Re: [Toybox] Alternatives to github?
> (I've been thinking of putting it on landley.net but dreamhost's docs > about putting anything there are all "you can store your website in > a .git repo, and then mirror your website repo to github!" That's not > what I'm trying to do, thanks. Can I get a cgit instance running on > landley.net/git/toybox or similar? Sigh, I may have to host my own > server at some point. Really dowanna do that, but I miss the control > of back when I _did_ do that and the "send us a raspbery pi" folks > don't seem too crazy...) I have a TODO item for finding an alternative to github, and I have my own server in Europe. Among other things it's one of the mirrors for Devuan packages and ISOs. I've not played with cgit before, and I note it's in the Devuan package repo, so I might install it and give it a go. I'm happy to share Rob. -- A big old stinking pile of genius that no one wants coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world. ___ Toybox mailing list Toybox@lists.landley.net http://lists.landley.net/listinfo.cgi/toybox-landley.net
Re: [Toybox] Alternatives to github?
On 1/25/19 5:07 AM, Reverend Homer wrote: > Hi, > > Take a look at the new project sr.ht: https://lwn.net/Articles/775963/ > Maybe you'll find it useful. Elliott pointed out that github's whitelisted through the great firewall of china, so I should probably keep a mirror there. But having a second mirror wouldn't be a bad thing. (I've been thinking of putting it on landley.net but dreamhost's docs about putting anything there are all "you can store your website in a .git repo, and then mirror your website repo to github!" That's not what I'm trying to do, thanks. Can I get a cgit instance running on landley.net/git/toybox or similar? Sigh, I may have to host my own server at some point. Really dowanna do that, but I miss the control of back when I _did_ do that and the "send us a raspbery pi" folks don't seem too crazy...) Rob ___ Toybox mailing list Toybox@lists.landley.net http://lists.landley.net/listinfo.cgi/toybox-landley.net
Re: [Toybox] Alternatives to github?
Hi, Take a look at the new project sr.ht: https://lwn.net/Articles/775963/ Maybe you'll find it useful. R.H. On 04/06/2018 04:06, Rob Landley wrote: If Microsoft acquires github, where should I publish releases instead? Rob ___ Toybox mailing list Toybox@lists.landley.net http://lists.landley.net/listinfo.cgi/toybox-landley.net ___ Toybox mailing list Toybox@lists.landley.net http://lists.landley.net/listinfo.cgi/toybox-landley.net
Re: [Toybox] Alternatives to github?
Hey, someone sent me this thread and I thought I'd throw in my two cents on the subject of GitHub alternatives. I am working on a new project hosting site called sr.ht: https://sr.ht I think the sr.ht approach lines up closely with what you're aiming for on this project. It provides: - Repository hosting - Bug tracking - KVM-based build automation - Mailing lists I just got the mailing lists stood up this weekend, actually, here's an example archive: https://lists.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/sr.ht-dev Everything is still WIP but I'd be happy to share an alpha account with anyone involved in Toybox and work together to build something suited to your needs. Shoot me an email off-list for an invite link. -- Drew DeVault ___ Toybox mailing list Toybox@lists.landley.net http://lists.landley.net/listinfo.cgi/toybox-landley.net
Re: [Toybox] Alternatives to github?
