Re: [translate-pootle] rename and clone language

2012-06-09 Thread Christian PERRIER
Quoting Chris Leonard (cjlhomeaddr...@gmail.com):

These examples are indeed the most common exceptions. Let's add my
experience about them.

 1)
 en, en_US and en_GB are commonly found because
 a) there are a number of distinct spelling differences (orthography)
 that you do not see with Spanish.
 b) the burden of maintaining the translations is actually quite minimal.
 In Gnome, there is even a PERL script that takes a first pass at this
 for you, with pretty good results.

The main problem here is deciding about the *original*
strings. Depending on the maintainer of the software, they're either
en_US, en_GB or, most often en_airport (the same English I'm writing
right now...:-)).

Standardi{z|s}ing on one of both (not to mention en_AU, en_ZA, etc.)
is always a good idea, but requires a quite good knowledge of English,
most often available to native speakers only.

In Debian, we try to standardize on en_US when we can (indeed, when we
have someone reviewing the texts). Not because it's better or
whatever, but mostly because it seems to be the most widely used, so
that requires less modifications. We eve have a debian-l10n-english
mailing list aimed at encouraging eviews of texts, with a few
volunteers trying to help package maitnainers, documentation writers,
our publicity team, etc. to get good texts out.

And, nearly always we don't have any en_GB translation. Probably
because the often very technical texts we have do not require this.


 2)
 zh_CN and zh-TW are in fact quite different, you never see just zh (in
 my experience).   When present, both zh_CN and zh-TW typically get
 well maintained.  Occasionally one will also see zh_HK, but it is less
 common.

Those both are indeed different variations in *written* forms of the
Chinese language*s* (Simplified, used mostly in mainland China and
Traditional used in Taiwan, Hong-Kong, Singapore, etc.). Actually we
should use zh@simplified and zh@traditional (modifiers) rather than zh_CN for
Simplified and zh_TW for Traditional (country variants).

Using country variants instead of modifiers for Chinese is common
practice (we used it in Debian) but actually bad practice as it leaves
people using zh_GK or zh_SG out of the game (they have to add zh_TW as
alternative in their locale settings).


 
 3)
 pt_PT and pt_BR are very frequently found.  I don't know the
 distinctions well, but when present, they both get well maintained.

Yet another difference established by common practice. Indeed,
Brazilian is different enough from Portuguese to nearly warrant its
own ISO code, which would make things better.

Most software use pt.po and pt_BR.po files. A mistake would be using
pt_BR and pt_PT as continental Portuguese is also used in former
Portuguese colonies and there are locales for some of them.


 
 4)
 Occasionally one will see de_DE and de_CH, although much more rarely,
 and generally with much less completeness on de_CH

I've seen very few of these and I often try to discourage them. From
what I heard of German and Swiss fellows, the difference is more is
spoken language than written one.

The same stands for French, where the written language is standardized
over French-speaking countries with few enough variants (the most well
known is the way to say 7x, 8x, 9x numbers, between France and
Belgium/switzerland).


 
 5)
 fa and fa_AF seems to be an important distinction as well (Iranian
 Persian vs Afghani Dari).

I have not enough experience about these. In Debian we have a few
Persian translations and all of them us fa.


Another common variant case is bn_IN and bn_BD. I'm having very hard
times understanding if that's for real reasons of for political
reasons. Unfortunately, politics often enters such things and
everything related to languages and countries becomes sensitive one
day or another.

My last story about this are the two variants of Serbian : ekavian and
ijekavian. I still remember a meeting at last Debian conference (in
Banja Luka, Republika srpska, part of federation of Bosnia and
Herzegovina) where I was dropped into something that was looking like
Dayton negotiations in the 90's, between Serbs from Serbia and Serbs
from Republika Srpska. Both wanted to do their own work and, believe
me, you really don't want to be in the middle of this..:-)

As a result, we now have sr.po translations for Serbianekavian
(the form used in Serbia) and sr@ijekavian for ijekavian (the form
used in the Serb part of Bosnia). My proposal to use sr_BS was
completely ruled out by localsfor political reasons (even though
they are part of Bosnia, they don't feel like this). My proposal to
use bs (Bosnian) which is also existing was also ruled out even
though bs is actually exactly s...@ijekavianbut only used by
people in the muslim part of Bosnia. The conclusion of this meeting
was Welcome to the Balkans.

Interesting game, isn't it?



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Re: [translate-pootle] rename and clone language

2012-06-08 Thread Christian PERRIER
Quoting Michiel Dethmers (mich...@phplist.com):
 
 Hello Everyone
 
 My translators would like to split off Argentinian from Spanish, in
 order to account for the language differences.
 
 I currently have an es language. http://translate.phplist.com/
 
 So, I'd like to rename es to es_ES and clone es to es_AR, so
 that the Argentinians continue on the translation from where es is now.


I would not recommend doing this. At least, leave es as is so that
users with locales for countries that are neither Argentina nor Spain
still have a Spanish translation.

Also, I think this is the best way to waste resources by splitting
work just because people can't agree on a few words and translations
(for Spanish, differences are really minimal and most l10n teams I
know have been able to find compromises to avoid fights about
computador vs. ordenador). At least, for French, I always fight
very hard when I find PO files names fr_CA, fr_CH and *also* fr_FR.

So, as a short conclusion:
- try to avoid the split
- if you can't, don't change es to es_ES



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[translate-pootle] translate-toolkit: Debian bug #585834

2011-04-16 Thread Christian PERRIER
May one of the upstream authors for TT look at this Debian bug :
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=585834 ?

It requests checking that TT is still working with python-iniparse 0.4
that broke an API. I'm not really in position to test this, I'm
afraid.



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Re: [translate-pootle] Language Alphabets and ISO 3066 codes

2010-03-08 Thread Christian PERRIER
Quoting Amos Jeffries (squ...@treenet.co.nz):

 Problem 1) Alphabets versus Languages
  I've hit it with Serbian. They use two different alphabets Latin and
 Cyrillic. But only one language.
  Distinguished by two codes sr-Latn and sr-Cyrl. The same issue occurs in
 Chinese Hans/Hant/Ming/* and has been hacked around previously by appending
 the specific ISO-3166 country code where its most frequently needed.
 
