Re: [TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

[Xuanrui Qi]

[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

I think this thread has mostly come to an end, but please let me add my
five cents.

I agree with Julia on most points. A blanket ban on Russian academics
participating in conferences would definitely not help to reduce their
minuscule (if an) support for the Putin regime and its aggression.
Rather it would probably create more of a sense of isolation and
disillusionment.

I also find the proposition that reducing the Russian people's support
of the Putin regime would bring a halt to its warmongering to be
questionable an a bit naive (without offense to anyone).

It is simply not true that the Putin regime is in place because there
is widespread support in Russia. Most Germans in 1939 definitely
weren't Nazis, and most Americans aren't racists either. (I hope I
don't get proven wrong on the latter.) But that's to say even in a
democracy, one needs to consider a multitude of societal factors before
drawing blanket conclusions, and Russia is a country ruled by a
dictatorial regime appropriately characterized as fascist.

I should also note that many Russian academics have been supporting the
anti-war, anti-aggression movement in the face of severe consequences.
So, should those academics wish to leave their country and pursue
positions in, say, Western Europe, wouldn't ETAPS be an important venue
to facilitate these moves?

Finally, I would like to add that we should not make this a Russia vs
the West issue, or demarcate things along these lines (this sort of
thinking offends me quite a bit). Instead this is a matter of
conscience. It's warmongering imperialists vs the people, and
oppression vs the oppressed.

And, at the end of the day, we the people shall prevail, and we will
prevail.

Best,
Xuanrui

On Wed, 2022-03-09 at 10:38 -0500, Julia Belyakova wrote:
> [ The Types Forum,
> http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]
> 
> Thank you all for the comments and thoughtful discussion.
> 
> Being a Russian citizen, I don't feel entitled to argue on the ETAPS
> decision, and emotionally, I understand the arguments in favor of
> that
> decision.
> I also acknowledge the argument about total isolation of the
> population
> potentially sending the right message to the population:
> 
> > At this stage, the whole essence of large-scale sanctions is to
> > inflict pain on the Russian population, with the aim to reduce
> > their
> > support of the Putin regime.
> > 
> > In this context, the larger part of the population is targeted, the
> > more impact sanctions are going to have.
> > 
> > Russian researchers are part of the whole population and one of the
> > ways to hit them is to prohibit their participation in
> > international
> > conferences.
> 
> However, not all the means help the cause.
> 
> I would like to emphasize that there are a lot of people in Russia
> who do
> not and have not supported Putin and the ongoing terrible war in
> Ukraine.
> I think it is not unreasonable to assume that the Russian scientific
> community, especially those who used to attend international
> conferences
> and mingle with the international community, are the ones who are
> most
> likely to already be in opposition to Putin.
> Therefore, I do not see how targeting the population that does not
> support
> Putin can help with the goal of reducing Putin's support.
> Isolation can also make it harder for people to find sources of
> information
> and see the real picture, playing into Putin's propaganda about the
> entire
> world hating Russia. Several days ago, the few remaining independent
> media
> have been blocked or forced to stop writing about the war; Twitter
> and
> Facebook have been blocked, too, and other platforms are probably
> going to
> be blocked soon as well.
> 
> Note that Russia is not a democratic country. Normal processes such
> as
> voting against the regime in an election have not been properly
> operating
> there for years. Official numbers of overwhelming Putin's support
> should be
> taken with a sack of salt.
> 
> Since last week, people spreading "misinformation" and "discrediting"
> the
> Russian army can face up to 15 years in prison. There haven't been
> 15-years
> convictions yet, but the new law is already working, the first
> sentences
> have been issued, a number of anti-war protesters have been beaten
> and
> tortured by the police, the first students have been expelled from
> universities for anti-war protests and posts.
> Opposing the regime had not been easy even before the new law, and if
> you
> are interested, I think this thread
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1499464
> 037708537861.html__;!!IBzWLUs!FxAKdLfjzQnbTkxz-W3-
> 5ggfdA5LYC9B4RvpB_4974izv-urcMH-M6_A5ZAh33U7pVyPl9bIm5U$ > captures
> the
> situation accurately.
> 
> None of this, of course, compares or lessens the suffering of
> Ukrainian
> people in any way.
> I am devastated and ashamed by Putin's 

Re: [TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

[Martin Lester]

[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

Hi all.

Several posters have drawn parallels with other boycotts in the past,
academic or otherwise.

Sporting boycotts have some similarities. The following philosophy
article analyses some arguments for and against sporting boycotts:

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.jstor.org/stable/24355089__;!!IBzWLUs!Bj6ROU9fP2NPwtDScWOEWYUhbBp-6u556BwAvDh2T9uOoBFBG-bPKagU7KxMPSU-1Bzs00X4wgk$
 

Several of the arguments made in the article have also been made in
this thread. You may find it insightful.

Yours,

Martin Lester.

Re: [TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

[Nicolai Kraus]

[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

Dear Sergiy,

like everyone who has posted on this list, I am absolutely horrified by
what is happening in Ukraine, and it is hard for me to even begin to
imagine what you are going through. I believe we agree that Putin's regime
is to blame, not the Russian population. That's why I feel this statement
is not fair:

On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 12:12 PM Sergiy Bogomolov  wrote:

> * At the same time, upon the commencement of the war in Ukraine, the
> Western governments seem to have learnt the lesson and have devised
> the sanction regime which should hurt the Russian population as a
> whole and make them finally give some thoughts about the decisions of
> their government and the fact  that these might be in fact
> counterproductive to their prosperity.


I don't think researchers in Russia need to be excluded from international
events in order to "finally give some thoughts about the decision of their
government". I'm worried that such a statement contributes to shifting the
blame from the regime to the general population. As far as I'm aware, the
huge majority of researchers in Russia oppose Putin's government. Opponents
of Putin in- and outside of Russia should work together rather than fight
each other. While the Russian government claims to be legitimized through
elections, these are not elections according to Western standards. I assume
that the support Putin has in the Russian population mostly stems from
propaganda and censorship, and researchers attending international
conferences are unlikely to be misled. On the contrary, isolating them from
the international community might make them more susceptible to censorship.

On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 12:12 PM Sergiy Bogomolov  wrote:

> * To everybody who suggests overturning the decision of ETAPS
> organisers I suggest the following thought experiment. Imagine you go
> to bed without knowing you are going to be alive in the morning (as
> Russian army pursues indiscriminate bombing of residential areas;
> including the city of Kharkiv where I grew up). Imagine getting up in
> the morning and calling your relatives to check out whether they are
> still alive. If you were in such a situation, would you still be
> willing to allow the Russian affiliated scientists to participate in
> the conference? This is the reality myself and all the Ukrainians are
> living through. Now, consider whether prohibiting the participation of
> Russian affiliated scientists -- who did not participate at ETAPS en
> masse anyway -- which could bring the end of war a step closer
> outweighs the arguments to let the Russian affiliated scientists
> participate in the conference.
>

This thought is terrifying and I'm deeply sorry that you are in this
situation. But if excluding Russian scientists could get us closer to the
end of the war, I think many Russian scientists would exclude themselves in
a flash. Yes, I would still want to allow Russian-affiliated scientists to
attend conferences, please let's not turn this into a "Russians against
Ukrainians" situation when it's really "Putin against everyone who is sane".

Best wishes,
Nicolai
(Not sure whether it's relevant, but I'm neither Russian nor Ukrainian.)


On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 12:12 PM Sergiy Bogomolov  wrote:

> [ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list
> ]
>
> Let me start by saying that I strongly support the ETAPS decision to
> ban the participation of Russian affiliated scientists at the
> conference.
>
> The rationale is the as follows:
>
> *  The ongoing war in Ukraine is at least partially due to the weak
> response of the Western countries to the Russian invasion of Ukraine
> in 2014 and Georgia in 2008. In fact, the Western countries introduced
> very targeted sanctions which, e.g., banned some Russian officials
> from entering the US (which they did not care about anyway). At the
> same time -- exactly in line with the arguments proposed by the folks
> who want to overturn the decision of ETAPS organisers -- the broad
> Russian population did not bear the burden of the sanctions. Have
> these sanctions helped? No, they have not. In fact, these only
> reassured the Russian regime that the West is "weak" and they can go
> ahead with a fully-fledged war in Ukraine without fearing any
> implications. In other words, all the efforts to change the course of
> actions of the Russian government without negatively impacting the
> Russian population have failed.
>
> * At the same time, upon the commencement of the war in Ukraine, the
> Western governments seem to have learnt the lesson and have devised
> the sanction regime which should hurt the Russian population as a
> whole and make them finally give some thoughts about the decisions of
> their government and the fact  that these might be in fact
> counterproductive to their prosperity. This is an unfortunate reality
> that the West has to resolve to this kind of 

Re: [TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

[Sergiy Bogomolov]

[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

> In a previous email you said Russian scientists "... did not participate at 
> ETAPS en
> masse anyway". Can you explain how excluding them from ETAPS will have any 
> impact on the Russian population (considering also the percentage of the 
> population that belongs to the "computer scientist" category) ?

