Re: [tor-talk] BSD + Tor [was: obfs4proxy / 1024]

[grarpamp]

More BSD+Tor resources...
http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/tor-bsd/

And with some of the BSDs, ie FreeBSD, it's possible,
with some preseeding of key material, to obtain
all install, source, port / package stuff via TLS,
or to verify PKI sigs, thus rogue exits can be somewhat
mitigated against.

Though don't expect any unix or any other
OS to have full traceability and reproducibility
unbroken all the way back to their own source
repo anytime soon :-(
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Re: [tor-talk] BSD + Tor [was: obfs4proxy / 1024]

[grarpamp]

Many of the "official" Linux kernel / distro / community channels
and forums "block tor" too, so any attempted point of general
comparison on that basis to BSD is void. Same goes for Windows
and Mac.

FreeBSD still maintains its first original and "official" means of
"support" on mailing lists, which are not known to filter tor sources.
There's also the handbook, manpages, internet search, etc.

So if you are a BSD user who needs help with BSD, same
as before... do some or all of the following...
- Search the net
- Participate in or ask help questions in any unblocked appropriate
channel, such as perhaps, if FreeBSD, freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org
- Use tor's exit selection features to try to bypass any blocking
- File an OS ticket to alleviate and design out any blocking issues,
send it and any forum thread here for weigh in from more tor users.

lists @ tpo is not the place to lodge OS "feedback",
the OS sites are. Same for help with the OS itself.

Tor runs fine on the BSDs.
If users are having trouble getting tor itself running fine
on any BSD, tor-talk might be able to help.
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Re: [tor-talk] BSD + Tor [was: obfs4proxy / 1024]

[thelamalurker]

On 15/04/18 21:56, George wrote:
> And much more explicitly than with, say, the Linux scene, in BSD land if
> you want something done, you are expected to do it, and not request it.
This is not for me it's for you. You want Tor users to use FreeBSD, this
is my feedback.

Blanket banning all Tor exits from accessing your *official* support
forum might piss off Tor users who took your advice to install FreeBSD
and now have difficulty getting help.

What you do with this feedback is up to you.
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Re: [tor-talk] BSD + Tor [was: obfs4proxy / 1024]

[George]

thelamalurker:
> On 13/04/18 19:20, George wrote:
>> It doesn't seem consistently blocked from my angle. I can access over
>> Tor, even without javascript enabled, but on occasion it is blocked.
>> It's possible there's dynamic blocking of specific exits.
> It has always been blocked everytime I have tried over the years.

grarpamp replied usefully to that.

> 
>> But quite honestly, we should all figure out how to directly convince
>> www providers that they shouldn't block all Tor. Expressing it here does
>> little.
> Dude started a thread specifically to shill FreeBSD to Tor users. At the
> very least it seems appropriate to point out that the FreeBSD project
> doesn't seem to particularly like Tor.
> 

I know enough of the FreeBSD scene (including core and the Foundation)
to say that is not the case.

More on this below.

What some admin(s) do on a forum site isn't necessarily indicative of
the project's attitude.

And much more explicitly than with, say, the Linux scene, in BSD land if
you want something done, you are expected to do it, and not request it.
OpenBSD, in particular, isn't a consumer operating system.

> More optimistically I was hoping that if the original poster is actually
> involved with FreeBSD he might be shamed into talking to the folks
> responsible and attempt to get it fixed.
> 

As with all open-source projects, I do agree getting a better rapport is
important.

How come the Linux distros and *BSD projects aren't all running relays?
What impact might official FreeBSDRelay0 or DebianProject0 have on
legitimizing Tor further?  Or getting all projects to run .onion sites,
including for OS distribution (as some do now, and others are working on)?

> For what it's worth I did really like this talk from BSDCan 2016 about
> improving on the Tor+Linux monoculture.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeQWET79t_Y
> 

Overrated!

In all seriousness, that talk was put in a prime time slot in the
biggest room, and was not only well-attended but very interactive. It
was like an atmosphere that is hard to get if you weren't in the room,
with a significant number of people running relays, answered other
peoples' questions, etc. The speaker's side comments and banter are
indicative of the mood.

It said a lot to me about the attitudes of the *BSD community... I gave
that talk.

g


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Re: [tor-talk] BSD + Tor [was: obfs4proxy / 1024]

[grarpamp]

https://forums.freebsd.org/
Users can reach their forums by finding exits that
work / NEWNYM. They obviously run some form of blocking
system but may not be aware of impacts... especially
of the tor users that want to read and participate there.
They're pretty friendly and open to trying things.
So try finding an exit, signing up and starting a
thread there about the issue, branch it to the
relavant lists for comment, and open a ticket
to further the process into some work.


