signals transiting the BOG wire in transmission line mode, it has 
no affect of the placement of BOG antennas in a phased array. 


Ideally the broadside spacing should be about 350 feet. End fire 
spacing should be 70-130 feet with larger end fire spacings producing 
significantly stronger signal levels. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "Chuck Hutton" <charle...@msn.com> 
To: donov...@starpower.net, "160" <topband@contesting.com> 
Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2015 9:06:48 PM 
Subject: RE: Topband: BOG question 


Frank: 


I believe there is a large influence of height above ground on VF. 


>From a theoretical basis, this has been "known" since Wise's classic paper 
>"Propagation Of High Frequency Currents In Ground Return Circuits" (1934). 


This was experimentally verified in the Litva and Rook report from the CRC 
(Canada), and compared with theoretical results. 


These guys didn't extend their calculations to right-on-the-ground antennas. 
The attached (if it gets through the server) is from a spreadsheet of mine 
based on the Wise equations. The influence of height on VF is very very 
pronounced. 


Chuck 





> Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 11:23:16 -0400 
> From: donov...@starpower.net 
> To: topband@contesting.com 
> Subject: Re: Topband: BOG question 
> 
> Hi Art, 
 
> Signals arriving at the BOGs are not travelling in the ground, therefore 
> their velocity of propagation (Vp) is unaffected by the ground. 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
> 


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Re: Topband: BOG question

[Mike Waters]

I fully agree, Chuck. I forget the actual length, but IIRC, 200' is a
commonly used length on 160.
400' or 500' of wire on the earth is much too long to work right on most
types of ground.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 4:06 PM, Chuck Hutton  wrote:

> Frank:
> I believe there is a large influence of height above ground on VF. ... The
> influence of height on VF is very very pronounced.
>
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Re: Topband: BOG question

[Tom W8JI]

I think this is a wording issue. We all understand the difference between 
VF in the transmission line and VF in free space.
What caused difficulty was the term "arriving at". I took this to mean "at 
the antenna" not free space, as there's no need to mention the antenna if 
the desired meaning was "free space".

Chuck


Frank said:

"Signals arriving at the BOGs are not travelling in the ground, therefore
their velocity of propagation (Vp) is unaffected by the ground. "

That seems OK to me. I can't think of a better way to say it, but maybe 
someone else can.


The Beverage antenna itself, just like any antenna, is also a transmission 
line. The only significant change in velocity factor by laying the antenna 
on ground is in transmission line mode characteristics of the BOG. The 
signal arriving at the antenna and in space all around the antenna is not 
any more affected by the ground than it would be with any other antenna.


The same effect could be simulated by a series inductance distributed along 
the antenna, or a dielectric. It isn't the signal around the antenna or 
arriving at the antenna that is changing, it is the transmission line mode 
of the antenna as the signal passes along through the wire.


73 Tom 


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Re: Topband: BOG question

[Gary K9GS]

Does the length of a BOG scale linearly?  In other words, 100' for 80M?

On 10/1/2015 5:09 PM, Mike Waters wrote:

I fully agree, Chuck. I forget the actual length, but IIRC, 200' is a
commonly used length on 160.
400' or 500' of wire on the earth is much too long to work right on most
types of ground.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 4:06 PM, Chuck Hutton  wrote:


Frank:
I believe there is a large influence of height above ground on VF. ... The
influence of height on VF is very very pronounced.


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--
73,

Gary K9GS

Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org
Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com
CW Ops #1032   http://www.cwops.org



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Re: Topband: BOG antenna notes update

[Chuck Hutton]

Guy:
This I do not understand. As a Beverage is a travelling wave antenna, it has no 
resonance.
Chuck
 Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 21:51:16 -0400
 From: k2av@gmail.com
 To: k...@myfairpoint.net
 CC: topband@contesting.com; l...@iv3prk.it
 Subject: Topband:  BOG antenna notes update
 
CLIP
 
 It would be exceedingly interesting to get a BOG adjusted for front to back
 by minimizing QRN, then temporarily converted to a DOG and measured for the
 primary resonant frequency.
 