I appreciate that this would be mostly a symbolic step which would
illustrate that the whole civilized world stands against Russian
aggression.

At the same time, will, e.g., Netflix stopping its operations in
Russia (as was referenced by Alastair), have any major impact on the
outcome of the war? I do not think so.

But, if every company and every person does something to oppose
Russia, all these actions together will have a huge impact on Russia.

In general, if one was to follow the line of reasoning suggested by
folks willing to remove the ban on Russian affiliated scientists
attending ETAPS, one could pose a question: Shouldn't all
international companies just keep their operations Russia and sit out
the war?

This is about standing on high moral ground and making sure that one
does the right thing to stop the war and avoid Ukrainian people being
killed -- unfortunately, it seems that there are a number of people in
this community who do *not* share these beliefs, which makes me very
sad.

Thanks, Sergiy


>
> Best,
> Radu
>
> > On 9 Mar 2022, at 13:43, Sergiy Bogomolov  wrote:
> >
> > [ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]
> >
> >> Banning scientists from ETAPS won't do anything to bring the end of war a 
> >> step closer.
> >> Banning Netflix, McDonalds, Visa, Mastercard, etc., etc., from Russia, and 
> >> ceasing to purchase fossil fuels from Russia might. Banning scientific 
> >> conferences won't have any impact.
> >
> > Alastair: Thanks for your comment. I am afraid I don't really agree
> > with this statement.
> >
> > At this stage, the whole essence of large-scale sanctions is to
> > inflict pain on the Russian population, with the aim to reduce their
> > support of the Putin regime.
> >
> > In this context, the larger part of the population is targeted, the
> > more impact sanctions are going to have.
> >
> > Russian researchers are part of the whole population and one of the
> > ways to hit them is to prohibit their participation in international
> > conferences.
> >
> > In other words, I see the step of ETAPS organisers -- similar to
> > banning Netflix, etc. -- as yet another tool to target a particular
> > demographic, which the West should deploy to stop the war.
> >
> > I hope this makes sense.
> >
> > Thanks, Sergiy
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Ally
> >>
> >> 
> >> From: Types-list  on behalf of 
> >> Sergiy Bogomolov 
> >> Sent: 09 March 2022 10:43
> >> To: types 
> >> Subject: Re: [TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending
> >>
> >> [ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list 
> >> ]
> >>
> >> Let me start by saying that I strongly support the ETAPS decision to
> >> ban the participation of Russian affiliated scientists at the
> >> conference.
> >>
> >> The rationale is the as follows:
> >>
> >> *  The ongoing war in Ukraine is at least partially due to the weak
> >> response of the Western countries to the Russian invasion of Ukraine
> >> in 2014 and Georgia in 2008. In fact, the Western countries introduced
> >> very targeted sanctions which, e.g., banned some Russian officials
> >> from entering the US (which they did not care about anyway). At the
> >> same time -- exactly in line with the arguments proposed by the folks
> >> who want to overturn the decision of ETAPS organisers -- the broad
> >> Russian population did not bear the burden of the sanctions. Have
> >> these sanctions helped? No, they have not. In fact, these only
> >> reassured the Russian regime that the West is "weak" and they can go
> >> ahead with a fully-fledged war in Ukraine without fearing any
> >> implications. In other words, all the efforts to change the course of
> >> actions of the Russian government without negatively impacting the
> >> Russian population have failed.
> >>
> >> * At the same time, upon the commencement of the war in Ukraine, the
> >> Western governments seem to have learnt the lesson and have devised
> >> the sanction regime which should hurt the Russian population as a
> >> whole and make them finally give some thoughts about the decisions of
> >> their government and the fact  that these might be in fact
> >> counterproductive to their prosperity. This is an unfortunate reality
> >> that the West has to resolve to this kind of approach, but I believe
> >> there are only a limited number of ways to stop the war without ending
> >> up in a direct military confrontation between the West and Russia.
> >>
> >> * To everybody who suggests overturning the decision of ETAPS
> >> organisers 

Re: [TYPES] ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

[Jon Sterling]

[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

To other members of the TYPES list,

I would like to bring to your attention that I have learned that this has been 
subject to an editorial style of moderation, so there may be people whose 
points of view have not been heard because the moderator decided (in his words) 
that their perspectives "did not add to the discussion". Therefore I would be 
happy to continue this discussion elsewhere, but I will not be contributing 
further to this thread.

On a broader note, I realize this is a very fraught topic and that people have 
good reasons for holding the views they do. I hope that as a community we can 
find a way to talk about it that is respectful and also cognizant of the 
difficulty of the issues that we are facing now.

Best wishes,
Jon Sterling


> On Mar 9, 2022, at 5:07 PM, Fritz Henglein  wrote:
> 
> [ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]
> 
> We may very well be in a situation analogous to the Fall of 1939 in
> Germany: The outbreak of an eventually humongous war, initiated then by an
> invasion of  Poland, now of Ukraine where Ukraine is quite overtly not the
> final goal, judging by both open announcements and leaked documents out of
> Moscow; a well-organized dictator with a penchant for effective mass
> propaganda, enjoying high popularity with a majority determined (or forced
> to) endure economic isolation and drinking Ersatzkaffee without significant
> protests; and clever politician speculating (not without reason) that the
> on-paper-superior Western powers are too indifferent, too afraid or too
> divided (or any combination of that) to mount an effective resistance.
> 
> And where researchers and academics are pressured to display allegiance --
> or to flee the country.  As courageous as the recent joint protest by
> Russian academics was (as are the ongoing street protests by the few, but
> stunningly courageous, on the streets of Russia), it *sadly* seems, at this
> point, that an aloof academic (or sports or cultural) global community will
> provide more fuel for fostering the impression that the West is harmless
> and afraid than channeling balanced reporting and openness back and forth
> across the new bloody iron curtain.
> 
> My *gut* reaction was that ETAPS overstepped their mandate by being overtly
> political.  On second thought it's hard to see how whatever they -- and
> others like us organizing events -- decided could *not* be political.
> Maybe this is the time we should lobby our funding agencies to provide
> added funding for scientists from Russia and Belarus who may be looking for
> interesting positions abroad, such as those who may make it to ETAPS
> somehow (in my mind the sole reason for keeping a sneaky door open to
> (Bela)Russian participants).
> 
> At home we and our neighbors are preparing for the arrival of Ukrainian
> refugees. And of Russian and Belarussian refugees.
> 
> Fritz
> 
> On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 3:05 PM Sergiy Bogomolov  wrote:
> 
>> [ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list
>> ]
>> 
>>> Banning scientists from ETAPS won't do anything to bring the end of war
>> a step closer.
>>> Banning Netflix, McDonalds, Visa, Mastercard, etc., etc., from Russia,
>> and ceasing to purchase fossil fuels from Russia might. Banning scientific
>> conferences won't have any impact.
>> 
>> Alastair: Thanks for your comment. I am afraid I don't really agree
>> with this statement.
>> 
>> At this stage, the whole essence of large-scale sanctions is to
>> inflict pain on the Russian population, with the aim to reduce their
>> support of the Putin regime.
>> 
>> In this context, the larger part of the population is targeted, the
>> more impact sanctions are going to have.
>> 
>> Russian researchers are part of the whole population and one of the
>> ways to hit them is to prohibit their participation in international
>> conferences.
>> 
>> In other words, I see the step of ETAPS organisers -- similar to
>> banning Netflix, etc. -- as yet another tool to target a particular
>> demographic, which the West should deploy to stop the war.
>> 
>> I hope this makes sense.
>> 
>> Thanks, Sergiy
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Cheers
>>> 
>>> Ally
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: Types-list  on behalf of
>> Sergiy Bogomolov 
>>> Sent: 09 March 2022 10:43
>>> To: types 
>>> Subject: Re: [TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending
>>> 
>>> [ The Types Forum,
>> http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]
>>> 
>>> Let me start by saying that I strongly support the ETAPS decision to
>>> ban the participation of Russian affiliated scientists at the
>>> conference.
>>> 
>>> The rationale is the as follows:
>>> 
>>> *  The ongoing war in Ukraine is at least partially due to the weak
>>> response of the Western countries to the Russian invasion of Ukraine
>>> in 2014 and Georgia in 2008. In fact, the Western 

