> I do not think that this is worthwhile. It establishes a precedent where
> setting your contact info is something that gets you banned, potentially
> incorrectly because it's unauthenticated, whereas we're unable to identify
> people who actually maliciously run several relays without such
Dear tor directory authorities,
TLDR: Would you blacklist relays with end-to-end correlation capabilities?
I'm asking to find out whether it makes sense to put any effort into
finding such operators [2]. If most dir auths would not blacklist such
relays than it does not make sense to look for
Dear snaptorg tor operator,
teor wrote [1]:
> TL;DR: we're talking about blacklisting your non-exit relays,
> because they don't have MyFamily set correctly.
>
> If you'd like help configuring MyFamily correctly, please let us know.
If you are wondering which relay is misconfigured, the last
>> Examples (generated daily):
>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/ornetstats/stats/master/o/potentially_dangerous_relaygroups.txt
>> (see CC)
>
> This is a useful check, but it is insufficient.
> Can you please produce a similar list for middles and exits by the same
> operator?
done
Hi Karsten,
could you look into onionoo.tpo, looks like it is stuck again.
thanks,
nusenu
> https://onionoo.torproject.org/details?limit=4
"relays_published":"2016-10-30 23:00:00",
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> some time ago I reported onionoo's poor reverse DNS results
> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/18342
> and it didn't change since then.
>
> As of 2016-07-02 08:00 (tpo instance)
> 3144 out of 8473 (~37%) still have no reverse DNS result (=IP address).
>
> Do you have an idea
ly named "73-75 Dr. Staicovici" and "Warszawa
02-822" in your DB, which means the problem still persists.
actual names:
http://bgp.he.net/AS8708
http://bgp.he.net/AS12741
thank you for looking into this again,
nusenu
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whether this will improve sometime before 2016-09-01?
thanks,
nusenu
btw: Thanks for working around the maxmind AS problem with reverting to
the May version.
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> - We started this
> website because we believe that competition can make more operators
> improve their relay by following best practice. This would make the
> whole Tor-network better if we have straight guidelines.
> https://www.relayawards.com/
If it is about competing operators then you
> I've noticed a lot of ASNs are no longer showing their whois descr field in
> the Onionoo output.
>
> Is this expected?
you can find more about it in trac:
https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/19420
https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/19437
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Hi Thomas,
I'm using your onionoo instance to fetch details documents.
Currently it is stuck at 2016-05-26 00:00, you might want to look into it?
(even though its date does not change since a few days its file contents do)
https://onionoo.thecthulhu.com/details?limit=0
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Hi,
there is a strict limit on the number of relays that one can run on a
single IP address to make Sybil attacks harder, but there are no limits
on sign-up rates.
Such sign-up rate limits would prevent many of the known and simple
Sibyls of the past months and probably reduce the manual actions
(since this is not really part of that ticket I'm moving this reply to
tor-dev)
Replying to [comment:21 virgil][1]:
> Re: comment #15
>> 2) there are no incentives for a relay operator to set it properly
>
> Roster aims to fix this. http://tor-roster.org
Quite the opposite I think.
tor-roster
> Regarding the state of family support. I've been working on a project
> which could be used to expand the number of running relays and have been
> trying to find the best way to coordinate this so as to make it both
> obvious who the operator is (which can be done with contact info) as well
>
> Damian Johnson:
>> > https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-wiki-changes/2015-December/017387.html
> thanks for that url.
Oh, looks like the list is pushing emails again.
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Damian Johnson:
> https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-wiki-changes/2015-December/017387.html
thanks for that url.
Maybe it would make sense to mention that this list is discontinued on
the subscription page
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-wiki-changes
Are
Hi,
tor-wiki-changes doesn't seem to send out any emails?
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-wiki-changes
https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/18262
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Hi,
I like weasel's [1] SyslogIdentityTag feature that is available in
debian 0.2.7 packages only.
The ticket [1] suggests that it will be included in tor 0.2.8.x
(milestone). Would you consider to backport it to 0.2.7 as well so other
platforms can make use of it before we see tor 0.2.8
>>> Is it possible that the "Tor metrics" count everything but "Linux"
>>> and "Windows" as FreeBSD?
>>
>> Good question. Not exactly: it's counting everything containing "BSD"
>> as "FreeBSD". Ugh. I agree that this is misleading. How about we
>> change the graph legend to "BSD"?