On 06/05/2018 11:56 AM, enh wrote: > one thing to bear in mind: i've heard from folks at chinese OEMs that > thanks to the great firewall, if something's not on github, it's > basically inaccessible to them. Ok, good point. Although I have a hard time staying current here: 2013: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_GitHub#Attack 2015: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/massive-denial-of-service-attack-on-github-tied-to-chinese-government/ 2016: https://qz.com/718465/chinas-fierce-censors-try-a-new-tactic-with-github-asking-nicely/ > they're more likely to be able to look > at some random's claimed github _fork_ of AOSP than AOSP itself, for > example :-/ Like https://github.com/LineageOS/android_external_toybox you mean? :) I'm fine mirroring to more than one location and I _expect_ other people to, I'm just uncomfortable having a microsoft-developed property be an important part of my process (let alone a single point of failure). I'm not comfortable with my web page pointing at microsoft as the only download location for something I wrote, that's just asking for trouble. (And I'd _just_ started paying more attention to github's non-mirroring aspects in the past few weeks, because $DAYJOB has one of them corporate instances I've been using a lot. I even logged in and closed several of the old issues and pull requests I'd already dealt with via email, thinking "ok, properly engage with this community"... and the acquisition stopped that cold.) I'm back in Austin next week for vacation, and would LIKE to spend that time on coding backlog rather than sysadmin stuff, so I'll probably punt on this for now. But next release (I.E. whenever the 4.18 kernel comes out and I go "has it been 3 months already?") I really want to have some other repo for the web page to reference... Rob ___ Toybox mailing list Toybox@lists.landley.net http://lists.landley.net/listinfo.cgi/toybox-landley.net
Re: [Toybox] Alternatives to github?
Even if off topic, please do post again when you get the context behind Microsoft's acquisitions going sour. I would love to read it. Until then, I need to migrate my own stuff to GitLab. GH On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 1:12 PM, Rob Landley wrote: > On 06/05/2018 05:34 AM, Reverend Homer wrote:> On 05/06/18 08:34, Rob > Landley wrote: > >> On 06/04/2018 01:04 AM, Reverend Homer wrote: > >>> gitlab? cgit @ landley.net? > >> > >> Maybe gitlab. > > > > I take it back. Gitlab is hosted at Microsoft Azure. > > Eh, hosted isn't the same as owned by. > > Running on commodity linux containers in the azure cloud probably isn't > noticeably worse than running on commodity rackmount whiteboxes in some > nameless > low-bidder data center in houston? The point of all that infrastructure is > to be > fungible. (I'd never trust _proprietary_ data to them because I fully > expect > they're snooping the contents of every container for secrets to copy. But > if > it's public stuff that's cryptographically verifiable? They can't do much > worse > than sourceforge...) > > "Owned by microsoft" is a problem because historically every acquisition > microsoft's ever made involved the entire staff of the original company > leaving > and the technology being taken over by bureaucrats, and there's a _reason_ > for > this that requires a lot of context to explain. More than I want to post > on a > technical mailing list for an unrelated project. > > Properly explaining what really worries me about the github acquisition > requires > understanding a business framework I wrote about long ago based on chapter > 12 of > the book "Accidental Empries" mixed with bits of the mythical man-month > and the > innovator's dilemma. It was the most popular series I ever wrote at The > Motley > Fool and I saved a link to an australian author reviewing my article > series for > a german magazine: > > http://landley.net/writing/#3waves > > In 2016 I gave a talk at the Flourish conference on that with updated > material > and so on, and they never posted the video they recorded. I has a sad about > that, I wasn't jetlagged or anything! > > Sigh. Looks like the most recent attempt I did to update the explanation > was in > 2011: > > https://landley.net/notes-2011.html#01-12-2011 > https://landley.net/notes-2011.html#02-12-2011 > https://landley.net/notes-2011.html#04-12-2011 > https://landley.net/notes-2011.html#05-12-2011 > https://landley.net/notes-2011.html#06-12-2011 > > >> <...