Re: [TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

[Fritz Henglein]

[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

We may very well be in a situation analogous to the Fall of 1939 in
Germany: The outbreak of an eventually humongous war, initiated then by an
invasion of  Poland, now of Ukraine where Ukraine is quite overtly not the
final goal, judging by both open announcements and leaked documents out of
Moscow; a well-organized dictator with a penchant for effective mass
propaganda, enjoying high popularity with a majority determined (or forced
to) endure economic isolation and drinking Ersatzkaffee without significant
protests; and clever politician speculating (not without reason) that the
on-paper-superior Western powers are too indifferent, too afraid or too
divided (or any combination of that) to mount an effective resistance.

And where researchers and academics are pressured to display allegiance --
or to flee the country.  As courageous as the recent joint protest by
Russian academics was (as are the ongoing street protests by the few, but
stunningly courageous, on the streets of Russia), it *sadly* seems, at this
point, that an aloof academic (or sports or cultural) global community will
provide more fuel for fostering the impression that the West is harmless
and afraid than channeling balanced reporting and openness back and forth
across the new bloody iron curtain.

My *gut* reaction was that ETAPS overstepped their mandate by being overtly
political.  On second thought it's hard to see how whatever they -- and
others like us organizing events -- decided could *not* be political.
Maybe this is the time we should lobby our funding agencies to provide
added funding for scientists from Russia and Belarus who may be looking for
interesting positions abroad, such as those who may make it to ETAPS
somehow (in my mind the sole reason for keeping a sneaky door open to
(Bela)Russian participants).

At home we and our neighbors are preparing for the arrival of Ukrainian
refugees. And of Russian and Belarussian refugees.

Fritz

On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 3:05 PM Sergiy Bogomolov  wrote:

> [ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list
> ]
>
> > Banning scientists from ETAPS won't do anything to bring the end of war
> a step closer.
> > Banning Netflix, McDonalds, Visa, Mastercard, etc., etc., from Russia,
> and ceasing to purchase fossil fuels from Russia might. Banning scientific
> conferences won't have any impact.
>
> Alastair: Thanks for your comment. I am afraid I don't really agree
> with this statement.
>
> At this stage, the whole essence of large-scale sanctions is to
> inflict pain on the Russian population, with the aim to reduce their
> support of the Putin regime.
>
> In this context, the larger part of the population is targeted, the
> more impact sanctions are going to have.
>
> Russian researchers are part of the whole population and one of the
> ways to hit them is to prohibit their participation in international
> conferences.
>
> In other words, I see the step of ETAPS organisers -- similar to
> banning Netflix, etc. -- as yet another tool to target a particular
> demographic, which the West should deploy to stop the war.
>
> I hope this makes sense.
>
> Thanks, Sergiy
>
>
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Ally
> >
> > 
> > From: Types-list  on behalf of
> Sergiy Bogomolov 
> > Sent: 09 March 2022 10:43
> > To: types 
> > Subject: Re: [TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending
> >
> > [ The Types Forum,
> http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]
> >
> > Let me start by saying that I strongly support the ETAPS decision to
> > ban the participation of Russian affiliated scientists at the
> > conference.
> >
> > The rationale is the as follows:
> >
> > *  The ongoing war in Ukraine is at least partially due to the weak
> > response of the Western countries to the Russian invasion of Ukraine
> > in 2014 and Georgia in 2008. In fact, the Western countries introduced
> > very targeted sanctions which, e.g., banned some Russian officials
> > from entering the US (which they did not care about anyway). At the
> > same time -- exactly in line with the arguments proposed by the folks
> > who want to overturn the decision of ETAPS organisers -- the broad
> > Russian population did not bear the burden of the sanctions. Have
> > these sanctions helped? No, they have not. In fact, these only
> > reassured the Russian regime that the West is "weak" and they can go
> > ahead with a fully-fledged war in Ukraine without fearing any
> > implications. In other words, all the efforts to change the course of
> > actions of the Russian government without negatively impacting the
> > Russian population have failed.
> >
> > * At the same time, upon the commencement of the war in Ukraine, the
> > Western governments seem to have learnt the lesson and have devised
> > the sanction regime which should hurt the Russian population as a
> > whole and make them finally give 

Re: [TYPES] ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

[Talia Ringer]

[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

Yes, there was an academic boycott on South Africa. And the general
consensus in retrospect by scholars of South Africa is that it accomplished
nothing beyond sanctions except for "sending a message," and again at the
cost of isolating academics who happened to be from there. It was sharply
controversial at the time among those who were strongly anti-apartheid, and
rightly so.

Signaling is not worth breaking the ethics code and ruining careers.


On Wed, Mar 9, 2022, 5:55 AM Philip Wadler  wrote:

> [ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list
> ]
>
> To add to Ricardo's examples, during Apartheid, there was an academic
> boycott of South Africa as part of a larger cultural boycott, similar to
> the cultural boycott of Russia we see beginning today. This included not
> accepting academic visitors affiliated with South Africa, even though many
> South African academics opposed Apartheid. Treating Russian institutions
> differently at this time can contribute to a cumulative effect. Failing to
> treat them differently sends the message that we don't care. Go well, -- P
>
>
> .   \ Philip Wadler, Professor of Theoretical Computer Science,
> .   /\ School of Informatics, University of Edinburgh
> .  /  \ and Senior Research Fellow, IOHK
> .
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/__;!!IBzWLUs!ByhpRFSKZ3IGEazSYRk8ZiPNOU_tVRrh8Q_83QpOs_9HzrHFz55B0xkCfLYICuE4ayzyajgRdTs$
>
>
>
> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 at 20:29, Ricardo Medel 
> wrote:
>
> > This email was sent to you by someone outside the University.
> > You should only click on links or attachments if you are certain that the
> > email is genuine and the content is safe.
> >
> > [ The Types Forum,
> http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list
> > ]
> >
> > German scientists were banned from conferences after the First World War.
> >
> > Chinese scientists (even those working/studying at the USA) were banned
> > from attending a NASA conference in 2013.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > El mar., 8 de marzo de 2022 17:25, Gabriel Scherer <
> > gabriel.sche...@gmail.com> escribió:
> >
> > > [ The Types Forum,
> > http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list
> > > ]
> > >
> > > Do people know of any precedent of a conference forbidding people
> working
> > > in a certain country to attend?
> > >
> > > (Of course, on a regular basis we hold conferences in countries that
> make
> > > it difficult for some of our colleagues to attend. But this sounds very
> > > different from the conference itself forbidding certain researchers
> from
> > > attending on the basis of their country of employment.)
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 7:33 PM Neel Krishnaswami <
> > > neelakantan.krishnasw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > [ The Types Forum,
> > > http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list
> > > > ]
> > > >
> > > > The ETAPS website (
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.etaps.org__;!!IBzWLUs!HUevd2N5Ms-2WYC1sMdH93ef4xxRy4BjZ9KD0I8SPwLGGpv-Rk7u_Emgl9qMMyLGK4ex90o0Cm0$
> > > > ) has the following text on its
> > > > front page:
> > > >
> > > > > The ETAPS association strongly condemns the war against Ukraine
> > > > > launched by President Putin. It is an intolerable breach of
> > > > > international law and a crime against humanity, unfolding in Europe
> > > > > now. Therefore, until further notice, ETAPS 2022 cannot accept
> > > > > registrations from affiliates of Russian research institutions or
> > > > > companies.
> > > >
> > > > While I'm as opposed to illegal wars of aggression as anyone else,
> this
> > > > feels like a serious mistake.
> > > >
> > > > There are many Russians (such as Jetbrains corporation) who have
> taken
> > > > the serious personal risk of publically opposing the war, and barring
> > > > them from our conferences due to their nationality feels wrong to me.
> > > >
> > > > It may well be that the financial sanctions regime means that
> > > > registration payments cannot be accepted, but that is quite different
> > > > from barring them personally.
> > > >
> > > > What do the rest of you think?
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Neel
> > > >
> > >
> >
> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
> Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
>

Re: [TYPES] ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

[Jonathan Aldrich]

[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

It appears that ETAPS has taken down this policy, along with a related
statement that was formerly on the Programme page:

"By virtue of participating at ETAPS'22, each participating scientist
explicitly condemns the war against Ukraine launched by President Putin as
an intolerable breach of international law and a crime against humanity"
(was from 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://etaps.org/2022/programme__;!!IBzWLUs!EpsQrWS31b30n9gaZtvqxq7Rq-6qqTlzJ-NVbzT5ftsROBWUU7cwfDXCOxA7gPC83gw-BfS8N2w$
 ).