As to general blocking / access projects that all tor users
can work on developing the actual outreach components of...

https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/projects/WeSupportTor
https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/projects/DontBlockMe
https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-access


As for BSD...
Yes, BSD makes a fine OS whether from server
to desktop to Tor. Anyone who has ever grown
beyond, or wishes to grow beyond, just one OS,
should pick it up and give it a go. And in a land
of Windows and Linux by default, BSD is fun in
part because how well it competes on similar level
while being lesser known and growing quickly. So of
course people are going to advocate for, develop,
and use that.

If new users haven't identified something specific they
need from the former list of actively maintained BSD
projects, OpenBSD and FreeBSD are generally the
ones to look at first.

https://www.openbsd.org/63.html

https://www.freebsd.org/releases/11.1R/announce.html
https://download.freebsd.org/ftp/snapshots/

https://www.dragonflybsd.org/release52/

http://netbsd.org/releases/formal-7/NetBSD-7.1.2.html


There's "Linux From Scratch" for happy penquins too,
this distro won't ever fail you because you are maintainer ;)
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Re: [tor-talk] BSD + Tor [was: obfs4proxy / 1024]

[thelamalurker]

On 13/04/18 19:20, George wrote:
> It doesn't seem consistently blocked from my angle. I can access over
> Tor, even without javascript enabled, but on occasion it is blocked.
> It's possible there's dynamic blocking of specific exits.
It has always been blocked everytime I have tried over the years.

> But quite honestly, we should all figure out how to directly convince
> www providers that they shouldn't block all Tor. Expressing it here does
> little.
Dude started a thread specifically to shill FreeBSD to Tor users. At the
very least it seems appropriate to point out that the FreeBSD project
doesn't seem to particularly like Tor.

More optimistically I was hoping that if the original poster is actually
involved with FreeBSD he might be shamed into talking to the folks
responsible and attempt to get it fixed.

For what it's worth I did really like this talk from BSDCan 2016 about
improving on the Tor+Linux monoculture.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeQWET79t_Y

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Re: [tor-talk] BSD + Tor [was: obfs4proxy / 1024]

[George]

George:
> lama the:

resending with correct subject line...

>> Are you aware that the FreeBSD project indiscriminately block all Tor
>> users from their official forums? Not even read access. This is a
>> problem because the forums are a vital source of help and solutions
>> to problems. Why do you block even read access if not to send a very
>> aggressive message *against* Tor users? https://forums.freebsd.org/
> 
> 
> It doesn't seem consistently blocked from my angle. I can access over
> Tor, even without javascript enabled, but on occasion it is blocked.
> It's possible there's dynamic blocking of specific exits.
> 
> But quite honestly, we should all figure out how to directly convince
> www providers that they shouldn't block all Tor. Expressing it here does
> little.  Blocking Tor IPs for www access tends to be a blunt "security
> measure" ignorant of the costs, and that's a reality we have to contend
> with.
> 
> Maybe you reach out to the forum hosters, and when I get a chance, I can
> ping my contacts.
> 
> more comments inline.
> 
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 11:28 AM, grarpamp 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> BSD's are a family, with FreeBSD the largest userbase. It's has
>>> been around in essentially the same admin form for 25+ years...
>>> base = kernel + userland, then apps.
>>>
>>> https://www.freebsd.org/releases/11.1R/announce.html 
>>> https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ 
>>> https://download.freebsd.org/ftp/releases/ISO-IMAGES/11.1/
>>>
>>> mini-memstick found above can be written to USB and directly used
>>> as a "live" system without "installing" it. Write it to a 16G USB,
>>> boot it, add some more ZFS partitions and customize it from there. 
>>> Or "install" it to a second USB which is also "live".
>>>
>>> They don't preload the base images with their own idea of app sets,
>>> in fact /usr/local is empty for you to choose what you want... X,
>>> window manager, shells, browser, MUA, etc.
>>>
> 
> yes. Take a quick browse at hier(7), likely the most underread manual
> page on every operating system.  /usr/local is only for installed ports
> and packages not in the base system.
> 
> https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=hier=0=0=FreeBSD+11.1-RELEASE+and+Ports=default=html
> 
>>> https://www.freebsd.org/ports
>>>
>>> There's around 31,000 prebuilt application packages. Choose your
>>> list and 'pkg install ' each one.
>>>
>>> The latest versions of all those mentioned are in there...
>>>
>>> Tor 0.3.2.10 OpenVPN 2.4.5 OpenJDK 8.162.12 I2P 0.9.33 Freenet -
>>> Not yet, but as with I2P, grabbing the jar and following the docs
>>> is easy enough.
> 
> OnionShare is in the pipeline, and it needs a bump.
> 
> https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=225539
> 
> (FreeBSD Bugzilla not blocking Tor...)
> 
>>>
>>> Also mentioned was 'kenel hardening', 'secure OS', and 'slick'... a
>>> bit meaningless without further explicit example, use case, threat
>>> model. People can join HardenedBSD, TrustedBSD, create new, or use
>>> as is after seeing what's there.
>>>
>>> OpenBSD is pretty awesome too.
>>>
> 
> Those "three BSDs" are different. TrustedBSD is an old security focused
> research project that was (mostly) integrated into FreeBSD base.
> 
>>> With OPNsense, TrueOS and FreeNAS, DragonflyBSD, NetBSD, NAS4Free
>>> making up most of the rest of the current general and specific use
>>> space you can search out.
>>>
> 
> DragonFly BSD is an actual BSD which forked from FreeBSD a long while
> back, and NetBSD was the first BSD out of Berkeley Unix along with
> FreeBSD.  The other projects use a BSD as their base to provide specific
> tools.
> 
>>> Yes one problem with "linux" is you have to learn both the way of
>>> linux *and* the way of whichever distro on top is pulling the
>>> fragmented bazaar together, then maybe discover the first random
>>> distro out of dozens is not a good fit, or the distro guts and
>>> remodels itself on a whim, then take a shot at another random
>>> distro... a lot of time wasted on the distro layer alone. Do that
>>> problem two or three times and were probably better off running
>>> 'Linux From Scratch'.
>>>
>>> There's also people doing some TorBSD.org BSD + Tor / TBB project
>>> you could try / join.
>>>
> 
> https://www.torbsd.org/ and we have a wiki at https://wiki.torbsd.org
> 
>>> Even Whonix.
> 
> g
> 