> > >> I could go on for quite some time (no, seriously, you want 5x this much > >> material? Say the word.) > > > > I'll be glad to read! I found out a lot of interesting stuff from this > > message. > > Sigh. I'm not significantly motivated by dislike of microsoft any more > than I'm > motivated by dislike of facebook, or perl. There was a time I monitored > them > closely as a relevant threat, but that was quite a while ago: > > https://www.fool.com/archive/portfolios/rulemaker/1998/12/ > 21/microsoft-the-overdog-rule-maker-portfolio-decem.aspx > > Burying you in links is easy. The phrase "astroturf" was coined to describe > microsoft's fake PR posing as grass-roots organization (in zdnet I think? > I dug > up the link > http://www.zdnet.com/zdtv/siliconspin/features/story/0, > 3671,2103460,00.html from > http://www.landley.net/writing/mirror/fool/todo/CashKingPort981118.htm > but all > archive.org has for it is archived 404 errors), but if you google for > "microsoft > astroturf" today you get plenty of > http://techrights.org/2009/05/27/ghettoblaster-may-be-microsoft-astroturf/ > https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1143683 > https://gigaom.com/2012/04/26/the-ethics-of-astro-turfing- > sleazy-or-smart-business/ > https://www.prweek.com/article/1236875/pr-technique- > astroturf---grassroots-beware-imitations-grassroots-campaigns-influence- > legislators-popular-effective-public-affairs-people-known-fake-it > and so on. > > There's even a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft > wikipedia > page you could read if you care that much. > > But that's all water under the bridge. IBM used to be evil too, the DEC > Field > Circus" was one of the big early opposition forces against unix... they > don't > matter anymore. > > I have a general interest in computer history and often try to put it > together > into a larger story: > > https://landley.net/notes-2010.html#17-07-2010 > https://landley.net/notes-2010.html#19-07-2010 > > But microsoft is such one-note evil it's not really very interesting. I > moved on > from being annoyed about them to being about the FSF about 15 years ago. > > I'd much rather point you at Steven Levy's book "Hackers" and then say > "now read > Ken Olsen's smithosonian interview for the other half of the story" (which > I > mirrored at http://landley.net/history/mirror/interviews/olsen.html ), or > point > you at all 4 sides of the story of the invention of the 4004 (Ted Hoff the > designer is http://landley.net/history/mirror/inte
Re: [Toybox] Alternatives to github?
On 06/05/2018 05:34 AM, Reverend Homer wrote:> On 05/06/18 08:34, Rob Landley wrote: >> On 06/04/2018 01:04 AM, Reverend Homer wrote: >>> gitlab? cgit @ landley.net? >> >> Maybe gitlab. > > I take it back. Gitlab is hosted at Microsoft Azure. Eh, hosted isn't the same as owned by. Running on commodity linux containers in the azure cloud probably isn't noticeably worse than running on commodity rackmount whiteboxes in some nameless low-bidder data center in houston? The point of all that infrastructure is to be fungible. (I'd never trust _proprietary_ data to them because I fully expect they're snooping the contents of every container for secrets to copy. But if it's public stuff that's cryptographically verifiable? They can't do much worse than sourceforge...) "Owned by microsoft" is a problem because historically every acquisition microsoft's ever made involved the entire staff of the original company leaving and the technology being taken over by bureaucrats, and there's a _reason_ for this that requires a lot of context to explain. More than I want to post on a technical mailing list for an unrelated project. Properly explaining what really worries me about the github acquisition requires understanding a business framework I wrote about long ago based on chapter 12 of the book "Accidental Empries" mixed with bits of the mythical man-month and the innovator's dilemma. It was the most popular series I ever wrote at The Motley Fool and I saved a link to an australian author reviewing my article series for a german magazine: http://landley.net/writing/#3waves In 2016 I gave a talk at the Flourish conference on that with updated material and so on, and they never posted the video they recorded. I has a sad about that, I wasn't jetlagged or anything! Sigh. Looks like the most recent attempt I did to update the explanation was in 2011: https://landley.net/notes-2011.html#01-12-2011 https://landley.net/notes-2011.html#02-12-2011 https://landley.net/notes-2011.html#04-12-2011 https://landley.net/notes-2011.html#05-12-2011 https://landley.net/notes-2011.html#06-12-2011 >> <...