Re: [U2] The list format and usefulness
Once again, let's move this to U2- Community. /To subscribe to the u2-users or u2-community mailing lists or digest lists, send one or more of the following lines in the BODY (not the subject) of an email addressed to [EMAIL PROTECTED] subscribe u2-users subscribe u2-users-digest subscribe u2-community subscribe u2-community-digest/ -- - Charles Barouch, Moderator [EMAIL PROTECTED] - U2-Users Moderator --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] The list format and usefulness
David, I enjoy the multiple responses on the list. Often there is more than one way to skin a cat and that is reflected in the number of answers. Even if not, it is good to know that people are listening and prepared to respond. I would not like to see any changes that discourgage people from responding - particularly those who are normally reticent. A good email filter is all you need. So long as the list traffic doesn't interfere with your regular email, where is the problem? The only gripe I would have is where the subject line becomes divorced from the topic. Then you can't scan the list quickly. But that is a matter for individual discipline and the occasional moderator input. Brian --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] The list format and usefulness
For what its worth I agree with Brian. Discussion should be there for all to see rather than relying on someone summarising a whole load of emails to a personal box and missing the very point that someone in Singapore needed to know I pick up all sort of bits and pieces from this list and find the various views most interesting and would rather not se it changed. Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 21 December 2004 09:00 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [U2] The list format and usefulness David, I enjoy the multiple responses on the list. Often there is more than one way to skin a cat and that is reflected in the number of answers. Even if not, it is good to know that people are listening and prepared to respond. I would not like to see any changes that discourgage people from responding - particularly those who are normally reticent. A good email filter is all you need. So long as the list traffic doesn't interfere with your regular email, where is the problem? The only gripe I would have is where the subject line becomes divorced from the topic. Then you can't scan the list quickly. But that is a matter for individual discipline and the occasional moderator input. Brian --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] The list format and usefulness
Just to throw oil on the fire... This is the technical list.please take this to the community list (very big grin..) Les 3 more days work to go -Original Message- From: Charles Barouch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 21 December 2004 06:31 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [U2] The list format and usefulness David, What I do is subscribe to both the list and the digest. That way I can skim and delete the individual messages as they come in (from the list), still have all the content if I need it later (from the digest). To control bandwidth, I have them going to two different names, so I can opt to not pull the e-mail with the separate posts if I don't have time or speed to spare for it. As moderator I can't delete-without-reading, but you could. I know it's not the answer you proposed, but I find it a workable solution. What has me more curious is your comment about the online indexing being insufficient. What would you like to see done differently? - Chuck Info-glut Barouch Clifton Oliver wrote: Full content. A lot of times watching how someone else is thinking is more instructive than what they are thinking. For a problem, an answer is enough. To learn how to solve a class of problems, watching the process that more experienced (or even just different) techs go through is an education worth the noise on the channel. IMO. Clif -- - Charles Barouch (718) 762-3884 x 1 - Key Ally Voice Mail cbarouch - Skype (Free VoIP Phone) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Consulting services [EMAIL PROTECTED] - News [EMAIL PROTECTED] - U2-Users Moderator [EMAIL PROTECTED]- Zeus Data Integration Mount Olympus, Home of Zeus Data Integration --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the addressee only. If you have received this message in error, you must not copy, distribute or disclose the contents; please notify the sender immediately and delete the message. This message is attributed to the sender and may not necessarily reflect the view of Travis Perkins plc or its subsidiaries (Travis Perkins). Agreements binding Travis Perkins may not be concluded by means of e-mail communication. E-mail transmissions are not secure and Travis Perkins accepts no responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. Whilst steps have been taken to ensure that this message is virus free, Travis Perkins accepts no liability for infection and recommends that you scan this e-mail and any attachments. Part of Travis Perkins plc. Registered Office: Lodge Way House, Lodge Way, Harlestone Road, Northampton, NN5 7UG. --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] The list format and usefulness
1) stops arguments on the relative benefits of a GOTO over a LOOP for the 53rd time. (30 replies on the last one). I'll agree with you here. 2) stops multiple answers clogging bandwidth of everybody on the list. eg. being told how to MAT var = '' 9 times. Let's think this one through a bit more. How many of those people do you suppose might have been composing replies simultaneously (or close enough for practical purposes)? The quick response of those who follow this group is one of its greatest assets. Many replies with the same suggestions simply validates the advice given. I certainly prefer this to newsgroups that devolve into off-topic flame-wars and sniping at personalities. I am about to drop one newsgroup I was quite interested in for exactly this reason. === Norman Morgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.brake.com === Cold, leftover pizzathe breakfast of champions! === -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.0 - Release Date: 12/17/2004 --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] The list format and usefulness