 I suspect that they will exhibit a narrow bell curve about a frequency
 around 1100 to 1200 kHz in the broadcast band. This would confirm ground
 composition based highly variable velocity factor in wires in/on/just above
 earth.
 

 73, Guy K2AV

  
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Re: Topband: BOG antennas again

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

One way to move up the sweet spot on a BOG that has been mushed down is
to go to the center of the BOG wire and carefully pull the wire up from its
mushed down position a few feet at a time. Pull up just a few feet at a
time and recheck the sweet spot each time until you move it back on
frequency. Increasing distance from ground increases velocity factor and
shifts performance spots up in frequency. Don't try to pull up a bunch at a
time, you'll overshoot the target frequency.

My loops-on-ground have to be pulled out from under the wet rotting leaves
annually.

73, Guy K2AV

On Monday, May 18, 2015, K1FZ-Bruce k...@myfairpoint.net wrote:


 I receive questions from those who try for direct comparisons to a
 Beverage antenna. There are a few that have put the time in to find how the
 BOG antenna works. K2AV, Guy also has taken time to get the facts.
 Because of the closeness to the earth, the BOG velocity factor is often
 below .5   This can result in  overall lengths of  ~ 200 feet.

 My latest BOG is a two wire, two direction  with 200 feet of wire. the
 best, (excellent), F/B  when first installed was at low end of 160 meters.

 Now in the 2015 springtime, after a tough winter, the best front to back
 is in the upper Broadcast Band. There is one frequencies where  I can get
 two radio stations, out in the clear, just by switching to the opposite
 direction.

 The reason my BOG frequency went down in frequency is the large amount of
 vegetation  packed down by the near record amount of snow, has lowered the
 velocity factor.
 The only question is now,   do I shorten the BOG  wire, or just pull up
 200 feet up out of the vegetation ?

 73,
 Bruce-K1FZ
 www.qsl.net/k1fz/bogantennanotes/index.html

 Also check outwww.contesting.com/_topband
 search BOG antennas, K2AV, and K1FZ







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Re: Topband: BOG antennas again

[Goldtr8 (KD8NNU)]

What is a Loop On the Ground?  Or maybe what is required to make one and 
what is its advantage or disadvantages?



~73
Don
KD8NNU
2014 3905CC Top Gun :-)
-.- -.. ---.. -. -. ..-
-Original Message- 
From: Guy Olinger K2AV

Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 4:10 PM
To: k...@myfairpoint.net
Cc: Topband
Subject: Re: Topband: BOG antennas again

One way to move up the sweet spot on a BOG that has been mushed down is
to go to the center of the BOG wire and carefully pull the wire up from its
mushed down position a few feet at a time. Pull up just a few feet at a
time and recheck the sweet spot each time until you move it back on
frequency. Increasing distance from ground increases velocity factor and
shifts performance spots up in frequency. Don't try to pull up a bunch at a
time, you'll overshoot the target frequency.

My loops-on-ground have to be pulled out from under the wet rotting leaves
annually.

73, Guy K2AV

On Monday, May 18, 2015, K1FZ-Bruce k...@myfairpoint.net wrote:



I receive questions from those who try for direct comparisons to a
Beverage antenna. There are a few that have put the time in to find how 
the

BOG antenna works. K2AV, Guy also has taken time to get the facts.
Because of the closeness to the earth, the BOG velocity factor is often
below .5   This can result in  overall lengths of  ~ 200 feet.

My latest BOG is a two wire, two direction  with 200 feet of wire. the
best, (excellent), F/B  when first installed was at low end of 160 meters.

Now in the 2015 springtime, after a tough winter, the best front to back
is in the upper Broadcast Band. There is one frequencies where  I can get
two radio stations, out in the clear, just by switching to the opposite
direction.

The reason my BOG frequency went down in frequency is the large amount of
vegetation  packed down by the near record amount of snow, has lowered the
velocity factor.
The only question is now,   do I shorten the BOG  wire, or just pull up
200 feet up out of the vegetation ?

73,
Bruce-K1FZ
www.qsl.net/k1fz/bogantennanotes/index.html

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