Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[ITechGeek]

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On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 10:39 AM, krishna e bera  wrote:

> On 14/08/16 05:23 AM, shirish शिरीष wrote:
>
>> at bottom :-
>>
>> On 13/08/2016, grarpamp  wrote:
>>
>>> Общество шифропанков
>>> http://vabu56j2ep2rwv3b.onion/
>>> BitTorrent трэкер.
>>> http://vabu56j2ep2rwv3b.onion/Tracker.html
>>> Это одна из его установок которую вы можете использовать в своих torrent
>>> файлах.
>>> http://xodv6rg4bvpfpcs7.onion:6969/announce
>>> --
>>> tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
>>> To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
>>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
>>>
>>>
>> any chance of an english translation somewhere or would have to use
>> google translate ?
>>
>>
> does google translate even work in onionspace?
>
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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[krishna e bera]

On 14/08/16 05:23 AM, shirish शिरीष wrote:

at bottom :-

On 13/08/2016, grarpamp  wrote:

Общество шифропанков
http://vabu56j2ep2rwv3b.onion/
BitTorrent трэкер.
http://vabu56j2ep2rwv3b.onion/Tracker.html
Это одна из его установок которую вы можете использовать в своих torrent
файлах.
http://xodv6rg4bvpfpcs7.onion:6969/announce
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any chance of an english translation somewhere or would have to use
google translate ?



does google translate even work in onionspace?
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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[shirish शिरीष]

at bottom :-

On 13/08/2016, grarpamp  wrote:
> Общество шифропанков
> http://vabu56j2ep2rwv3b.onion/
> BitTorrent трэкер.
> http://vabu56j2ep2rwv3b.onion/Tracker.html
> Это одна из его установок которую вы можете использовать в своих torrent
> файлах.
> http://xodv6rg4bvpfpcs7.onion:6969/announce
> --
> tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
> To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
>

any chance of an english translation somewhere or would have to use
google translate ?
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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[Aymeric Vitte]

Le 18/06/2016 à 01:49, juan a écrit :
> On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 23:20:16 +0200
> Aymeric Vitte  wrote:
>
>>
>> Le 17/06/2016 à 12:51, Zenaan Harkness a écrit :
 Even if an interesting move as you described (ie onions +
 onioncat) I
> don't really think that it can scale to the extent required by a
> bt p2p network, I don't think either that using hidden services
> is a good solution to reach peers, and is it not an issue to
> have potentially plenty of new nodes (peers) relaying the Tor
> traffic and decreasing the efficiency of the Tor circuits due to
> their upload bandwidth?
>>> Those are not grarpamp's point - as load increases toi the point
>>> where the network has some actual "problem", this will motivate
>>> various people to do those things required to actually improve the
>>> network.
>> That's what I am saying, move bt to anonymous, more traffic,
>> increasing nodes, this will never happen with the Tor network
>
>   I didn't pay attention to the allegdly 'technical' details but
>   the bottom line is that the tor mafia is not interested in
>   having more traffic and helping honest people fight against the
>   copyright cunts. 
>
>   Which is hardly surprising. The tor project isn't interested in
>   doing anything that could even slightly threaten the americunt
>   establishment. Granted it would be rather absurd for a US
>   military 'spinoff' to do that. 
>

Anonymity is not required to defeat monitoring, cf
https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live , even better than trying to hide,
cf https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live#deanonymizing-the-vpn-peers
which as usual can lead to the very contrary than expected

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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[Aymeric Vitte]

Le 18/06/2016 à 02:01, Zenaan Harkness a écrit :
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 11:20:16PM +0200, Aymeric Vitte wrote:
>> Le 17/06/2016 à 12:51, Zenaan Harkness a écrit :
 Even if an interesting move as you described (ie onions + onioncat) I
> don't really think that it can scale to the extent required by a bt p2p
> network, I don't think either that using hidden services is a good
> solution to reach peers, and is it not an issue to have potentially
> plenty of new nodes (peers) relaying the Tor traffic and decreasing the
> efficiency of the Tor circuits due to their upload bandwidth?
>>> Those are not grarpamp's point - as load increases toi the point where the
>>> network has some actual "problem", this will motivate various people to do
>>> those things required to actually improve the network.
>> That's what I am saying, move bt to anonymous, more traffic, increasing
>> nodes, this will never happen with the Tor network
> Why not?