  What I'm hoping for is to use the ISO-3066 alphabet codes as part of the
 language tag somewhere.


This is indeed the first time I hear about ISO-3066.

As one of the iso-codes maintainers, I know about ISO-15924, which is
meant to be a standard for script names. We include it in the package
since October 2007. Reference is http://unicode.org/iso15924/

Example entry in the XML file we provide:

iso_15924_entry
alpha_4_code=Cyrl
numeric_code=220
name=Cyrillic /
iso_15924_entry
alpha_4_code=Cyrs
numeric_code=221
name=Cyrillic (Old Church Slavonic variant) /
.../...
iso_15924_entry
alpha_4_code=Latn
numeric_code=215
name=Latin /


These examples use your own example. Note that the alpha4 code is
indeed the same.

I'd say that ISO-15924 seems to be an evolution of 3066 or something
like this.

WRT your general message, I agree that using ISO 15924 codes in locale
names would be a great progress over the current hacks implemented in
various ways (zh_CN vs. zh_TW as a hack between Simplified and
Traditional Chineseor Hans vs. Hant, or variants for Serbian,
or probably others I don't know about).


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Re: [translate-pootle] French translation is complete

2009-12-14 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting F Wolff (frie...@translate.org.za):

  When fixinv endpunc, I noticed that interrogative sentences are
  mentioned to be wrong as they end with  ? while English ends with
  ?. *This* is normal in French as question marks are preceded by a
  (non-breaking) space. So, if there's an exception system somewhere,
  this should be added to it.
  
  The same stands for : translated as  :
 
 Yes, the tests currently test for [space]? instead of [nbsp]? as it
 should. I have a patch to do the right thing, but I'm not yet sure about
 the consequences, so I've been postponing this.  How often will
 complaining about [space]? actually help a user to fix towards
 [nbsp]? rather than just ? ?   Do all French translators know how to
 type nbsp correctly while translating?

Hmm, tricky. Probably not (nbsp is IIRC traditionnally hard to type in
Windoze, for instance). The best would be testing for
(space]|[nbsp])? if that's possible.

  PS: I fixed endpunc but I have doubts whether original strings are
  really consistent wrt this..:-)
 
 If you find any inconsistencies, please report that.  Several issues
 were corrected in the English before the string freeze, but I realise
 there might still be a few small issues left that we'll want to fix
 soon.

I should go over all these strings, of course. In short, I generally
put a sentence dot for each sentence, that is each string that
includes a verb. Some original strings don't have one.

  I also don't understand a few simplecaps tests such as the error
  reported against Calculating translation statistics, this will take a
  few minutes. I seems this is because I have two sentences while
  English has only one.
 
 Explanations of all the tests are here:
 http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/toolkit/pofilter_tests
 
 The case you mention has bad English - it should have been two
 sentences, so I'm sure your translation is better.

Yes, that's apparently a quite common mistake in software texts
(mostly progress bars): Doing foo, this will barwhile Doing
foo should be a sentence per se, ending with 




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[translate-pootle] French translation is complete

2009-12-12 Thread Christian Perrier

The French translation of Pootle is now complete on
pootle.locamotion.org

Of course, reviews will be appreciated (feel free to send me your
login on pootle.locamotion.org so that I can validate you for
reviews). CC'ing Debian French translators in case some of you guys
want to participate (but, in that case, let's do it the Pootle way).


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Re: [translate-pootle] French translation is complete

2009-12-12 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting F Wolff (frie...@translate.org.za):

 I can't really review your translation beyond the quality checks shown
 on the review tab. One thing I saw which might be an issue (but you'll

Oh, I didn't know about this feature. I fixed these issues (when
they're issues).


 know better):
   Suggestion %(suggid)d par %(user)s:
 Should there be a space before the colon?
 
 I assume most of the remaining tests will be false positives (since you
 don't make any mistakes :-)
 
 There is a doubleword failure - if les is a common duplication in
 French, please say. This test can now be configured with a list of words
 per language that should be ignored for this test.


les les is always a mistake in French. In that case, I wrote J'ai
les les conditions du service instead of J'ai lu les
conditions. lu is translation for read.

When fixinv endpunc, I noticed that interrogative sentences are
mentioned to be wrong as they end with  ? while English ends with
?. *This* is normal in French as question marks are preceded by a
(non-breaking) space. So, if there's an exception system somewhere,
this should be added to it.

The same stands for : translated as  :

PS: I fixed endpunc but I have doubts whether original strings are
really consistent wrt this..:-)

puncspacing leaves some unknown reported problems for me. I don't
understand what's reported.

I also don't understand a few simplecaps tests such as the error
reported against Calculating translation statistics, this will take a
few minutes. I seems this is because I have two sentences while
English has only one.



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Re: [translate-pootle] [Translate-devel] Debian packages?

2009-11-27 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting Alaa Abd El Fattah (a...@translate.org.za):
 Since Mandriva is the most popular distro in the translate.org.za


Nicolas, are you working on .deb packages?




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Re: [translate-pootle] Pootle and Bugzilla down

2009-09-25 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting Dwayne Bailey (dwa...@translate.org.za):
 It seems that pootle.locamotion.org and bugs.locamotion.org are down.  I
 think its on the Spanish side, can anyone confirm? I'm hoping that
 someone with server access is able to read this and check into it.


We also noticed problems on i18n.debian.net which is in the same
datacenter, mostly Internet conenction problemsso, as you say,
problems are on the spanish side.



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Re: [translate-pootle] Replace a string in po file

2009-06-03 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting Nguyen Vu Hung (vuhung16p...@gmail.com):
 Hi all,
 
 I am sorry if this email is not suitable for the list.
 
 I am a member of OpenOffice.org Vietnamese translation team.
 The current translations in the .po files are using brackets like this.
 