+1
>
> Also, here are the steps to reproduce:
>
> wget
> https://collector.torproject.org/archive/relay-descriptors/consensuses/consensuses-2015-11.tar.xz
> tar xvJf consensuses-2015-11.tar.xz
> go get git.torproject.org/user/phw/sybilhunter.git
> sybilhunter -data consensuses-2015-11/
Philipp Winter:
> Red pixels are used to highlight suspiciously similar clusters.
Last year [1] there were a few huge groups, 3 of them are not flagged
(black lines, not red) even though they look like a perfectly matching
group?
[1]
(thread split from [1])
s7r wrote:
> - - when you run tor --orport [...] just to generate the keys in a
> non-interactive way, include a PublishServerDescriptor 0 in the
> command as well, send the log to /dev/null and terminate the process
> immediately. The descriptor will have to be published
> I think [2] is the wrong link? There's nothing about this in there.
thanks for pointing that out, correct URL:
https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/17603
> I think this is expected and correct behavior.
>
> If medium term signing key exists, and is sufficiently valid in the
>
s7r:
> On 11/28/2015 2:26 PM, nusenu wrote:
>> > The important info for me here is: How is "about to expire"
>> > defined? x days before expiry or
> I think 24 hours before expiry.
After trying this in practice I can confirm that tor renewed the signing
> I have actually tried this in practice to see what happens.
>
> If you replace the ed25519 medium term singing key and certificate in
> $datadirectory/keys, Tor will re-read keys from disk even if you don't
> send a SIGHUP when it outputs:
>
> [notice] It looks like I should try to generate
the 'problem' solved itself
(tor does not need HUP when it's keyfile changed)
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Hi,
I'm wondering if a service like a future tor weather could have an
additional check to warn relay ops about key expiry:
(something like "Email me when the router's signing key is about to
expire")
Do relays disclose the fact that they are run via OfflineMasterKey 1?
Do dir auths/tor clients
ell and --no-pass is implemented,
but I'm also fine with the current way to generate keys.
> - make it as hard as you can for users to accidentally mix keys
> belonging to different relays. This will be a tough one.
I'm aiming to add a check that aborts if a key is found more than once
>> How can a tor relay op display a given signing key's expiry date?
>> >
> I don't think there is an option for this.
filed a ticket for it:
https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/17639
Is there a custom openssl command to display the expiry date until this
gets implemented in tor?
Is the offline master key limited to ed25519 keys and useless
> while using ed25519 + RSA keys at the same time? (because the
> RSA key is not offline?)
>>> Hmmm. Probably yes. Until transition (until we remove permanently
>>> RSA identities) only the ed25519 key will be protected,
>>> Does a tor operator has to SIGHUP a running tor instance after
>>> copying the new signing keys to the appropriate folder or will tor
>>> attempt to reload that file as soon as this signing key expires?
>> Yes.
>
> Yes, HUP?
reference:
How can a tor relay op display a given signing key's expiry date?
>
>>> I don't think there is an option for this.
>>
>> filed a ticket for it:
>> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/17639
>>
>>
>> Is there a custom openssl command to display the expiry date until
>>
>> I copy/expose the following files to the relay:
>> >
>> > [ 'ed25519_master_id_public_key', 'ed25519_signing_cert',
>> > 'ed25519_signing_secret_key', 'secret_id_key', 'secret_onion_key',
>> > 'secret_onion_key_ntor']
>> >
>> >
> When first setting up (new relay) or restoring the relay,
ecret_key', 'secret_id_key', 'secret_onion_key',
'secret_onion_key_ntor']
[1]
https://github.com/nusenu/ansible-relayor/commit/2c4040df7848f382ced02b43f35ca8a9f07ab284
[2]
https://github.com/nusenu/ansible-relayor/blob/2c4040df7848f382ced02b43f35ca8a9f07ab284/tasks/configure.yml#L18
[3]
https://g
s7r:
> The "Enter passphrase" request when manually calling --keygen is
> optional, not mandatory. If you just leave it blank and proceed it
> will just create an unencrypted master identity key.
I know, but that requires someone to press enter (or a dirty expect
script) if you want to run that
>> The "Enter passphrase" request when manually calling --keygen is
>> optional, not mandatory. If you just leave it blank and proceed it
>> will just create an unencrypted master identity key.
>
> I know, but that requires someone to press enter (or a dirty expect
> script) if you want to run
> Maybe:
>
> echo "" | whatyouwanttodo --keygen
>
> or
>
> whatyouwanttodo --keygen < EOF
Yes I tried that already, but no it does not work.