For plenty of reasons: Tor is centralized, in order for others to extend
circuits toward a Tor node it must be declared in the centralization
system and therefore will get traffic (you can advertise a ridiculous
bandwidth to limit this but you will not stop it), then quality of the
circuits would be degraded by the bandwidth of the peers and their
instability (coming in and leaving), peers could act as bridges or just
"freeride" but then it seems difficult to reach them and/or will get
blackisted, monitoring of the Tor network to prevent and defeat attacks
will become much more difficult, etc, under that conditions it's
difficult to imagine a few thousands of nodes scale to hundred of
millions of peers like bt, and it's difficult to imagine that the Tor
project will collaborate with this, the Tor network is designed to
browse the web not to support a p2p system

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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 11:20:16PM +0200, Aymeric Vitte wrote:
> Le 17/06/2016 à 12:51, Zenaan Harkness a écrit :
> >> Even if an interesting move as you described (ie onions + onioncat) I
> >> > don't really think that it can scale to the extent required by a bt p2p
> >> > network, I don't think either that using hidden services is a good
> >> > solution to reach peers, and is it not an issue to have potentially
> >> > plenty of new nodes (peers) relaying the Tor traffic and decreasing the
> >> > efficiency of the Tor circuits due to their upload bandwidth?
> > Those are not grarpamp's point - as load increases toi the point where the
> > network has some actual "problem", this will motivate various people to do
> > those things required to actually improve the network.
> 
> That's what I am saying, move bt to anonymous, more traffic, increasing
> nodes, this will never happen with the Tor network

Why not?
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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[juan]

On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 23:20:16 +0200
Aymeric Vitte  wrote:

> 
> 
> Le 17/06/2016 à 12:51, Zenaan Harkness a écrit :
> >> Even if an interesting move as you described (ie onions +
> >> onioncat) I
> >> > don't really think that it can scale to the extent required by a
> >> > bt p2p network, I don't think either that using hidden services
> >> > is a good solution to reach peers, and is it not an issue to
> >> > have potentially plenty of new nodes (peers) relaying the Tor
> >> > traffic and decreasing the efficiency of the Tor circuits due to
> >> > their upload bandwidth?
> > Those are not grarpamp's point - as load increases toi the point
> > where the network has some actual "problem", this will motivate
> > various people to do those things required to actually improve the
> > network.
> 
> That's what I am saying, move bt to anonymous, more traffic,
> increasing nodes, this will never happen with the Tor network


I didn't pay attention to the allegdly 'technical' details but
the bottom line is that the tor mafia is not interested in
having more traffic and helping honest people fight against the
copyright cunts. 

Which is hardly surprising. The tor project isn't interested in
doing anything that could even slightly threaten the americunt
establishment. Granted it would be rather absurd for a US
military 'spinoff' to do that. 














> 

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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[Aymeric Vitte]

Le 17/06/2016 à 12:51, Zenaan Harkness a écrit :
>> Even if an interesting move as you described (ie onions + onioncat) I
>> > don't really think that it can scale to the extent required by a bt p2p
>> > network, I don't think either that using hidden services is a good
>> > solution to reach peers, and is it not an issue to have potentially
>> > plenty of new nodes (peers) relaying the Tor traffic and decreasing the
>> > efficiency of the Tor circuits due to their upload bandwidth?
> Those are not grarpamp's point - as load increases toi the point where the
> network has some actual "problem", this will motivate various people to do
> those things required to actually improve the network.

That's what I am saying, move bt to anonymous, more traffic, increasing
nodes, this will never happen with the Tor network