This statement was arguably even more problematic, as it is a kind of
forced speech, and thus incompatible with academic freedom.

It appears both have been replaced with a statement by the organizers,
which--while it could still be viewed as bringing ETAPS into
politics--seems much less problematic.  I thank ETAPS for listening to
community concerns here.  And, I echo the ETAPS organizers in condemning
the invasion of Ukraine and the atrocities that have been committed as part
of it.  I support the government sanctions against Russia (which also
affect attendance at ETAPS), even if I agree with what Neel, Talia, and
others say about academic boycotts.

Best,

Jonathan

On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 1:33 PM Neel Krishnaswami <
neelakantan.krishnasw...@gmail.com> wrote:

> [ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list
> ]
>
> The ETAPS website (
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.etaps.org__;!!IBzWLUs!HUevd2N5Ms-2WYC1sMdH93ef4xxRy4BjZ9KD0I8SPwLGGpv-Rk7u_Emgl9qMMyLGK4ex90o0Cm0$
> ) has the following text on its
> front page:
>
> > The ETAPS association strongly condemns the war against Ukraine
> > launched by President Putin. It is an intolerable breach of
> > international law and a crime against humanity, unfolding in Europe
> > now. Therefore, until further notice, ETAPS 2022 cannot accept
> > registrations from affiliates of Russian research institutions or
> > companies.
>
> While I'm as opposed to illegal wars of aggression as anyone else, this
> feels like a serious mistake.
>
> There are many Russians (such as Jetbrains corporation) who have taken
> the serious personal risk of publically opposing the war, and barring
> them from our conferences due to their nationality feels wrong to me.
>
> It may well be that the financial sanctions regime means that
> registration payments cannot be accepted, but that is quite different
> from barring them personally.
>
> What do the rest of you think?
>
> Best,
> Neel
>

Re: [TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

[Max New]

[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

ETAPS has rescinded this policy as of today. The statement on the website
is as follows now:

The ETAPS association strongly condemns the war against Ukraine launched by
President Putin. It is an intolerable breach of international law and a
crime against humanity, unfolding in Europe now.

For more information, please refer to the Statement

of Alliance of Science Organisations in Germany
.

-Max Stewart New


On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 9:05 AM Sergiy Bogomolov  wrote:

> [ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list
> ]
>
> > Banning scientists from ETAPS won't do anything to bring the end of war
> a step closer.
> > Banning Netflix, McDonalds, Visa, Mastercard, etc., etc., from Russia,
> and ceasing to purchase fossil fuels from Russia might. Banning scientific
> conferences won't have any impact.
>
> Alastair: Thanks for your comment. I am afraid I don't really agree
> with this statement.
>
> At this stage, the whole essence of large-scale sanctions is to
> inflict pain on the Russian population, with the aim to reduce their
> support of the Putin regime.
>
> In this context, the larger part of the population is targeted, the
> more impact sanctions are going to have.
>
> Russian researchers are part of the whole population and one of the
> ways to hit them is to prohibit their participation in international
> conferences.
>
> In other words, I see the step of ETAPS organisers -- similar to
> banning Netflix, etc. -- as yet another tool to target a particular
> demographic, which the West should deploy to stop the war.
>
> I hope this makes sense.
>
> Thanks, Sergiy
>
>
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Ally
> >
> > 
> > From: Types-list  on behalf of
> Sergiy Bogomolov 
> > Sent: 09 March 2022 10:43
> > To: types 
> > Subject: Re: [TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending
> >
> > [ The Types Forum,
> http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]
> >
> > Let me start by saying that I strongly support the ETAPS decision to
> > ban the participation of Russian affiliated scientists at the
> > conference.
> >
> > The rationale is the as follows:
> >
> > *  The ongoing war in Ukraine is at least partially due to the weak
> > response of the Western countries to the Russian invasion of Ukraine
> > in 2014 and Georgia in 2008. In fact, the Western countries introduced
> > very targeted sanctions which, e.g., banned some Russian officials
> > from entering the US (which they did not care about anyway). At the
> > same time -- exactly in line with the arguments proposed by the folks
> > who want to overturn the decision of ETAPS organisers -- the broad
> > Russian population did not bear the burden of the sanctions. Have
> > these sanctions helped? No, they have not. In fact, these only
> > reassured the Russian regime that the West is "weak" and they can go
> > ahead with a fully-fledged war in Ukraine without fearing any
> > implications. In other words, all the efforts to change the course of
> > actions of the Russian government without negatively impacting the
> > Russian population have failed.
> >
> > * At the same time, upon the commencement of the war in Ukraine, the
> > Western governments seem to have learnt the lesson and have devised
> > the sanction regime which should hurt the Russian population as a
> > whole and make them finally give some thoughts about the decisions of
> > their government and the fact  that these might be in fact
> > counterproductive to their prosperity. This is an unfortunate reality
> > that the West has to resolve to this kind of approach, but I believe
> > there are only a limited number of ways to stop the war without ending
> > up in a direct military confrontation between the West and Russia.
> >
> > * To everybody who suggests overturning the decision of ETAPS
> > organisers I suggest the following thought experiment. Imagine you go
> > to bed without knowing you are going to be alive in the morning (as
> > Russian army pursues indiscriminate bombing of residential areas;
> > including the city of Kharkiv where I grew up). Imagine getting up in
> > the morning and calling your relatives to check out whether they are
> > still alive. If you were in such a situation, would you still be
> > willing to allow the Russian affiliated scientists to participate in
> > the conference? This is the reality myself and all the Ukrainians are
> > living through. Now, consider whether prohibiting the participation of
> > Russian affiliated scientists -- who did not 

Re: [TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

[Sergiy Bogomolov]

[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

> Banning scientists from ETAPS won't do anything to bring the end of war a 
> step closer.
> Banning Netflix, McDonalds, Visa, Mastercard, etc., etc., from Russia, and 
> ceasing to purchase fossil fuels from Russia might. Banning scientific 
> conferences won't have any impact.

Alastair: Thanks for your comment. I am afraid I don't really agree
with this statement.

At this stage, the whole essence of large-scale sanctions is to
inflict pain on the Russian population, with the aim to reduce their
support of the Putin regime.

In this context, the larger part of the population is targeted, the
more impact sanctions are going to have.

Russian researchers are part of the whole population and one of the
ways to hit them is to prohibit their participation in international
conferences.

In other words, I see the step of ETAPS organisers -- similar to
banning Netflix, etc. -- as yet another tool to target a particular
demographic, which the West should deploy to stop the war.

I hope this makes sense.