 « Vietnamese »
 
 I want to replace all '«' with '\' and '»' with '\' in all the msgstr of
 .po files
 in a directory, recursively.
 
 The constrain here is that I must not touch msgid of any .po files.
 
 Is there any way I can do that with translate toolkit?
 

With the TT, I don't know.

With standard gettext tools and sed you probably can.

This is untested but you'll get the point:

msgcat --no-wrap foo.po | \
   sed '/msgstr \/s/«/\/g' | \
   sed '/msgstr \/s/»/\/g' | \
   msgcat foo-fixed.po

The first msgcat will unwrap the file so that you are sure that
translations are indeed on lines that start with 'msgstr '. Then, the
two sed calls do the trick of replacing the 'guillemets' with double
quotes.

The last msgcat rewraps the file to 79-columns width (which improves
readability and usability). It will help having a batter diff between
the original file and the file with replaced characters.

PS: you might also adapt the sed lines if the 'guillemets' are
followed by a space (or non-breaking space) for the opening one and
preceeded by a space for the closing onejust as it is done in
French, for instance. You might also want to check that double quotes
is the official typographical convention for Vietnamese but I guess
you already did (I would wirtually kill anyone suggesting such
replacement for French...:-))



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Re: [translate-pootle] plural NO DEFINIDO

2009-02-25 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting Favio Yañiquez (fyaniq...@gmail.com):
 Estimados amigos
 
 Estoy traduciendo el software glucose a lengua aymara pero el
 siguiente mensaje me aparece al traducir los términos año, mes,
 dia.

I wanted to translate the software in Aymara language but the
following message appears when I want to translate the terms year,
month, day.

 
 La traducción no es posible debido a que la información del plural
 para su idioma no está disponible. Por favor contacte el administrador
 del sitio.

Translation is not possible because the plural information for your
language is not available. Please contact the site administrator.

The mailing list language is more English than Spanish.still
trying to answer your mailand hoping you'll get the point (I'm
able to understand written Spanish but certainly not to write it...if
needed there might be native speakers of Spanish who can translate the
following).



Basically you went into the problem of not being able to work on
Aymara translations because Pootle doesn't have the information about
how plurals work in your language.

A plural form is what describs this.

Let's take an example:

Spanish uses Plural-Forms: nplurals=2; plural=n != 1;

It means that the language has two forms:
-singular is used when the number of objects is exactly one
-plural is used when there are two or more objects AND when there are
zero

French uses a slightly different one: Plural-Forms: nplurals=2;
plural=n1;
Here singular is used for *both* 0 and 1 objects...and plural us used
when there are two or more objects.


Some other languages use more complex forms. Some don't have only two
forms but more. See
http://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/gettext.html#Plural-forms
for details.


So, what's needed is to know how Aymara works in that matter. For
this, please think about how you would translate:

- zero houses
- one house
- two houses
- three houses
.../...

(if the plural system is complicated, that sometimes requires to count
up to 100 or more...:-))...most often, zero, one and two are
enough








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Re: [translate-pootle] FOSDEM roll call

2009-01-27 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting Dwayne Bailey (dwa...@translate.org.za):
 Translate.org.za won't be at FOSDEM, but I was curious if anyone on our
 lists was going?

As far as I know, Nicolas François will be there and should give a
talk about l10n in Debian, in the Debian room.

I won't be there (I never went to FOSDEM because of inconvenient time
of the year for me).



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Re: [translate-pootle] Pootle server is down

2008-10-28 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting Christian Perrier ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
 Quoting Wynand Winterbach ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
  Hi everyone
  
  The Pootle server is completely down - I can't get remote access to the 
  machine.
  
  I hope that this will be a short-lived outage and will keep you up to 
  date on its status.
 
 
 And so is i18n.debian.net, which is hosted in the same datacenter, in Spain.
 
 So, we can assume this is a network problem in Junta de Extremadura
 datacenter, in Merida.

The server should be back online. César Gomez Martin, our contact in
Extremadura, mentioned me that, after a big storm over there, they had
to get some radio links changed.

I haven't checked whether the servers are really online, though, but
it should be OK.



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Re: [translate-pootle] Pootle server is down

2008-10-27 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting Wynand Winterbach ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
 Hi everyone
 
 The Pootle server is completely down - I can't get remote access to the 
 machine.
 
 I hope that this will be a short-lived outage and will keep you up to 
 date on its status.


And so is i18n.debian.net, which is hosted in the same datacenter, in Spain.

So, we can assume this is a network problem in Junta de Extremadura
datacenter, in Merida.



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Re: [translate-pootle] Pootle server down

2008-10-14 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting F Wolff ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

 The server is back up. It seems to only have been a network problem at
 the datacenter, as the machine never went down.


Hmmm. Yesterday, I was about to send a mail saying oh, that's weird
as Debian's Pootle server is down as well...until I realized that
Debian's Pootle server and Pootle's Pootle server are both hosted in
the same datacenter..:-)

For people who might wonder, this datacenter is the datacenter of the
region of Extremadura, in Spainvery well known for its deep
involvment in Free Software.



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Re: [translate-pootle] Translate Toolkit 1.2.0-rc1 in Debian lenny?

2008-10-02 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting F Wolff ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

 I agree with you, Christian. And unless something terrible is reported
 in the next few hours, I'm probably happy to build the official 1.2.0
 packages. Even the 1.2.0 packages will be hard to maintain for two years
 though, but hopefully easier than 1.1 :-)
 
 As I said, I can try to make the official build later today. Would you
 need anything else from my side to help this along? I would really like
 to see 1.2 in Lenny.


Leave time for Nicolas to react..:-)I have no idea whether he
agrees with me and *he* is the maintainer. I'm just the nagging guy
who has ideas and makes others implement them...:)


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Re: [translate-pootle] Privacy issues in Pootle: Privacy policy

2008-09-18 Thread Christian Perrier

 Typically, a user's name and e-mail address is automatically added to 
 his translation.  The owner of this Pootle server has no control over 


In case such text becomes included somewhere, I'd recommend making it
gender neutral.