-- 
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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 12:41:51PM +0200, Aymeric Vitte wrote:
> Le 17/06/2016 à 06:55, grarpamp a écrit :
> > On 6/10/16, Mirimir  wrote:
> >> But there's still the traffic load. Or maybe, one could consider it as
> >> chaff. Just sort of, though. Right?
> > If that's the old "OMG, too much" argument... load re anon overlay nets
> > may be more like bitcoin's interrelated variables... difficulty, txfees, 
> > reward,
> > watts, price, txrate, etc... they'll slide nicely around to compensate until
> > some unsolveable fundamental limit is reached. ie:
> > Private (non-exit/I2P) use of these nets... if they slow, users will start
> > talking urging more nodes, which they'll readily deploy themselves since
> > private is low risk and satiates their use case. If the required node count
> > to support n-million users starts blowing up CPU/RAM, devs will
> > start getting poked to work on layering that. Even parallel nets
> > with usage charters may arise by then as a given networks adversary
> > resistance begets users begets trust begets honoring narrower charter.
> > Besides, load happens to useful nets, no point trying to stave it off
> > (nets are anon so staving is a no anyway), and trying to stave makes
> > the stavers look stupid.
> > A little education helps too, users will self regulate if they sense that,
> > "Oh shit, I know this net is used for , but I can't
> > even get my own  through, so I better ease up on variable ".
> 
> Even if an interesting move as you described (ie onions + onioncat) I
> don't really think that it can scale to the extent required by a bt p2p
> network, I don't think either that using hidden services is a good
> solution to reach peers, and is it not an issue to have potentially
> plenty of new nodes (peers) relaying the Tor traffic and decreasing the
> efficiency of the Tor circuits due to their upload bandwidth?

Those are not grarpamp's point - as load increases toi the point where the
network has some actual "problem", this will motivate various people to do
those things required to actually improve the network.

The fed guys might be pissed because their little spy comms network has a
problem, but soon enough, those problems will get solved, be sure of that
:)

Now, I would personally advise against something which would be known to
stress the network to the point of failure, e.g. changing a very popular
torrent software default config on the latest auto update to default to
Tor or I2P only.

But, I certainly do subscribe to grarpamp's position that bringing
at least a littl real pressure is bound to have some medium term
positive effects. These seems to me like logic 1-0-1!
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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[Aymeric Vitte]

Le 17/06/2016 à 06:55, grarpamp a écrit :
> On 6/10/16, Mirimir  wrote:
>> But there's still the traffic load. Or maybe, one could consider it as
>> chaff. Just sort of, though. Right?
> If that's the old "OMG, too much" argument... load re anon overlay nets
> may be more like bitcoin's interrelated variables... difficulty, txfees, 
> reward,
> watts, price, txrate, etc... they'll slide nicely around to compensate until
> some unsolveable fundamental limit is reached. ie:
> Private (non-exit/I2P) use of these nets... if they slow, users will start
> talking urging more nodes, which they'll readily deploy themselves since
> private is low risk and satiates their use case. If the required node count
> to support n-million users starts blowing up CPU/RAM, devs will
> start getting poked to work on layering that. Even parallel nets
> with usage charters may arise by then as a given networks adversary
> resistance begets users begets trust begets honoring narrower charter.
> Besides, load happens to useful nets, no point trying to stave it off
> (nets are anon so staving is a no anyway), and trying to stave makes
> the stavers look stupid.
> A little education helps too, users will self regulate if they sense that,
> "Oh shit, I know this net is used for , but I can't
> even get my own  through, so I better ease up on variable ".

Even if an interesting move as you described (ie onions + onioncat) I
don't really think that it can scale to the extent required by a bt p2p
network, I don't think either that using hidden services is a good
solution to reach peers, and is it not an issue to have potentially
plenty of new nodes (peers) relaying the Tor traffic and decreasing the
efficiency of the Tor circuits due to their upload bandwidth?

>
> Is it chaff, and good as to filling otherwise quiet parts of the net?
> Perhaps. But as in other GPA threads, I think fill traffic may need
> to be actively managed to defeat that, rather than just flooded.

I don't know, I gave some other thoughts, let's take bitcoin that you
quoted, as far as I know it does not have any built-in features to
defeat correlation/tracking but apparently inherently defeats it

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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[grarpamp]

On 6/10/16, Mirimir  wrote:
> But there's still the traffic load. Or maybe, one could consider it as
> chaff. Just sort of, though. Right?

If that's the old "OMG, too much" argument... load re anon overlay nets
may be more like bitcoin's interrelated variables... difficulty, txfees, reward,
watts, price, txrate, etc... they'll slide nicely around to compensate until
some unsolveable fundamental limit is reached. ie:
Private (non-exit/I2P) use of these nets... if they slow, users will start
talking urging more nodes, which they'll readily deploy themselves since
private is low risk and satiates their use case. If the required node count
to support n-million users starts blowing up CPU/RAM, devs will
start getting poked to work on layering that. Even parallel nets
with usage charters may arise by then as a given networks adversary
resistance begets users begets trust begets honoring narrower charter.
Besides, load happens to useful nets, no point trying to stave it off
(nets are anon so staving is a no anyway), and trying to stave makes
the stavers look stupid.
A little education helps too, users will self regulate if they sense that,
"Oh shit, I know this net is used for , but I can't
even get my own  through, so I better ease up on variable ".