My own redundant contributions may represent a style that is prevelant and cleaning it up may reduce volume. If the first poster asks What's 2+2 and I may know the answer, I reply with '4'. There may be 15 replies from other members with similar answers. Perhaps one solution (and I should take my own advice) is to read through the existing responses and only provide a new or unique answer. Thus, the post will get one occurrence of '4' instead of 20. I'm not usually on-line 9-5 and am often tempted toreply with '4' upon first reading when I get home. I'm trying to catch myself by reading the other responses before being redundant. Sometimes the posts may appear to be a test and we don't want to appear non-informed so we reply. It ain't a test and if it were a test or survey, then the original poster should say so. My 1 cent. - Original Message - From: Norman Morgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 8:52 AM Subject: RE: [U2] The list format and usefulness 1) stops arguments on the relative benefits of a GOTO over a LOOP for the 53rd time. (30 replies on the last one). I'll agree with you here. 2) stops multiple answers clogging bandwidth of everybody on the list. eg. being told how to MAT var = '' 9 times. Let's think this one through a bit more. How many of those people do you suppose might have been composing replies simultaneously (or close enough for practical purposes)? The quick response of those who follow this group is one of its greatest assets. Many replies with the same suggestions simply validates the advice given. I certainly prefer this to newsgroups that devolve into off-topic flame-wars and sniping at personalities. I am about to drop one newsgroup I was quite interested in for exactly this reason. === Norman Morgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.brake.com === Cold, leftover pizzathe breakfast of champions! === -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.0 - Release Date: 12/17/2004 --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] The list format and usefulness
Clif [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on Mon, 20 Dec 2004 21:31:17 -0800 Full content. A lot of times watching how someone else is thinking is more instructive than what they are thinking. I wholeheartedly agree! I subscribe only to the digests, in part from being distracted 100 times a day, but mostly because I can more easily archive a thought process thread. For a problem, an answer is enough. To learn how to solve a class of problems, watching the process that more experienced (or even just different) techs go through is an education worth the noise on the channel. Besides, the last GOTO discussion was not just a zealot's campaign - there were instructive issues raised regarding benchmarking and coding efficiency, not just syntax. Now, if people would learn to trim the original disclaimers from their replies... :- --Tom Pellitieri Century Equipment, Toledo Ohio --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] The list format and usefulness
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Logan, David (SST - Adelaide) Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 11:14 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [U2] The list format and usefulness Hi Bruce, Your point about the immediate receivers is not really valid. Why does everybodys reply have to go to everybody on the list? Multiply the answers this morning by the number of subscribers times the length of each message and the bandwidth consumed becomes quite large. Given that this list deals with both UV and UD, and that UV can be of multiple flavors (and syntaxes, or syntaxi?) One of the benefits of all answers to all recipients is that if one of those answers isn't quite right, or not the best fit, others can chime in on why or why not. Granted on other summary lists I have belonged, There are the occasisonal ammended summaries, but with the all to all, it feels more like a group, with the dynamics that go along with the group. The only problem is there is no real-time facilitator to keep the conversation from going astray. Often, just in the replies there are hints to other issues that are in the back of my mind just echoing to get out, but if only a summary with the parts of the replies that dealt with that problem were posted, those hints may never have the benefit of being helpful. George David Logan Database Administrator --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] The list format and usefulness
Perhaps one solution (and I should take my own advice) is to read through the existing responses and only provide a new or unique answer. Thus, the post will get one occurrence of '4' instead of 20. there are still times I reply to the only item in my inbox and then due to list-lag (unavoidable), don't see my reply for a couple of hours. In the My $0.02 is to follow *ancient* email ettiquete and copy what you're replying to .. --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] The list format and usefulness
My $0.02 I strongly disagree with this approach. 1) I think you would lose some valuable and useful responses as not all summaries will be posted 2) I like to see the alternative approaches as my particular problem may not be exactly like the one posted, but one of the solutions might well work for me. 3) I can easily delete threads I don't want to read so this is not a bother. I consider the risk of missing useful information more important. (BTW, GOTO's are the root of all evil :) ) 4) In today's world bandwidth is simply not the issue it used to be. Give me the information and let me search. If it is of concern to someone then can select digest mode which would at least control when the impact is seen. I am not say that Dave it doing this, but please don't let this board turn into a place where people get flamed for asking a repetitive or dumb question. I have seen this happen in other forums and it really turns off active participation by all but a few 'elite' members. For me I would rather see folks spend