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Hi David,
I hope you do not mind that I try to answer your question which was
addressed
at Peter. Have no better thing to do right now.
I assume with "not included postulates" you mean the pan-determined (PD)
postulates.
Dennis did not fill them in into the chart on purpose I guess. Would spoil
the
students win.
Took me quite some time to figure that out.
Ok, if you understand the concept of complementing postulates and that they
lead into a no-game situation it is only a small step to understand what
Dennis means in that quote you gave:
"If you've been following this closely you'll have realized that
at the overwhelm level we have the semblance of a no game
situation, for there is no longer any conflict between the
postulates; they are, indeed, complementary."
Basically there is no difference regarding the PDs and SDs configuration
in the
Postulate Failure Chart (PFC) between a situation where one of the
opponents
decides to adopt the complementary postulate to the opponents postulate and
a situation where this same configuration of postulates is enforced by one
opponent upon the other by e.g. brute force (which is an overt of overwhelm
committed by the enforcing entity while the losing entity experiences
the motivator of being overwhelmed).
There is of course a big difference - emotionally if you want - if the
opponent
out of its own free will and determination adopts the complementary
postulates
in order to end a game, which he is not willing to play. In that case no
overwhelms
(thus no overt/motivators are involved).
Common to both instances still is that the game is ended as soon as the
complementary
postulate situation is established. That's simply technical, very mechanic.
In the latter - if the one opponent is clever - a game would not
even start because the clever being would already have recognized what the
opponents
intention is and the establishing of the complementary postulates would be
instantly
so that the undesired game would be ended before a game actually evolves.
Just to recap what the complementary postulates are (this must be
understood well,
otherwise it is impossible to fill in the missing postulates in the PFC
correctly):
Let's take the basic package the "To Be Known" or "Must Be Known" ("MBK"
for short).
All packages are composed of four 'legs' (as Dennis calls them).
For the MBK-package this is:
Leg1: MBK (= Must Be Known = to make known)
Leg2: MNBK (= Must Not Be Known = to make not known)
Leg3: MK (= Must Know = to know)
Leg4: MNK (= Must Not Know = to not know)
(Please note: Leg1 corrsponds to the lines 8B, 8A, 7B, 7A in the PFC;
Leg2 to 6B, 6A, 5B, 5A;
Leg3 to 4B, 4A, 3B, 3A;
Leg4 to 2B, 2A, 1B, 1A.)
Now, following leg-pairs are complementing each other (means they do not
oppose each other;
in other words: they do not be in conflict with each other):
Leg1 & Leg3
Leg2 & Leg4
or in terms of 'to know':
MBK & MK
MNBK & MNK
Those pairings always results in a no-game condition.
(Corollary other valid combinations are conflicting or in opposition to
each other;
which results in a game condition)
As a side note:
Usually, if you ask anyone, not too familiar with those things and boolean
logic,
for a spontaneous answer to the question:
"What is the opposing attitude to someone with the attitude: "Must be
known" (which is the
same as "to make known")?"
Most people answer with: "Hmmm, ... well that's simple, it's 'must _not_
be known'
- of course."
Well that's of course wrong. They tend to confuse "opposing" (verb) with
"opposition" (noun).
Anyway, let's look at at the first line in the PFC as you have filled it
in:
Self /SDP PDP / Others /SDP PDP
1A (MBK) MK MBK (MK)
Motivator Overwhelmed You are forced to know. /Infliction/ You
have
been inflicted./You lost
I'm not sure if I understand this correctly. So allow me to develop the
picture from scratch and the starting point is the PFC's 1st line as
in the books w/o the PD postulates:
Let's assume that the OTHER party is the one who originates an Effect
therefore
the SELF party must be the receiving terminal.
In line 1A the OTHER postulates: SD = MBK (on his side - because it is the
SD postulate);
PD = MK (on the SELF's side - because
it's the PD postulate
which he wants to impress onto
the SELF entity.
Purpose: that SELF experiences
(knows) his (= OTHER's)
created effect.)
Example:
You are SELF; your pa is OTHER.
His postulate (on his side = SD) is that: "you do this certain job for me!"