That would require the program (tor) to read from sdtin - which it doesn't.
solution:
generate master keys non-interactively:
tor --datadir data
Hi,
roster's recommended tor version check seems broken, example:
http://tor-roster.org/family_detail/963ADC0137505151C1AFA6757DD2367EDEEC7B62
Runs Recommended Tor Version For All Relays: false
but all relays run 0.2.4.27 - which is currently a 'recommended version'
as per
>> Is the offline master key limited to ed25519 keys and useless
>> > while using ed25519 + RSA keys at the same time? (because the RSA
>> > key is not offline?)
>> >
> Hmmm. Probably yes. Until transition (until we remove permanently RSA
> identities) only the ed25519 key will be protected, RSA
--passphrase but doing so would
potentially write your passphrase to your shell history file).
thanks!
[1] https://github.com/nusenu/ansible-relayor
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Hi,
since tor 0.2.7.5 is apparently not very far [1] from being released I
was wondering whether there is any documentation about the new offline
master key functionality?
(or is this undocumented because it is not considered for general use yet?)
tor v0.2.7.4-rc's manual has the following:
"
>> since tor 0.2.7.5 is apparently not very far [1] from being released I
>> was wondering whether there is any documentation about the new offline
>> master key functionality?
>
> Hi! There's a draft faq at
> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/17021
>
> and a ticket to improve the
Hi,
was there a specific reason for reverting the tpo instance back to
version 2.3?
(since 2015-09-27 07:00)
thanks!
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Hi,
in the last two days someone started generating a steady amount of new
relay fingerprints on a single IP:port (2 per hour, actually a lot more
than that but only to make it into the consensus) [1].
I'm surprised that actually both of them end up in the consensus.
example:
Hi,
tor-roster has a badge for in-family geo diversity:
"Geo Diversity in Relays (Number of countries / Number of relays >= 0.5)"
Do you consider in-family diversity so important - even though all of
them are run by a single entity anyway?
I'd consider the tor network's overall diversity far
> This is fixed now.
thanks!
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Hi,
data in the /recent folder goes back 72 hours,
/archive is updated "every few days" [1].
The latest file in the archive folder [2] is currently from 2015-09-07:
votes-2015-08.tar.xz07-Sep-2015 04:11 159M
but does not contain any data from September 2015.
is there currently
>> I don't think banning GCE, AWS and MS Azure is an efficient method
>> to
>>> significantly increase the cost of attacks because it is trivial
>>> for an attacker to quickly spin up "a large number of disposable
>>> machines" at other ISPs as well.
> It has other benefits. Those big providers
> The current "family" field will stay available until Atlas and Globe
> are updated. If I should also wait for other clients to be updated,
> please let me know.
Please do not forget about compass before removing the 'family' field,
thanks.
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> The current "family" field will stay available until Atlas and Globe
> are updated. If I should also wait for other clients to be updated,
> please let me know.
If someone is actually going to adjust atlas/globe/compass it would be
great if that someone could also take this enhancement request
> We sometimes see attacks from relays that are hosted on cloud platforms.
> I have been wondering if the benefit of having cloud-hosted relays
> outweighs the abuse we see from them.
I don't think banning GCE, AWS and MS Azure is an efficient method to
significantly increase the cost of attacks
Hi,
since a request to make bwauth output available has been closed as
wontfix previously [1] I'm not going to ask whether this data would be
added to CollecTor, but maybe bwauth ops are publishing it
'inofficially' (like Tom does [2]) for the dir auth to fetch already and
would be willing to
Changing the code to return the mean of the two center elements from
even arrays would break all authority voting, and wouldn't actually be
useful.
Yes, that is what Sebastian said on IRC as well. Can you shed some light
as to why it would break voting?
thanks
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Description:
from today's measurement meeting:
15:00:20 virgil karsten: I've decided I'm going to fix the definition of
median
15:00:26 virgil in the tor sourcecode
15:00:36 karsten virgil: is it broken?
15:00:53 karsten or just not specified as clearly as it should be?
15:01:01 virgil for ordered list
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Hi,
https://gitweb.torproject.org/torspec.git/tree/dir-spec.txt#n2028
If 3 or more authorities provide a Measured= keyword for a router,
the authorities produce a consensus containing a w Bandwidth=
keyword equal to the median of the Measured=
Hi,
I was wondering why onionoo reported empty platform strings for a
growing number of relays.
I wanted to confirm that by looking at collector data, but then I
noticed that there is a problem with collector data itself.
Files in [1] usually have a size of around 1 MB, currently they are at
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In the event of collector missing data, there are (at least) two
backup instances. One is at bwauth.ritter.vg - no website, just
files.
