Possibly curmudgeonly thoughts about the DDoS and architecture... (was Re: [twitter-dev] Re: The silence is deafening....)

2009-08-08 Thread Nick Arnett
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Dewald Pretorius dpr...@gmail.com wrote:


 Twitter needs to realize that our apps are NOT still down because of
 the ongoing denial-of-service attack. That's a cop-out to blame the
 attack.

 Our apps are still down because they cannot allow known, white-listed
 IP addresses through the defenses.

 And that is why I am getting frustrated, because I have asked multiple
 times months ago that they distinguish between friend and foe, and not
 kill everyone on sight when they are attacked.


What make you think that they can?  What if the DDoS attacks are spoofing
white-listed IP addresses sometimes?  That would totally fit with using 302s
as a response.

It's not a good idea to make assumptions about what they can and cannot do.
For Twitter to have grown as large as it is, I assume that they have some
very competent IT people, who surely are doing the best they can.  Even
though Twitter isn't taking a direct revenue hit on this, I'm sure that they
know that the damage to their reputation could cost them more and more as
this continues.

Hmmm... now does the idea of publishing tweetstreams as distributed RSS
feeds sound more attractive?  If there's a criticism to be leveled, seems to
me it should be at the dependence on a single point of failure, not their
inability to cope with the inevitable sophisticated attack.  DDoS and such
would have a far harder time causing this kind of trouble on a distributed
system.

As I've said before, this isn't really a criticism of Twitter - what they've
created shows the demand for this kind of service.  But imagine if right now
all the dead applications could fall back to reading RSS-published
twitterstreams instead of depending entirely on Twitter for them?

Hope that doesn't sound like I'm taking advantage of a bad situation, but I
really think this points out the serious limitations of their architecture,
not the competence of their IT people.  And no, those aren't the same
things.

Nick


Re: Possibly curmudgeonly thoughts about the DDoS and architecture... (was Re: [twitter-dev] Re: The silence is deafening....)

2009-08-08 Thread Dewald Pretorius

Nick,

Yes, they have very competent people. My criticism is not leveled
against the API team. They are not the ones responsible for the edge
defenses.

But this thing has happened every single time so far. Twitter comes
under attack, and the response is to simply swing the machine gun in a
360 degree arc. That's probably what I would do, but I am a lone guy,
I do not have a company full of super competent and smart people. And
the after the first time, I would make damn certain that I don't do it
again, and I would make a list of who not to shoot the next time
around.

Dewald

On Aug 8, 10:41 pm, Nick Arnett nick.arn...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Dewald Pretorius dpr...@gmail.com wrote:

  Twitter needs to realize that our apps are NOT still down because of
  the ongoing denial-of-service attack. That's a cop-out to blame the
  attack.

  Our apps are still down because they cannot allow known, white-listed
  IP addresses through the defenses.

  And that is why I am getting frustrated, because I have asked multiple
  times months ago that they distinguish between friend and foe, and not
  kill everyone on sight when they are attacked.

 What make you think that they can?  What if the DDoS attacks are spoofing
 white-listed IP addresses sometimes?  That would totally fit with using 302s
 as a response.

 It's not a good idea to make assumptions about what they can and cannot do.
 For Twitter to have grown as large as it is, I assume that they have some
 very competent IT people, who surely are doing the best they can.  Even
 though Twitter isn't taking a direct revenue hit on this, I'm sure that they
 know that the damage to their reputation could cost them more and more as
 this continues.

 Hmmm... now does the idea of publishing tweetstreams as distributed RSS
 feeds sound more attractive?  If there's a criticism to be leveled, seems to
 me it should be at the dependence on a single point of failure, not their
 inability to cope with the inevitable sophisticated attack.  DDoS and such
 would have a far harder time causing this kind of trouble on a distributed
 system.

 As I've said before, this isn't really a criticism of Twitter - what they've
 created shows the demand for this kind of service.  But imagine if right now
 all the dead applications could fall back to reading RSS-published
 twitterstreams instead of depending entirely on Twitter for them?

 Hope that doesn't sound like I'm taking advantage of a bad situation, but I
 really think this points out the serious limitations of their architecture,
 not the competence of their IT people.  And no, those aren't the same
 things.

 Nick