Thanks, Sergiy


>
> Cheers
>
> Ally
>
> 
> From: Types-list  on behalf of 
> Sergiy Bogomolov 
> Sent: 09 March 2022 10:43
> To: types 
> Subject: Re: [TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending
>
> [ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]
>
> Let me start by saying that I strongly support the ETAPS decision to
> ban the participation of Russian affiliated scientists at the
> conference.
>
> The rationale is the as follows:
>
> *  The ongoing war in Ukraine is at least partially due to the weak
> response of the Western countries to the Russian invasion of Ukraine
> in 2014 and Georgia in 2008. In fact, the Western countries introduced
> very targeted sanctions which, e.g., banned some Russian officials
> from entering the US (which they did not care about anyway). At the
> same time -- exactly in line with the arguments proposed by the folks
> who want to overturn the decision of ETAPS organisers -- the broad
> Russian population did not bear the burden of the sanctions. Have
> these sanctions helped? No, they have not. In fact, these only
> reassured the Russian regime that the West is "weak" and they can go
> ahead with a fully-fledged war in Ukraine without fearing any
> implications. In other words, all the efforts to change the course of
> actions of the Russian government without negatively impacting the
> Russian population have failed.
>
> * At the same time, upon the commencement of the war in Ukraine, the
> Western governments seem to have learnt the lesson and have devised
> the sanction regime which should hurt the Russian population as a
> whole and make them finally give some thoughts about the decisions of
> their government and the fact  that these might be in fact
> counterproductive to their prosperity. This is an unfortunate reality
> that the West has to resolve to this kind of approach, but I believe
> there are only a limited number of ways to stop the war without ending
> up in a direct military confrontation between the West and Russia.
>
> * To everybody who suggests overturning the decision of ETAPS
> organisers I suggest the following thought experiment. Imagine you go
> to bed without knowing you are going to be alive in the morning (as
> Russian army pursues indiscriminate bombing of residential areas;
> including the city of Kharkiv where I grew up). Imagine getting up in
> the morning and calling your relatives to check out whether they are
> still alive. If you were in such a situation, would you still be
> willing to allow the Russian affiliated scientists to participate in
> the conference? This is the reality myself and all the Ukrainians are
> living through. Now, consider whether prohibiting the participation of
> Russian affiliated scientists -- who did not participate at ETAPS en
> masse anyway -- which could bring the end of war a step closer
> outweighs the arguments to let the Russian affiliated scientists
> participate in the conference.
>
> Thanks, Sergiy
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 at 09:50, Alejandro Díaz-Caro
>  wrote:
> >
> > [ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]
> >
> > Dear Marino, dear all,
> >
> > El mié, 9 mar. 2022 05:05, Marino Miculan 
> > escribió:
> >
> > >
> > > Of course, I am sure that there are many colleagues there against the
> > > invasion. But then, we have to distinguish between the responsibility of
> > > the single, and that of the institution.  For instance, I would have no
> > > problems if a researcher from a Russian university  registers and presents
> > > their results at ETAPS (or any other conference) without any affiliation.
> > > That would be already a strong signal, as in "I'm here on my own, and I
> > > dissociate from my rector's opinions".
> > >
> >
> > That would be even worst than the decision of banning a country by their
> > 

Re: [TYPES] ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

[Gabriel Scherer]

[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

I find this decision by ETAPS shocking. I was considering attending ETAPS
2022, and I will not go.

I view scientific research as a universal pursuit of knowledge in the
benefit of humankind. We are funded by nations, but we work together on a
shared goal. (This is not just me, this is also a definition used by
UNESCO.) Preventing scientific researchers from attending a scientific
event runs counter to that goal, and is a clear limitation of academic
freedom.

I don't think that ETAPS can justify its decision according to those
principles. I don't know how this decision, which concerns the whole
scientific community (not just ETAPS board members) has been taken, and I
don't see any detailed justification of it publicly available. Limiting
participation in scientific activities is a grave decision that should be
justified carefully, announced well in advance, and provide clear avenues
for affected people to understand how to regain their ability to
participate. I don't see any such justification and processes here.

In these difficult times I find it useful to look for external
confirmations that my view of research matches other peoples' reality as
well. Please find at the end of this email some relevant excerpts from
UNESCO texts that I happened to find easily.

Preventing people from participating in academic conferences is not an
economic sanction, it is not comparable to McDonalds stopping business in
Russia. We should also be careful about comparisons with sports:
international sports are a *competition*, while international research is
mostly collaborative -- with competitive aspects as well.
(I wasn't aware of the precedent in South Africa which I find very
interesting. But I still find it a fairly different situation: South
African scientists were living in an Apartheid society for years, whereas
we are talking of an unprovoked war that is less than a month old.
We should also absolutely avoid trying to make decision on the publicly
perceived opinions/support of our colleagues working in Russia -- they live
in a country where spreading "misinformation about the special operations"
can send you to jail.)


Of course, working for all of humankind is one aspect of international
research, but there are also aspects of our work that advance national or
regional interests. I understand the argument that institutional
affiliations are a form of soft power, and that they are, in small part,
empowering our institutions and nations.
ETAPS could have decided to disallow researchers from indicating a Russian
affiliation (or even to not track affiliations at all, for everyone, in
support of global peace and as a reference to our universal values). As far
as I know, this would not have run afoul of the general principles of equal
access to science and academic freedom.


None of this should be taken as a minimization of the immense pain caused
by the tragedy going on in Ukraine right now due to Russia's unprovoked war.

I'm sure that ETAPS could find ways to indicate their support of the
Ukrainian people, and all people affected by this war.
Here in France we have a national initiative (the PAUSE programme run by
Collège de France :
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.college-de-france.fr/site/en-program-pause/Presentation-of-the-program.htm__;!!IBzWLUs!Faih7fEiuqHGj0gHXJugoZ0DWjGZpLM1D8VQmRhhPdjNUplx_k2OlPAWYIyuqC-qxiZXde6S0h4$
 
) to host scientists and artists in exile. Our hierarchy signalled that
funding would be available for people displaced by the war in Ukraine; if
you are concerned and would like to come work in France, please get in
touch with colleagues working in French institutions. (The institutions
hire the displaced scientists, funded by the programme.)



Paragraph 31 of the UNESCO 2018 document "Recommendation on science and
scientific researchers" states:

Member States should actively promote the interplay of
> ideas and information among scientific researchers throughout the world,
> which is
> vital to the healthy development of the sciences; and to this end, should
> take all
> measures necessary to ensure that scientific researchers are enabled,
> throughout
> their careers, to participate in international scientific and
> technological community.
> Member States should facilitate this travel in and out of their territory.
>

Paragraph 14.b of the 2021 Unesco Recommendation on Open Science states:

Equality of opportunities: all scientists and other open science
> actors and stakeholders, regardless of location, nationality, race,
> age, gender, income, socio-economic circumstances, career stage,
> discipline, language, religion, disability, ethnicity or migratory status,
> or any other grounds, have an equal opportunity to access, and
> contribute to and benefit from open science.


Paragraph 27 of the 1997 UNESCO statement on Academic Freedom includes:

The maintaining of the above international 

Re: [TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

[Julia Belyakova]

[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

Just FYI about rectors' letters: most Russian universities are state
universities, and in many of them, rectors are literally government
appointees, not elected by the university body.

There were various independent antiwar letters signed by academics,
including people working in the institutions whose rectors signed the
pro-Putin letters. The university admins don't represent the scientific
community.

--
Kind regards, Julia

On Wed, Mar 9, 2022, 04:30 Marino Miculan  wrote:

