Re: [tor-relays] Explaining Tor to worried parent

[Andrew Deason]

On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 13:53:55 +0100
DrNotThatEvil  wrote:

> Have you guys/gals ever faced situations similar to this? How did you
> handle it?

I have not, but to add to what others have said:

- One of the benefits of running an exit is that it can be educational,
  from the perspective of the law as well as technology. You can get
  some experience with dealing with DMCA/abuse requests and potentially
  talking to law enforcement about a service that you can be confident
  of the legal status of. That can be valuable before you need to talk
  to LE or "rights holders" for any other reason throughout your life.
  Assuming niftybunny is correct on that info of operators getting
  prosecuted, you are arguably more likely to be prosecuted for
  something you have no relation to (e.g. police paperwork mixing you up
  with someone else) than for running an exit.

- You mentioned "employment opportunities", but assuming your field of
  choice is related, I would think that running an exit would _improve_
  your employment opportunities, even (or especially) if you encounter
  public legal trouble as long as you're not stupid about it.

- If it's causing you issues, just run a middle relay; it's not a big
  deal. All relays (properly configured etc etc) are useful, even
  bridges. If you're pretending that you're making a big difference to
  some poor persecuted insurgent in China or whatever, keep in mind
  that I don't believe exits help clients reach hidden services, but
  middle relays and bridges do.
  
- Running relays/exits is "cool" (...right?). You're just not with it,
  mom.

Just don't run an exit from home.

-- 
Andrew Deason
adea...@dson.org

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Re: [tor-relays] Explaining Tor to worried parent

[niftybunny]

Easy (and shitty) solution: Just allow 443 and 80 on your Exit and you will 
never get those mails. 

I am beyond the point of giving a fuck so I allow everything besides E-mail. 
And I do get Spam E-Mail reports sent over Web Interfaces … 

Markus


> On 12. Nov 2018, at 18:55, Kenneth Freeman  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/12/2018 10:14 AM, niftybunny wrote:
>> Yeah, one of the complete bullshit things. I get around 200 emails per day 
>> like this one:
> 
> This is good to know. My ISP just put my service on hold, whereas
> IP-Echelon and its ilk can only sound ominous. Cue the theremin!
> Zwiebelfreunde is the service I use, so I'm glad to hear it's such
> a bulwark.
> 
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Re: [tor-relays] Explaining Tor to worried parent

[Kenneth Freeman]

On 11/12/2018 10:14 AM, niftybunny wrote:
> Yeah, one of the complete bullshit things. I get around 200 emails per day 
> like this one:

This is good to know. My ISP just put my service on hold, whereas
IP-Echelon and its ilk can only sound ominous. Cue the theremin!
Zwiebelfreunde is the service I use, so I'm glad to hear it's such
a bulwark.



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Re: [tor-relays] Explaining Tor to worried parent

[niftybunny]

Yeah, one of the complete bullshit things. I get around 200 emails per day like 
this one:

-cut-cut-cut-cut-cut-

Dear Sir or Madam:

We are contacting you on behalf of Paramount Pictures Corporation (Paramount).  
Under penalty of perjury, I assert that IP-Echelon Pty. Ltd., (IP-Echelon) is 
authorized to act on behalf of the owner of the exclusive copyrights that are 
alleged to be infringed herein.

IP-Echelon has become aware that the below IP addresses have been using your 
service for distributing video files, which contain infringing video content 
that is exclusively owned by Paramount.

IP-Echelon has a good faith belief that the Paramount video content that is 
described in the below report has not been authorized for sharing or 
distribution by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law.  I also assert that 
the information contained in this notice is accurate to the best of our 
knowledge.

We are requesting your immediate assistance in removing and disabling access to 
the infringing material from your network.  We also ask that you ensure the 
user and/or IP address owner refrains from future use and sharing of Paramount 
materials and property.

In complying with this notice, Zwiebelfreunde e.V. should not destroy any 
evidence, which may be relevant in a lawsuit, relating to the infringement 
alleged, including all associated electronic documents and data relating to the 
presence of infringing items on your network, which shall be preserved while 
disabling public access, irrespective of any document retention or corporate 
policy to the contrary.

Please note that this letter is not intended as a full statement of the facts; 
and does not constitute a waiver of any rights to recover damages, incurred by 
virtue of any unauthorized or infringing activities, occurring on your network. 
 All such rights, as well as claims for other relief, are expressly reserved.

Should you need to contact me, I may be reached at the following address:

Adrian Leatherland
On behalf of IP-Echelon as an agent for Paramount
Address: 7083 Hollywood Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90028, United States
Email: p...@copyright.ip-echelon.com 


Evidentiary Information:
Protocol: BITTORRENT
Infringed Work: The Dictator
Infringing FileName: Dictator.2012.720p.BluRay.x264-LEONARDO_[scarabey.org 
].mkv
Infringing FileSize: 1717703741
Infringer's IP Address: 185.220.101.29
Infringer's Port: 45772
Initial Infringement Timestamp: 2018-11-12T16:43:39Z

-cut-cut-cut-cut-cut-

the best part: 

Should you need to contact me, I may be reached at the following address:
Address: 7083 Hollywood Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90028, United States
Email: p...@copyright.ip-echelon.com 


I tried to reach out to them at that e-mail. No reply. 

