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Hi Marcus,
please find my comments interspersed in the text below.
Thanks for your answer.
You're welcome
I added more questions in your response in case you could clarify it a
bit
more. Don't worry about answering each one of them. Perhaps one paragraph
could answer them all. I just used a lot of questions to try to show you
what is my current level of knowledge since I haven't been in the CoS and
have done very few of other processing besides Trom.
2017-02-09 8:28 GMT-02:00 The Resolution of Mind list
<trom@lists.newciv.org
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Hi Marcus,
Re. Part 1 of your inquiry:
Let's take a look at the command first.
It's quite straight forward:
"Get the idea of being (forced to know)"
(E.g. for the 1st class of the eight classes of overwhelm)
The general key-word in that command is the word "idea".
It specifies the flavor of process we're dealing with.
In order to understand that, please see definition below:
[CONCEPT RUNNING, the preclear ?gets the idea? of knowing or not being
and
holds it, the while looking at his time track. The concept runs out, or
the
somatic it brings on runs out, and the concept itself is run. It is not
addressed at individual incidents but at hundreds. (Scn 8-80, p. 29)]
Now, what is an idea?
This can be described in terms of what it isn't or in terms of
its opposite. E.g.
OBJECTIVE, dictionary definition "of or having to do with a material
object
as distinguished from *a mental concept, idea or belief*."
So an idea can be best considered as "a mental concept" for our
purposes.
That definition of concept running is very clarifying to me. I even read
the book of where it's from very recently but the book didn't contain any
examples so I didn't connect it with level 4.
Actually the definition - which is out of the book 8-80 (Chapter 8, page
19f) -
is a process/command example by itself. I admit, this can easily be
overlooked.
You can have a concept of anything, e.g. a concept of confusion. The top
and bottom
points on the scales of the Chart of Attitudes (See Handbook for
Preclears) make
good concept material. Other good items to run by concept are e.g.
Beauty, Ugliness, Cause of ugliness, Cause of beauty, No-sympathy,
Sympathy,
Good, Evil.
The command line could be: "Get the idea (or concept) of <item>" "hold the
idea/concept of <item>" - PC originates whatever comes up - A.
acknowledges.
One can adapt that easily to solo-auditing requirements. After being
acquaint
with the process you will omit telling yourself the command and ack. and
just put up the idea or concept and hold it in your mind.
In TROM L4 you do the same. Your <item> is one of the "eight classes of
overwhelm" in the order as given in the TROM-materials.
Your analysis of "know" into the two distinct meanings is quite right.
But in my view it is easier to think about it in terms of postulates at
L4.
Namely opposing postulates. (In this case your's would be MNK
while your opponent's is MBK. Which are opposing or conflicting
each other).
The explanatory text in the L4 section of the TROM material talks
about "punch the concept into your mind" or "now punch out the "forced
to know" [note: this is equivalent to: "Must Be Known" (= MBK)
postulate]
Now, I liked this part of your response because it went a little more
into
the specifics. But, I read from previous list contributors which also
suggested the use of pure postulates in level 4 (mind that the idea of
postulate processing is an idea that is still new and confusing to me in
practical manners so I may be using it wrongly here). Some of them
described the overwhelm level as being a situation where there are no
more
opposing postulates since the game has already ended. So I'm supposing
there would be no more MNK in the example you gave. Is that correct
This is the part where it starts getting confusing.
Yes I see. My explanation was not clear enough here. At L4 you're not
required to put up the postulates itself. I've introduced postulates only
to explain what is going on at postulate-level in the case of overwhelm.
From what you write below I can see now that you have a good understanding
in that regard already.
In a moment we go into more detail.
For our reference I place below some definitions that fit in here:
[OVERWHELMING, 1. as a person begins to be unwilling to overwhelm, he, of
course, begins to be unwilling to win and so loses pan-determinism and
sinks
into self-determinism. Games are, for our auditing purposes, "contests in
overwhelmings." The primary overwhelming is to take space. (PAB 80) 2 .
overwhelming does not consist of space, energy et al. It is the idea that
an
overwhelming has occurred. The winner is convinced that he has
overwhelmed the opposing player. The loser is convinced that he has been
overwhelmed. (PAB 80) 3 . to push in too tight. (SH Spec 57, 6109C21)]
[OTHER-DETERMINISM, 1. simply something else giving you orders or
directions. (8ACC-6, 5410CM08) 2 . something has so thoroughly overwhelmed
the pc that he is it. (HCOB 7 May 59)]
So should I get the idea of an artificial complementary postulates
situation MK + MBK with something else which would identify the
overwhelm?
Or should I mockup the game situation (MNK vs MBK) with an extiguishing
of
my MNK postulate? How would that be? Because it seems the example you
gave
me looks very similar to a Level 5 process.
Thanks for giving me a better reality of your level of understanding here.
To give you an explicit answer in the sense of "how you should execute the
command <....>" would be a breach of the auditor's code. Since I'm
not your auditor it would perhaps be excusable. But no, I can't give an
explicit interpretation of the command because a) it could be wrong;
or b) deprive you of some cognitions. Let's see if there is some
work-around possible.
I assume the meaning of the command line in terms of each of its words and
finally in terms of what the whole sentence means is clear to you.
If not, here is word-clearing in a nutshell:
Look up the definition of each word you feel not 100% confident about
in a good dictionary. Clear all unknown words inside the definitions.
Make sentences with the word until you feel confident.