I know this is not easy with English (or most languages, indeed) but
this is deeply appreciated by all our female contributors...and this
is not only about political correctness, believe me..:)

Thankfully, translator is gender neutral, so the trick is only
avoiding his most of the time..:)

Example:

Typically, a translation file includes the translator's name and
e-mail address. The owner of this Pootle server



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Re: [translate-pootle] Kyrgyz language in login page

2008-09-11 Thread Christian Perrier

 You might even be able to translate this on the Debian Pootle server.
 Here are the Russian files, for example:
 http://i18n.debian.net:8080/ru/di/level2/iso-codes/

That's only ISO-3166 codes (country names) because these are part of
what we use in the Debian Installer. Not ISO-639 codes (languages
names) not ISO-639-3 (language names as well, using three letter
codesa giant translation work).

As of now, areas other than ISO-3166 of iso-codes are not translatable
in our Pootle.

We might decide to put the whole iso-codes package on
pootle.debian.net but I have to discuss this first with the iso-codes
maintainers as iso-codes is already part of the Translation Project.

As of now, I'd recommend translating the ISO-639 part directly from
the iso-codes sources.



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Re: [translate-pootle] Please update translations for upcoming Pootle 1.2

2008-08-27 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting Christian Perrier ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

 Just in case, /me is registering for an account, in order to complete
 French there, if needed.


Done.


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[translate-pootle] (forw) Translations in Pootle

2008-07-17 Thread Christian Perrier
This suggestion comes from the Malay translator of Debian Installer
who is working in our Pootle now

Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:42:15 +0800
From: Nicholas Ng [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Christian Perrier [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Translations in Pootle
X-CRM114-Status: Good  ( pR: 10.1489 )

.../...

4.  I committed the POs through Pootle but there is no commit status /
indication saying that my commit has been successful. Can I request to
have some message on whether our commit is successful or otherwise?

Well, I think doing translation using Pootle is very useful and easy.
:-) Just wanted to see more improvements on it in future.

.../...


So, would it indeed be possible to have Pootle display some Success
message after a commit happened successfully?



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[translate-pootle] Reset a user's password?

2008-07-11 Thread Christian Perrier
A user of the Debian server asks me if there's a way to reste his
password in the Pootle server.

Is there such feature like please reset my password and mail it back
to me?



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Re: [translate-pootle] [d7n] Please update the translation for FreeMind

2008-07-09 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting Samuel Murray (Groenkloof) ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

  One of my earliest 
  efforts in i18n was translating Gaim on Rosetta. Since I was new to the 
  task, it took me a lot more time and effort even than usual. Then I 
  submitted my completed translation to the upstream project, only to find 
  that the Gaim file on Rosetta was way out-of-date.
 
 Yes, the fault lies with whoever is responsible with making sure the 
 latest version is available on the web-based translation system.

Things in Rosetta are oftenobscure. And the link with upstream
development is often obscure as well, I'm afraid. As of now, I
personnally saw no proof that translations made in Rosetta end up
elsewhere than Ubuntu packages. Particularly not in upstream
development environments.

Canonical folks are constantly saying they're working on thisbut
we don't really see anything coming and, in the meantime, translations
are offered more or less randomly in the giant Rosetta system.

Please also note that Rosetta+Launchpad is anything but free
software. Do people really want to base their development on non free software?

Pootle may be less shiny, brilliant and feature-full than Rosetta
is. But it is free software and it allows upstream developers to setup
their own Pootle server, just like the Mailman project did (and many
other projects as well).

The Debian project is in that process. We are slowly (as usual in
Debian) building our own Pootle server. Please notice that this server
will never offer upstream translations: only Debian-specific stuff.

For people who want to see it, this is i18n.debian.net:8080 as of now.

 Well, one thing I can do is to add a small section to the Decathlon wiki 
 pages about where to find out what the latest version is.  It is not 
 meant to solve the problem, but it will empower translators who want to 
 check up on the up-to-date-ness of Pootle's files.


One of the main problems to solve for Pootle servers hooked up to an
upstream VCS is to resynchronize the files on the server with upstream
changes.

This currently has to be made either manually through Pootle
interfaceor by a cron job, externally to Pootle. But there,
solving conflicts when files are changes both in Pootle and the
upstream's VCS, can be tricky. 


A great enhancement would be having something provided along with
Pootle for this. This was already discussed int he list, indeed.
I would very much welcome such development, as a Pootle user.




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Re: [translate-pootle] Still problems committing with git

2008-07-03 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting Lars Kruse ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

  I think these are very valid comments. This whole conversation is about
  a bug anyway, and git is (as you mention) previously unsupported. If the
  code to support older git versions is available, we obviously use it,
  but I'm not too concerned about halting anything just to support all
  versions.
 
 I agree. Thus I will add a module for git1.5.2 within the next days.
 I hope, that it will work for git 1.4.x, too.
 If it does not work for git 1.4.x, then we will just ignore this issue until
 people report real demand, I guess.


All this seems fair. As Miklos pointed and when it comes at Debian,
using a recent Pootle version needs to install either a backported
package or a package from Debian lenny (which is what we do on
i18n.debian.net). So, having to install a backported git is not that a
big deal.

In short, if supporting git versions prior to 1.5 was possible, it
would be good. If that's complicated and involve losing valuable
developer time, it's not worth it.

Actually, people building Pootle production servers with Debian should
indeed use Etch plus Pootle from testing and git from www.backports.org




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Re: [translate-pootle] Still problems committing with git

2008-07-02 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting Lars Kruse ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

 C)
 - applying Miklos patches to the current git support
 - ignoring incompatibility with git=1.5.2
 
 Personally I would prefer (A) over (B) due to the cleaner code (in the
 long-term). But of course, I would not mind (B), too.
 The current version of git in debian stable seems to imply that (C) is not a
 good option for us, or?