Is it chaff, and good as to filling otherwise quiet parts of the net?
Perhaps. But as in other GPA threads, I think fill traffic may need
to be actively managed to defeat that, rather than just flooded.
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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[Jaromil]

On Fri, 10 Jun 2016, grarpamp wrote:

> I2P embedded client is a webfront toy that does not scale.
> Define scale as 100 to 1000+ torrents loaded in the app's
> index for seeding.

true I don't consider the usecase of 100 torrents on seed and/or
download. I must say I fail to imagine its conditions, but lets leave
that aside as its probably my limited interest in understanding such
uses of torrent. your argument on scalability holds.

> > Oh and BTW there is even a C++
> > reimplementation of I2P.
> 
> This is known. Hopefully it ends up being lighter.

of course it does. to me it seems very well written.

> > why "a bit harder"?
> 
> Onioncat 80 is harder in I2P due to I2P address width..

ACK, didn't realize that

> It scales worse than the combo Tor + Onioncat UDP + Transmission,
> plus opentracker forming initial meetup space to prime into PEX /
> DHT.  Which people are also using right now today, entirely within
> Tor, and linked to some other networks via other tunnel interfaces
> which I won't bother to detail here.  See dark docs.

very interesting.
I'll save that for later, haven't read docs on the matter yet.

> > linked gist to conquer a new fronteer to bring more relays to Tor: BS!

> Didn't write it, don't share all its plan either.

ok

> In particular, dislike every clearnet app on the planet having to
> link against library for this net, library for that net, deal with
> Tor's stupid lack of anything but TCP transport, talk socks5, not be
> peertopeer endtoend bidirectional, etc over these darknets.  Leads
> to social balkanization and one-net specific apps like each darknet
> creating dinky little private tools like Snark.

> Not knocking i2p / snark, knocking lack of vision and cooperation to
> make apps interoperable across many darknets at once.

there is a tradeoff to this. Tor's popularity makes it an obvious
target and we are mostly loosing this arms-race to law-enforcement
monitoring, which is full-on. not sure how hard will be to detect
torrents, but the call for more relays is admittedly useful. however
that may be just me, yet I doubt, I'm so perverted to prefer, whenever
possible, dinky little private networks that are different and serve
different contexts. My dream is a sort of codified scrambling layer
a'la Vecna's sniffjoke. Not scalable indeed.  But who needs big
amounts of data to travel on P2P, really? these are different
usecases.

> As important as competitive race, is inclusion.
> Which yields faster adoption.

IMHO to be really in the dark one should also not be so popular.. but
OK I get clearly Tor is an attempt at a different strategy.

this would be an interesting conversation but I'm not capable to
elaborate further via email now. I think you get what I mean. 

I recommend keeping an eye on naif's posts, he often provides good
hints on where law-enforcement is at with the... counter tor-rorism
;^)

> Similar to how the subject line is yielding faster adoption
> among some percent of the 100M+ torrenters out there.

they'll provide a boost, but it won't stay unchallenged for long.

> > direction of best implementations and there is no doubt that I2P
> > is the best for torrents.
>
> Subjective statement.
> Best you can do is put them all in a comparison table.

you are right such a study is missing

ciao

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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[grarpamp]

On 6/10/16, Jaromil  wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Jun 2016, grarpamp wrote:
>>
> FTR there are I2P plugins for a vast range of external clients and
> even an embedded new client.

I2P embedded client is a webfront toy that does not scale.
Define scale as 100 to 1000+ torrents loaded in the app's
index for seeding.

> Oh and BTW there is even a C++
> reimplementation of I2P.

This is known. Hopefully it ends up being lighter.

> why "a bit harder"?

Onioncat 80 is harder in I2P due to I2P address width..

There needs to be a better wider more cross darknet
inclusive solution, but as you may know, that's already up
for grabs in a recent former thread you can easily find / participate.

