Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse)
From: George Gallen Maybe because of Pick's lack of organization enforcement - that is one of it's failings - it puts all the burden of documentation onto the programmers That's the essence of our being and arguably the strength of the platform: RDBMS sites have DBA's separate from the programmers. MV sites traded away the DBAs and left schema to application developers who know BASIC ... which according to Edsger Dijkstra, the teaching of BASIC should be rated as a criminal offence: it mutilates the mind beyond recovery. Nuf said. :) Nobody got time for that! LOL - The quote that became a phenomenon - I only wish the poor person who originally said it got royalties. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse)
From: Susan Joslyn [mailto:sjos...@sjplus.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 4:55 PM To: 'Wjhonson' Subject: RE: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) Hi Will, You can prevent creation of new items for all dictionaries or a designated set of 'sensitive' files. You can also allow the creation but have the items collect on a project where some kind of administrator would review and approve or discard them. Mainly by having control of the process to make the dictionaries - then lots of choices from there depending on the desire result. Make sense? If I answered the wrong question, ask me again! Susan From: Wjhonson [mailto:wjhon...@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 4:48 PM To: sjos...@sjplus.com; u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) How does PRC prevent programmers from creating extra dict entries ? -Original Message- From: Susan Joslyn sjos...@sjplus.com To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Tue, Jul 16, 2013 1:45 pm Subject: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) Greetings, Keeping the dictionary clean // authorizing change // tracking change // synching - PRC helps with that. Weak excuse for a plug, right? Susan Joslyn SJ+ Systems Associates, Inc. PRC - It Governance for U2. - Message: 7 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 09:59:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Robinson donr_w...@yahoo.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) Message-ID: 1373993983.14363.yahoomail...@web120205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Wj, ? Sarcasm on: Use the Don security theory, first?offense, cut off a couple of fingers, second offense, cut off right hand, problem solved. Sarcasm off ? Seriously, this boils down to a management issue, employee?supervision and buy in. Don? From: Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 12:44 PM Subject: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) -Original Message- From: Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Tue, Jul 16, 2013 9:42 am Subject: Re: [U2] UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) But with programmers able to create new DICT entries as they will, how do you *keep* it spotless? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
[U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse)
-Original Message- From: Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Tue, Jul 16, 2013 9:42 am Subject: Re: [U2] UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) But with programmers able to create new DICT entries as they will, how do you *keep* it spotless? -Original Message- From: Hona, David david.h...@cba.com.au To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Mon, Jul 15, 2013 5:40 pm Subject: Re: [U2] UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) Regardless of the toolset, the first hurdle would be to normalise your database to look like a relational one. Which is likely to be the greatest hurdle. Data dictionaries in U2/PICK are optional are a purely for reporting purposes - they can have duplicates and these can be conflicting. Even worse (as if you thought it could be) - data dictionaries can be incomplete or wrong. This added to the lack of enforcement of data integrity and constraints usually causes these toolsets to fail (indeed, even the UV/ODBC driver fails too!)... so good luck! Rocket released U2 Metadata Manager to assist in this respect and is designed to allow forward and backwards capability. Although, support for this in UV is limited to the latest official release... so your alternative is UV/ODBC... For UV/ODBC users - I have always recommended a separate UV account and data dictionary that is spotless. For some this is the best option - why go against the flow - when you create your own stream... ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse)
Wj, Sarcasm on: Use the Don security theory, first offense, cut off a couple of fingers, second offense, cut off right hand, problem solved. Sarcasm off Seriously, this boils down to a management issue, employee supervision and buy in. Don From: Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 12:44 PM Subject: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) -Original Message- From: Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Tue, Jul 16, 2013 9:42 am Subject: Re: [U2] UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) But with programmers able to create new DICT entries as they will, how do you *keep* it spotless? -Original Message- From: Hona, David david.h...@cba.com.au To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Mon, Jul 15, 2013 5:40 pm Subject: Re: [U2] UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) Regardless of the toolset, the first hurdle would be to normalise your database to look like a relational one. Which is likely to be the greatest hurdle. Data dictionaries in U2/PICK are optional are a purely for reporting purposes - they can have duplicates and these can be conflicting. Even worse (as if you thought it could be) - data dictionaries can be incomplete or wrong. This added to the lack of enforcement of data integrity and constraints usually causes these toolsets to fail (indeed, even the UV/ODBC driver fails too!)... so good luck! Rocket released U2 Metadata Manager to assist in this respect and is designed to allow forward and backwards capability. Although, support for this in UV is limited to the latest official release... so your alternative is UV/ODBC... For UV/ODBC users - I have always recommended a separate UV account and data dictionary that is spotless. For some this is the best option - why go against the flow - when you create your own stream... ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse)