We worked this around by using a more recent version of git, for
sure. But, if there's any way to support older versions, it would
certainly be better as you will at some moment definitely find someone
who prefers sticking with supported version of packages and software
on their distro.

So, if it is possible to support git versions below 1.5.2, it would
get my own vote.



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Re: [translate-pootle] Still problems committing with git

2008-07-02 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting F Wolff ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

 From Christians' feedback, I understand that things are well tested, and
 that we are happy with this working. (I haven't tested this yet.)

s/well tested/tested

:-)

We don't have anything in prodcution yet (but I now really work on
this, for translations related to the Debian Installer--you can for
instance begin some work on Afrikaans translation of D-I in Pootle if
you would like to help...:-))

So,  as all this is not used in prodcution, I can't tell this is well
tested.




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Re: [translate-pootle] Still problems committing with git

2008-06-30 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting Miklos Vajna ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
 On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 05:51:34PM +0200, Miklos Vajna [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  I'll send a patch to correct this later tonight.
 
 Could you try this one, please?



As soon as possible, sure.



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Re: [translate-pootle] Still problems committing with git

2008-06-30 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting Miklos Vajna ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
 On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 09:08:27AM +0200, Christian Perrier [EMAIL 
 PROTECTED] wrote:
  The failure message changed..:-)
  [GIT] commit of ('/var/lib/pootle/di/level2/tasksel', 'debian/po/fr.po') 
  failed: 
 
 Heh. Are you sure there were actually changes to commit?
 
 I guess the problem is that commit failed because there were no changes
 to commit, and in this case the stderr is empty.

Yes, you're right, my mistake.

I was thinking I still had pending changes but I actually had zapped
the git cloned tree and recloned it. So nothing was left to commit

 
 If this is the case, I'm not exactly sure what would be the right
 solution, maybe check if stderr is empty and if yes, dump stdout instead
 stderr in the error message?


That would be better as, currently, trying to commit when nothing is
pending is indeed triggering erros like:

[GIT] commit of ('/var/lib/pootle/di/level2/tasksel', 'debian/po/fr.po') 
failed: 


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Re: [translate-pootle] Committing with git

2008-06-24 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting Christian Perrier ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
 Quoting F Wolff ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
 
   Actually, I installed a backported git-core package. Even on official
   Debian servers, we are using this package, indeed..:-)
  
  What is the version number of the git package you are using?  As I
 
 Now, 1.5.5. But I now have to check if the problem is still here.

There are apparently some problems  remaining, still.

Needs more investigation, though.



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Re: [translate-pootle] Committing with git

2008-06-23 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting F Wolff ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

  Actually, I installed a backported git-core package. Even on official
  Debian servers, we are using this package, indeed..:-)
 
 What is the version number of the git package you are using?  As I

Now, 1.5.5. But I now have to check if the problem is still here.


 Yes, this is where direct use of SVN would cause a conflict. Obviously a
 Pootle server can't afford a conflict, since the file would become
 unusable.
 
 Therefore Pootle will be conservative and will consider the version
 control system to be the authority and any conflicts in the local file
 get be converted to suggestions. These suggestions then need to be

Only conflicts, then ?

So, if for instance the upstream change is a new string and the local
Pootle change was made in another string, then that local uncommited
change will not be converted to a suggestion, right ?

The same stands if the upstream change is a string getting fuzzy while
the local change is made in *another* string.




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[translate-pootle] Committing with git

2008-06-22 Thread Christian Perrier

Hello,

On i18n.debian.net:8080 I have a project under Debian Installer (all
levels) and level2 which is tasksel.

tasksel development is made in a git repository (git clone
ssh://git.debian.org/git/tasksel/tasksel.git). The repository is
cloned directly in the pootle tree, in
/var/lib/pootle/d/level2/tasksel

Files are owned by the 'pootle' user. That user has commit access to
the git repository (I can git add files, then git commit, then
git push if I do it outside Pootle).


However when I try to commit from Pootle, I get this:


Erreur
[GIT] add of ('/var/lib/pootle/di/level2/tasksel', 'debian/po/fr.po') failed: 
fatal: pathspec 'debian/po/fr.po' did not match any files 
Retour


Any idea?


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Re: [translate-pootle] Committing with git

2008-06-22 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting Miklos Vajna ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

 what is the version of git you're using?

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/srv/pootle-stuff/sync-projects.d# dpkg -s git-core
Package: git-core
Status: install ok installed
Priority: optional
Section: devel
Installed-Size: 4812
Maintainer: Gerrit Pape [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Architecture: i386
Version: 1:1.4.4.4-2



 
 i guess the server runs debian which ships some ancient git version by
 default, so this may be related:
 
 http://bugs.locamotion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=347


Well, that server is running Debian stable, so yes, this might very
well be related. 

We'll consider updating git but, well, the server is meant to remain
as stable as possible and introducing a backported package might be
too much of a challenge...if we want to make this server an official
server of the Debian project, some day.

OTOH, even Debian official servers use more recent git:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ dpkg -s git-core
.../...
Version: 1:1.5.4.2-1~bpo40+2




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Re: [translate-pootle] Make commits from command line

2008-02-29 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting Normando Hall ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
 Hello again :)
 
 I want to make commit from command line. I can make commits through cron 
 scripts, but I want through pootle, because add a message about 
 translator and translated strings.
 
 Is this possible?


As far as I know, no.

This is something we also need for Debian's experimental Pootle
server.

If someone is able to work on this, that would rock.

The same stands for Pootle updates from the command-line which you
mentioend earlier.



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Re: [translate-pootle] How/where to specify source/base/original language

2007-11-22 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting Xavier Alvarez ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

 Personally, I think it would definitely broaden the available 
 translator base for 'less global languages'... ie: 
 English-Quechua translators willing to collaborate will be hard 
 to come by, and in some cases they may not even exist; but 
 Spanish-Quechua translators are much more likely. It's not 
 optimal, but then the Aymara-Quechua translator can review it 
 too... ;)


I fully support this.