> [ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list
> ]
>
> I agree with Sergey.  Maybe some of you have missed the following post
> from the Russian Rectors' union, fully supporting the invasion of Ukraine.
> Signed by 185 rectors - I guess, all Russian universities (correct me if I
> am wrong).
>
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rsr-online.ru/news/2022-god/obrashchenie-rossiyskogo-soyuza-rektorov1/__;!!IBzWLUs!FxNpRHKpndUzqHVYfL875gRNUF6LDxgWF3Lmq4IGTMUYwYiZDtAZM0erpyfBXgYOogbNe9OTV8A$
>
> Giving space and visibility to research coming from these universities is
> tantamaunt to admit that these universities (and hence, their researchers,
> as far as we know) can support war crimes.
>
> Of course, I am sure that there are many colleagues there against the
> invasion. But then, we have to distinguish between the responsibility of
> the single, and that of the institution.  For instance, I would have no
> problems if a researcher from a Russian university  registers and presents
> their results at ETAPS (or any other conference) without​ any affiliation.
> That would be already a strong signal, as in "I'm here on my own, and I
> dissociate from my rector's opinions".
>
> best
> -marino
>
>
> 
> Da: Types-list  per conto di
> Sergey Goncharov 
> Inviato: martedì 8 marzo 2022 20:48
> A: Neel Krishnaswami ;
> types-list@lists.seas.upenn.edu 
> Oggetto: Re: [TYPES] ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending
>
> [ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list
> ]
>
> Dear Neel,
>
> >
> > There are many Russians (such as Jetbrains corporation) who have taken
> > the serious personal risk of publically opposing the war, and barring
> > them from our conferences due to their nationality feels wrong to me.
> >
> > It may well be that the financial sanctions regime means that
> > registration payments cannot be accepted, but that is quite different
> > from barring them personally.
> >
> > What do the rest of you think?
> >
>
> I personally think that you are underestimating the magnitude of the
> drastic events that are happening.
> I might be biased, because I come originally from Ukraine and I have to
> watch now in real time how the
> places where I lived and which I loved are being demolished cruelly and
> methodically together with the
> population without any reason whatsoever. And I feel helpless seeing that
> I cannot do anything about it.
>
> Collective responsibility is always a tricky thing. Normally, you do not
> want it. Normally. But the
> present situation is far from normal, far far away from normal.
>
> Is it OK to say, well, we are against a nazi regime, but there are many
> nice people in there, why should
> we punish them? Maybe they are indeed nice, but they are serving that
> bloody regime. Nothing personal.
> They do empower the regime, by their reputation, by making it look more
> prestigious, making it look
> "normal" from the inside and the outside, which can, and (I assure you)
> will be used by propaganda
> precisely in this way. If there is a chance to send a signal to the effect
> "it is not normal" in
> whatever way, I am sorry, but I would do this by any means, without
> hesitation.
>
> And it is not about "nationality", it is about "affiliation". Russians in
> Europe are "European
> scientists", Russians in Russia are "Putin's scientists" -- that is how it
> works mentally. In that
> sense, the formulation by ETAPS is very correct, in my opinion.
>
> Cheers,
> Sergey
>
>

Re: [TYPES] ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

[Gabriel Scherer]

[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

I looked for more sources on the examples of Ricardo and Phil.

- The 2013 NASA event is described in the following press articles:
  
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/20/world/asia/china-nasa-drama/index.html__;!!IBzWLUs!GhQK6_S6GyjP-V9HmwwzBik-u6R4jdNiLP2q_jATNCsbxUdf3BvEwf5qgsfCz89kEoDJu8D9Itc$
 

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/oct/11/nasa-chinese-scientists-conference-ban__;!!IBzWLUs!GhQK6_S6GyjP-V9HmwwzBik-u6R4jdNiLP2q_jATNCsbxUdf3BvEwf5qgsfCz89kEoDJ58lVgdI$
 
  It is not clear from the articles what the real motivation for the ban
was, but the justification
  was internal regulations in the US at the time. The ban was apparently
reversed
  before the conference took place, after a large public outcry. The
decision was made by
  NASA -- the conference was hosted within a NASA facility. (This is not a
computer science
  conference.)

- There is a wikipedia page on the academic boycott of South Africa:
  
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_boycott_of_South_Africa__;!!IBzWLUs!GhQK6_S6GyjP-V9HmwwzBik-u6R4jdNiLP2q_jATNCsbxUdf3BvEwf5qgsfCz89kEoDJ90qzEyk$
 
  It details that this was a controversial topic at the time outside the
country, even in anti-apartheid groups.

On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 12:45 PM Philip Wadler  wrote:

> To add to Ricardo's examples, during Apartheid, there was an academic
> boycott of South Africa as part of a larger cultural boycott, similar to
> the cultural boycott of Russia we see beginning today. This included not
> accepting academic visitors affiliated with South Africa, even though many
> South African academics opposed Apartheid. Treating Russian institutions
> differently at this time can contribute to a cumulative effect. Failing to
> treat them differently sends the message that we don't care. Go well, -- P
>
>
> .   \ Philip Wadler, Professor of Theoretical Computer Science,
> .   /\ School of Informatics, University of Edinburgh
> .  /  \ and Senior Research Fellow, IOHK
> . 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/__;!!IBzWLUs!GhQK6_S6GyjP-V9HmwwzBik-u6R4jdNiLP2q_jATNCsbxUdf3BvEwf5qgsfCz89kEoDJyX679Vo$
>  
>
>
>
> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 at 20:29, Ricardo Medel 
> wrote:
>
>> This email was sent to you by someone outside the University.
>> You should only click on links or attachments if you are certain that the
>> email is genuine and the content is safe.
>>
>> [ The Types Forum,
>> http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]
>>
>> German scientists were banned from conferences after the First World War.
>>
>> Chinese scientists (even those working/studying at the USA) were banned
>> from attending a NASA conference in 2013.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> El mar., 8 de marzo de 2022 17:25, Gabriel Scherer <
>> gabriel.sche...@gmail.com> escribió:
>>
>> > [ The Types Forum,
>> http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list
>> > ]
>> >
>> > Do people know of any precedent of a conference forbidding people
>> working
>> > in a certain country to attend?
>> >
>> > (Of course, on a regular basis we hold conferences in countries that
>> make
>> > it difficult for some of our colleagues to attend. But this sounds very
>> > different from the conference itself forbidding certain researchers from
>> > attending on the basis of their country of employment.)
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 7:33 PM Neel Krishnaswami <
>> > neelakantan.krishnasw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > [ The Types Forum,
>> > http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list
>> > > ]
>> > >
>> > > The ETAPS website (
>> > >
>> >
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.etaps.org__;!!IBzWLUs!HUevd2N5Ms-2WYC1sMdH93ef4xxRy4BjZ9KD0I8SPwLGGpv-Rk7u_Emgl9qMMyLGK4ex90o0Cm0$
>> > > ) has the following text on its
>> > > front page:
>> > >
>> > > > The ETAPS association strongly condemns the war against Ukraine
>> > > > launched by President Putin. It is an intolerable breach of
>> > > > international law and a crime against humanity, unfolding in Europe
>> > > > now. Therefore, until further notice, ETAPS 2022 cannot accept
>> > > > registrations from affiliates of Russian research institutions or
>> > > > companies.
>> > >
>> > > While I'm as opposed to illegal wars of aggression as anyone else,
>> this
>> > > feels like a serious mistake.
>> > >
>> > > There are many Russians (such as Jetbrains corporation) who have taken
>> > > the serious personal risk of publically opposing the war, and barring
>> > > them from our conferences due to their nationality feels wrong to me.
>> > >
>> > > It may well be that the financial sanctions regime means that
>> > > registration payments cannot be accepted, but that is quite different
>> > > from barring them personally.
>> > >
>> > > What do the rest of you think?
>> > >
>> > > Best,
>> > > Neel
>> > >
>> >
>>
> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, 

Re: [TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

[Sergiy Bogomolov]

[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

Let me start by saying that I strongly support the ETAPS decision to
ban the participation of Russian affiliated scientists at the
conference.

The rationale is the as follows:

*  The ongoing war in Ukraine is at least partially due to the weak
response of the Western countries to the Russian invasion of Ukraine
in 2014 and Georgia in 2008. In fact, the Western countries introduced
very targeted sanctions which, e.g., banned some Russian officials
from entering the US (which they did not care about anyway). At the
same time -- exactly in line with the arguments proposed by the folks
who want to overturn the decision of ETAPS organisers -- the broad
Russian population did not bear the burden of the sanctions. Have
these sanctions helped? No, they have not. In fact, these only
reassured the Russian regime that the West is "weak" and they can go
ahead with a fully-fledged war in Ukraine without fearing any
implications. In other words, all the efforts to change the course of
actions of the Russian government without negatively impacting the
Russian population have failed.

* At the same time, upon the commencement of the war in Ukraine, the
Western governments seem to have learnt the lesson and have devised
the sanction regime which should hurt the Russian population as a
whole and make them finally give some thoughts about the decisions of
their government and the fact  that these might be in fact
counterproductive to their prosperity. This is an unfortunate reality
that the West has to resolve to this kind of approach, but I believe
there are only a limited number of ways to stop the war without ending
up in a direct military confrontation between the West and Russia.

* To everybody who suggests overturning the decision of ETAPS
organisers I suggest the following thought experiment. Imagine you go
to bed without knowing you are going to be alive in the morning (as
Russian army pursues indiscriminate bombing of residential areas;
including the city of Kharkiv where I grew up). Imagine getting up in
the morning and calling your relatives to check out whether they are
still alive. If you were in such a situation, would you still be
willing to allow the Russian affiliated scientists to participate in
the conference? This is the reality myself and all the Ukrainians are
living through. Now, consider whether prohibiting the participation of
Russian affiliated scientists -- who did not participate at ETAPS en
masse anyway -- which could bring the end of war a step closer
outweighs the arguments to let the Russian affiliated scientists
participate in the conference.