I tried to reach out to them via the company e-mail on their website. No reply. 

I called them, they will call me back. Never heard back from them.

I even wrote a snail mail letter to them. Never answered.

Now they get a reply from my mail script and thats it. 

Markus


> On 12. Nov 2018, at 11:59, Kenneth Freeman  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/12/2018 08:23 AM, niftybunny wrote:
> 
>> 1. ISPs want to make money, in fact they have to turn in a profit to 
>> survive. Yeah, I know 
>> that sounds unbelievable. Tor is legal but someone has to take care of abuse 
>> mails. These support 
>> people want money for their work. If you get lots of abuse mails and
> the support person is working
>> for 2 house on them and cost the company 50 euros and you are paying 10
> euros for the hosting, they
>> will try to get rid of you. Its simple as that. Another issue is that
> their is tier 1 support that
>> is dumb as hell. Try to talk to KabelDeutschland “Internet Specialists"
> (now Vodafone) about DNS
>> issues or the OSI model. They have no clue at all und you get suicidal after 
>> a few minutes over 
>> the incompetence.
> 
> Just so. Legally ISP have to respond to DMCA notices, so the less legal
> overhead they have to budget for the happier they are. When I first
> began running Tor many moons ago I set up an exit node after an exchange
> of e-mails with my ISP. Nonetheless they got a DMCA notice (copyright
> violation) within two days and automatically cut me off at the knees.
> I'm severely deaf and I had to phone the "Help" desk who weren't about
> to deviate from their "Three strikes" script" and weren't interested
> whatsoever in any input from my end other than following their protocol.
> 
> 
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Re: [tor-relays] Explaining Tor to worried parent

[Kenneth Freeman]

On 11/12/2018 08:23 AM, niftybunny wrote:

> 1. ISPs want to make money, in fact they have to turn in a profit to survive. 
> Yeah, I know 
>that sounds unbelievable. Tor is legal but someone has to take care of abuse 
>mails. These support 
>people want money for their work. If you get lots of abuse mails and
the support person is working
>for 2 house on them and cost the company 50 euros and you are paying 10
euros for the hosting, they
>will try to get rid of you. Its simple as that. Another issue is that
their is tier 1 support that
>is dumb as hell. Try to talk to KabelDeutschland “Internet Specialists"
(now Vodafone) about DNS
>issues or the OSI model. They have no clue at all und you get suicidal after a 
>few minutes over 
>the incompetence.

Just so. Legally ISP have to respond to DMCA notices, so the less legal
overhead they have to budget for the happier they are. When I first
began running Tor many moons ago I set up an exit node after an exchange
of e-mails with my ISP. Nonetheless they got a DMCA notice (copyright
violation) within two days and automatically cut me off at the knees.
I'm severely deaf and I had to phone the "Help" desk who weren't about
to deviate from their "Three strikes" script" and weren't interested
whatsoever in any input from my end other than following their protocol.




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Re: [tor-relays] Explaining Tor to worried parent

[John Ricketts]

+1

On Nov 12, 2018, at 09:24, niftybunny 
mailto:ab...@to-surf-and-protect.net>> wrote:

Okay, this is the tldr version, if you want the long version e-mail me at 
ab...@to-surf.and-protect.net

1. ISPs want to make money, in fact they have to turn in a profit to survive. 
Yeah, I know that sounds unbelievable. Tor is legal but someone has to take 
care of abuse mails. These support people want money for their work. If you get 
lots of abuse mails and the support person is working for 2 house on them and 
cost the company 50 euros and you are paying 10 euros for the hosting, they 
will try to get rid of you. Its simple as that. Another issue is that their is 
tier 1 support that is dumb as hell. Try to talk to KabelDeutschland "Internet 
Specialists" (now Vodafone) about DNS issues or the OSI model. They have no 
clue at all und you get suicidal after a few minutes over the incompetence.

2. I get a few hundred "normal" abuse mails a day. I answer them, 99,x% I get 
no reply on my answer.

3. I get lots of subpoenas and mails from FBI and other state actors. In these 
e-mails they are *always* treating me as attester, never as the defendant.

4. Even as the Bundeskriminalamt (Feral State Police here in Germany) chased me 
over multiple real estate I owe one the first thing they said to me was that 
they know Tor is legal and I am not a defendant but they need to follow the IP 
data and need to know that I have no data that would help them.

5. Stalking you a little, you should be from the Netherlands. So we have the 
same EU laws.

6. There is not a single EU citizen ever indicted over a Tor exit. Ignore the 
Austria judgment, that was bad press work and to long to explain atm.