Indeed, I already remember the issue of Spanish-Quechua as one of the
best examples (often discussed in Debian, indeed), another being
French-foo when foo is about any language spoken in former French
colonies of Africa (Senegal, Mail, Burkinaand dozens of these).

IIRC, this was mentioned at least in Wordforge's plans as a good
feature to have in Pootle.




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Re: [translate-pootle] Plural forms error

2007-11-21 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting Xavier Alvarez ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

From work by the Debian translator for Thai:

  - [th] Thai, 

Plural-Forms: nplurals=1; plural=0;\n




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Re: [translate-pootle] Pootle on diet

2007-08-03 Thread Christian Perrier
 hmm, afaik Pootle does not resolve VCS conflicts, or have i missed
 something? :)


I wasn't clear, sorry.

I was not talking about conflicts internal to the VCS but conflicts
between the version in the repository and what is in Pootle.


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Re: [translate-pootle] Pootle on diet

2007-08-02 Thread Christian Perrier
To add a cent to this thread, I think it would also be a *great*
progress for those of us who imagine using Pootle on a large scale to
be able to run svn update from Pootle *automatically* (ie in a cron
job or so).

For this we would need to have something that does that update *and*
updates Pootle statistics or solves conflicts just like the Update
link does inside Pootle.

It would be, for me, much much more interesting than support for the
gazillionth VCS on earth..:-)




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Re: [translate-pootle] Translations for upcoming Pootle 1.0

2007-05-05 Thread Christian Perrier
 We have received some translations of the Pootle users guide. Please
 continue to update these translations, even after the release. I would
 be especially grateful of a French translation for the millions of
 people in the francophone world.


Forwarded to the Debian l10n list, given the privileged links we have
between Debian and Wordforge..:)

I can't do it myself, but hopefully one of our translation will jump
into this.

Something unclear to me: is the user's guide gettextified?


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Re: [translate-pootle] Translations for upcoming Pootle 1.0

2007-05-05 Thread Christian Perrier
 The user's guide lives at
 http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/users/user_guide
 (dokuwiki)
 
 We converted it to PO using txt2po and these files are available at
 http://pootle.wordforge.org/projects/usersguide/

Hmmm, Pootle says to French translation is 100% there...



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Re: [translate-pootle] Don't know how to save translation

2007-04-18 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting Charles A. Landemaine ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
 A friend of mine installed Pootle for me to translate an open-source
 application. I logged in and tried to figure out how it works. There
 is no textarea, only an Edit link to the right, a little outside its
 box. When I click it, I am able to type the translation, but then I
 have a series of options except the one I need: The Save button :)
 
 http://www.pcbsd.org/tmp/capture1.jpg
 
 How can I save my translation? What does the Suggest button do? I
 found the other buttons not so necessary also. Is there a user's
 manual so that I can understand Pootle a little better?


You're probably either not authenticated to the Pootle server or
authenticated with a user who does not have the Translate rights.

The project admin (your friend?) should grant you the right to
Translate ion the project administration page.



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Re: [translate-pootle] Resp.: Fedora SoC project (Dimitris Glezos)

2007-04-16 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting Juanse Pérez Herrero ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
 Hi,
 
 Just in case you find it interesting or would like to colaborate
 
 We are developing another open source tool for translation. We use a
 database to store the pofile info,  and we plan to integrate with svn
 transparently, with some interesting comunity features, like sharing the
 translation memories. We also treat strings in different domains within a
 project as a single string, something is currently missing.

Thanks for sharing this information but, indeed, what in Pootle
doesn't make it possible to integrate such features in Pootle instead
of writin yet another online translation tool?

So far, all what I've seen from the Pootle developers is openess to
new developers and external collaboration.

The above features really fit Pootle's goals, indeed.





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[translate-pootle] How to automate updates from a SVN repository

2007-04-15 Thread Christian Perrier
The http://i18n.debian.net:8080/projects/test/ project is a Pootle
project using the Debian Installer translation files directly from D-I
SVN.

If I go on a given translation (say, French), I can update the file
from D-I SVN.

However, what I would like to do is automating this process for all
languages so that this project is always up-to-date.

Of course, I can cd /var/lib/pootle/test ; svn up but what will then
happen to strings modified by the translators in case they didn't
commit them yet...and the file was changed in the SVN (for instance
because strings have been added meanwhile).

I suppose that the Update option from Pootle handles such
conflicts...but I guess that a svn up will not handle them.

Is is possible to run the Update function from a script and not from
Pootle's web interface?



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Re: [translate-pootle] How to automate updates from a SVN repository

2007-04-15 Thread Christian Perrier
 I suppose that the Update option from Pootle handles such
 conflicts...but I guess that a svn up will not handle them.

It does not. If I use the Update function for a given file in a
project which uses SVN repository, the changes I made locally without
committing are overwritten by the content of the translations from the
SVN server.

That makes any automated SVN update very likely to discard changes
made through the Pootle interface and not committed.





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Re: [translate-pootle] A few comments about Pootle on the Debian side

2007-02-14 Thread Christian Perrier
 I think I might have lost you on this.  You mean to fudge the bar to
 always show at least a visible piece of red?  I was thinking of having
 the icon show red if there is any untranslated item.

Actually, both would be nice..:)



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Re: [translate-pootle] A few comments about Pootle on the Debian side

2007-02-08 Thread Christian Perrier
 Yes it is doing word counts not string counts for percentages.  I would
 argue that string counts give absolutely no indication of the workload,
 they are in fact a basic binary measure (done, not done).  Compare a GUI
 to documentation.  While they could have the string count you can be
 assured that the docs will have at least 5 times as many words and thus
 be in the order of 5 times more work.  Strings tell you none of that.
 
 I disagree that word counts promote word thinking vs sentence thinking.
 That is a fault of the translator not a statistic, you can't blame a
 measure for that.  In the professional translation world they counts
 words and for some languages characters.  Strings is a foreign concept.

Actually, this was a discussion we has with Frans when talking about
this issue.

Definitely, the word count represents much more the remaining workload
than the string count.