Thanks, Sergiy





On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 at 09:50, Alejandro Díaz-Caro
 wrote:
>
> [ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]
>
> Dear Marino, dear all,
>
> El mié, 9 mar. 2022 05:05, Marino Miculan 
> escribió:
>
> >
> > Of course, I am sure that there are many colleagues there against the
> > invasion. But then, we have to distinguish between the responsibility of
> > the single, and that of the institution.  For instance, I would have no
> > problems if a researcher from a Russian university  registers and presents
> > their results at ETAPS (or any other conference) without any affiliation.
> > That would be already a strong signal, as in "I'm here on my own, and I
> > dissociate from my rector's opinions".
> >
>
> That would be even worst than the decision of banning a country by their
> war politics. What you are proposing there is to ask the researchers about
> their political personal opinion in order to be admitted to a conference. I
> find this completely wrong.
>
> Shall we also inquire Cubans if they support Fidel Castro or Americans if
> they support the blockade? Shall we ask Israel or Palestinians what side of
> the conflict they support, and let them register according to the personal
> stand of the organisers at the venue?
>
> I think that mixing politics with the scientific community at this global
> level is very dangerous and ultimately wrong.
>
> I hope this line of actions do not prosper, or we will damage the
> scientific community for many years.
>
> Best,
> Alejandro
>
> >

Re: [TYPES] ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

[Philip Wadler]

[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

To add to Ricardo's examples, during Apartheid, there was an academic
boycott of South Africa as part of a larger cultural boycott, similar to
the cultural boycott of Russia we see beginning today. This included not
accepting academic visitors affiliated with South Africa, even though many
South African academics opposed Apartheid. Treating Russian institutions
differently at this time can contribute to a cumulative effect. Failing to
treat them differently sends the message that we don't care. Go well, -- P


.   \ Philip Wadler, Professor of Theoretical Computer Science,
.   /\ School of Informatics, University of Edinburgh
.  /  \ and Senior Research Fellow, IOHK
. 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/__;!!IBzWLUs!ByhpRFSKZ3IGEazSYRk8ZiPNOU_tVRrh8Q_83QpOs_9HzrHFz55B0xkCfLYICuE4ayzyajgRdTs$
 



On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 at 20:29, Ricardo Medel 
wrote:

> This email was sent to you by someone outside the University.
> You should only click on links or attachments if you are certain that the
> email is genuine and the content is safe.
>
> [ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list
> ]
>
> German scientists were banned from conferences after the First World War.
>
> Chinese scientists (even those working/studying at the USA) were banned
> from attending a NASA conference in 2013.
>
>
>
>
> El mar., 8 de marzo de 2022 17:25, Gabriel Scherer <
> gabriel.sche...@gmail.com> escribió:
>
> > [ The Types Forum,
> http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list
> > ]
> >
> > Do people know of any precedent of a conference forbidding people working
> > in a certain country to attend?
> >
> > (Of course, on a regular basis we hold conferences in countries that make
> > it difficult for some of our colleagues to attend. But this sounds very
> > different from the conference itself forbidding certain researchers from
> > attending on the basis of their country of employment.)
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 7:33 PM Neel Krishnaswami <
> > neelakantan.krishnasw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > [ The Types Forum,
> > http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list
> > > ]
> > >
> > > The ETAPS website (
> > >
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.etaps.org__;!!IBzWLUs!HUevd2N5Ms-2WYC1sMdH93ef4xxRy4BjZ9KD0I8SPwLGGpv-Rk7u_Emgl9qMMyLGK4ex90o0Cm0$
> > > ) has the following text on its
> > > front page:
> > >
> > > > The ETAPS association strongly condemns the war against Ukraine
> > > > launched by President Putin. It is an intolerable breach of
> > > > international law and a crime against humanity, unfolding in Europe
> > > > now. Therefore, until further notice, ETAPS 2022 cannot accept
> > > > registrations from affiliates of Russian research institutions or
> > > > companies.
> > >
> > > While I'm as opposed to illegal wars of aggression as anyone else, this
> > > feels like a serious mistake.
> > >
> > > There are many Russians (such as Jetbrains corporation) who have taken
> > > the serious personal risk of publically opposing the war, and barring
> > > them from our conferences due to their nationality feels wrong to me.
> > >
> > > It may well be that the financial sanctions regime means that
> > > registration payments cannot be accepted, but that is quite different
> > > from barring them personally.
> > >
> > > What do the rest of you think?
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Neel
> > >
> >
>
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

Re: [TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

[Alejandro Díaz-Caro]

[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

Dear Marino, dear all,

El mié, 9 mar. 2022 05:05, Marino Miculan 
escribió:

>
> Of course, I am sure that there are many colleagues there against the
> invasion. But then, we have to distinguish between the responsibility of
> the single, and that of the institution.  For instance, I would have no
> problems if a researcher from a Russian university  registers and presents
> their results at ETAPS (or any other conference) without​ any affiliation.
> That would be already a strong signal, as in "I'm here on my own, and I
> dissociate from my rector's opinions".
>

That would be even worst than the decision of banning a country by their
war politics. What you are proposing there is to ask the researchers about
their political personal opinion in order to be admitted to a conference. I
find this completely wrong.

Shall we also inquire Cubans if they support Fidel Castro or Americans if
they support the blockade? Shall we ask Israel or Palestinians what side of
the conflict they support, and let them register according to the personal
stand of the organisers at the venue?

I think that mixing politics with the scientific community at this global
level is very dangerous and ultimately wrong.

I hope this line of actions do not prosper, or we will damage the
scientific community for many years.

Best,
Alejandro

>

Re: [TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

[Julin S]

[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

I feel that it's very wrong and will lead to serious adverse
consequences on the whole scientific community if individuals
ostracized based on their country.

Let's not contribute to the fragmentation the academic community.

Mixing academics with political decisions of governments (and not of
the people being governed by them), is a very bad idea.

I suppose it's already been mentioned implcitly, but let us not forget that
people can also be forced into signing things.

On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 1:33 PM Marino Miculan  wrote:
>
> [ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]
>
> I agree with Sergey.  Maybe some of you have missed the following post from 
> the Russian Rectors' union, fully supporting the invasion of Ukraine. Signed 
> by 185 rectors - I guess, all Russian universities (correct me if I am wrong).
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rsr-online.ru/news/2022-god/obrashchenie-rossiyskogo-soyuza-rektorov1/__;!!IBzWLUs!FxNpRHKpndUzqHVYfL875gRNUF6LDxgWF3Lmq4IGTMUYwYiZDtAZM0erpyfBXgYOogbNe9OTV8A$
>
> Giving space and visibility to research coming from these universities is 
> tantamaunt to admit that these universities (and hence, their researchers, as 
> far as we know) can support war crimes.

Re: [TYPES] ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

[Ricardo Medel]

[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

German scientists were banned from conferences after the First World War.

Chinese scientists (even those working/studying at the USA) were banned
from attending a NASA conference in 2013.




El mar., 8 de marzo de 2022 17:25, Gabriel Scherer <
gabriel.sche...@gmail.com> escribió:

> [ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list
> ]
>
> Do people know of any precedent of a conference forbidding people working
> in a certain country to attend?
>
> (Of course, on a regular basis we hold conferences in countries that make
> it difficult for some of our colleagues to attend. But this sounds very
> different from the conference itself forbidding certain researchers from
> attending on the basis of their country of employment.)
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 7:33 PM Neel Krishnaswami <
> neelakantan.krishnasw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > [ The Types Forum,
> http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list
> > ]
> >
> > The ETAPS website (
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.etaps.org__;!!IBzWLUs!HUevd2N5Ms-2WYC1sMdH93ef4xxRy4BjZ9KD0I8SPwLGGpv-Rk7u_Emgl9qMMyLGK4ex90o0Cm0$
> > ) has the following text on its
> > front page:
> >
> > > The ETAPS association strongly condemns the war against Ukraine
> > > launched by President Putin. It is an intolerable breach of
> > > international law and a crime against humanity, unfolding in Europe
> > > now. Therefore, until further notice, ETAPS 2022 cannot accept
> > > registrations from affiliates of Russian research institutions or
> > > companies.
> >
> > While I'm as opposed to illegal wars of aggression as anyone else, this
> > feels like a serious mistake.
> >
> > There are many Russians (such as Jetbrains corporation) who have taken
> > the serious personal risk of publically opposing the war, and barring
> > them from our conferences due to their nationality feels wrong to me.
> >
> > It may well be that the financial sanctions regime means that
> > registration payments cannot be accepted, but that is quite different
> > from barring them personally.
> >
> > What do the rest of you think?
> >
> > Best,
> > Neel
> >
>

Re: [TYPES] Types-list Digest, Vol 140, Issue 1

[Ana Sokolova]

[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

I also find this utterly wrong, and we (a group of computer scientists
working in Austria + collaborators) already started an initiative to change
this. I am still waiting for news from the person who is talking to the
ETAPS chair(s).