Markus



On 12. Nov 2018, at 13:53, DrNotThatEvil mailto:re...@wilv.in>> 
wrote:

Hi everybody,

My exit got suspended for a little a few hours today, even tho I
contacted my isp before
to explain the situation (it was related to a spam blacklist suspend
policy). I got the matter
resolved quickly but due to the annoyance I mentioned it to a parent.

The conversation quickly devolved into worry and fear advising me to
stop running it,
to be honest now that I think about it from her perspective I can't
blame her for thinking like this.
However the responses and explanations from my end never hit the mark, I
know why I'm doing it
I know their might be risks but that I'm doing something that I believe in.

Have you guys/gals ever faced situations similar to this? How did you
handle it?

Secondly she also raised the following question:
'if you don't do it somebody else will, so why do you put yourself at risk?

Thirdly she detected from the conversation that a Exit Relay might not
be free from legal issues and
I can't say that this is not the case, but I do think her view of these
issues is utmost grim bringing up
my future and employment opportunities.
How would do you view/explain the severity of these legal issues?

Kind Regards,

Willmar

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Re: [tor-relays] Explaining Tor to worried parent

[niftybunny]

Okay, this is the tldr version, if you want the long version e-mail me at 
ab...@to-surf.and-protect.net 

1. ISPs want to make money, in fact they have to turn in a profit to survive. 
Yeah, I know that sounds unbelievable. Tor is legal but someone has to take 
care of abuse mails. These support people want money for their work. If you get 
lots of abuse mails and the support person is working for 2 house on them and 
cost the company 50 euros and you are paying 10 euros for the hosting, they 
will try to get rid of you. Its simple as that. Another issue is that their is 
tier 1 support that is dumb as hell. Try to talk to KabelDeutschland “Internet 
Specialists" (now Vodafone) about DNS issues or the OSI model. They have no 
clue at all und you get suicidal after a few minutes over the incompetence.

2. I get a few hundred “normal” abuse mails a day. I answer them, 99,x% I get 
no reply on my answer. 

3. I get lots of subpoenas and mails from FBI and other state actors. In these 
e-mails they are *always* treating me as attester, never as the defendant. 

4. Even as the Bundeskriminalamt (Feral State Police here in Germany) chased me 
over multiple real estate I owe one the first thing they said to me was that 
they know Tor is legal and I am not a defendant but they need to follow the IP 
data and need to know that I have no data that would help them.

5. Stalking you a little, you should be from the Netherlands. So we have the 
same EU laws. 

6. There is not a single EU citizen ever indicted over a Tor exit. Ignore the 
Austria judgment, that was bad press work and to long to explain atm.

Markus



> On 12. Nov 2018, at 13:53, DrNotThatEvil  wrote:
> 
> Hi everybody,
> 
> My exit got suspended for a little a few hours today, even tho I
> contacted my isp before
> to explain the situation (it was related to a spam blacklist suspend
> policy). I got the matter
> resolved quickly but due to the annoyance I mentioned it to a parent.
> 
> The conversation quickly devolved into worry and fear advising me to
> stop running it,
> to be honest now that I think about it from her perspective I can't
> blame her for thinking like this.
> However the responses and explanations from my end never hit the mark, I
> know why I'm doing it
> I know their might be risks but that I'm doing something that I believe in.
> 
> Have you guys/gals ever faced situations similar to this? How did you
> handle it?
> 
> Secondly she also raised the following question:
> 'if you don't do it somebody else will, so why do you put yourself at risk?
> 
> Thirdly she detected from the conversation that a Exit Relay might not
> be free from legal issues and
> I can't say that this is not the case, but I do think her view of these
> issues is utmost grim bringing up
> my future and employment opportunities.
> How would do you view/explain the severity of these legal issues?
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Willmar
> 
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Re: [tor-relays] Explaining Tor to worried parent

[Kenneth Freeman]

On 11/12/2018 05:53 AM, DrNotThatEvil wrote:

> Secondly she also raised the following question:
> 'if you don't do it somebody else will, so why do you put yourself at risk?

If not us, whom? If not now, when? ~Anabasis

>Thirdly she detected from the conversation that a Exit Relay might not
>be free from legal issues andI can't say that this is not the case, but 
>I do think her view of these issues is utmost grim bringing up my future
>and employment opportunities. How would do you view/explain the severity
>of these legal issues?

I run into this all the time whilst proselytizing for Tor, as for
example at a local non-profit makerspace recently. "Kiddie porn! FBI
raids!" was the hue and cry, whereupon people's brains shut down. But
this is very much a public relations issue, not a legal issue, assuming
that you have the prerequisite legal boilerplate in place. You do have
to be loaded for bear to run an exit and mind your p's and q's; I myself
am currently running an exit under the aegis of Zwiebelfreunde (Friends
of the Onion) in Germany, as they take care of the technical and legal
overhead & catch whatever flak comes its way.






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