However, when it comes at gettext-based translations, which we have
widely in Free Software, the fact that a *string* is translated or not
is the factor that decides whether it will be used or not. Moreover,
by design choice, we have, in Debian, several cases where *all*
strings of a give set (for example a screen asking a question in our
installer) have to be translated for the screen to be shown
translated.

So, the percentage of translated strings is of some value for the
developers who will use the translations.

As an example, in the Debian Installer team, we have decided to set
goals to reach in order to decide what languages we activate. These
goals ar ebased on the percentage of translated strings, so this has
much value for us.

This is mostly why I was proposing to make this an option in the
software: either display stats by words or stats by strings.


  Another comment based on:
  http://i18n.debian.net:8080/nl/debconf/
  
  For larger files it is not all that easy to see if there's one or two 
  strings untranslated or fuzzy as the grey/red area will be very small. 
  Would it be possible for such translations to get a different colored 
  folder icon? Or rather: use a different icon for files that have 
  ((translated+fuzzy)  1 and (fuzzy+untranslated)  1).
 
 That's a really good suggestion, I like that one.  I'd suggest that we
 use the colours that are used in the progress bar.  Ie Red if anything
 is untranslated, yellow if there is a fuzzy entry, green if everything
 is translated.  Or at least some indicator like that.

This is already what being done (apart from the yellow part). The main
point was really to have some red appear even when a very very small
part of the file is untranslated


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[translate-pootle] A few comments about Pootle on the Debian side

2007-02-07 Thread Christian Perrier
Talking with Frans Pop in a conference (where we indeed summarize the
results of the Extremadura sessions), he mentioned me some comments he
had pending for a while about the design and lyout of Pootle. Let's share:

- Forwarded message from Frans Pop [EMAIL PROTECTED] -

From: Frans Pop [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: debian-i18n@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Example big Pootle project on i18n.debian.net: debconf 
translations
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:43:52 +0100
X-Mailing-List: debian-i18n@lists.debian.org archive/latest/8245
X-CRM114-Status: UNSURE (7.5861) This message is 'unsure'; please train it! 

On Wednesday 27 December 2006 09:32, Christian Perrier wrote:
 With a few workarounds and glitches, I have been able to import all
 Debian debconf translations in Debian's Pootle server (STILL
 EXPERIMENTAL, don't use for production work).

I've taken a quick look and must say I'm totally confused by one thing.

Take as example:
http://i18n.debian.net:8080/nl/debconf/clamav-data/?

This file has 2 strings of which 1 if fuzzy. However, the translation 
stats show 82% translated. WTF?
It seems that the percentage is based on a count of words, but this seems 
to me a totally bogus statistic because either a whole string is 
translated or it is not.

Note that the biggest problem with a lot of translations is that people 
translate words instead of the meaning of sentences. To me this statistic 
seems to promote that :-(

Another comment based on:
http://i18n.debian.net:8080/nl/debconf/

For larger files it is not all that easy to see if there's one or two 
strings untranslated or fuzzy as the grey/red area will be very small. 
Would it be possible for such translations to get a different colored 
folder icon? Or rather: use a different icon for files that have 
((translated+fuzzy)  1 and (fuzzy+untranslated)  1).

Cheers,
FJP



- End forwarded message -


personal comments:

- I think that making the stats optionnally based on strings of words
would be a good enhancement, allowing each Pootle server admin to
choose one solution or another

-the comment about 99% being visually too close to 100% is also
valid. There should be something like a minimum number of red pixels
when the file is not complete.


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Re: [translate-pootle] Speeding up import of big projects

2006-12-27 Thread Christian Perrier
 BTW, is there a way to tell a running Pootle server to reload files (some
 specified files), without restarting Pootle.
 In general, it would be nice to be able to tell Pootle Hey, Pootle, I
 will update xxx, forbid any access to it and then Hey Pootle, xxx was
 updated, you can read it (and generate the stats).
 It would be nice when updating from CVS or svn.


Yeah, that would be a must-have.

Until this is done, I think that I will just stop the Pootle server
when running my import scripts on i18n.debian.net


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Re: [translate-pootle] New python-pylucene Debian package, please test and criticize

2006-12-25 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting Nicolas François ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
 Hello,
 
 Here is a patch to implement the new Python Policy.
 
 The current source package embed a binary only JAR of lucene. It would be
 better to update the liblucene-java Debian package and to build
 python-lucene with the JAR distributed by this package.

Thanks, Nicolas. The package looks better now...

http://www.perrier.eu.org/debian/packages has the new version

I had a look at lucene distribution files, but I really don't feel
like I can handle an update of liblucene-java myself



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[translate-pootle] Trigger reindexing from the command line?

2006-12-25 Thread Christian Perrier
When PO files are added externally to a project, Pootle reindexes them
and updates its stats the first time someone accesses the project page
through the web interface.

However, as I want to setup a daily import of PO files in Pootle, how
can I trigger this update in my update script?



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[translate-pootle] New python-pylucene Debian package, please test and criticize

2006-12-24 Thread Christian Perrier
(from a discussion in the list for the development of Pootle, an
online translation tool which optionnally makes use of pyLucene and is
planned to be used for the i18n infrastructure of Debian)

Quoting Leonardo Fontenelle ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
 2006/12/23, Christian Perrier [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  However pyLucene is not packaged for Debian.
 Same for Gentoo. There is an experimental package,  but it's not
 trivial to install.


Even if the former discussion has shown that a direct benefit for
Pootle is not obvious, I have built a preliminary package for PyLucene
and Debian etch.

It is derived from Brett Parker's package built a while ago for
sarge.Brett is CC'ed to this mail.

Please find it at http://www.perrier.eu.org/debian/packages

There is merely *no* chance that this makes it into Debian etch (too
late), but having a solid basis could help for the future.

Please note that I am in no ay a specialist of Python stuff, so a look
from people in the Python team with regards to the Python policy would
help a lot...:-)

My intent is certainly not maintaining this myself, but more to
provide a good basis to someone with more knowledge of the software itself.