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Re: [tor-talk] BSD + Tor [was: obfs4proxy / 1024]

[lama the]

Are you aware that the FreeBSD project indiscriminately block all Tor users
from their official forums? Not even read access.
This is a problem because the forums are a vital source of help and
solutions to problems.
Why do you block even read access if not to send a very aggressive message
*against* Tor users?
https://forums.freebsd.org/

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 11:28 AM, grarpamp  wrote:

> BSD's are a family, with FreeBSD the largest userbase.
> It's has been around in essentially the same admin
> form for 25+ years... base = kernel + userland, then apps.
>
> https://www.freebsd.org/releases/11.1R/announce.html
> https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/
> https://download.freebsd.org/ftp/releases/ISO-IMAGES/11.1/
>
> mini-memstick found above can be written to USB and
> directly used as a "live" system without "installing" it.
> Write it to a 16G USB, boot it, add some more
> ZFS partitions and customize it from there.
> Or "install" it to a second USB which is also "live".
>
> They don't preload the base images with their
> own idea of app sets, in fact /usr/local is empty
> for you to choose what you want... X, window manager,
> shells, browser, MUA, etc.
>
> https://www.freebsd.org/ports
>
> There's around 31,000 prebuilt application packages.
> Choose your list and 'pkg install '
> each one.
>
> The latest versions of all those mentioned are in there...
>
> Tor 0.3.2.10
> OpenVPN 2.4.5
> OpenJDK 8.162.12
> I2P 0.9.33
> Freenet - Not yet, but as with I2P, grabbing the jar
> and following the docs is easy enough.
>
> Also mentioned was 'kenel hardening', 'secure OS',
> and 'slick'... a bit meaningless without further
> explicit example, use case, threat model.
> People can join HardenedBSD, TrustedBSD,
> create new, or use as is after seeing what's there.
>
> OpenBSD is pretty awesome too.
>
> With OPNsense, TrueOS and FreeNAS, DragonflyBSD,
> NetBSD, NAS4Free making up most of the rest of the
> current general and specific use space you can search out.
>
> Yes one problem with "linux" is you have to learn both the
> way of linux *and* the way of whichever distro on top is
> pulling the fragmented bazaar together, then maybe discover
> the first random distro out of dozens is not a good fit,
> or the distro guts and remodels itself on a whim, then take
> a shot at another random distro... a lot of time wasted on
> the distro layer alone. Do that problem two or three times
> and were probably better off running 'Linux From Scratch'.
>
> There's also people doing some TorBSD.org
> BSD + Tor / TBB project you could try / join.
>
> Even Whonix.
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