Re: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last Week In Denver
Chuck, please forgive me if it looks like I'm jumping into a Moderator issue; that is not my intent! As a private citizen and consultant and ex-list-host, I'd like to address this current discussion. I think that list members like Tony G and Susan J are being unfairly castigated (no R in there, so chill) for their postings. First, a brief summary of history: I hosted the u2-users list for 9+ years. It was a growing experience for all of us. We eventually hit the point where the Geeks didn't want to have their list defiled with anything non-technical. About the same time, the IBM contributors were dropping out because of the noise-to-signal ratio. That's when we split the non-technical discussions off to a different list, u2-community--much to the verbal dismay of some people yet unto this day. At the same time, the [ad] tagging was introduced to allow the purist geeks to avoid anything smelling like Real World Marketing. The usage of the tags has changed slightly since I turned the reins over to U2UG, but the intent seems to be the same. Now for the Cyber-Spanking (yes; I'm the one who coined the term): Tagging is a voluntary thing. Some people will do it, some won't. Most will try, but forget, or be inconsistent. For heaven's sake, people are human. They forget. They don't think in terms of, how can I write this in order to pussyfoot around the greatest number of underpaid geek's raw nerve endings? Yes, I've noted that Tony and Susan and others mention their services and products in their postings. So what? If you don't like it, hit the delete key. Set up a spam filter to trash their postings. Ignore their suggestions that usually proceed mention of their products (thus willfully ignoring free advice in the process). If you hate their postings, filter them. If you don't know how to do that, you really, really shouldn't be allowed access to the Internet. Let me rain on your sanctimonious parade a little bit more: In the almost ten years I hosted the list, I was asked many times, what do you get out of this? I had calls from IBM wondering what financial or marketing advantage this gave me. The answer? NONE. To my colleagues on the list who run their own businesses--don't worry about it. In 9+ years of running the list, do you know how many sales/projects I got from the effort? ZERO! (It was a work of payback to the community.) My analysis was that 95% or more of the (mostly non-posting lurkers) of the list not only do not have the authority to sign a check, their opinions are not taken into account by management when purchasing decisions are made. So to the whiners about sales pitches on The List, want us to do a statistical analysis of your postings to see how much content or technical knowledge you contribute compared to what non-AD postings you receive? To the (very few) who do mention their services and products on the list, I ask a simple question: Are you getting enough (any) leads that make putting up with this abuse from the non-check-writing members worth your harassment? Just think about it. Are you more interested in free information exchange, or coercing people to post things YOUR way? -- Regards, Clif ~~~ W. Clifton Oliver, CCP CLIFTON OLIVER ASSOCIATES Tel: +1 619 460 5678Web: www.oliver.com ~~~ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last Week In Denver
Thanks for the history and mini-rant, Clif. While little differences of opinion like this recent one are common in e-mail communities, this type might be classified as the type found in communities that have more lock-down rules and are moderated in a way similar to ours. This might seem like a big leap, but I think my recommendation below is oddly related to the current chatter. Before stating this very risky recommendation (for me), I want to be clear and open on a few matters: 1) the following recommendation has a self-interest so that I can, once again, feel free to post to this list, one where I once enjoyed the interactions, but 2) this is not a recommendation that is exclusively out of self-interest. Even if I never post again, I think this will help u2-users be an even better community. As a past president and one of the founders of the U2UG, I would like to see a thriving, successful community of MV professionals here, with everyone who is interested feeling free to chat about relevant topics and even community-building topics that might be slightly to the side. 3) I will mention again that while I still have connections to U2 and am still a customer of the personal edition, I am focused on InterSystems Cache' right now, so like others on the list who might be working with OpenQM, jBASE, D3, Revelation, or other flavors of MultiValue as their primary toolset, my interests are not the same as someone with a U2 production printer problem, corrupt file, or looking for best practices for 24/7 with UniData, for example. I continue to do research on data models as one of my hobbies, however (exciting life I lead, eh?), in particular the relational model and Pick (aka the Nelson-Pick model, aka the MultiValue model) and have an interest in all aspects of MV and the MV community. Recommendation: I recommend that u2-community be closed down and that all with any interest in U2, whether as consultants, 3rd party vendors, VARs, end-customers, DBAs, systems analysts, network administrators, researchers, magazine editors, conference planners, or with any other angle are free to jump in and contribute. I further recommend that the moderators be free to focus on such matters as real abuses of the list, such as spammers or people who are truly offensive to the majority of readers with their postings, along with a regular posting of a FAQ, perhaps, with such items as requesting that folks put [AD] at the start of a subject line if they are doing a blatant ad and are free to skip it if not. If someone keeps forgetting this, they could be cyber-spanked (thanks for letting us know you coined that one, Clif) off-list before getting to an on-list notification. End of Recommendation Each time a moderator says something on the list, doing their jobs as they have been instructed, it reminds me how the community is one I once enjoyed, but where I hardly dare post anymore. I, too, have a knee-jerk reaction thinking that there are inconsistencies or that the list is run according to principles with which I disagree. I like Chuck and he was doing his job, but