a little more time on the subject line to make searching easier then worry about posting summaries. Rich Taylor | Senior Programmer/Analyst| VERTIS 250 W. Pratt Street | Baltimore, MD 21201 P 410.361.8688 | F 410.528.0319 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.vertisinc.com Vertis is the premier provider of targeted advertising, media, and marketing services that drive consumers to marketers more effectively. The more they complicate the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain - Montgomery Scott NCC-1701 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Logan, David (SST - Adelaide) Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 7:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [U2] The list format and usefulness Hi Folks, After becoming a little frustrated of seeing and reading the same old stuff, day in and day out, and IMHO the list not having the same useful content as previously, I have number of suggestions. With a number of other groups, a different format is used, a question is asked, replies are sent directly to the person asking the question and this person then summarises for the groups benefit. This has couple of immediate advantages : 1) stops arguments on the relative benefits of a GOTO over a LOOP for the 53rd time. (30 replies on the last one). 2) stops multiple answers clogging bandwidth of everybody on the list. eg. being told how to MAT var = '' 9 times. People need to also have a little more discipline and perhaps utilise the community list when appropriate. I choose not to subscribe so am not aware if it gets much of a hammering but perhaps it could do with a little more. This format provides that discipline. I am aware there useful posts and the responses can be very helpful but we could also promote the use and searching of the archives prior to posting. This would trim down a number of the duplicate posts. I feel these simple measures would cut down considerably on duplicate and unnecessary traffic. Donning asbestos underpants now. Regards David Logan Database Administrator HP Managed Services 148 Frome Street, Adelaide 5000 Australia +61 8 8408 4273 - Work +61 417 268 665 - Mobile +61 8 8408 4259 - Fax --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] The list format and usefulness
Les, You win the prize. PLEASE MOVE THIS TO U2-COMMUNITY. To subscribe to the u2-users or u2-community mailing lists or digest lists, send one or more of the following lines in the BODY (not the subject) of an email addressed to [EMAIL PROTECTED] subscribe u2-users subscribe u2-users-digest subscribe u2-community subscribe u2-community-digest - Charles Barouch, Moderator Les Hewkin wrote: Just to throw oil on the fire... This is the technical list.please take this to the community list (very big grin..) Les 3 more days work to go -Original Message- From: Charles Barouch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 21 December 2004 06:31 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [U2] The list format and usefulness David, What I do is subscribe to both the list and the digest. That way I can skim and delete the individual messages as they come in (from the list), still have all the content if I need it later (from the digest). To control bandwidth, I have them going to two different names, so I can opt to not pull the e-mail with the separate posts if I don't have time or speed to spare for it. As moderator I can't delete-without-reading, but you could. I know it's not the answer you proposed, but I find it a workable solution. What has me more curious is your comment about the online indexing being insufficient. What would you like to see done differently? - Chuck Info-glut Barouch Clifton Oliver wrote: Full content. A lot of times watching how someone else is thinking is more instructive than what they are thinking. For a problem, an answer is enough. To learn how to solve a class of problems, watching the process that more experienced (or even just different) techs go through is an education worth the noise on the channel. IMO. Clif -- - Charles Barouch, Moderator [EMAIL PROTECTED] - U2-Users Moderator --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] The list format and usefulness
I agree with Rich, with an addendum: Hey, simple fix. The low bandwidth users can simply unsubscribe when they don't have any questions, and then subscribe again when they do until they have an answer and then unsubscribe again. And as far as zealots go, that's a poor subject to piggy-back on top of a suggestion for LIMITING responses, as obviously it just functioned to solicit a huge response. An opinion on *any* subject is BOUND to have more than one side, and branding someone as a fanatic because they don't share your opinion is just plain mean, disrespectful and has nothing to do with the purpose of the list of helping those that need help through community good will. I avoid using GOTO's, but there are languages and constructs where NOT using a GOTO just doesn't make any sense. zeal.ot( P ) Pronunciation Key (zlt) n. One who is zealous, especially excessively so. A fanatically committed person. Allen -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Richard Taylor Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 08:15 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [U2] The list format and usefulness My $0.02 I strongly disagree with this approach. 