(is equivalent to the generalized form of: MBK)
(he does _not_ think: "I want that job done" or something unspecific like
that.)
Since you are a living being he needs compliance through agreement from
you.
What he needs on your side (SELF) - to further his ends in the game - is
this
postulate (the complementary one to his SD postulate): "i must do the job
pa assigns
to me." (generic form: MK).
I could have written: "i want to do ..." instead of "i must ...". Well, if
pa is
a friendly guy it would be that; but remember it's about overwhelm here.
Note: Pa does _not_ want to induce _this_ as a PD thought into you: "my
son will
do this job for me." or something stupid like this - would not do the
trick if you
think that thought (you would make _your_ son do the job :-) - you see
that?
There are various strategies to achieve compliance. In line 1A of the PFC
we for
sure can exclude sensible arguing, begging, convincing through (AR)C, ...
No, we're dealing with you being overwhelmed and pa is the overwhelmer
here.
(Anyone who has to resort to overwhelming force to get compliance actually
is a very poor guy fighting a last ditch fight. In that example pa is
actually
much wore off (case wise) than you - sorry, I should not lace-in my
opinions here).
Obviously you (SELF) has other ideas about doing the job pa is determined
to assign
to you. That means your SD postulate originally was: "must not do that
damned job."
(is equivalent to generic: MNK)
Well, since pa is so much stronger (physically) in order to survive this
situation
you see no other option but to give up your own MNK SD postulate and let
it be
pushed off the games board by pa's MK PD postulate. If you demonstrate
this with
small pieces or on a chess-board or by drawing a picture this will soon
become
very clear to you. It is difficult to explain because it contains a
movement, an
action. Which is the action of pushing your postulate off the board. If
done
with enough brute force this sure can be traumatic. The emotions involved
just right
before you realize that you have no other way out as to abandon your own
postulate and
have to adopt the one of an enemy-entity instead, can be terrible.
Remember b.t.w. that
games-play is all about the sensations created at the boundaries of
opposing postulates.
That can be an awful lot of energy involved.
Ok, I almost forgot the other half:
We have covered pa so far - his SD and PD.
And we have covered your own SD (which was MNK) just right before the
overwhelm
takes place. And right after that your SD has now become changed into
pa's PD (which is MK). So you're in the situation that you have
involuntarily
adopted MK instead of MNK in the place of your SD postulate.
This establishes the "misownership" of this postulate which actually is not
your SD postulate but the forcibly injected PD postulate from pa.
Of course, in order to protect yourself and fight pa's intention you (SELF)
had to put up a PD postulate induced at pa's side. This PD of yours was
e.g.
"my son must not do that job for me" - something like that - which
resembles
generically MNBK. (You sure did not induce in pa something like: "i do not
wand to do that job." - you see, that would be rather silly.)
I hope we've covered the first line of the PFC now thoroughly.
And I think you can fill in the rest of the chart on your own.
I do not want to spoil the win for you and I guess Dennis did not
fill out the chart completely for the same reason. Believe me, I've
tinkered around with the PFC for days until all fell together like
in a beautifully composed picture.
If you see need for further clarification please ask.
Good luck
Robin
--------
On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 05:08:33 +0200, <trom-requ...@lists.newciv.org> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Win Lose (The Resolution of Mind list)
2. Complementary postulates? (The Resolution of Mind list)
3. Re: Win Lose (The Resolution of Mind list)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 16:13:46 -0400
From: The Resolution of Mind list <trom@lists.newciv.org>
To: The Resolution of Mind list <trom@lists.newciv.org>
Subject: Re: [TROM1] Win Lose
Message-ID: <mailman.4207.1476151752.1261.t...@lists.newciv.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hi Pete,
Thank you for your reply and suggestion.
Something appears to be wrong with what Dennis said, there.
The question that has to be asked is: Is Dennis right?
What he said, does not make sense for me, for at least a couple of
reasons that come to mind for me at this time.
1. What if you are implanted with the following postulates by beating,
pounding, shouting and berating and overwhelm?:
You are stupid!
You are insane!
You will never become anything!