I didn't like Doug being told on the list to remember to put [AD] in the subject line. That could have been done offlist without disturbing the community. Additionally, you are already aware (but others might not be) that I think that in order to have a well-functioning community, you need to accept meta-discussions (discussions about the list or community). These have, in the past, been closed down by moving them to the u2-community list (typically a death-blow to the discussion). You also need meta-discussions about the technology employed, permitting discussions of theory as well as practice, in my opinion. Shutting any such discussions down makes for a community that feels more shut down than freed up. So, what do you think, can we permit this list to be a community, accepting threads on a full range of topics relevant to U2 users, recognizing that no one will be interested in everything, but that these days we have all learned how to filter mail, scan it quickly, or otherwise read what we want to read and dismiss the rest? OK, now THAT was far too long a question, but I'm not going to reword it. Spank me. smiles. --dawn On 9/6/07, Clifton Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chuck, please forgive me if it looks like I'm jumping into a Moderator issue; that is not my intent! As a private citizen and consultant and ex-list-host, I'd like to address this current discussion. I think that list members like Tony G and Susan J are being unfairly castigated (no R in there, so chill) for their postings. First, a brief summary of history: I hosted the u2-users list for 9+ years. It was a growing experience for all of us. We eventually hit the point where the Geeks didn't want to have their list defiled with anything non-technical. About the same time, the IBM contributors were dropping out because of the noise-to-signal ratio. That's when we
Re: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last Week In Denver
You hit the nail on the head Dawn. If I am unable to determine that a thread is a waste of my time, and thus delete the whole thing, maybe I'm the one with the problem. I do it all the time, though I do tend to look at the 6th or 7th posting to see if the thread has morphed into something else. :-) Bruce Bruce M Neylon Health Care Management Group Recommendation: I recommend that u2-community be closed down and that all with any interest in U2, whether as consultants, 3rd party vendors, VARs, end-customers, DBAs, systems analysts, network administrators, researchers, magazine editors, conference planners, or with any other angle are free to jump in and contribute. I further recommend that the moderators be free to focus on such matters as real abuses of the list, such as spammers or people who are truly offensive to the majority of readers with their postings, along with a regular posting of a FAQ, perhaps, with such items as requesting that folks put [AD] at the start of a subject line if they are doing a blatant ad and are free to skip it if not. If someone keeps forgetting this, they could be cyber-spanked (thanks for letting us know you coined that one, Clif) off-list before getting to an on-list notification. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last Week In Denver
sigh Jeee -- I cannot believe all this turmoil Dawn has pretty much laid out the way I feel -- I have a headache so I won't be as nice This IS supposed to be a community...so why the need for a separation in lists? Community members interact in many different ways... You CAN read, so if you scan the subject line and have no need for the info -- skip it -- and grow up -- if its U2 related in any way shape or form it may be useful to someone else even if you consider it an advertisement. If you deem that the subject line was misleading...unless you have severely limited brain activity I am sure you can surmise that after the first line or two. Restricting the list in a tight fisted mode is nothing short of removing yst from Analyst... If it's an advertisement regarding where to score some viagra -- well then that would be spam and that is what Chuck has realm over filtering it out. It's a pain watching over multiple lists -- been there, done that, monitored a forum on comp-u-snot years ago [gawd I'm dating myself] Tag schmag...how many of you have really looked at the tag verus the remaining subject line? If you subscribe to both do you really segregate the lists by them so you don't inadvertently open the wrong one? [if you do -- then I have a game by Milton-Bradley for you to buy-- LIFE] A little laughter never hurt anyone...sometimes it's what you need to lighten the mood when you are pulling your hair out over something heavy on the brain.. Ok going off on week long threads on silly stuff can be a bit much, but once again..if you are tired of the joke...SKIP IT One suggestion -- simply going to the well for information on a particular subject could use improved indexing and search functions. I have NEVER been able to extrapolate information from this list via a search...it's aggravating because, just like Prego...I know its in there! -- Debster -- Original message -- From: Dawn Wolthuis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks for the history and mini-rant, Clif. While little differences of opinion like this recent one are common in e-mail communities, this type might be classified as the type found in communities that have more lock-down rules and are moderated in a way similar to ours. This might seem like a big leap, but I think my recommendation below is oddly related to the current chatter. Before stating this very risky recommendation (for me), I want to be clear and open on a few matters: 1) the following recommendation has a self-interest so that I can, once again, feel free to post to this list, one where I once enjoyed the interactions, but 2) this is not a recommendation that is exclusively out of self-interest. Even if I never post again, I think this will help u2-users be an even better community. As a past president and one of the founders of the U2UG, I would like to see a thriving, successful community of MV professionals here, with everyone who is interested feeling free to chat about relevant topics and even community-building topics that might be slightly to the side. 3) I will mention again that while I still have connections to U2 and am still a customer of the personal edition, I am focused on InterSystems Cache' right now, so like others on the