1) I think you would lose some valuable and useful responses as not all summaries will be posted 2) I like to see the alternative approaches as my particular problem may not be exactly like the one posted, but one of the solutions might well work for me. 3) I can easily delete threads I don't want to read so this is not a bother. I consider the risk of missing useful information more important. (BTW, GOTO's are the root of all evil :) ) 4) In today's world bandwidth is simply not the issue it used to be. Give me the information and let me search. If it is of concern to someone then can select digest mode which would at least control when the impact is seen. I am not say that Dave it doing this, but please don't let this board turn into a place where people get flamed for asking a repetitive or dumb question. I have seen this happen in other forums and it really turns off active participation by all but a few 'elite' members. For me I would rather see folks spend a little more time on the subject line to make searching easier then worry about posting summaries. Rich Taylor | Senior Programmer/Analyst| VERTIS 250 W. Pratt Street | Baltimore, MD 21201 P 410.361.8688 | F 410.528.0319 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.vertisinc.com Vertis is the premier provider of targeted advertising, media, and marketing services that drive consumers to marketers more effectively. The more they complicate the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain - Montgomery Scott NCC-1701 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Logan, David (SST - Adelaide) Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 7:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [U2] The list format and usefulness Hi Folks, After becoming a little frustrated of seeing and reading the same old stuff, day in and day out, and IMHO the list not having the same useful content as previously, I have number of suggestions. With a number of other groups, a different format is used, a question is asked, replies are sent directly to the person asking the question and this person then summarises for the groups benefit. This has couple of immediate advantages : 1) stops arguments on the relative benefits of a GOTO over a LOOP for the 53rd time. (30 replies on the last one). 2) stops multiple answers clogging bandwidth of everybody on the list. eg. being told how to MAT var = '' 9 times. People need to also have a little more discipline and perhaps utilise the community list when appropriate. I choose not to subscribe so am not aware if it gets much of a hammering but perhaps it could do with a little more. This format provides that discipline. I am aware there useful posts and the responses can be very helpful but we could also promote the use and searching of the archives prior to posting. This would trim down a number of the duplicate posts. I feel these simple measures would cut down considerably on duplicate and unnecessary traffic. Donning asbestos underpants now. Regards David Logan Database Administrator HP Managed Services 148 Frome Street, Adelaide 5000 Australia +61 8 8408 4273 - Work +61 417 268 665 - Mobile +61 8 8408 4259 - Fax --- --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] The list format and usefulness
Les, Many thanks for your reply on this 'useful' discussion. I am new to universe and have subscribed to get a lot of information on what's going on, what you gurus have to say about uv, etc. David, just a comment to you, and I apologize upfront if I seem to be rude: You have started the one big discussions which you seem to claim NOT to be useful. Is this the thing you have intended when posting? My way of dealing with very useful discussions is to delete the crap after reading 2 or 3 lines of the reply. If the reply is not of interest, I just delete it. And David, I suggest that you do so as well. For me as a newbie in uv the technical discussions are most valuable, as an oldie in IT (20 yrs) I know about the need for people to express themselves in useful discussions - people don't get me wrong! It is all appreciated!!! What I want to say is: I only keep those posts which are or seem to be valueable for me, the rest is just being deleted. It is as simple as that. And therefore it does not need further discussions. Have a wonderful Christmas and a Happy new Year. Kindest Regards Bodo Frost Midland Brick Company Pty Ltd 102 Great Northern Highway MIDDLE SWAN WA 6056 Phone: (08) 9273 5589 Fax:(08) 9273 5523 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CAUTION: The information contained in this document is of a confidential nature and its sole use is for communication purposes between the sender and addressee. Your respect of this confidentiality is appreciated. If you have received this document in error, please notify the sender on the above telephone. Thank you. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Les Hewkin Sent: Tuesday, 21 December 2004 6:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [U2] The list format and usefulness Just to throw oil on the fire... This is the technical list.please take this to the community list (very big grin..) Les 3 more days work to go -Original Message- From: Charles Barouch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 21 December 2004 06:31 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [U2] The list format and usefulness David, What I do is subscribe to both the list and the digest. That way I can skim and delete the individual messages as they come in (from the list), still have all the content if I need it later (from the digest). To control bandwidth, I have them going to two different names, so I can opt to not pull the e-mail with the separate posts if I don't have time or speed to spare for it. As moderator I can't delete-without-reading, but you could. I know it's not the answer you proposed, but I find it a workable solution. What has me more curious is your comment about the online indexing being insufficient. What would you like to see done differently? - Chuck Info-glut Barouch Clifton Oliver wrote: Full content. A lot of times watching how someone else is thinking is more instructive than what they are thinking. For a problem, an answer is enough. To learn how to solve a class of problems, watching the process that more experienced (or even just different) techs go through is an education worth the noise on the channel. IMO. Clif -- - Charles Barouch (718) 762-3884 x 1 - Key Ally Voice Mail cbarouch - Skype (Free VoIP Phone) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Consulting services [EMAIL PROTECTED] - News [EMAIL PROTECTED] - U2-Users Moderator [EMAIL PROTECTED]- Zeus Data Integration Mount Olympus, Home of Zeus Data Integration --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the addressee only. If you have received this message in error, you must not copy, distribute or disclose the contents; please notify the sender immediately and delete the message. This message is attributed to the sender and may not necessarily reflect the view of Travis Perkins plc or its subsidiaries (Travis Perkins). Agreements binding Travis Perkins may not be concluded by means of e-mail communication. E-mail transmissions are not secure and Travis Perkins accepts no responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. Whilst steps have been taken to ensure that this message is virus free, Travis Perkins accepts no liability for infection and recommends that you scan this e-mail and any attachments. Part of Travis Perkins plc. Registered Office: Lodge Way House, Lodge Way, Harlestone Road, Northampton, NN5 7UG. --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential to the intended recipient and may be privileged. If you have received this email inadvertently or you are not the intended recipient, you may not disseminate, distribute, copy or in any way rely on it. Further, you should notify