Perhaps a translation into your native language can be useful.
Invent examples for all kinds of overwhelms on any
level you care (physical, emotional, ...)
To add mass you may demonstrate the words and concepts they represent by
means of small objects, clay-mass or draw sketches.
Now, what do you think is the common characteristic or the common idea
behind all those examples you have looked at? What is left as the common
essence, principle, concept or idea inherent in all those examples?
It's what's left when you strip off all the pictures, masses, energies, ...
The things and situations are gone. What's left is the meanings only.
A meaning of course goes hand in hand with a certain feeling or rather
a conviction or opinion (see definition of OVERWHELM above).
It's precisely at the point of overwhelm where the conviction dawns
on the part of the overwhelmed that he has lost now - while the
opponent realizes the fact of his victory. You will probably agree that
those convictions differ somehow according to a specific class of
overwhelm.
A demonstration for an idea/concept:
You sure have at times looked at abstract paintings, haven't you?
You may not have recognized a distinct object in the picture. But you
may still have grasped it's inherent significance. You might have got
the idea the artist had in mind. The meaning often induces a specific
feeling: the feeling like recognition or cognition - in the observer.
The emotions that are evoked (or absent) in the observer are something
else.
....
Do you have an idea/concept of each of the eight classes of overwhelm now?
Is so, that means you can hold the specific concept in your mind somehow.
I say "somehow" because there is no need to worry if this
seems to be difficult at first. It will probably get easier with doing the
exercise.
The conceptual idea will become less and less alien to you. And do not
be surprised to have cognitions along that line in regard of concepts
itself in addition to what L4 offers in regard of the subject of
"overwhelm".
As a general rule: A concept is not a picture, a mass or a mock-up like
you do in e.g. RI. In terms of wavelengths it is much shorter or "lighter".
In that respect it's closer to a postulate but it's not a postulate.
[POSTULATE, n. 1. a self-created truth would be simply the consideration
generated by self. Well, we just borrow the word which is in seldom use in
the
English language, we call that postulate. And we mean by postulate,
selfcreated truth.
He posts something. He puts something up and that’s what a
postulate is. (HPC A6-4, 5608C--) 2. a postulate is, of course, that thing
which is a directed desire or order, or inhibition, or enforcement, on the
part of
the individual in the form of an idea. (2ACC 23A, 5312CM14) 3 . that
selfdetermined
thought which starts, stops or changes past, present or future efforts.
(APIA, p. 33) 4 . is actually a prediction. (5112CM30B)—v. 1 . in Scn the
word
postulate means to cause a thinkingness or consideration. It is a specially
applied word and is defined as causative thinkingness. (FOT, p. 71) 2 . t o
conclude, decide or resolve a problem or to set a pattern for the future
or to nullify
a pattern of the past. (HFP, p. 155) 3 . to generate or “think” a concept.
A
postulate infers conditions and actions rather than just plain thinks. It
has a
dynamic connotation. (SH Spec 84, 6612C13)]
And if it's supposed to be like a Level 5 similar process (I'm makig a
big
assumption now that level 5 is also concept running or very similar)
Yes there is a similarity. But - as we have seen above - it is different
from running a concept. Postulates do represent rather the building blocks
of a concept.
should
I use a mock up or a real object at a distance to represent my opponent?
The command line does not say so, right?
The safe assumption is that it's desirable to avoid any "crutches" to
fulfill the request or command. Keep it as simple as possible.
Never the less you may benefit to find into your final mode of
operation by using some "mental tricks" like a mock-up to start.
Similar to using water-wings when learning to swim. But one wants
to get rid of them as soon as possible.
What would be the main differences of level 4 and level 5 running
regarding
each individual command? Like, how would it be different to run an
overwhelm in level 5 compared to the running of it in level 4? (I'm
asking
this one because Dennis enters in much much more detail about level 5
compared to level 4)
Yes, that's true.
L5 goes through the whole PFC-chart which is composed of 16 lines.
L4 deals with the non-game situations only - or in other words - the
overwhelms only.
Besides that, Level 5 takes apart the situations (including the concepts of
overwhelms) into its postulate components.
Please take a look at the last line of the POSTULATE definition again:
[A postulate infers conditions and *actions* rather than just plain thinks.
It *has a dynamic connotation*. (SH Spec 84, 6612C13)]
In terms of "action" and "dynamic connotation" we see a main difference
to the comparably static character of a thought, idea, concept.
Dennis uses a lot of verbs on the L5 tape which make it clear that
there is a dynamic quality involved.
Contrary to that, you "punch out your concept", hold it there, punch it
out again as necessary ... wait and see what comes up.
That leads immediately to the answer of your 2nd part of the question:
2) Could you describe how was your mental process of doing level 4,
meaning
what words (commands, synonimous of know, etc) did you use and what
visualizations or steps did you go through mentally until new material
showed up.
The mental process, as far as I do it, does not contain any
visualizations,
thinkingness in terms of phrases or symbols. There are no pictures
involved
nor emotions or feelings. Its simply putting up the mental concept
of the overwhelm situation. It could be described as the generic idea,
essence or abstraction of a myriad of exemplary events.
This mental activity will cause the show-up of feelings like guilt,
blame,
shame, regret or even whole scenes. Time break as necessary.
Then repair your demand for havingness by your favorite method.
I hope this shed some light on the issue.
Success
Robin
Marcus
Did that clarify at least some of your questions?
Best
Robin
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