list who might be working with OpenQM, jBASE, D3, Revelation, or other flavors of MultiValue as their primary toolset, my interests are not the same as someone with a U2 production printer problem, corrupt file, or looking for best practices for 24/7 with UniData, for example. I continue to do research on data models as one of my hobbies, however (exciting life I lead, eh?), in particular the relational model and Pick (aka the Nelson-Pick model, aka the MultiValue model) and have an interest in all aspects of MV and the MV community. Recommendation: I recommend that u2-community be closed down and that all with any interest in U2, whether as consultants, 3rd party vendors, VARs, end-customers, DBAs, systems analysts, network administrators, researchers, magazine editors, conference planners, or with any other angle are free to jump in and contribute. I further recommend that the moderators be free to focus on such matters as real abuses of the list, such as spammers or people who are truly offensive to the majority of readers with their postings, along with a regular posting of a FAQ, perhaps, with such items as requesting that folks put [AD] at the start of a subject line if they are doing a blatant ad and are free to skip it if not. If someone keeps forgetting this, they could be cyber-spanked (thanks for letting us know you coined that one, Clif) off-list before getting to an on-list notification. End of Recommendation Each time a moderator says something on the list, doing their jobs as they have been instructed, it reminds me how the community is one I once enjoyed,
Re: [U2] RE: Get a grip - was ads - was U2 University Last Week In Denver
BTW -- if ALL you want is strictly technical information -- then RTFM, Tech Connect etc...I use this list to ask others for help regarding their personal experience and opinions on subject matters where I could not get the answers via those previously mentioned methods. If the answer includes suggestions on third party tools...then that may be truly the answer I was seeking. -- Debster -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] sigh Jeee -- I cannot believe all this turmoil Dawn has pretty much laid out the way I feel -- I have a headache so I won't be as nice This IS supposed to be a community...so why the need for a separation in lists? Community members interact in many different ways... You CAN read, so if you scan the subject line and have no need for the info -- skip it -- and grow up -- if its U2 related in any way shape or form it may be useful to someone else even if you consider it an advertisement. If you deem that the subject line was misleading...unless you have severely limited brain activity I am sure you can surmise that after the first line or two. Restricting the list in a tight fisted mode is nothing short of removing yst from Analyst... If it's an advertisement regarding where to score some viagra -- well then that would be spam and that is what Chuck has realm over filtering it out. It's a pain watching over multiple lists -- been there, done that, monitored a forum on comp-u-snot years ago [gawd I'm dating myself] Tag schmag...how many of you have really looked at the tag verus the remaining subject line? If you subscribe to both do you really segregate the lists by them so you don't inadvertently open the wrong one? [if you do -- then I have a game by Milton-Bradley for you to buy-- LIFE] A little laughter never hurt anyone...sometimes it's what you need to lighten the mood when you are pulling your hair out over something heavy on the brain.. Ok going off on week long threads on silly stuff can be a bit much, but once again..if you are tired of the joke...SKIP IT One suggestion -- simply going to the well for information on a particular subject could use improved indexing and search functions. I have NEVER been able to extrapolate information from this list via a search...it's aggravating because, just like Prego...I know its in there! -- Debster -- Original message -- From: Dawn Wolthuis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks for the history and mini-rant, Clif. While little differences of opinion like this recent one are common in e-mail communities, this type might be classified as the type found in communities that have more lock-down rules and are moderated in a way similar to ours. This might seem like a big leap, but I think my recommendation below is oddly related to the current chatter. Before stating this very risky recommendation (for me), I want to be clear and open on a few matters: 1) the following recommendation has a self-interest so that I can, once again, feel free to post to this list, one where I once enjoyed the interactions, but 2) this is not a recom mendation that is exclusively out of self-interest. Even if I never post again, I think this will help u2-users be an even better community. As a past president and one of the founders of the U2UG, I would like to see a thriving, successful community of MV professionals here, with everyone who is interested feeling free to chat about relevant topics and even community-building topics that might be slightly to the side. 3) I will mention again that while I still have connections to U2 and am still a customer of the personal edition, I am focused on InterSystems Cache' right now, so like others on the list who might be working with OpenQM, jBASE, D3, Revelation, or other flavors of MultiValue as their primary toolset, my interests are not the same as someone with a U2 production printer problem, corrupt file, or looking for best practices for 24/7 with UniData , for example. I continue to do research on data models as one of my hobbies, however (exciting life I lead, eh?), in particular the relational model and Pick (aka the Nelson-Pick model, aka the MultiValue model) and have an interest in all aspects of MV and the MV community. Recommendation: I recommend that u2-community be closed down and that all with any interest in U2, whether as consultants, 3rd party vendors, VARs, end-customers, DBAs, systems analysts, network administrators, researchers, magazine editors, conference planners, or with any other angle are free to jump in and contribute. I further recommend that the moderators be free to focus on such matters as real abuses of the list, such as spammers or people who are truly offensive to the majority of readers with their postings, along with a regular posting of a FAQ, perhaps, with such ite ms as requesting that
