Re: [tor-bugs] #16824 [Core Tor/Tor]: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as clients

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#16824: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as
clients
-+-
 Reporter:  starlight|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  defect   | Status:
 |  needs_revision
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.5.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:  Tor:
 |  0.2.6.10
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  mike-can, tor-client, tor-relay, |  Actual Points:
  tor-log, sidechannel, easy, 035-triaged-   |
  in-20180711|
Parent ID:   | Points:  1
 Reviewer:  mikeperry|Sponsor:
-+-

Comment (by arma):

 Replying to [comment:53 mikeperry]:
 > Wait don't we already do this? #12908
 >
 > Why is that warn not being emitted?

 That ticket is about relay + onion service, not relay + client.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #16824 [Core Tor/Tor]: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as clients

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#16824: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as
clients
-+-
 Reporter:  starlight|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  defect   | Status:
 |  needs_revision
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.5.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:  Tor:
 |  0.2.6.10
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  mike-can, tor-client, tor-relay, |  Actual Points:
  tor-log, sidechannel, easy, 035-triaged-   |
  in-20180711|
Parent ID:   | Points:  1
 Reviewer:  mikeperry|Sponsor:
-+-

Comment (by mikeperry):

 Wait don't we already do this?
 https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/12908

 Why is that warn not being emitted?

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Re: [tor-bugs] #16824 [Core Tor/Tor]: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as clients

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#16824: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as
clients
-+-
 Reporter:  starlight|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  defect   | Status:
 |  needs_revision
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.5.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:  Tor:
 |  0.2.6.10
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  mike-can, tor-client, tor-relay, |  Actual Points:
  tor-log, sidechannel, easy, 035-triaged-   |
  in-20180711|
Parent ID:   | Points:  1
 Reviewer:  mikeperry|Sponsor:
-+-
Changes (by dmr):

 * cc: dmr (added)
 * keywords:
 mike-can, tor-client, tor-relay, sidechannel, logging, easy, 035
 -triaged-in-20180711
 =>
 mike-can, tor-client, tor-relay, tor-log, sidechannel, easy, 035
 -triaged-in-20180711


Comment:

 `tor-log` is a relatively new keyword; using instead of `logging`.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #16824 [Core Tor/Tor]: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as clients

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#16824: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as
clients
-+-
 Reporter:  starlight|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  defect   | Status:
 |  needs_revision
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.5.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:  Tor:
 |  0.2.6.10
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  mike-can, tor-client tor-relay   |  Actual Points:
  sidechannel logging easy   |
Parent ID:   | Points:  1
 Reviewer:  mikeperry|Sponsor:
-+-

Comment (by n-critser):

 mikeperry,
 What do you think the best way to come to a consensus on this would be?
 Seems like we have 2 options available for deciding if a user is both a
 relay and a client:
 1. configuration
 2. execution of code
 If using only the SOCKSPORT catches too many false positives then, I could
 check some of the other existing values to ensure that the user is
 definitely configured to be both.
 Otherwise, I would need to find some other solid indicator functions for
 both and base the warning on those.
 Which do you prefer?

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Re: [tor-bugs] #16824 [Core Tor/Tor]: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as clients

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#16824: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as
clients
-+-
 Reporter:  starlight|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  defect   | Status:
 |  needs_revision
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.5.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:  Tor:
 |  0.2.6.10
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  mike-can, tor-client tor-relay   |  Actual Points:
  sidechannel logging easy   |
Parent ID:   | Points:  1
 Reviewer:  mikeperry|Sponsor:
-+-

Comment (by mikeperry):

 Additional point: people who set up a hidden service on their relay's Tor
 daemon can set their SocksPort to 0 and yet still succumb to the side
 channel issues of #16585. So we definitely can't even base this on
 SocksPort usage.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #16824 [Core Tor/Tor]: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as clients

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#16824: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as
clients
-+-
 Reporter:  starlight|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  defect   | Status:
 |  needs_revision
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.5.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:  Tor:
 |  0.2.6.10
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  mike-can, tor-client tor-relay   |  Actual Points:
  sidechannel logging easy   |
Parent ID:   | Points:  1
 Reviewer:  mikeperry|Sponsor:
-+-
Changes (by mikeperry):

 * status:  needs_review => needs_revision


Comment:

 Initial thoughts: I don't like issuing a warning about merely having the
 SocksPort set. It is set by default. I also don't think telling relay
 operators to set it to 0 solves any problems here. In fact, all it does is
 make those people who deliberately set it more obvious.