Re: [U2] The list format and usefulness
I don't mind the volume of u2 email and I agree that bandwidth has nothing to do with anything. I don't read my email until way past 5pm so I tend to get a settled list. Right now it's 1:50 am as I'm returning from this weekly client. When I see the multiple RE:'s I look upstream to see the original post and see if it interests me. As I shift-click to multiple-delete them, I have Outlook Express showing me the majority (top portion) of each response and can quickly (within 1 second) determine if it appeals to me or not. Thus I can blow by 40-60 items and a dozen or more mortg.age or enlargeme.nt emails pretty quickly. Let's not forget the mucho 'out of office replies' that happen this time of year. I don't think it's a real problem. my 1 cent. - Original Message - From: Richard Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:15 AM Subject: RE: [U2] The list format and usefulness My $0.02 I strongly disagree with this approach. 1) I think you would lose some valuable and useful responses as not all summaries will be posted 2) I like to see the alternative approaches as my particular problem may not be exactly like the one posted, but one of the solutions might well work for me. 3) I can easily delete threads I don't want to read so this is not a bother. I consider the risk of missing useful information more important. (BTW, GOTO's are the root of all evil :) ) 4) In today's world bandwidth is simply not the issue it used to be. Give me the information and let me search. If it is of concern to someone then can select digest mode which would at least control when the impact is seen. I am not say that Dave it doing this, but please don't let this board turn into a place where people get flamed for asking a repetitive or dumb question. I have seen this happen in other forums and it really turns off active participation by all but a few 'elite' members. For me I would rather see folks spend a little more time on the subject line to make searching easier then worry about posting summaries. Rich Taylor | Senior Programmer/Analyst| VERTIS 250 W. Pratt Street | Baltimore, MD 21201 P 410.361.8688 | F 410.528.0319 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.vertisinc.com Vertis is the premier provider of targeted advertising, media, and marketing services that drive consumers to marketers more effectively. The more they complicate the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain - Montgomery Scott NCC-1701 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Logan, David (SST - Adelaide) Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 7:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [U2] The list format and usefulness Hi Folks, After becoming a little frustrated of seeing and reading the same old stuff, day in and day out, and IMHO the list not having the same useful content as previously, I have number of suggestions. With a number of other groups, a different format is used, a question is asked, replies are sent directly to the person asking the question and this person then summarises for the groups benefit. This has couple of immediate advantages : 1) stops arguments on the relative benefits of a GOTO over a LOOP for the 53rd time. (30 replies on the last one). 2) stops multiple answers clogging bandwidth of everybody on the list. eg. being told how to MAT var = '' 9 times. People need to also have a little more discipline and perhaps utilise the community list when appropriate. I choose not to subscribe so am not aware if it gets much of a hammering but perhaps it could do with a little more. This format provides that discipline. I am aware there useful posts and the responses can be very helpful but we could also promote the use and searching of the archives prior to posting. This would trim down a number of the duplicate posts. I feel these simple measures would cut down considerably on duplicate and unnecessary traffic. Donning asbestos underpants now. Regards David Logan Database Administrator HP Managed Services 148 Frome Street, Adelaide 5000 Australia +61 8 8408 4273 - Work +61 417 268 665 - Mobile +61 8 8408 4259 - Fax --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] The list format and usefulness
I've always thought it is much preferable to read the unuseful discussions on this list than the many Viagra, ..meds.., complimentary..., Why pay more, Nice women, and other emails I regulary get. :-) Merry XMas. Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Frost, Bodo Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 6:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [U2] The list format and usefulness Les, Many thanks for your reply on this 'useful' discussion. I am new to universe and have subscribed to get a lot of information on what's going on, what you gurus have to say about uv, etc. David, just a comment to you, and I apologize upfront if I seem to be rude: You have started the one big discussions which you seem to claim NOT to be useful. Is this the thing you have intended when posting? My way of dealing with very useful discussions is to delete the crap after reading 2 or 3 lines of the reply. If the reply is not of interest, I just delete it. And David, I suggest that you do so as well. For me as a newbie in uv the technical discussions are most valuable, as an oldie in IT (20 yrs) I know about the need for people to express themselves in useful discussions - people don't get me wrong! It is all appreciated!!! What I want to say is: I only keep those posts which are or seem to be valueable for me, the rest is just being deleted. It is as simple as that. And therefore it does not need further discussions. Have a wonderful Christmas and a Happy new Year. Kindest Regards Bodo Frost Midland Brick Company Pty Ltd 102 Great Northern Highway MIDDLE SWAN WA 6056 Phone: (08) 9273 5589 Fax:(08) 9273 5523 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CAUTION: The information contained in this document is of a confidential nature and its sole use is for communication purposes between the sender and addressee. Your respect of this confidentiality is appreciated. If you have received this document in error, please notify the sender on the above telephone. Thank you. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Les Hewkin Sent: Tuesday, 21 December 2004 6:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [U2] The list format and usefulness Just to throw oil on the fire... This is the technical list.please take this to the community list (very big grin..) Les 3 more days work to go -Original Message- From: Charles Barouch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 21 December 2004 06:31 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [U2] The list format and usefulness David, What I do is subscribe to both the list and the digest. That way I can skim and delete the individual messages as they come in (from the list), still have all the content if I need it later (from the digest). To control bandwidth, I have them going to two different names, so I can opt to not pull the e-mail with the separate posts if I don't have time or speed to spare for it. As moderator I can't delete-without-reading, but you could. I know it's not the answer you proposed, but I find it a workable solution. What has me more curious is your comment about the online indexing being insufficient. What would you like to see done differently? - Chuck Info-glut Barouch Clifton Oliver wrote: Full content. A lot of times watching how someone else is thinking is more instructive than what they are thinking. For a problem, an answer is enough. To learn how to solve a class of problems, watching the process that more experienced (or even just different) techs go through is an education worth the noise on the channel. IMO. Clif -- - Charles Barouch (718) 762-3884 x 1 - Key Ally Voice Mail cbarouch - Skype (Free VoIP Phone) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Consulting services [EMAIL PROTECTED] - News [EMAIL PROTECTED] - U2-Users Moderator [EMAIL PROTECTED]- Zeus Data Integration Mount Olympus, Home of Zeus Data Integration --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the addressee only. If you have received this message in error, you must not copy, distribute or disclose the contents; please notify the sender immediately and delete the message. This message is attributed to the sender and may not necessarily reflect the view of Travis Perkins plc or its subsidiaries (Travis Perkins). Agreements binding Travis Perkins may not be concluded by means of e-mail communication. E-mail transmissions are not secure and Travis Perkins accepts no responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. Whilst steps have been taken to ensure that this message is virus free, Travis Perkins accepts no liability for infection and recommends that you scan this e-mail and any
Re: [U2] The list format and usefulness
In a message dated 12/20/2004 7:40:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, Logan, David (SST - Adelaide) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: snip With a number of other groups, a different format is used, a question is asked, replies are sent directly to the person asking the question and this person then summarises for the groups benefit. /snip It's an excellent suggestion David, but doesn't it rely on people actually summarizing ? If they don't then the wisdom of the responders is lost in limbo isn't it? That's the one issue I'd bring up about your idea. Will Johnson Fast Forward Technologies Member of the U2UG Establishing Board --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] The list format and usefulness
Hi Will, Yes it does, it requires discipline and also an acknowledgement by the group that we all rely on everybody else. If you don't summarise, how long will it be before nobody bothers to reply? One of the other lists I subscribe to is the sun-managers list and this works well. Everybody knows the rules and realises that everybody can learn from their own experiences. It is rare that the summary isn't posted. My own opinion is that most people do wish to help and most people learn something from that assistance. As a price to pay, a quick summary is quite cheap. Regards David Logan Database Administrator HP Managed Services 148 Frome Street, Adelaide 5000 Australia +61 8 8408 4273 - Work +61 417 268 665 - Mobile +61 8 8408 4259 - Fax -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 21 December 2004 11:50 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [U2] The list format and usefulness In a message dated 12/20/2004 7:40:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, Logan, David (SST - Adelaide) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: snip With a number of other groups, a different format is used, a question is asked, replies are sent directly to the person asking the question and this person then summarises for the groups benefit. /snip It's an excellent suggestion David, but doesn't it rely on people actually summarizing ? If they don't then the wisdom of the responders is lost in limbo isn't it? That's the one issue I'd bring up about your idea. Will Johnson Fast Forward Technologies Member of the U2UG Establishing Board --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] The list format and usefulness