You are no good for nothing!
What is wrong with you?
Get out of here!
Don't touch me!
You will never become successful at anything!
You are a lazy good for nothing bum!
There is something wrong with you.
You can't do anything right!
You will never succeed!
You are a loser!
You can't do anything right!
You need a real good beating, to smarten you up!
You need to have some sense pounded into you!
You are trouble looking for a place to happen!
You screw everything up.
Everything you touch turns to shit!
You don't do anything unless I tell you!
If you need to do anything, you don't do it unless you ask for help
first!
Or the variants:
You don't do anything unless someone helps you, or is watching you.
You don't do anything unless someone is watching you!
You don't do anything unless someone does it for you!
You are a stupid loser!
You are a mistake!
No one likes you!
Who wants you!
You are a good shit, but who likes shit?
I wish you were never born!
I told you many times before, not to touch it!
Or the variant:
I told you many times before, do not touch anything or do anything unless
I tell you too!
You are nothing but a problem!
You stupid fool!
Smarten up, or you will get another good beating!
Get out of here!
Get lost!
Gawd are you stupid!
How do you clear out those negative, blocking, disabling postulates?
As I said before, any idea is only as good as it works.
2. If you can't win, or can't succeed, how do you function or compete in
life?
How do you get a job and hang on to it?
How do you get anywhere in life?
How do you form a meaningful relationship?
Is a person supposed to get on welfare and hide in a dungeon or live
under
the bridge for all his life?
Or beg on the streets?
I have heard some homeless people have amassed a lot of money and bought
homes and good cars by being professional beggars on the street.
That is one of the "systems" that Dennis mentions, that humans have
developed for getting things done.
But I do not find that appealing.
David
On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 1:39 PM, The Resolution of Mind list <
trom@lists.newciv.org> wrote:
*************
The following message is relayed to you by trom@lists.newciv.org
************
Hi David
You need to read book "3 Expanding on Level 5" before you start making
goals packages. In there you will find this section:
"The Games Goals
Now the fourth one, there?s a class of goals which are called games
goals.
Now a games goal has no meaning outside of games play. That is the
definition; it is a technical definition of a games goal. An example of
a
games goal is ?to win? or ?to exploit?, or ?to play?. Quite clearly the
goal ?to win? has no meaning outside of the games play. The goal ?to
exploit? has no meaning outside of games play. The goal ?to play? has no
meaning outside of games play. You see that? So that?s a technical
definition, they?re games goals. Now the datum is that all games goals
are
un-erasable. They?re un-erasable. The reason why they are un-erasable is
because the games goal has no meaning outside of games play, it has no
complementary postulates and therefore it won?t erase."
Dennis did a lot of research between 1978 when he published The
Resolution
of Mind and 1994 when he dictated his "Supplementary Lectures" which i
transcribed to produce the additional books in the series.
Sincerely
Pete Mclaughlin
Sent from my iPad
> On Oct 8, 2016, at 7:20 PM, The Resolution of Mind list <
trom@lists.newciv.org> wrote:
>
> *************
> The following message is relayed to you by trom@lists.newciv.org
> ************
> Pete, or anyone else,
>
> Got any suggestions on how to set up a junior goals package on "To
Win"
for L5?
>
> That would cover the following postulates:
>
>
> Must not be allowed to win/Must lose
> Can't win/must not be allowed to win. Must not win.
> Must not be allowed to succeed. Must fail.
>
>
>
>
> (The "To Know" package does not run for me.)
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
> _______________________________________________
> TROM mailing list
> TROM@lists.newciv.org
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 23:28:17 -0400
From: The Resolution of Mind list <trom@lists.newciv.org>
To: The Resolution of Mind list <trom@lists.newciv.org>
Subject: [TROM1] Complementary postulates?
Message-ID: <mailman.4208.1476151752.1261.t...@lists.newciv.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Pete,
I am trying to figure out what the "not included postulates" are
supposed
to be, because Dennis is somewhat ambiguous and confusing for me.
The meaning of this quote from the book is not exactly clear to me:
I If you?ve been following this closely you?ll have realized that
at the overwhelm level we have the semblance of a no game
situation, for there is no longer any conflict between the
postulates; they are, indeed, complementary.