Best,
Ana

On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 8:01 PM 
wrote:

> Send Types-list mailing list submissions to
> types-list@LISTS.SEAS.UPENN.EDU
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> https://LISTS.SEAS.UPENN.EDU/mailman/listinfo/types-list
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> types-list-requ...@lists.seas.upenn.edu
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> types-list-ow...@lists.seas.upenn.edu
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Types-list digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>1.  Request: Papers to understand Nordic logic talk (Julin S)
>2. Re:  Request: Papers to understand Nordic logic talk
>   (Rishiyur Nikhil)
>3.  Consistency of NF (Jamie)
>4.  ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending (Neel Krishnaswami)
>5. Re:  ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending (Talia Ringer)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 09:45:19 +0530
> From: Julin S 
> To: types-list@lists.seas.upenn.edu
> Subject: [TYPES] Request: Papers to understand Nordic logic talk
> Message-ID:
> <
> camvfptuj5wzzftud+d0uzvqabxhgbhhbniqorn_qoworgou...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hi. I saw in the types-announce[2] mailing list about a talk by Thierry
> Coquand
> as part of the Nordic Online Logic Seminar.
>
> I'm sort of new to logic and type theory and was trying to find papers that
> would help me understand the talk better.
>
> The abstract was:
>
>
> > The first part will be about representation of mathematics on a
> > computer.Questions that arise there are  naturally reminiscent of issues
> that
> > arise when teaching formal proofs in a basic logic course, e.g. how to
> deal
> > with free  and bound variables, and instantiation rules. As discussed in
> a 1962
> > paper of Tarski, these issues are "clearly experienced both in teaching
> an
> > elementary course in mathematical logic and in formalizing the syntax of
> > predicate logic for some theoretical purposes." I will present two quite
> > different approaches to this problem: one inspired by Tarski's paper (N.
> > Megill, system Metamath) and one using dependent type theory (N.G. de
> Bruijn).
> >
> > The second part will then try to explain how notations introduced by
> dependent
> > type theory suggest new insights for old questions coming from Principia
> > Mathematica (extensionality, reducibility axiom) through the notion of
> > universe, introduced by Grothendieck for representing category theory in
> set
> > theory, and introduced in dependent type theory by P. Martin-L?f.
>
>
> Could anyone help me find the papers/works that this abstract may be
> referring
> to (and anything else that can be helpful to better understand the talk)?
>
> I tried searching for these on google scholar but couldn't pinpoint the
> papers.
>
>  - 1962 paper by Tarksi
>  - Tarski's paper (N. Megill, system Metamath)
>  - dependent type theory (N. G. de Bruijn)
>
> Could metamath be this[1]?
>
> [1]:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://us.metamath.org/downloads/metamath.pdf__;!!IBzWLUs!GgCWS35KVAXOBGITv9G363gRbkyb18vD4--hSnWLV-gywkE2s4FtPjLKBnsWe-MrlCqCOSshYmI$
> [2]: http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/pipermail/types-announce/2022/010050.html
>
> Thanks and regards,
> Julin Shaji
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 19:03:07 -0500
> From: Rishiyur Nikhil 
> To: Julin S 
> Cc: Types list 
> Subject: Re: [TYPES] Request: Papers to understand Nordic logic talk
> Message-ID:
> <
> caodmajrvtof_-bc8jfd1js-tvf78h2qrkqjmkt62h2bgfg0...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Also of interest, apropos this topic:
>
> @article{
> Buzzard2021,
> author = "Buzzard, Kevin",
> title = "What is the Point of Computers? A Question for Pure
> Mathematicians",
> note = "arXiv:2112211598v1 [math.HO] 22-Dec 2021"
> year = 2021,
> month = "December 22",
> annote = "
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://arxiv.org/abs/2112.11598__;!!IBzWLUs!AxV2Fv4-shJoZ8gpbEEqqyhh5PvOj9MVC_4H9O8cSQzUmEEaXjVPbmfeHkiRyqSn_-uarZItZ_8$
> "
> }
>
> Nikhil
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 06:28:59 +
> From: Jamie 
> To: types-list@lists.seas.upenn.edu
> Subject: [TYPES] Consistency of NF
> Message-ID:
>  su2iyqbqipqrn26430pir+1evwo5lg5-v4bofzzo...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Some of you may know that I've been working on the consistency of Quine's
> NF for a 

[TYPES] R: ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

[Marino Miculan]

[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

I agree with Sergey.  Maybe some of you have missed the following post from the 
Russian Rectors' union, fully supporting the invasion of Ukraine. Signed by 185 
rectors - I guess, all Russian universities (correct me if I am wrong).

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rsr-online.ru/news/2022-god/obrashchenie-rossiyskogo-soyuza-rektorov1/__;!!IBzWLUs!FxNpRHKpndUzqHVYfL875gRNUF6LDxgWF3Lmq4IGTMUYwYiZDtAZM0erpyfBXgYOogbNe9OTV8A$
 

Giving space and visibility to research coming from these universities is 
tantamaunt to admit that these universities (and hence, their researchers, as 
far as we know) can support war crimes.

Of course, I am sure that there are many colleagues there against the invasion. 
But then, we have to distinguish between the responsibility of the single, and 
that of the institution.  For instance, I would have no problems if a 
researcher from a Russian university  registers and presents their results at 
ETAPS (or any other conference) without​ any affiliation.  That would be 
already a strong signal, as in "I'm here on my own, and I dissociate from my 
rector's opinions".

best
-marino



Da: Types-list  per conto di Sergey 
Goncharov 
Inviato: martedì 8 marzo 2022 20:48
A: Neel Krishnaswami ; 
types-list@lists.seas.upenn.edu 
Oggetto: Re: [TYPES] ETAPS bars Russian researchers from attending

[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.upenn.edu/mailman/listinfo/types-list ]

Dear Neel,

>
> There are many Russians (such as Jetbrains corporation) who have taken
> the serious personal risk of publically opposing the war, and barring
> them from our conferences due to their nationality feels wrong to me.
>
> It may well be that the financial sanctions regime means that
> registration payments cannot be accepted, but that is quite different
> from barring them personally.
>
> What do the rest of you think?
>

I personally think that you are underestimating the magnitude of the drastic 
events that are happening.
I might be biased, because I come originally from Ukraine and I have to watch 
now in real time how the
places where I lived and which I loved are being demolished cruelly and 
methodically together with the
population without any reason whatsoever. And I feel helpless seeing that I 
cannot do anything about it.

Collective responsibility is always a tricky thing. Normally, you do not want 
it. Normally. But the
present situation is far from normal, far far away from normal.

Is it OK to say, well, we are against a nazi regime, but there are many nice 
people in there, why should
we punish them? Maybe they are indeed nice, but they are serving that bloody 
regime. Nothing personal.
They do empower the regime, by their reputation, by making it look more 
prestigious, making it look
"normal" from the inside and the outside, which can, and (I assure you) will be 
used by propaganda
precisely in this way. If there is a chance to send a signal to the effect "it 
is not normal" in
whatever way, I am sorry, but I would do this by any means, without hesitation.

And it is not about "nationality", it is about "affiliation". Russians in 
Europe are "European
scientists", Russians in Russia are "Putin's scientists" -- that is how it 
works mentally. In that
sense, the formulation by ETAPS is very correct, in my opinion.

Cheers,
Sergey