Glenn wrote:
Job was blameless and upright, but did
not have sinless perfection.
Glenn, I like you, and surely do not want to offend you, but this statement
is blasphemy.
To blatantly contradict the Bible for no other reason than because it does
not go along with your theology is blasphemy.
Glenn - I think you realize what you have said here. :-) You have said a perfect person cannot say he is perfect or he would not be perfect. However, Job claimed he had not sinned/perfect. Therefore, Job sinned. :-)
Glenn wrote:
A person who claims to be perfect flatters himself
and is calling
Geneva Study Bible
16:2 All the ways of a man [are] b clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.
(b) He shows by it that man flatters himself in his doings, calling that virtue, which God terms vice.
A person who claims to be perfect flatters himself and is calling it
David Miller wrote:
The Bible teaches that TRUSTING IN WORKS
nullifies grace. It does not teach that works nullify
grace. If it did, then all the righteous men from
Abraham to the apostle John who had good
works would have had the grace of God nullified
in their life. What a
Works relate to the kingdom, salvation is
free James Templeton
-Original
Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 15 October 2002 22:10
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] True or
False Test
Christian living
PREGood to hear from you Bro James! Laura
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you
ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
That's how I see it, and DavidM sees it that way too, if I understand him. It's that perfect thing that gets him all riled up. :-) If I understand him, if you don't believe in the perfect doctrine then you are soft on sin. That just is not correct with me.
My understanding is simple. Works and
Please send a Bible verse for Peter. Thanks.
Remember, Peter says that after we have suffered a while, God will perfect us. He also said, that he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin.
Glenn wrote:
Works nullify grace in salvation.Rom. 4:4-5;
Rom. 11:6.
You are misusing these verses. Neither of these verses say that works
nullify grace.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that
Grace nullifies works. See below.
"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the
election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise
grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace:
otherwise work is no more work." (Rom
Glenn wrote:
Works nullify grace in salvation.Rom. 4:4-5;
Rom. 11:6.
Glenn - You agree below but deny here.
You are misusing these verses. Neither of these verses say that works
nullify grace.
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh
Glenn wrote:
You agree below but deny here.
Glenn, the word nullify means to have the effect of cancelling something
out. When you say that works nullify grace, then you are saying that when a
person does good works, he nullifies grace in his life. That is a
preposterous notion. Maybe you
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Works nullify grace in salvation.Rom. 4:4-5;
Rom. 11:6.
Glenn - You agree below but deny here.
You are misusing these verses. Neither of these verses say that works
nullify grace.
Glenn wrote:
The verses you are using you are misusing.
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The reason you don't believe in holiness is not because of me but because
the sinning doctrine of men makes you feel comfortable and a teaching about
good works and holiness makes you uncomfortable because it means you have
some room to grow some more.
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:31:29 + "Michael Douglas" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
..the key is will God ask us to do something that
He does not equip us for? Do you think He
will?
MD, (but) God is not the only agent at work in
this life (as we know it now)--so is Satan
i.e.,did God equip us
Glenn wrote:
YOU are the reason I don't believe in perfection.
You seem to hit the ceiling over this pet doctrine.
David Miller wrote:
I haven't hit any ceiling. I'm just pushing you a little
further than I have in the past.
The reason you don't believe in holiness is not because
of me
Gary wrote:
... did God equip us for this (which DavidM
is reluctant to deal with):
(e.g.) Is 64:6 NIV
All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind
our sins sweep us away (?)
Why would
Glenn wrote:
YOU are the reason I don't believe in perfection.
You seem to hit the ceiling over this pet doctrine.
David Miller wrote:
I haven't hit any ceiling. I'm just pushing you a little
further than I have in the past.
The reason you don't believe in holiness is not because
of me
Glenn wrote:
Second, it is sin to judge my motives. You
are doing this which means you are not perfect.
I'm not judging your motives; I'm revealing them. :-)
Was Jesus sinning when he revealed the motives of men? What passage of
Scripture do you base your belief upon that tells you that
Glenn - Your question makes no sense to me? You can trust in the Mormon walk, I will trust in Jesus. I have no backup plan.
DAVEH: Glenn.have you ever considered that Jesus may show you the way to heaven, but you have to walk the path he provided? Do you think the Lord will drag you to
Glenn wrote:
No way. This perfection doctrine has you blinded.
As I have said before, works nullify grace.
This is not a Biblical statement. The Bible teaches that TRUSTING IN WORKS
nullifies grace. It does not teach that works nullify grace. If it did,
then all the righteous men from
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Laura wrote:
So Glenn, You are saying that faith alone
is enough but that works are an evidence
of this faith - Right??
But faith alone is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that
justification is of faith, NOT OF WORKS. It
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] True or False
Test
I am
understanding, because of his perfection doctrine, that David does not believe
your comment below. Either he does or he does not. This is a
"sacred cow' with him that distinguishes him from others. It seems to me
most everyon
OK, then agreed.
On the contrary, Glenn, I agree completely with Michael's statement and believe it. I teach it that way all the time.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
Glenn wrote:
No way. This perfection doctrine has you blinded.
As I have said before, works nullify grace
This is not a Biblical statement. The Bible teaches that TRUSTING IN WORKS
nullifies grace. It does not teach that works nullify grace. If it did,
then all the righteous men from Abraham
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Glenn wrote:
No way. This perfection doctrine has you blinded.
As I have said before, works nullify grace
This is not a Biblical statement. The Bible teaches that TRUSTING IN WORKS
nullifies grace. It does not teach that works nullify grace. If it
Christian living is perfected by works. Salvation is not of works. Salvation is not perfected by works. I gave the Bible for this when I answered the true or false test.