 I don't really care about the case where the relay stalls briefly merely
 because it happens to build some testing/predicted circuits for a little
 while. In the grand scheme of things that cause Tor's performance to be
 poor, this side channel by itself is very very low on the list (though it
 is a result of our single-threaded architecture, which *is* a huge
 performance problem).

 However, I do care about the case where people are actively using their
 relay as a client. This indicates that they are trying to get some benefit
 from having relay traffic mixed with client traffic, and in the process,
 they are making it clear to external observers that their relay is doing
 client things (due to stalls of all traffic during client circuit
 construction from #16585).

 I still think that what those people actually want to do is use their Tor
 relay as a local bridge, and pin a guard node after it. Unfortunately,
 having a guard after a bridge is not something we support yet for general
 use (iirc, isis was working on a bridgeguards patch to prevent bridge
 enumeration by a censor, but I don't know if that got finished). We can
 have a guard/guards after this bridge for hidden services via the
 HSLayer2Nodes -- in that cause your layer2 guards become like entry
 guards, and your layer3 guards are functionally layer2 guards. But then,
 you would be a client that looks like they are using layer2 vanguards but
 not layer3 vanguars, which may be odd or rare. I have to think more about
 this to decide if that actually matters/is detectable. And then, even in
 this case, it is only something that relay operators who are running
 hidden services can do.

 Anyway as-is this is needs revision. We should discuss what we actually
 think people who want do this should be doing, and why, rather than just
 yelling at everybody who uses the default SocksPort in their relay.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #16824 [Core Tor/Tor]: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as clients

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#16824: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as
clients
-+-
 Reporter:  starlight|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  defect   | Status:
 |  needs_review
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.5.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:  Tor:
 |  0.2.6.10
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  mike-can, tor-client tor-relay   |  Actual Points:
  sidechannel logging easy   |
Parent ID:   | Points:  1
 Reviewer:  mikeperry|Sponsor:
-+-
Changes (by asn):

 * reviewer:   => mikeperry


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Re: [tor-bugs] #16824 [Core Tor/Tor]: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as clients

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#16824: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as
clients
-+-
 Reporter:  starlight|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  defect   | Status:
 |  needs_review
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.5.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:  Tor:
 |  0.2.6.10
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  mike-can, tor-client tor-relay   |  Actual Points:
  sidechannel logging easy   |
Parent ID:   | Points:  1
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+-

Comment (by starlight):

 Possibly logic from #26062 can be used to decide when to issue a warning.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #16824 [Core Tor/Tor]: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as clients

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#16824: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as
clients
-+-
 Reporter:  starlight|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  defect   | Status:
 |  needs_review
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.5.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:  Tor:
 |  0.2.6.10
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  mike-can, tor-client tor-relay   |  Actual Points:
  sidechannel logging easy   |
Parent ID:   | Points:  1
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+-

Comment (by starlight):

 As long as the message includes the (Bug #16585) reference I'm ok with it.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #16824 [Core Tor/Tor]: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as clients

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#16824: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as
clients
-+-
 Reporter:  starlight|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  defect   | Status:
 |  needs_review
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.5.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:  Tor:
 |  0.2.6.10
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  mike-can, tor-client tor-relay   |  Actual Points:
  sidechannel logging easy   |
Parent ID:   | Points:  1
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+-

Comment (by n-critser):

 Arma,Starlight,
 Unless we have specific examples of traffic analysis in this case, which
 it seems like we do not. Wouldn't it be better here to warn the user that
 running both Client and Relay mode simultaneously can result in starvation
 of the Relay.  And then focus on fixing the starvation problem.