> >> I could go on for quite some time (no, seriously, you want 5x this much >> material? Say the word.) > > I'll be glad to read! I found out a lot of interesting stuff from this > message. Sigh. I'm not significantly motivated by dislike of microsoft any more than I'm motivated by dislike of facebook, or perl. There was a time I monitored them closely as a relevant threat, but that was quite a while ago: https://www.fool.com/archive/portfolios/rulemaker/1998/12/21/microsoft-the-overdog-rule-maker-portfolio-decem.aspx Burying you in links is easy. The phrase "astroturf" was coined to describe microsoft's fake PR posing as grass-roots organization (in zdnet I think? I dug up the link http://www.zdnet.com/zdtv/siliconspin/features/story/0,3671,2103460,00.html from http://www.landley.net/writing/mirror/fool/todo/CashKingPort981118.htm but all archive.org has for it is archived 404 errors), but if you google for "microsoft astroturf" today you get plenty of http://techrights.org/2009/05/27/ghettoblaster-may-be-microsoft-astroturf/ https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1143683 https://gigaom.com/2012/04/26/the-ethics-of-astro-turfing-sleazy-or-smart-business/ https://www.prweek.com/article/1236875/pr-technique-astroturf---grassroots-beware-imitations-grassroots-campaigns-influence-legislators-popular-effective-public-affairs-people-known-fake-it and so on. There's even a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft wikipedia page you could read if you care that much. But that's all water under the bridge. IBM used to be evil too, the DEC Field Circus" was one of the big early opposition forces against unix... they don't matter anymore. I have a general interest in computer history and often try to put it together into a larger story: https://landley.net/notes-2010.html#17-07-2010 https://landley.net/notes-2010.html#19-07-2010 But microsoft is such one-note evil it's not really very interesting. I moved on from being annoyed about them to being about the FSF about 15 years ago. I'd much rather point you at Steven Levy's book "Hackers" and then say "now read Ken Olsen's smithosonian interview for the other half of the story" (which I mirrored at http://landley.net/history/mirror/interviews/olsen.html ), or point you at all 4 sides of the story of the invention of the 4004 (Ted Hoff the designer is http://landley.net/history/mirror/intel/Hoff.html Federico Fagin the layout engineer who left to found Zilog is http://landley.net/history/mirror/interviews/Faggin.html their manager Gordon Moore is http://landley.net/history/mirror/interviews/Moore.html and the japanese engineer who was their customer liason at busicom and who some people say was the real brains behind it is http://landley.net/history/mirror/intel/shima.html )... And I need to redo my "rise and fall of copyleft" talk (link to the mp3 of the ohio l
Re: [Toybox] Alternatives to github?
one thing to bear in mind: i've heard from folks at chinese OEMs that thanks to the great firewall, if something's not on github, it's basically inaccessible to them. they're more likely to be able to look at some random's claimed github _fork_ of AOSP than AOSP itself, for example :-/ On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 6:07 PM Rob Landley wrote: > > If Microsoft acquires github, where should I publish releases instead? > > Rob > ___ > Toybox mailing list > Toybox@lists.landley.net > http://lists.landley.net/listinfo.cgi/toybox-landley.net ___ Toybox mailing list Toybox@lists.landley.net http://lists.landley.net/listinfo.cgi/toybox-landley.net
Re: [Toybox] Alternatives to github?
On 05/06/18 08:34, Rob Landley wrote: > On 06/04/2018 01:04 AM, Reverend Homer wrote: >> gitlab? cgit @ landley.net? > > Maybe gitlab. I take it back. Gitlab is hosted at Microsoft Azure. > <...> > I could go on for quite some time (no, seriously, you want 5x this much > material? Say the word.) I'll be glad to read! I found out a lot of interesting stuff from this message. R.H. ___ Toybox mailing list Toybox@lists.landley.net http://lists.landley.net/listinfo.cgi/toybox-landley.net
Re: [Toybox] Alternatives to github?