> Please, lets be frank. I2P supports torrenting on its network since
> many years and it works perfectly fine.

As a minimal tool for small users of a few torrents.

It scales worse than the combo Tor + Onioncat UDP + Transmission,
plus opentracker forming initial meetup space to prime into PEX / DHT.
Which people are also using right now today,
entirely within Tor, and linked to some other networks
via other tunnel interfaces which I won't bother to detail here.
See dark docs.

> need for Tor to push more "marketing" to race above "competitors". The

> linked gist to conquer a new fronteer to bring more relays to Tor: BS!

Didn't write it, don't share all its plan either.
In particular, dislike every clearnet app on the planet having to
link against library for this net, library for that net, deal with Tor's
stupid lack of anything but TCP transport, talk socks5, not
be peertopeer endtoend bidirectional, etc over these darknets.
Leads to social balkanization and one-net specific apps like
each darknet creating dinky little private tools like Snark.

Not knocking i2p / snark, knocking lack of vision and cooperation
to make apps interoperable across many darknets at once.

As important as competitive race, is inclusion.
Which yields faster adoption.

Similar to how the subject line is yielding faster adoption
among some percent of the 100M+ torrenters out there.

> direction of best implementations and there is no doubt that I2P is
> the best for torrents.

Subjective statement.
Best you can do is put them all in a comparison table.
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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[Mirimir]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 06/10/2016 06:51 PM, grarpamp wrote:
> On 6/10/16, Aymeric Vitte  wrote:
>> [stuff]
> 
> The OP subject is that - major bt indexes are now operating as 
> onions.
> 
> Though those indexed torrents specify clearnet trackers, there are 
> also now darknet trackers and users connecting to them and sharing 
> among themselves with their favorite udp enable bt apps by using 
> onioncat. No hacks or other software needed.

Yes, very cool!

But there's still the traffic load. Or maybe, one could consider it as
chaff. Just sort of, though. Right?

> Thanks for the various subthread though.


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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[grarpamp]

On 6/10/16, Aymeric Vitte  wrote:
> [stuff]

The OP subject is that
- major bt indexes are now operating as onions.

Though those indexed torrents specify clearnet trackers,
there are also now darknet trackers and users
connecting to them and sharing among themselves
with their favorite udp enable bt apps by using onioncat.
No hacks or other software needed.

Thanks for the various subthread though.
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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[Lara]

Jaromil:
> To my eyes and those of many others,

So you are studdenly a whole forum.

> Tor would be much more credible if it would acknowledge and respect
> boundaries.

Are you aware that 'Tor' is not a person?
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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[Jaromil]

On Fri, 10 Jun 2016, grarpamp wrote:

> BT client of choice. Similarly though a bit harder within I2P etc.

FTR there are I2P plugins for a vast range of external clients and
even an embedded new client. Oh and BTW there is even a C++
reimplementation of I2P.

why "a bit harder"? look this is what really sets me off in Tor: the
posture of it being an "easy solution" to everything.

Please, lets be frank. I2P supports torrenting on its network since
many years and it works perfectly fine. Beyond that nice, there is no
need for Tor to push more "marketing" to race above "competitors". The
mainstream battle is already won, if there was any. The vision on the
linked gist to conquer a new fronteer to bring more relays to Tor: BS!

To my eyes and those of many others, Tor would be much more credible
if it would acknowledge and respect boundaries. There are
implementations out there that are way less... "institutionalized" and
work perfectly fine for specific uses. Such niches shouldn't be up for
grabs whenever it comes handy, we shouldn't ignore specialized
implementations even if they aren't marketed as Tor. Centralizing all
in one network doesn't do good to anyone.

So now, because of torrenting, is I2P the next Tor? I don't think so.
But I think it would be honest for us to point out people in the
direction of best implementations and there is no doubt that I2P is
the best for torrents.

Hype, marketing and competitive behaviour has never done any good to
F/OSS projects and less than ever to crypto projects, IMHO. and I know
you aren't a shiller grarpamp, hoping you don't take it personal.

ciao

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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[Aymeric Vitte]

Le 10/06/2016 à 09:49, grarpamp a écrit :
> On 6/9/16, Aymeric Vitte  wrote:
>> I don't care at all what you think about "my stuff"
> Nor do I care to purchase clearnet tools or see people
> spammed for it. Clearnet is noninteresting fossil.