 Since this issue has been around for over 3 years a warning message could
 serve to both mitigate further users from starving their Relays, while
 also being a constant reminder to ourselves and the community at large
 that we need to fix this issue.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #16824 [Core Tor/Tor]: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as clients

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#16824: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as
clients
-+-
 Reporter:  starlight|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  defect   | Status:
 |  needs_review
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.5.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:  Tor:
 |  0.2.6.10
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  mike-can, tor-client tor-relay   |  Actual Points:
  sidechannel logging easy   |
Parent ID:   | Points:  1
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+-

Comment (by starlight):

 Replying to [comment:42 starlight]:
 > Seemed to me a warning would arrive once client activity commenced on a
 traffic forwarding relay.  Had not considered how it would be implemented,
 whether SocksPort!=0 and ORPort!=NULL would trigger it.  Perhaps the
 message should emit on the first socks connection when ORPort is
 configured?  Or perhaps SockPort=0 should default when ORPort is set and
 the message arrive when both are asserted?
 >
 > To quote my earlier self:
 >
 > > 2) some consider it a reasonable idea to configure a client
 > > and relay in the same daemon instance with the belief
 > > that this would obfuscate local client traffic to some
 > > degree; but with the implementation as it presently
 > > stands such an idea is false and should be denigrated
 >
 > The idea of the warning is to alert users to potential risk, in
 consideration of the time and effort that will likely pass before the risk
 is alleviated.  Already quite some time has passed.
 >
 > Mike Perry suggested a warning as an alternative to my original idea
 that such configurations be discouraged via a new parameter, his reasoning
 in comment:16 above.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #16824 [Core Tor/Tor]: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as clients

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#16824: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as
clients
-+-
 Reporter:  starlight|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  defect   | Status:
 |  needs_review
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.5.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:  Tor:
 |  0.2.6.10
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  mike-can, tor-client tor-relay   |  Actual Points:
  sidechannel logging easy   |
Parent ID:   | Points:  1
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+-

Comment (by starlight):

 Seemed to me a warning would arrive once client activity commenced on a
 traffic forwarding relay.  Had not considered how it would be implemented,
 whether SocksPort!=0 and ORPort!=NULL would trigger it.  Perhaps the
 message should emit on the first socks connection when ORPort is
 configured?  Or perhaps SockPort=0 should default when ORPort is set and
 the message arrive when both are asserted?

 To quote my earlier self:

 > 2) some consider it a reasonable idea to configure a client
 > and relay in the same daemon instance with the belief
 > that this would obfuscate local client traffic to some
 > degree; but with the implementation as it presently
 > stands such an idea is false and should be denigrated

 The idea of the warning is to alert users to potential risk, in
 consideration of the time and effort that will likely pass before the risk
 is alleviated.  Already quite some time has passed.

 Mike Perry suggested a warning as an alternative to my original idea that
 such configurations be discouraged via a new configuration, his reasoning
 in comment:16 above.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #16824 [Core Tor/Tor]: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as clients

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#16824: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as
clients
-+-
 Reporter:  starlight|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  defect   | Status:
 |  needs_review
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.5.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:  Tor:
 |  0.2.6.10
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  mike-can, tor-client tor-relay   |  Actual Points:
  sidechannel logging easy   |
Parent ID:   | Points:  1
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+-

Comment (by arma):

 Two thoughts:

 (A) We're only doing this log message if they *use* the socksport, right?
 Otherwise every relay will get this log message by default, unless they
 change their SocksPort line, even if they *aren't* "attempting to use Tor
 for both relay and client functionality"?

 (B) I'm still unclear on what attack we're talking about here. In the
 earlier bug, #16585, there was some bug where relay cells would get
 unnecessarily starved when the client goes wild trying to build circuits
 that all fail? So in that case maybe it's the relay bandwidth *graphs*
 that give things away? But if there weren't graphs, you might still be
 able to send a constant rate of traffic through the relay and see when it
 slows down? But even if it's not a relay at all, and even if we fixed the
 starvation bug, you might be able to send ping packets toward the
 suspect's IP address, and see a slow-down when there's competing client
 activity?
 https://www.freehaven.net/anonbib/#remote-traffic-pets12
 So it seems weird to me to have a warning message on one particular
 situation -- and a situation that seems more of a bug we can actually fix
 -- but not in all the other situations that can be bad too.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #16824 [Core Tor/Tor]: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as clients

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#16824: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as
clients
-+-
 Reporter:  starlight|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  defect   | Status:
 |  needs_review
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.5.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:  Tor:
 |  0.2.6.10
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  mike-can, tor-client tor-relay   |  Actual Points:
  sidechannel logging easy   |
Parent ID:   | Points:  1
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+-