You can place all of your dictionaries into a separate account, in a separate directory. Create valid update permissions for an administrator to this database directory and read permissions for users, and anyone else Bill Untitled Page - Original Message - *From:* wjhon...@aol.com *To:* u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org *Date:* 7/16/2013 9:44 AM *Subject:* [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) -Original Message- From: Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Tue, Jul 16, 2013 9:42 am Subject: Re: [U2] UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) But with programmers able to create new DICT entries as they will, how do you *keep* it spotless? -Original Message- From: Hona, David david.h...@cba.com.au To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Mon, Jul 15, 2013 5:40 pm Subject: Re: [U2] UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) Regardless of the toolset, the first hurdle would be to normalise your database to look like a relational one. Which is likely to be the greatest hurdle. Data dictionaries in U2/PICK are optional are a purely for reporting purposes - they can have duplicates and these can be conflicting. Even worse (as if you thought it could be) - data dictionaries can be incomplete or wrong. This added to the lack of enforcement of data integrity and constraints usually causes these toolsets to fail (indeed, even the UV/ODBC driver fails too!)... so good luck! Rocket released U2 Metadata Manager to assist in this respect and is designed to allow forward and backwards capability. Although, support for this in UV is limited to the latest official release... so your alternative is UV/ODBC... For UV/ODBC users - I have always recommended a separate UV account and data dictionary that is spotless. For some this is the best option - why go against the flow - when you create your own stream... ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse)
The only downside to that would be that you can't have filenames of the same name in different accounts, Unless you factor the accountname into the dict name. George -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 2:11 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) You can place all of your dictionaries into a separate account, in a separate directory. Create valid update permissions for an administrator to this database directory and read permissions for users, and anyone else Bill Untitled Page ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse)
George: You could create another dictionary account, next to the first one, and reference it for those accounts that utilize the same file names with different data structures. Would that work? Bill Untitled Page - Original Message - *From:* ggal...@wyanokegroup.com *To:* U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org *Date:* 7/16/2013 11:16 AM *Subject:* Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) The only downside to that would be that you can't have filenames of the same name in different accounts, unless you factor the accountname into the dict name. George -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 2:11 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) You can place all of your dictionaries into a separate account, in a separate directory. Create valid update permissions for an administrator to this database directory and read permissions for users, and anyone else Bill ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse)
(Hey Don, I think you have your ReplyTo set, so replies to your posts to the list go to you direct.. Resending this to list...) I think Don is spot on - substitute time off and other consequences for finger breaking, though the Italian in me is quite partial to the finger solution. It's assumed that the norm is to have bad dicts with no documentation - a problem that needs to be remedied. That's just accepted norm. If it's clear that it's not accepted then it doesn't become the norm which then requires some sort of remedy. If the norm is established as policy, and consequences for failure to adhere to policy are well known, then most of these problems with administering chaos go away. That goes for backups, version control, comments, application of patches/updates, and other areas where change (or inaction) in an environment can have adverse effects. T From: Don Robinson Wj, Sarcasm on: Use the Don security theory, first offense, cut off a couple of fingers, second offense, cut off right hand, problem solved. Sarcasm off Seriously, this boils down to a management issue, employee supervision and buy in. Don From: Wjhonson But with programmers able to create new DICT entries as they will, how do you *keep* it spotless? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
[U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse)
Greetings, Keeping the dictionary clean // authorizing change // tracking change // synching - PRC helps with that. Weak excuse for a plug, right? Susan Joslyn SJ+ Systems Associates, Inc. PRC - It Governance for U2. - Message: 7 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 09:59:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Robinson donr_w...@yahoo.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) Message-ID: 1373993983.14363.yahoomail...@web120205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Wj, ? Sarcasm on: Use the Don security theory, first?offense, cut off a couple of fingers, second offense, cut off right hand, problem solved. Sarcasm off ? Seriously, this boils down to a management issue, employee?supervision and buy in. Don? From: Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 12:44 PM Subject: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) -Original Message- From: Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Tue, Jul 16, 2013 9:42 am Subject: Re: [U2] UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) But with programmers able to create new DICT entries as they will, how do you *keep* it spotless? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse)