Hi Bruce, Do you really want the full content or do you want the answer? I don't disagree about Ray W's postings however it stops all the out of office messages along with a large number of tit for tat postings. If the zealots wish to continue, they can do it in private. The list manager used by other lists has a reply-to of the person posting the message. Personally, I'm a bit sick of the arguments. Some folks think it is funny but it ties up an inordinate amount of bandwidth. Your point about the immediate receivers is not really valid. Why does everybodys reply have to go to everybody on the list? Multiply the answers this morning by the number of subscribers times the length of each message and the bandwidth consumed becomes quite large. I'm not trying to control the delay, just redirect the replies to where they should go ie. the original message poster. It is then up to he/she to compose a reasonable summary and post this to the list. We then only have 2 messages to the list, the question and the answer. I don't disagree with the INFOCUS indexing however the price is right and I haven't seen any offers of anything better. It is using another sites donated bandwidth (AFAIK). I'm sure gmane or something else also mirrors the list. Regards David Logan Database Administrator HP Managed Services 148 Frome Street, Adelaide 5000 Australia +61 8 8408 4273 - Work +61 417 268 665 - Mobile +61 8 8408 4259 - Fax -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Nichol Sent: Tuesday, 21 December 2004 12:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [U2] The list format and usefulness Goo'day, David, At 11:40 21/12/04 +1100, you wrote: Hi Folks, After becoming a little frustrated of seeing and reading the same old stuff, day in and day out, and IMHO the list not having the same useful content as previously, I have number of suggestions. With a number of other groups, a different format is used, a question is asked, replies are sent directly to the person asking the question and this person then summarises for the groups benefit. I'm not too certain about this... Are you *really* sure the *full* content will come back to the list in general? Will *everybody* quote Ray Wurlod in full? Many's the tid-bit found in Ray's responses.. grin This has couple of immediate advantages : 1) stops arguments on the relative benefits of a GOTO over a LOOP for the 53rd time. (30 replies on the last one). I'm not too sure how you (a) stop the troublemakers mentioning it, or (b) stop the anti-GOTO zealots for throwing their hats in the ring.. but zealots being zealots, they all have to respond.. We all know, even those newly-list-joined, about the ongoing stirring about GOTO's and the zealots' responses. 2) stops multiple answers clogging bandwidth of everybody on the list. eg. being told how to MAT var = '' 9 times. OK, we've had an enormous result to MAT var = '' this morning, but is that simply because it was an easy one? Many list users get their mail delivered to their desk immediately. Others have to go out to get it periodically from whereever. The immediate receivers really have no way of knowing if, as yet, anybody else has responded. I was in the process of answering this very question myself this morning - there being no apparent answers provided at that point, but a phone call disrupted the response, and by the time I got back to it about 15 to 20 minutes later, there were an easy half-dozen responses. So, I cancelled my response.I'm not too sure how you can control the time delay. An list administrator available 24/7 is probably the only way. Charles? People need to also have a little more discipline and perhaps utilise the community list when appropriate. I choose not to subscribe so am not aware if it gets much of a hammering but perhaps it could do with a little more. This format provides that discipline. I am aware there useful posts and the responses can be very helpful but we could also promote the use and searching of the archives prior to posting. Have you *really* tried finding something/anything on infocus? Most times, to me, the indexing is a bit off . This would trim down a number of the duplicate posts. I feel these simple measures would cut down considerably on duplicate and unnecessary traffic. Donning asbestos underpants now. Regards David Logan Database Administrator HP Managed Services 148 Frome Street, Adelaide 5000 Australia +61 8 8408 4273 - Work +61 417 268 665 - Mobile +61 8 8408 4259 - Fax --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.290 / Virus Database: 265.6.2 - Release Date: 20/12/04 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.290 / Virus Database: 265.6.2
RE: [U2] The list format and usefulness
Goo'day, again, David, At 15:13 21/12/04 +1100, you wrote: Hi Bruce, Do you really want the full content or do you want the answer? I don't disagree about Ray W's postings however it stops all the out of office messages along with a large number of tit for tat postings. Is filtering out the OOO's Out of Office (as I do) too hard? The tit-for-tats just get deleted without reading once I get sick of the thread of 'em If the zealots wish to continue, they can do it in private. They get deleted-without-reading, too. Then I write some more code with a few GOTOs, or GOs if I'm *really* peeved, just to make myself feel better grin The list manager used by other lists has a reply-to of the person posting the message. Personally, I'm a bit sick of the arguments. Some folks think it is funny but it ties up an inordinate amount of bandwidth. Your point about the immediate receivers is not really valid. Oh! I thought it was extremely valid, especially to those of us with lazy email . Why does everybodys reply have to go to everybody on the list? 