Does that have the same issue?
https://bwauth.ritter.vg/rsync/relay-descriptors/server-descriptors-cat/
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Hi Karsten,
just in case this is not known yet, onionoo.tpo does no longer update
and is stuck at:
relays_published:2015-07-29 07:00:00
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Hi,
[4] https://leivaburto.github.io/sop-proposal
is this strictly a one dashboard for one tor daemon or will this also be
usable to monitor multiple tor instances without running multiple
dashboard instances in parallel?
(while leaving the 'how
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The main difference between Roster and Globe/Atlas is that Roster
provides information at the level of *operators*, not individual
relays.
Agreed, this was just a placeholder. Will put contact info instead
for now.
Thanks, alot better now.
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Main things accomplished so far: * Setup the basic website at:
http://www.tor-roster.org/
Thanks for doing this!
A few comments:
- - the page seems to be AS name centric
- first column of the table is AS name
- only clickable
this be translated to something like
the relay's bandwidth usage and usefulness will be reduced
latency will be higher
security will be degraded due to fallback to DH-1024
?
thanks,
nusenu
[1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.os.openbsd.misc/218944
[2]
https://gitweb.torproject.org/tor.git/plain
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Hi Damian,
does DocTor's design allow for triggers that alert if a certain amount
of relays signed up within one day or within a week (instead of within
one hour)?
Another trigger could be the last_restarted timestamp.
If that makes sense I would
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https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/16276
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teor:
MyFamily requires bidirectional declarations to be effective.
I'm aware of that fact ;)
In this case: OnionOO appears to correctly implement the
bidirectional MyFamily logic
Apparently it doesn't.
Since onionoo says there is a
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Hi,
by comparing different methodologies of parsing myfamily data I
stumbled upon differences between onionoo and compass.
After manual review I assume there is a bug in onionoo (or onionoo has
a different opinion on what families actually are)
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Hi,
based on your answer and linked trac entry, I assume my point was not
entirely clear.
I was specifically wondering about a combination of *both*
($FP=nickname) something I haven't seen till now:
Example as provided in the URLs of my last
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Hi,
according to the spec [1] relay ops can choose between fingerprint
(with and without $ prefix) and nicknames when constructing their
MyFamily configs. The man page recommends fingerprints.
Now I'm faced with [2][3] families that use a
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Hi Philipp,
do you consider feature requests via [1] or would you recommend
forking and implementing it oneself?
thanks,
nusenu
[1] https://github.com/NullHypothesis/exitmap/issues
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.)
* to the systemd bug tracker if they are bugs in systemd itself
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=89875#c2
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2015-April/031377.html
If anyone is interested in systemd problems I stumble on in the tor
context:
https://github.com/nusenu/ansible
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intrigeri:
This is being worked on there: https://bugs.debian.org/761403
(which should be a more appropriate forum to discuss this topic.)
Also for the ubuntu packages?
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just for the record:
'systemctl reload tor' fails due to hardening restrictions in tor's
systemd service file [1]:
CapabilityBoundingSet = CAP_SETUID CAP_SETGID ...
The proper 'fix' is:
PermissionsStartOnly=yes
REF:
support would also improve security when taking
advantage of systemd's security features - a few of them are
unfortunately buggy and therefore disabled in the files below.
tested with jessie:
https://github.com/nusenu/ansible-relayor/blob/master/files/debian_tor%40.service
tested with vivid:
https
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Karsten Loesing:
That timestamp is updated as last step of the hourly update
process. The details documents that you're fetching may
have been updated before. That would also explain some
differences.
Wouldn't it make sense to mention/use
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Karsten Loesing:
These might either be bugs, or one instance was missing a
descriptor or consensus that the other instance was processing.
I assume the instances do not process the same descriptors in every
case. That would explain most of the
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Hi,
timestamps are useful to link relays, unfortunately onionoo only says
in which consensus the relay was first seen (granularity: 1hour) but
does not include the timestamp of the first seen descriptor that ended
up in the consensus (published
that both instances use the same maxmind
files and their DNS servers provide the same answers?
One example:
Torprojects instance says: flags:[]
cthulhu's instance says: flags:[]
thanks,
nusenu
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eHK0EUcmq
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other examples:
different views on when last_changed_address_or_port actually happened:
A4877053906D36F47F0E610DC56E95601123C02A,last_changed_address_or_port
:2015-04-13
14:00:00
vs.
space one would probably need for a non-public onionoo instance?
thanks,
nusenu
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fPW3PgnilPFAikaH4iJzxbvVS8FrZdG3d93QM6uDsMHOfwuZZJg
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By the way, are you aware of Philipp Winter's work on a better
Sybil attack detector?