Does the above quote mean the following:
(In other words, is the following correct in the way I have included the
postulates in lines 1A and 2B on my chart for my own understanding
(in small text and brackets) that Dennis did not include on the original
chart?:
Self /SDP PDP / Others /SDP PDP
1A (MBK) MK MBK (MK)
Motivator Overwhelmed You are forced to know. /Infliction/ You
have
been inflicted./You lost
2B MNK (MNBK) (MNK) MNBK
Overt Overwhelm Preventing from being known. /Rejection/
You rejected the other guy. /You win
Again,..... I want to get certainty on this:
Does Dennis mean that the self and others postulates are also the same in
lines: 3A and 4B, 5A and 6B, 7A and 8B?
David
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 20:07:28 -0700
From: The Resolution of Mind list <trom@lists.newciv.org>
To: trom@lists.newciv.org
Subject: Re: [TROM1] Win Lose
Message-ID: <mailman.4228.1476155313.1261.t...@lists.newciv.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hi David
You are right it is difficult to deal with a lifetime of abuse.
The solution is to handle the abuse a little at a time. If it gets too
intense back off and do some RI till the upset reduces then go back to
it again.
I am still working through abuse done to me and abuse i have done to
others to let it go from my life. I find that working over in detail
the level 5 chart and the book "The Art of
War" to puzzle out what i can really hold onto in this universe when
others are trying to take them away from me. Taxes and fines and abuse
of little girls running lemonade stands who are shut down by cops or
city officials really anger me.
Here is a chapter from Muriel Chens "Psychic First Aid" which points out
how to do something about anger. This may help.
"ANGER-Which you feel -Which you receive from another
Anger is a natural, even a positive emotion for a human to feel. Feeling
the emotion of anger stimulates a person to action, and that action is
to survive by either fighting or fleeing.
If you cannot fight or flee, you need to find another method of
expressing this anger. It is important that the expression is
appropriate, and many people have not yet learned the appropriate
expression of anger.
Anger expressed in an appropriate fashion does no harm--it may even
strengthen a relationship--which is why it may be called "positive".
Anger that is not expressed is said to be suppressed or repressed.
Unexpressed anger may have various unwanted results. The chemistry of
suppressed or repressed anger can lodge in the body and cause disease,
or the energy of anger can build up and up and up until something
triggers it. We all have witnessed someone exploding into rage over next
to nothing. Suppression and repression of anger causes all of our
problems with anger.
If you are feeling fear in the presence of such outbursts from someone,
know that you have attracted that person by means of your own repressed
anger. You may have no idea that it is there. If you are with someone
who has outbursts of anger it is almost certain that you do have
suppressed and repressed anger Repressed anger in yourself attracts
repressed anger in others.
Steps:
1. Find a time when you felt that kind of fear. There will be some anger
of your own under that fear which you did not express at that time.
2. Allow yourself to become aware of the anger that is under the fear.
Do not think and reason it out--just let it come to you. Know that it is
all right for you to feel angry. When the feeling which is anger is
there with you,
3. Feel it as intensely as you can. Let the feelings build up more and
more. Really build the intensity--consciously. When the energy has come
to a peak. . .
4. Pour the feelings into an imaginary container. Pour all that energy
into the container. There may be words associated with the feeling. Let
them flow with the feelings into the container. If you fill one
container, then fill another, and another. . . . .
4a. Make sure all the anger is gone from you. If some remains, intensify
it until you can let it go and then put it in a container. Next,
5. Imagine that you are the you who is much more than your body and
magically turn all the contents of the containers into bright, sparkling
white light. Pour all that sparkling white light into yourself--through
the top of your head filling your body. Do not hurry. Take as long as
you like. Enjoy the process, and enjoy the light."
I know it takes time and repeated efforts to find and look at and
understand what happened so i can let go. I wish you all the best. Work
at it and you will succeed.