On 06/04/2018 01:04 AM, Reverend Homer wrote: > gitlab? cgit @ landley.net? Maybe gitlab. Maybe cgit if I can get dreamhost to install it in my container at all cleanly. (It's what kernel.org uses. I can also make puppy eyes at the kernel.org guys and try to get my account there back...) Hosting a git repo isn't a huge deal, it's just annoying sysadmin stuff like mailing lists archives. :) (Heck, I could put the repo at a URL on my website _now_. I did so last night for a bit to check. But I want it web browseable, not just cloneable/pullable...) > Why do you think you couldn't just keep the code at github though? In the short term I could, just like I could write windows code and use facebook, but I don't want to? In the long term, I suspect that any company losing its original business model is unlikely to be a good steward of things it acquires while searching for a new one: https://gizmodo.com/5910223/how-yahoo-killed-flickr-and-lost-the-internet http://fortune.com/2015/01/10/15-years-later-lessons-from-the-failed-aol-time-warner-merger/ Microsoft specifically has a terrible track record here based on structural problems with its culture: https://web.archive.org/web/19991013145536/http://pbs.org:80/cringely/pulpit/pulpit19990826.html That article analyzed its acquisition of hotmail, but that was by no means an isolated case. Microsoft spent a huge chunk of their monopoly revenues on acquisitions over the years and they _never_ got people, just technology: http://landley.net/history/mirror/ms/yrcatalog.shtml I'm aware they got a new CEO 4 years ago, but I don't trust a complete transformation of their corporate culture to have happened in that time period after 40 years of being evil. Microsoft was _built_ on not understanding things like github, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Letter_to_Hobbyists was in 1976. The 1995 antitrust settlement was over stealing stacker's technology and the "cpu tax" licensing: https://www.nytimes.com/1995/06/17/business/appeals-court-reinstates-microsoft-antitrust-settlement.html The 1998 antitrust settlement where they said the could "bundle a ham sandwich", was over a bunch of stuff (violating the 1995 consent decree for one thing, using monopoly leverage to put Novell out of business was another although it was originally on the server side, see http://articles.latimes.com/1996-08-21/business/fi-36294_1_internet-explorer and http://www.landley.net/history/mirror/ms/differences_nt.html), and the there was some fascinating play-by-play coverage in Fortune magazine by Joseph Nocera that's mostly fallen off the web but _wow_ they were slimy: http://archive.fortune.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1998/10/26/249998/index.htm There was strong-arming OEMs not to allow other operating systems to show up in the bootloader even when they were installedon the hardware (this damaged OS/2 on IBM's own hardware, and put BeOS out of business): https://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/02/20/be_inc_sues_microsoft/ Here's an article I wrote almost 20 years ago now back when I was doing stock market investment columns about accounting games they played: https://www.fool.com/archive/portfolios/rulemaker/2000/02/17/why-microsofts-stock-options-scare-me.aspx (Microsoft's investor relations department called my editor and insisted that it wasn't "income" it was "cash inflow". They were furious but couldn't argue with what I'd said on a factual level. A couple years later they caved and changed their policy to award stock instead of options, although in between was the dot-com bust.) Who can forget "windows refund day": http://marc.merlins.org/linux/refundday/ which was related to the "cpu tax" (per-motherboard licensing preventing vendors from selling hardware without windows, if you sold _one_ system without windows the cost of your every copy of windows you sold doubled because you could only get the cheapest price with an absolute blanket license including it on every single machine, and yes this prevented IBM from selling OS/2 on its own Aptivas when Windows 95 came out because microsoft wouldn't let them license Windows 95 at ALL unless it was on every machine including the ones they wanted to put OS/2 on http://www.nwitimes.com/uncategorized/ibm-introduces-aptiva-computer-without-much-publicized/article_9dbae4b8-b6f4-5ad4-9369-574ddfeb4df7.html) and microsoft's perrenial campaign to equate "bare machines" (ones with no OS preinstalled) with piracy because clearly there was no use for them BUT to install a pirated copy of windows (gutting other operating systems was just an innocent side effect, sure). And yes they're still pushing this same marketing line and having journalists fall for it: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-microsoft-emergingmarkets/naked-pcs-lay-bare-microsofts-emerging-markets-problem-idUSKBN0GA0V120140812 Oh, microsoft capturing the 32 bit transition was about http://catb.org/esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.html and https:
Re: [Toybox] Alternatives to github?
gitlab? cgit @ landley.net? Why do you think you couldn't just keep the code at github though? R.H. On 04/06/18 04:06, Rob Landley wrote: > If Microsoft acquires github, where should I publish releases instead? > > Rob > ___ > Toybox mailing list > Toybox@lists.landley.net > http://lists.landley.net/listinfo.cgi/toybox-landley.net > ___ Toybox mailing list Toybox@lists.landley.net http://lists.landley.net/listinfo.cgi/toybox-landley.net