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Re: [translate-pootle] [Translate-devel] Various errors and limitations encoutered during import of Debian debconf translations in Pootle 0.10.1

2006-12-23 Thread Christian Perrier

   workaraound: re-encode files in UTF-8 but that's not exactly
satisfying in the long term. It will take ages before
we enforce UTF-8 on all Debian l10n teams (why would
we?)
 
 Because it's the standard? :)

No more no less than anything less. Even though I perfectly agree that
it sets up a common ground, having software that only supports UTF-8
encoding is too much restriction.

gettext is designed for being able to hadle various encodings and
gettext-aware software should handle these encodings gracefully..:)

   expected fix: have the Tookit *ignore* invalid files and Pootle
 continue the import/indexing
 
 Or we could have an option: ignore invalid files, OR display an  
 interactive error.

That would definitely be the best. I currently have to dig into the
bunch of PO files to find the culprit.



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Re: [translate-pootle] Pootle is -very- slow to update language file.

2006-12-23 Thread Christian Perrier
 The Debian integration project is certainly finding some areas for  
 improvement. That's great: exactly what we need to happen. :)


I'm actually trying to look at the pyLucene thing. It is mentioned in
the Pootle doc as a very good way to improve Pootle's speed. 

However pyLucene is not packaged for Debian. There are some unofficial
packages around but they've been built for sarge and, as pyLucene is
based on some Java things that have changed a lot between sarge and
etch, that's a pretty big deal to handle with. Moreover, all these
Python things have also changed a lot, with a brand new Python packages
policy which I still have to learn about.

So, well, I have some interesting work to do..:)



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Re: [translate-pootle] Limit to the number of subdirectories in a project?

2006-12-19 Thread Christian Perrier
 My guess is that there might be an error in a file in that package,


Got the culprit. This is that strange apticron_1.1.19_pt.po file that
remains in the apticron directory(in tgz files I sent to Friedel
in private)

The file is slightly invalid (broken headers...one does not end with
\n) and my import script didn't choke enough on it.

I still think that Pootle and the Toolkit are too sensitive to such
errors. They should fail more graceufully in case of invalid PO files.

File attached.


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Re: [translate-pootle] New POT file for upcoming Pootle 0.10.1

2006-09-16 Thread Christian Perrier

 My personal sort of an aim is for Pootle 0.10.1 to make it into the
 upcoming Debian stable (Etch). I don't know if we'll make it, but
 perhaps this is an extra incentive for people to update or start
 translations. My current estimate is for a release within the next week
 (hopefully before 23 September).


By experience, that could be short for a full round of translation
updates for many teams in Debian (and, IIRC, several of your
translations come from Debian-involved people).

However, we can imagine that the Debian maintainer will eventually
apply new translations coming *after* the release as Debian patches
against the package (and of course forward them to you, as we all do
with our gentle upstream).

I suggest pointing people in debian-i18n to the location where they can
get the translation files for not yet supported languagesand
warning the current translators for already supported languages.

The Debian maintainer could indeed very well do it for you and thus
save you valuable coding time...:)




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Re: [translate-pootle] Translating OpenOffice.org with Pootle

2006-09-12 Thread Christian Perrier

 GNOME has a fine site, http://l10n-status.gnome.org, which provides an
 easy way to download current PO files. It is synchronized with the CVS
 every twelve hours. It would be just great if somehow PO files in the
 Pootle server could be automatically and periodically updated from
 that GNOME web page.


This is exactly a feature we need for Debian i18n and more
specifically Deiban *installer* i18n

See http://d-i.alioth.debian.org/l10n-stats/ for links

As soon as we will have i18n.debian.net (aka churros) ready, one of
the goals is using D-I level1 as a testbed example of automated sync
involving Pootle and a SVN repository (which, yes, can be updated
*either* from Pootle *or* directly).



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Re: [translate-pootle] A new font for N'ko

2006-09-03 Thread Christian Perrier
Quoting Clytie Siddall ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
 For those African-language translators among us... ;)
 
 http://evertype.com/fonts/nko/


Well, he explains how he does the work...but no link to the font. Is
that a freely licensed font?


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Re: [translate-pootle] Installing locally

2006-09-02 Thread Christian Perrier
 This error indicates that your PYTHONPATH is not set up correctly. The
 page mentions the following:
   export PYTHONPATH=/home/pootle/usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/


Another option is of course a very simple apt-get install pootle but
that assumes that you're using The Right Distribution:-)



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Re: [translate-pootle] (very) Early python-jtoolkit and pootle Debian packages available

2006-07-15 Thread Christian Perrier
 I posted a RFS on debian-mentors. I'm still waiting for a sponsor.
 
 My pootle package contains an init script to start Pootle on startup.

No problem. I actually did work on these packages only because I
really wanted something to heppen before the Extremadura
meeting. Whether it happens because your packages are uploaded or
because I worked on mine is not very important.

That's all good news..:)




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Re: [translate-pootle] Wordforge

2006-06-07 Thread Christian Perrier

 Might be best to run you branch from Pootle CVS on SourceForge as it
 will allow easier syncing of your work with changes in HEAD.  If you
 feel up to migrating us to SVN lets chat.

Would be good. I see things from a user point of view and, indeed, SVN
is way much more convenient to work with than CVS.

Wi wouldn't recommend moving to some other higher level RCS systems,
such as distributed ones. My personal experience is that, even though
these tools have really great potential for high-end developers, their
high learning curve is a blocker ofr occasionnal contributors.

 Some of this does affect backend separation.
 
 There of course is lots of work, but I understand that yours needs to be
 quite independent.  We have been discussing the concept of change queues
 which relates to locking ie we don't want to step on someone else's
 change if for some reason you had yours out for too long.  Queues would
 also allow us to create a distributed environment. This direction could
 be the most fruitful for your work.
 
 But as the others have said #pootle is a good place to ask.


Yes, definitely, Gintas (and Aigars) should hang around there. I will
also probably, though the list of channels I'm now regulmarly
subscribed to is too long..:)



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