Sincerely
Pete McLaughlin
Sent from my iPad
On Oct 9, 2016, at 1:13 PM, The Resolution of Mind list
<trom@lists.newciv.org> wrote:
*************
The following message is relayed to you by trom@lists.newciv.org
************
Hi Pete,
Thank you for your reply and suggestion.
Something appears to be wrong with what Dennis said, there.
The question that has to be asked is: Is Dennis right?
What he said, does not make sense for me, for at least a couple of
reasons that come to mind for me at this time.
1. What if you are implanted with the following postulates by
beating, pounding, shouting and berating and overwhelm?:
You are stupid!
You are insane!
You will never become anything!
You are no good for nothing!
What is wrong with you?
Get out of here!
Don't touch me!
You will never become successful at anything!
You are a lazy good for nothing bum!
There is something wrong with you.
You can't do anything right!
You will never succeed!
You are a loser!
You can't do anything right!
You need a real good beating, to smarten you up!
You need to have some sense pounded into you!
You are trouble looking for a place to happen!
You screw everything up.
Everything you touch turns to shit!
You don't do anything unless I tell you!
If you need to do anything, you don't do it unless you ask for help
first!
Or the variants:
You don't do anything unless someone helps you, or is watching you.
You don't do anything unless someone is watching you!
You don't do anything unless someone does it for you!
You are a stupid loser!
You are a mistake!
No one likes you!
Who wants you!
You are a good shit, but who likes shit?
I wish you were never born!
I told you many times before, not to touch it!
Or the variant:
I told you many times before, do not touch anything or do anything
unless I tell you too!
You are nothing but a problem!
You stupid fool!
Smarten up, or you will get another good beating!
Get out of here!
Get lost!
Gawd are you stupid!
How do you clear out those negative, blocking, disabling postulates?
As I said before, any idea is only as good as it works.
2. If you can't win, or can't succeed, how do you function or compete
in life?
How do you get a job and hang on to it?
How do you get anywhere in life?
How do you form a meaningful relationship?
Is a person supposed to get on welfare and hide in a dungeon or live
under the bridge for all his life?
Or beg on the streets?
I have heard some homeless people have amassed a lot of money and
bought homes and good cars by being professional beggars on the street.
That is one of the "systems" that Dennis mentions, that humans have
developed for getting things done.
But I do not find that appealing.
David
On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 1:39 PM, The Resolution of Mind list
<trom@lists.newciv.org> wrote:
*************
The following message is relayed to you by trom@lists.newciv.org
************
Hi David
You need to read book "3 Expanding on Level 5" before you start
making goals packages. In there you will find this section:
"The Games Goals
Now the fourth one, there?s a class of goals which are called games
goals. Now a games goal has no meaning outside of games play. That is
the definition; it is a technical definition of a games goal. An
example of a games goal is ?to win? or ?to exploit?, or ?to play?.
Quite clearly the goal ?to win? has no meaning outside of the games
play. The goal ?to exploit? has no meaning outside of games play. The
goal ?to play? has no meaning outside of games play. You see that? So
that?s a technical definition, they?re games goals. Now the datum is
that all games goals are un-erasable. They?re un-erasable. The reason
why they are un-erasable is because the games goal has no meaning
outside of games play, it has no complementary postulates and
therefore it won?t erase."
Dennis did a lot of research between 1978 when he published The
Resolution of Mind and 1994 when he dictated his "Supplementary
Lectures" which i transcribed to produce the additional books in the
series.
Sincerely
Pete Mclaughlin
Sent from my iPad
> On Oct 8, 2016, at 7:20 PM, The Resolution of Mind list
<trom@lists.newciv.org> wrote:
>
> *************
> The following message is relayed to you by trom@lists.newciv.org
> ************
> Pete, or anyone else,
>
> Got any suggestions on how to set up a junior goals package on "To
Win" for L5?
>
> That would cover the following postulates:
>
>
> Must not be allowed to win/Must lose
> Can't win/must not be allowed to win. Must not win.
> Must not be allowed to succeed. Must fail.
>
>
>
>
> (The "To Know" package does not run for me.)
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
> _______________________________________________
> TROM mailing list
> TROM@lists.newciv.org
> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom
_______________________________________________
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