How does PRC prevent programmers from creating extra dict entries ? -Original Message- From: Susan Joslyn sjos...@sjplus.com To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Tue, Jul 16, 2013 1:45 pm Subject: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) Greetings, Keeping the dictionary clean // authorizing change // tracking change // synching - PRC helps with that. Weak excuse for a plug, right? Susan Joslyn SJ+ Systems Associates, Inc. PRC - It Governance for U2. - Message: 7 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 09:59:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Robinson donr_w...@yahoo.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) Message-ID: 1373993983.14363.yahoomail...@web120205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Wj, ? Sarcasm on: Use the Don security theory, first?offense, cut off a couple of fingers, second offense, cut off right hand, problem solved. Sarcasm off ? Seriously, this boils down to a management issue, employee?supervision and buy in. Don? From: Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 12:44 PM Subject: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) -Original Message- From: Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Tue, Jul 16, 2013 9:42 am Subject: Re: [U2] UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) But with programmers able to create new DICT entries as they will, how do you *keep* it spotless? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse)
You silly boys and girls, you don't need dictionaries to do a UML class diagram. You just need UniBasic code, Eclipse to index your code, and XLr8 to create the XML. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com Spelling is optional for U2 programmers ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse)
Yea, but who's going to read, and understand, the XML? :-) Bill Untitled Page - Original Message - *From:* dave...@gmail.com *To:* U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org *Date:* 7/16/2013 2:05 PM *Subject:* Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) You silly boys and girls, you don't need dictionaries to do a UML class diagram. You just need UniBasic code, Eclipse to index your code, and XLr8 to create the XML. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com Spelling is optional for U2 programmers ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse)
How does it know what to call the data elements? Code typically won't call an element Date.Hired But the HR processing module, might just write the Action Date or even the System Date into field 12 or something It's up to the dictionary, and/or human knowledge of what the date means in this case, to know it's the Date.Hired. So how do you address that problem by just reading code? -Original Message- From: Doug Averch dave...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Tue, Jul 16, 2013 2:05 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) You silly boys and girls, you don't need dictionaries to do a UML class diagram. You just need UniBasic code, Eclipse to index your code, and XLr8 to create the XML. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com Spelling is optional for U2 programmers ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse)
Doctor who gets into the mix. Thats an interesting use for Eclipse. Thanks - Original Message - From: Doug Averch dave...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 3:05 PM Subject: Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) You silly boys and girls, you don't need dictionaries to do a UML class diagram. You just need UniBasic code, Eclipse to index your code, and XLr8 to create the XML. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com Spelling is optional for U2 programmers ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse)
If you use equates (EQUATE ACTION.DATE TO 12) then our XLr8 Eclipse based system knows that your destination is 12 and is called ACTION.DATE. If you U2 dictionary has 5 references to the position 12, then you will have to have add a definition file to allow the translation to something other than 12. This really is not Rocket Science. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com XLr8 Tools for the Universe and Unidata On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 3:19 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: How does it know what to call the data elements? Code typically won't call an element Date.Hired But the HR processing module, might just write the Action Date or even the System Date into field 12 or something It's up to the dictionary, and/or human knowledge of what the date means in this case, to know it's the Date.Hired. So how do you address that problem by just reading code? -Original Message- From: Doug Averch dave...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Tue, Jul 16, 2013 2:05 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) You silly boys and girls, you don't need dictionaries to do a UML class diagram. You just need UniBasic code, Eclipse to index your code, and XLr8 to create the XML. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com Spelling is optional for U2 programmers ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse)
If your starting from scratch, that would be a great. Standardization is always the best thing for oganization, but most Pick systems are made up of 20-30 years of programmers to came and went with differing styles. Maybe because of Pick's lack of organization enforcement - that is one of it's failings - it puts all the burden of documentation onto the programmers - Nobody got time for that! -Original Message- From: Doug Averch Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 5:31 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) If you use equates (EQUATE ACTION.DATE TO 12) then our XLr8 Eclipse based system knows that your destination is 12 and is called ACTION.DATE. If you U2 dictionary has 5 references to the position 12, then you will have to have add a definition file to allow the translation to something other than 12. This really is not Rocket Science. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com XLr8 Tools for the Universe and Unidata On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 3:19 PM, Wjhonson wjhon...@aol.com wrote: How does it know what to call the data elements? Code typically won't call an element Date.Hired But the HR processing module, might just write the Action Date or even the System Date into field 12 or something It's up to the dictionary, and/or human knowledge of what the date means in this case, to know it's the Date.Hired. So how do you address that problem by just reading code? -Original Message- From: Doug Averch dave...@gmail.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Tue, Jul 16, 2013 2:05 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Fwd: UML mapping tool for MV (UniVerse) You silly boys and girls, you don't need dictionaries to do a UML class diagram. You just need UniBasic code, Eclipse to index your code, and XLr8 to create the XML. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com Spelling is optional for U2 programmers ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