Purchase? Where did you see that we propose something to purchase?

Our only "clearnet" activity is related to protect the bt users
(https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live), and we indeed sell the dynamic
blocklist for an exaggerated price of 10E/year, the goal being to
increase our processing capabilities/servers and possibly intersect the
lists from different places to make it the shortest possible

Spam? So I should not be talking about my stuff?

>> wrong appreciation/description of it,
> Stuff, model, same diff. I've appreciated the
> description of what it is and how its used.
> Peersm clients interact BT to clearnet to
> shuffle into browserland. Don't care about
> such clearnet use, whether optional or not.
>
> The subject says "entirely within anonymous overlay
> nets", that means ZERO interaction with clearnet,
> other than obviously the overlay itself.

You are reducing the concepts to something marginal. Peersm (Peer Shared
Mesh technology) are global concepts not only used for file sharing
(please see https://github.com/Ayms/node-Tor#convergence, it's used too
by other people like crypto currency projects) that have nothing to do
with clearnet

In the case of the file sharing project there is indeed a "clearnet"
bridge to the bt network, which is optional and supposed to be temporary
because as you know starting a p2p network with nothing inside just
leads to a p2p network without peers, so a non p2p network or easy to
defeat/control

>> I was not referring to this only
>> Apparently you are trying to revive some old concepts that just can't
>> work with bittorrent
> Suggest you define "old concepts" and "newer projects"
> with links.

I think there has been enough discussion about running bt over Tor or
imagining some uses combined with hidden services. If the idea is to use
the real Tor network it will never work, if the idea is to build a
separate one (like Peersm) then it might work, assuming that you of
course do not reuse the bt protocol (or you might end up with
https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live#deanonymizing-the-vpn-peers , yes
you will dislike it again, undisclosed for now) and probably give up
with the hidden services idea replacing it by something else (like Peersm)


>> "Which is why bittorrent is moving into the overlays", please clarify
>> what you mean
>> why you posted this
> Already did.
>
>> why popcorn time shows up here
> Some people think popcorn time is the only bittorrent app,
> and that where it appears is relavent. I don't.

Sorry, reasking the question, if you wanted to highlight some
significant changes showing that bt is moving to anonymous stuff then I
am really curious to know what it is, coming back to popcorn time some
forks have apparently some ideas to integrate node-Tor but as far as I
know that's only for application/code/API/updates retrieval (and
node-Tor is not open source for now, except the first commit, but we
make exceptions sometimes when people come to us with non
aggressive/dubious thoughts and when we have time to handle it:
http://internetofcoins.org/blog/internet-of-coins-participates-in-peer-shared-mesh-technology)

>
>> Le 09/06/2016 à 18:21, grarpamp a écrit :
>>> On 6/9/16, Aymeric Vitte  wrote:
 Missing something here or why do you post those old links without
 mentioning newer projects?
>>> Some of your stuff depends on clearnet peers / services, I see no
>>> need for that in the new old world of anonymous overlay networks.
>>> Some of your stuff is commercial, for clearnet no less, spammed
>>> out in every message you send. I see no need for that either.
>>>
>>> As in the subject "entirely within".
>>> As in the body "just a teaser".
>> --
>> Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: http://peersm.com/getblocklist
>> Check the 10 M passwords list: http://peersm.com/findmyass
>> Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.org
>> Peersm : http://www.peersm.com
>> torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live
>> node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor
>> GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms
>>
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>>

-- 
Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: http://peersm.com/getblocklist
Check the 10 M passwords list: http://peersm.com/findmyass
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.org
Peersm : http://www.peersm.com
torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live
node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor
GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms

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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[Flipchan]

Well like he says u cant proxy bittorrent traffic through tor cuz its udp

grarpamp  skrev: (9 juni 2016 06:52:35 CEST)
>First come the clearnet indexes...
>
># kickass torrents
>http://lsuzvpko6w6hzpnn.onion/
># the pirate bay
>http://uj3wazyk5u4hnvtk.onion/
># rutor
>http://rutorc6mqdinc4cz.onion/
># btdigg
>http://btdigg63cdjmmmqj.onion/
># torrents md
>http://tmdwwwebwyuuqepd.onion/
># demonoid
>http://demonhkzoijsvvui.onion/
>
># Putting the "Tor" back in Torrent
>https://gist.github.com/obvio171/addb26214a8c159f84a8
>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8022341
>
># For DHT, PEX, UDP
>https://www.onioncat.org/
>
>Just a teaser of what's already out there...
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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[grarpamp]