Back to the Bible. The Bible teaches that faith, which is a work of grace
in our lives, is PERFECTED by works, NOT
Michael D: Just a couple observations/questions to ponder here, guys:
1. I would think that ...Be ye prefect as your Father which in heaven is perfect... is an injunction not a definition. The question to me is what is perfection? A clear definition (based on scripture) might help there.
Again, you have made my point. No one is perfect as Jesus was perfect.
Read what I wrote again. Notice the *IF*. You are taking this way too
personal. I said, "*IF* you think you, NOT BEING PERFECT, are able to judge
who is perfect." I'm not judging you either way. I'm saying that if you or
PREI was taught that imputed righteousness means that we receive the
righteousness of Christ because we can't possible be completely righteous on
our own. Laura
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you
ought to answer every man.
Laura wrote:
I was taught that imputed righteousness means that
we receive the righteousness of Christ because we
can't possible be completely righteous on our own.
Right, but that imputed righteousness is not like some placard that you hold
up and trick God into thinking you are perfect when
I agree Laura
Laura wrote:
I was taught that imputed righteousness means that
we receive the righteousness of Christ because we
can't possible be completely righteous on our own.
Right, but that imputed righteousness is not like some placard that you hold
up and trick God into thinking you
Glenn wrote:
No one is perfect as Jesus was perfect.
That is your opinion, but the Bible disagrees with you.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is
righteous, even as he is righteous. (1 John 3:7)
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; YET NOT I, BUT
The verses you are using you are misusing.
Glenn wrote:
No one is perfect as Jesus was perfect.
That is your opinion, but the Bible disagrees with you.
"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is
righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 John 3:7)
"I am crucified
INothing we can do makes us righteous. We are righteous because we are justified by faith in Christ Jesus. Works don't justify BUT the justified man works. I read that the other day and it made sense to me. Laura
Glenn wrote:
No one is perfect as Jesus was perfect.
That is your opinion, but the
Laura wrote:
Nothing we can do makes us righteous. We are
righteous because we are justified by faith in Christ
Jesus. Works don't justify BUT the justified man
works. I read that the other day and it made sense
to me.
Amen. This is a good way to say it too.
Peace be with you.
Glenn wrote:
The verses you are using you are misusing.
No, I am not misusing them. Read the whole epistle of 1 John and believe
it.
Glenn wrote:
No one is perfect as Jesus was perfect.
Let's look at the first verse that I quoted:
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth
Glenn wrote:
You're playing the word game here.
You knew full well I was talking about
adults.
I'm not playing any word game at all. This was revealed to me by the Holy
Spirit. Jesus grew and learned obedience through the things that he
suffered. Yet we call him perfect. Why is that?
Blainer) To David. I deleted a whole bunch of stuff yesterday, and I
think your post on BH Roberts and the History of the LDS Church was one
of them. If you still have it, would you mind reposting it, please??
On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:41:14 -0400 David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
I would
Following are my answers to the test:
True or False
1. Justification comes by Faith Alone (meaning only faith -- faith
without good works)
False
2. A person who says he has faith but not good works is justified
before God.
False
3. A person is condemned by works if his works are
Michael D:
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:32:59 -0400
Following are my answers to the test:
True or False
1. Justificatio
We need to consider the type of justification James is referring to here. The context is talking about the relationship between the Christian and his neighbor. In context James is saying that we are justified before man by our good works. Paul uses the same example in Romans 4 with Abraham. This
PRESo Glenn, You are saying that faith alone is enough but that works are an
evicence of this faith - Right?? Laura
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you
ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do
Glenn wrote:
We need to consider the type of justification James
is referring to here. The context is talking about the
relationship between the Christian and his neighbor.
Wrong.
I've heard this exegesis before my theologians who err on the side of grace.
Get your head out of their books
Yes, However, one might need to define Biblical faith. Mormons seem to think intellectual belief is Biblical faith. It is not so.
I have faith (intellectual) that George Washington was Prez of the United States. This is the kind of faith the devil has. He believes in Jesus Christ, but he has not
I would like to see several people take the following test, especially Glenn
and Laura. :-)
True or False
1. Justification comes by Faith Alone (meaning only faith -- faith without
good works)
2. A person who says he has faith but not good works is justified before
God.
3. A person is
In a message dated 10/10/2002 4:52:15 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
True or False
1. Justification comes by Faith Alone (meaning only faith -- faith without
good works) True but if the faith is sincere works SHOULD follow
2. A person who says he has faith but not good
Tell me these are not trick questions and I will try to answer them. I am wondering if you are confused over this perfection doctrine. I just can't buy perfection. One has to redefine perfection to believe in it. NO one is perfect in his thoughts. No one loves perfectly, etc.,
I would like to see
Glenn wrote:
Tell me these are not trick questions and I will
try to answer them.
These are not trick questions.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you
ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6)
True or False
1. Justification comes by Faith Alone (meaning only faith -- faith without
good works)
True, meaning Salvation comes by faith alone. Justification defined: just as if I never sinned.
Abraham justified through faith Gen. 15:6
No one can earn justification Rom. 3:22-24
Works nullify
I think the answers given to the test so far will lead to some very
interesting discussions. I'm going out of town for several days so I may
not be able to respond much until next week. I hope to see some more
answers from others when I get back.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
--
PRESee you expected Glenn and I to answer the same way. Actually I don't find
that much fault with his answers but I look at some of it differently. Laura
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you
ought to answer every man. (Colossians
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