If you mean
http://notebooks.nymity.ch/detecting_sybils.html
then yes, I've seen it.
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:
- - (most) descriptor fields
- - everything that onionoo provides in a details record (geoip, asn,
rdns, tordnsel, cw, ...)
- - historic records
I didn't find something matching so far, so I'll go ahead, but if you
know of other existing relay db schemas I'd like to hear about it.
thanks,
nusenu
the socket file is create as root and then changed to the tor
user (chown).
Is it possible to change this to not require
CAP_DAC_OVERRIDE and CAP_CHOWN capabilities anymore?
thanks,
Nusenu
[1]
https://gitweb.torproject.org/tor.git/tree/contrib/dist/tor.service.in#n
26
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Thanks for the reply, I added a trac entry:
https://bugs.torproject.org/15659
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On 05/04/15 23:35, Nusenu wrote:
can one download historic onionoo documents (details.json)
archived somewhere or would one have to setup onionoo + feed
old data into it to achieve that?
There are no archives of Onionoo's documents
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Hi Karsten,
can one download historic onionoo documents (details.json) archived
somewhere or would one have to setup onionoo + feed old data into it
to achieve that?
thanks,
Nusenu
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one tor instance per ORPort line) sounds a lot
simpler than it actually would be. How do you handle ControlPort, HS,
DataDir, ExitPolicy and basically any other config option, ...
but since I need a solution in the near future I'll probably just go
with multiple services on OpenBSD.
thanks,
Nusenu
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IMO, Atlas is has better aesthetics
I agree.
Perhaps you have a good point? Should we be focusing efforts on
either Atlas or Globe, rather than both?
Given the scars maintenance resources I wanted to suggest the same thing.
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Well, this is probably difficult to argue about. Personally, I
like Globe's interface more. A matter of taste?
Yes, definitely.
But more importantly, I think Globe has the better code. That's
probably a question for real web front-end
/tor-experimental-0.2.7.x-jessie/
Generally speaking it would just be a lot cleaner on my side if there
would be such a static place to go for alpha releases.
regards,
Nusenu
[1] https://github.com/nusenu/ansible-relayor
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Hi,
is globe or atlas actively maintained?
Does it make sense to create trac entries?
(I just want to avoid doing worthless things.)
thanks,
Nusenu
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communication channel
(trac), please let me know if I should move this elsewhere.
thanks,
Nusenu
[1] https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/14995#comment:14
[2] https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/14995#comment:24
https://github.com/nusenu/tor-multi-instance-initscripts
?
thanks,
Nusenu
[1]
https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/onionoo-announce/2015/thread.html
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Karsten Loesing:
Okay, just in case you change your mind, let's talk more about
integrating this into Onionoo. There's already the `family`
parameter which I specifically added for Virgil's thing.
Yes I'm using the 'family' list as well now -
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Nusenu:
I figured it might make sense to discuss this in a separate
thread.
And just in case you were wondering, if you ever have a feature
request for Onionoo, I'd be happy to discuss that. In contrast
to some of its clients, Onionoo
.
You can judge by having a look the example that actually truncates
contactinfo here:
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/nusenu/misc-files/master/biggest_tor_relay_operators_by_MyFamily.txt
I can tell, it doesn't look as nice without truncation ;)
Again, I didn't look at the code, but you might want
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I figured it might make sense to discuss this in a separate thread.
And just in case you were wondering, if you ever have a feature
request for Onionoo, I'd be happy to discuss that. In contrast to
some of its clients, Onionoo itself is
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another good reason to move it to the backend:
Virgil (also using MyFamily data to group relays) and any other
application using onionoo can also take advantage of that (no need to
re-implement it n times).
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Karsten Loesing:
maybe give it a new name
Is 'aggregator' ok, or should there be no 'tor' in the word at all?
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Nusenu:
Okay, just in case you change your mind, let's talk more about
integrating this into Onionoo. There's already the `family`
parameter which I specifically added for Virgil's thing.
Yes I'm using the 'family' list as well now
but not exposed in gui)
https://github.com/nusenu/tor-compass
For all output I (mis)used the nick column as a quick solution since
it is not used otherwise when grouping.
Advertised bw is broken for some time. There is no
'advertised_bandwidth_fraction' (This field was removed from onionoo
in November
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