On 6/9/16, Sean Lynch  wrote:
> Code, or it didn't happen. We have ideas up the wazoo. What we lack are
> practical, usable implementations. I would really love to see this, but
> there are any number of people who have already figured this out on their
> own and don't need some non-programmer (I'm assuming, since this appears to
> be just an idea and not even a design doc being put out for review) telling
> them what they need to do.

Popcorn time aside, yes people have figured out that they can
today practicably usably entirely BT within Tor with onioncat and
BT client of choice. Similarly though a bit harder within I2P etc.
If you don't understand that onion = IPv6 there, then people
need to follow and read the prior onioncat link. In that case
it's not necessary to hack apps (PT) to understand onion
and special proxy method into tor or whatever overlay net.
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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[grarpamp]

On 6/9/16, Aymeric Vitte  wrote:
> I don't care at all what you think about "my stuff"

Nor do I care to purchase clearnet tools or see people
spammed for it. Clearnet is noninteresting fossil.

> wrong appreciation/description of it,

Stuff, model, same diff. I've appreciated the
description of what it is and how its used.
Peersm clients interact BT to clearnet to
shuffle into browserland. Don't care about
such clearnet use, whether optional or not.

The subject says "entirely within anonymous overlay
nets", that means ZERO interaction with clearnet,
other than obviously the overlay itself.

> I was not referring to this only
> Apparently you are trying to revive some old concepts that just can't
> work with bittorrent

Suggest you define "old concepts" and "newer projects"
with links.

> "Which is why bittorrent is moving into the overlays", please clarify
> what you mean
> why you posted this

Already did.

> why popcorn time shows up here

Some people think popcorn time is the only bittorrent app,
and that where it appears is relavent. I don't.


> Le 09/06/2016 à 18:21, grarpamp a écrit :
>> On 6/9/16, Aymeric Vitte  wrote:
>>> Missing something here or why do you post those old links without
>>> mentioning newer projects?
>> Some of your stuff depends on clearnet peers / services, I see no
>> need for that in the new old world of anonymous overlay networks.
>> Some of your stuff is commercial, for clearnet no less, spammed
>> out in every message you send. I see no need for that either.
>>
>> As in the subject "entirely within".
>> As in the body "just a teaser".
>
> --
> Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: http://peersm.com/getblocklist
> Check the 10 M passwords list: http://peersm.com/findmyass
> Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.org
> Peersm : http://www.peersm.com
> torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live
> node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor
> GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms
>
> --
> tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org
> To unsubscribe or change other settings go to
> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
>
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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[Aymeric Vitte]

I don't care at all what you think about "my stuff" and your completely
wrong appreciation/description of it, I was not referring to this only

Apparently you are trying to revive some old concepts that just can't
work with bittorrent

"Which is why bittorrent is moving into the overlays", please clarify
what you mean, why popcorn time shows up here, why you posted this

Le 09/06/2016 à 18:21, grarpamp a écrit :
> On 6/9/16, Aymeric Vitte  wrote:
>> Missing something here or why do you post those old links without
>> mentioning newer projects?
> Some of your stuff depends on clearnet peers / services, I see no
> need for that in the new old world of anonymous overlay networks.
> Some of your stuff is commercial, for clearnet no less, spammed
> out in every message you send. I see no need for that either.
>
> As in the subject "entirely within".
> As in the body "just a teaser".

-- 
Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: http://peersm.com/getblocklist
Check the 10 M passwords list: http://peersm.com/findmyass
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.org
Peersm : http://www.peersm.com
torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live
node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor
GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms

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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[Sean Lynch]

On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 9:52 PM grarpamp  wrote:
[...]