'Cos then, them wot's wrong or under some misaprehension get told early enough by the rest of the list and *this* can then spark another conversation and *this* can be more meaningful and useful, at least to me Multiply the answers this morning by the number of subscribers times the length of each message and the bandwidth consumed becomes quite large. Is this a cost?12 emails times 700 subscribers in the time that how many zillion other emails were propagated. They can be so easily ignored, once *you* realize that *you're* finished with them I have seen recently, last week, in fact, an instance where it took a number of disparate replies to one poster before he saw the light. If nobody else on the list was able to see the responses, and couldn't keep posting additional bits 'n' pieces, Gawd alone knows where that poor bloke'd be by now. The additional bits really *do* have a value I'm not trying to control the delay, just redirect the replies to where they should go ie. the original message poster. It is then up to he/she to compose a reasonable summary and post this to the list. We then only have 2 messages to the list, the question and the answer. In a perfect world.there'd only be difficult and obtuse questions posed, and only Ray Wurlod (UV)and Ken Wallis(UD)'d be able to answer. So, list, listen up!Only ask the hard ones. grin I don't disagree with the INFOCUS indexing however the price is right and I haven't seen any offers of anything better. It is using another sites donated bandwidth (AFAIK). I'm sure gmane or something else also mirrors the list. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.290 / Virus Database: 265.6.2 - Release Date: 20/12/04 Regards, Bruce Nichol Talon Computer Services ALBURYNSW 2640 Australia http://www.taloncs.com.au Tel: +61 (0)411149636 Fax: +61 (0)260232119 If it ain't broke, fix it till it is! -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.290 / Virus Database: 265.6.2 - Release Date: 20/12/04 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.290 / Virus Database: 265.6.2 - Release Date: 20/12/04 --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] The list format and usefulness
I agree with Will on this one David. As the former host and CyberSpanker of the list, I am skeptical that these summaries would be posted. After watching the traffic for almost 10 years, I could tell you who would even post a thank you, let alone those blessed souls who would report the final answer, how it worked, and what contribution lead them to it. I could also tell which subscribers and which geographic regions were just taking from the list as a way to try to get out of paying IBM support time and would never even acknowledge the help. Many times the suggestions, while they may not be the answer, lead you into areas you never before considered. Except for the GOTO issue. On that old horse, the Delete Key is your friend. Nobody is ever going to change anyone else's mind. -- Regards, Clif ~~~ W. Clifton Oliver, CCP CLIFTON OLIVER ASSOCIATES Tel: +1 619 460 5678Web: www.oliver.com ~~~ Logan, David (SST - Adelaide) wrote: Hi Will, Yes it does, it requires discipline and also an acknowledgement by the group that we all rely on everybody else. If you don't summarise, how long will it be before nobody bothers to reply? One of the other lists I subscribe to is the sun-managers list and this works well. Everybody knows the rules and realises that everybody can learn from their own experiences. It is rare that the summary isn't posted. My own opinion is that most people do wish to help and most people learn something from that assistance. As a price to pay, a quick summary is quite cheap. Regards David Logan Database Administrator HP Managed Services 148 Frome Street, Adelaide 5000 Australia +61 8 8408 4273 - Work +61 417 268 665 - Mobile +61 8 8408 4259 - Fax -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 21 December 2004 11:50 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [U2] The list format and usefulness In a message dated 12/20/2004 7:40:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, Logan, David (SST - Adelaide) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: snip With a number of other groups, a different format is used, a question is asked, replies are sent directly to the person asking the question and this person then summarises for the groups benefit. /snip It's an excellent suggestion David, but doesn't it rely on people actually summarizing ? If they don't then the wisdom of the responders is lost in limbo isn't it? That's the one issue I'd bring up about your idea. Will Johnson Fast Forward Technologies Member of the U2UG Establishing Board --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] The list format and usefulness
Full content. A lot of times watching how someone else is thinking is more instructive than what they are thinking. For a problem, an answer is enough. To learn how to solve a class of problems, watching the process that more experienced (or even just different) techs go through is an education worth the noise on the channel. IMO. Clif Logan, David (SST - Adelaide) wrote: Do you really want the full content or do you want the answer? I don't disagree about Ray W's postings however it stops all the out of office messages along with a large number of tit for tat postings. --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] The list format and usefulness
David, What I do is subscribe to both the list and the digest. That way I can skim and delete the individual messages as they come in (from the list), still have all the content if I need it later (from the digest). To control bandwidth, I have them going to two different names, so I can opt to not pull the e-mail with the separate posts if I don't have time or speed to spare for it. As moderator I can't delete-without-reading, but you could. I know it's not the answer you proposed, but I find it a workable solution. What has me more curious is your comment about the online indexing being insufficient. What would you like to see done differently? - Chuck Info-glut Barouch Clifton Oliver wrote: Full content. A lot of times watching how someone else is thinking is more instructive than what they are thinking. For a problem, an answer is enough. To learn how to solve a class of problems, watching the process that more experienced (or even just different) techs go through is an education worth the noise on the channel. IMO. Clif -- - Charles Barouch (718) 762-3884 x 1 - Key Ally Voice Mail cbarouch - Skype (Free VoIP Phone) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Consulting services [EMAIL PROTECTED] - News [EMAIL PROTECTED] - U2-Users Moderator [EMAIL PROTECTED]- Zeus Data Integration Mount Olympus, Home of Zeus Data Integration --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