Comment (by n-critser):

 Warning has be updated to :
 log_warn(LD_CONFIG, "You appear to be attempting to use Tor for both "
  "relay and client functionality at the same time. "
  "Unfortunately, a side channel issue (Bug #16585) means that
 "
  "this fact will be visible in network traffic patterns. "
  "If you do not actually want to run Tor as a client, "
  "you can add SocksPort 0 to your configuration, to turn off "
  "the default client behavior.");

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Re: [tor-bugs] #16824 [Core Tor/Tor]: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as clients

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#16824: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as
clients
-+-
 Reporter:  starlight|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  defect   | Status:
 |  needs_review
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.5.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:  Tor:
 |  0.2.6.10
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  mike-can, tor-client tor-relay   |  Actual Points:
  sidechannel logging easy   |
Parent ID:   | Points:  1
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+-

Comment (by starlight):

 Yes, that does it nicely.  Thx.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #16824 [Core Tor/Tor]: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as clients

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#16824: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as
clients
-+-
 Reporter:  starlight|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  defect   | Status:
 |  needs_review
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.5.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:  Tor:
 |  0.2.6.10
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  mike-can, tor-client tor-relay   |  Actual Points:
  sidechannel logging easy   |
Parent ID:   | Points:  1
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+-

Comment (by n-critser):

 In that case I can add the beginning section of the text recommended by
 mikeperry:
 "You appear to be attempting to use Tor for both relay and client
 functionality at the same time. Unfortunately, a side channel issue (Bug
 #16585) means that this fact will be visible in network traffic patterns.
 "

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Re: [tor-bugs] #16824 [Core Tor/Tor]: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as clients

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#16824: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as
clients
-+-
 Reporter:  starlight|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  defect   | Status:
 |  needs_review
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  0.3.5.x-final
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:  Tor:
 |  0.2.6.10
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  mike-can, tor-client tor-relay   |  Actual Points:
  sidechannel logging easy   |
Parent ID:   | Points:  1
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+-
Changes (by nickm):

 * milestone:  Tor: unspecified => Tor: 0.3.5.x-final


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Re: [tor-bugs] #16824 [Core Tor/Tor]: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as clients

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#16824: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as
clients
-+-
 Reporter:  starlight|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  defect   | Status:
 |  needs_review
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  unspecified
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:  Tor:
 |  0.2.6.10
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  mike-can, tor-client tor-relay   |  Actual Points:
  sidechannel logging easy   |
Parent ID:   | Points:  1
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+-

Comment (by starlight):

 The warning is too mild.  Clear indication of traffic analysis
 vulnerability should be present.

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Re: [tor-bugs] #16824 [Core Tor/Tor]: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as clients

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#16824: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as
clients
-+-
 Reporter:  starlight|  Owner:  (none)
 Type:  defect   | Status:
 |  needs_review
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  unspecified
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:  Tor:
 |  0.2.6.10
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  mike-can, tor-client tor-relay   |  Actual Points:
  sidechannel logging easy   |
Parent ID:   | Points:  1
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+-
Changes (by n-critser):

 * status:  new => needs_review


Comment:

 Based on previous comments above and in IRC, the scope of this change was
 limited to adding a warning message for users who are running both in
 Relay and Client modes. The exact wording of the new message is as follows
 :
 "You are currently running as a server, and a client.
  If you do not actually want to run Tor as a client,
  you can add SocksPort 0 to your configuration, to turn off
  the default client behavior."

 PR # https://github.com/torproject/tor/pull/114

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Re: [tor-bugs] #16824 [Core Tor/Tor]: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as clients

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#16824: Emit a warning message about side channel leaks when using relays as
clients
-+-
 Reporter:  starlight|  Owner:
 Type:  defect   | Status:  new
 Priority:  High |  Milestone:  Tor:
 |  unspecified
Component:  Core Tor/Tor |Version:  Tor:
 |  0.2.6.10
 Severity:  Normal   | Resolution:
 Keywords:  mike-can, tor-client tor-relay   |  Actual Points:
  sidechannel logging easy   |
Parent ID:   | Points:  1
 Reviewer:   |Sponsor:
-+-
Changes (by nickm):

 * keywords:  mike-can => mike-can, tor-client tor-relay sidechannel logging
 easy


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