> # Putting the "Tor" back in Torrent
> https://gist.github.com/obvio171/addb26214a8c159f84a8
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8022341


Code, or it didn't happen. We have ideas up the wazoo. What we lack are
practical, usable implementations. I would really love to see this, but
there are any number of people who have already figured this out on their
own and don't need some non-programmer (I'm assuming, since this appears to
be just an idea and not even a design doc being put out for review) telling
them what they need to do.
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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[grarpamp]

On 6/9/16, Jonathan Wilkes  wrote:
> The problem is getting the software in the first place.
> Popcorn Time #1 got bullied off the web, then sprouted
> two forks, neither of which could keep a stable url.
> So you better not have a single hitch in your web server. Otherwise that
> will be the first thing to go, and you'll end
> up wasting the rest of your development time playing
> cat-and-mouse across dns, onion addys, etc.

You missing greater part of the subject and context...
Competent services and users can't be bullied off of
anonymous overlay networks by anyone except perhaps
GPA's that have nothing better to do. Clearnet is a joke
compared to that general caveat. Which is why bittorrent
is moving into the overlays... yes, they're tired of wasting
their time with bullies and they have better things to do,
including building and using stable, resistant, systems.
That's just ops, is not giving up, but continuing to better
advancing any of their philosophical ideas on piratepartiet,
privacy, etc.
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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[grarpamp]

On 6/9/16, Aymeric Vitte  wrote:
> Missing something here or why do you post those old links without
> mentioning newer projects?

Some of your stuff depends on clearnet peers / services, I see no
need for that in the new old world of anonymous overlay networks.
Some of your stuff is commercial, for clearnet no less, spammed
out in every message you send. I see no need for that either.

As in the subject "entirely within".
As in the body "just a teaser".
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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[Aymeric Vitte]

Le 09/06/2016 à 06:52, grarpamp a écrit :
> # Putting the "Tor" back in Torrent
> https://gist.github.com/obvio171/addb26214a8c159f84a8
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8022341

Missing something here or why do you post those old links without
mentioning newer projects?

-- 
Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: http://peersm.com/getblocklist
Check the 10 M passwords list: http://peersm.com/findmyass
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.org
Peersm : http://www.peersm.com
torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live
node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor
GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms

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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Thu, Jun 09, 2016 at 12:52:35AM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> First come the clearnet indexes...
> 
> # kickass torrents
...

Before I blinmked I read that as "first they came for the clearnet
torrents" as a riff on
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

Might be topical at this moment:

First they came for the Bulletin Boards,
and I did not speak out, for I had no need of gratis files.

Then they came for the Usenet,
and I did not speak out, for I had no need of wildly differing opinions.

Then they came for the time shifters and file sharers,
and I did not speak out, for I had no need of others files.

Then they came for the IRC,
and it still survives so still I have no need to speak out.

Then they came for the world wide web,
and I certainly did not speak out, for I had no need of porn.

Then they came for the napster, gnutella, freenet and edonkey,
and still I did not speak out, for I had no need of copyright violating
culture sharers.

Then they came for the clearnet torrents,
and I did not speak out, for I'm busy paying my mortgage and watching footy.

Then they came for the darknet,
and I did not speak out, for I had no need of whistleblowing.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak up for me.



With credits to the history of filesharing,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_sharing_timeline


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Re: [tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[Jonathan Wilkes]

> # Putting the "Tor" back in Torrent
https://gist.github.com/obvio171/addb26214a8c159f84a8
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8022341


The problem is getting the software in the first place.  
Popcorn Time #1 got bullied off the web, then sprouted 
two forks, neither of which could keep a stable url.
So you better not have a single hitch in your web server. Otherwise that will 
be the first thing to go, and you'll end 
up wasting the rest of your development time playing 
cat-and-mouse across dns, onion addys, etc.

-Jonathan
  
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[tor-talk] Bittorrent starting to move entirely within anonymous overlay nets

[grarpamp]

First come the clearnet indexes...

# kickass torrents
http://lsuzvpko6w6hzpnn.onion/
# the pirate bay
http://uj3wazyk5u4hnvtk.onion/
# rutor
http://rutorc6mqdinc4cz.onion/
# btdigg
http://btdigg63cdjmmmqj.onion/
# torrents md
http://tmdwwwebwyuuqepd.onion/
# demonoid
http://demonhkzoijsvvui.onion/

# Putting the "Tor" back in Torrent
https://gist.github.com/obvio171/addb26214a8c159f84a8
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8022341

# For DHT, PEX, UDP
https://www.onioncat.org/

Just a teaser of what's already out there...
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