RE: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports
When we advise clients on GUI, we always advise a divide and conquer approach. It is amazing just how small a percentage of a system actually needs to be GUItized, once you have partitioned out the business rules, report and (strange) user menus, admin facilities etc. Use a regular report designer [AD - mvQuery] to handle the reporting. Keep the admin stuff on the green screen. Turn business rules into subroutines and test then from the green screen first. Then look at what is left, and employ someone who understands GUI to create the new front end. You might be surprised how little is left to be reworked, if you use the right tools. We use uvCase, but we don't sell that outside the UK so that won't help you! But there are plenty tools around that can. soapbox moment Sticking a few text and combo boxes on a screen is not a GUI. It's a form with a few text/combo boxes. Desiging an effective GUI is a skill that takes time to learn - like any other computing skill. Do employ someone to help you do it. /soapbox moment Some lateral thinking can help too: One of my favourite demos for mvQuery involves running a Command Before to capture an existing BASIC print job. I have a simple 300 line BASIC program that executes a print job to HOLD, uses a definition record to strip data from the job by locating recognized headings/subheadings and stripping text out at relative x and y offsets, and uses that data to write a number of records into a work file. I can then use mvQuery to select the work file and design e.g. a modern looking PDF or an export. None of that is rocket science, and I can use that technique to redesign a quite number of existing reports in a matter of minutes - without having to analyze how the original report was created! You can do similar things with other tools: it's just takes a little bit of thinking around the issue. Brian This email was checked on leaving Microgen for viruses, similar malicious code and inappropriate content by MessageLabs SkyScan. DISCLAIMER This email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information. In the event of any technical difficulty with this email, please contact the sender or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microgen Information Management Solutions http://www.microgen.co.uk -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
[OT] Re: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports
Well, let's see... the new car automatically unlocks all the doors when I get in (my wife thinks the carjackers'll love that one), I have to stand on the brake pedal to get it to start, the window decides for itself to go all the way down when I just want it down a crack, and the turning radius sucks. But, hey, that's progress. It's new and improved. Anyway, ignore this as the grumblings of an old codger whose coffee hasn't overcome the arthritis yet this morning. ;^) Regards, Charlie Noah [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Change to the process flow is many times the impetus to replace a module or application in the first place. Change is not always terrible, although feared. In truth I have found the fear to be more in the hearts of the IT person who has tweaked the system over the past 15+ years and is insulted that their masterpiece is being considered a dinosaur ready for replacement. How dare they! You don't think that way when you replace your car now do you? You generally move into a newer improved model that outperforms the car you left behind. It may react a little differently, but overall the performance is better. -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: [OT] Re: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports
And it was YOU that bought it! m coffee... need more.. Les :-) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 19 April 2004 11:12 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [OT] Re: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports Well, let's see... the new car automatically unlocks all the doors when I get in (my wife thinks the carjackers'll love that one), I have to stand on the brake pedal to get it to start, the window decides for itself to go all the way down when I just want it down a crack, and the turning radius sucks. But, hey, that's progress. It's new and improved. Anyway, ignore this as the grumblings of an old codger whose coffee hasn't overcome the arthritis yet this morning. ;^) Regards, Charlie Noah [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Change to the process flow is many times the impetus to replace a module or application in the first place. Change is not always terrible, although feared. In truth I have found the fear to be more in the hearts of the IT person who has tweaked the system over the past 15+ years and is insulted that their masterpiece is being considered a dinosaur ready for replacement. How dare they! You don't think that way when you replace your car now do you? You generally move into a newer improved model that outperforms the car you left behind. It may react a little differently, but overall the performance is better. -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the addressee only. If you have received this message in error, you must not copy, distribute or disclose the contents; please notify the sender immediately and delete the message. This message is attributed to the sender and may not necessarily reflect the view of Travis Perkins plc or its subsidiaries (Travis Perkins). Agreements binding Travis Perkins may not be concluded by means of e-mail communication. E-mail transmissions are not secure and Travis Perkins accepts no responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. Whilst steps have been taken to ensure that this message is virus free, Travis Perkins accepts no liability for infection and recommends that you scan this e-mail and any attachments. Part of Travis Perkins plc. Registered Office: Lodge Way House, Lodge Way, Harlestone Road, Northampton, NN5 7UG. -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports
Which is precisely why I ALWAYS do a project with both ends of the sprectrum being in on the decision process (Management IT). What good is a system that you bring in house only to have it a technical OR Business Solution misfit? BTW...although sometime the shoe fits...but why is management ALWAYS made out to be technical morons? Why is IT ALWAYS painted out to have the one and only solution that will sustain the company into the years ahead? Face it...sometimes IT is left in the dark concerning 5-10 year plans so the technology can accomodate it, and guess what...IT becomes simply a service function when it cannot deliver insightful solutions while taking progress and yes, whimsical desires sometimes, into consideration. You become the cog in the wheel who simply balks at change, (and funny to find when complaining how clerical staff can't stand anything new) the immovable hulk with nary a fresh idea. You have to be able to play together in order have the the type of smooth interaction and discussion. The moment either IT or Management takes sides...and refuses to budge..it's dead - and THAT is usually when they bring in the dreaded outside IT Director who knows squat and tries to replicate where he came from (and with bringing along anyone from the old company they can) Management works for the Board, you work for Management..find a solution where all the people in the sandbox are happy.. -- Debster In a message dated 4/19/2004 12:51:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In truth I have found the fear to be more in the hearts of the IT person who has tweaked the system over the past 15+ years and is insulted that their masterpiece is being considered a dinosaur ready for replacement. How dare they! You don't think that way when you replace your car now do you? You generally move into a newer improved model that outperforms the car you left behind. It may react a little differently, but overall the performance is better. But Deb I fear your alternative is a pretty lemon. I don't want to trade up my Jeep with cruise control, automatic headlights and anti-lock brakes for a porsche with a stick shift do I? IT needs to be on-board with any management decisions and then at the meetings they can ask pertinent questions like Can you show us where the Audit logs are kept and can we modify that process to our needs? Can you show us how easy it is for a user to customize one of these reports you have? If I have a customer who wants 100 units allocation to them on a continuous basis, how do we set that up in your inventory system? If IT is relegated to a service function, not a decision function or worse, if a new IT manager who didn't do it that way where I came from appears than you're screwed. Excuse my French. Will -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports
Embedded responses to (hopefully) add contextual reference -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Nichol Sent: Sunday, 18 April 2004 3:20 PM To: U2 Users Discussion List Subject: Re: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports Goo'day, At 10:17 18/04/04, Will replied to: In a message dated 4/17/2004 4:16:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A key factor that makes CUI non-portable to GUI is the embedded Input and Print statements in the code. I respectfully disagree that this is key. Aren't we forgetting what Ross (and others) offer in Visage (and whatever)? AFIK, Visage offers users a GUI in a TOTAL WINDOWS LOOK AND FEEL/BROWSER environment, without having to do a total rewrite, but a rewrite none the less, re-using some portions, perhaps, of existing code. Visage seems to be more than a user interface. It's also supposedly (sorry, Ross, I've got no experience in Visage) a much less involved NEW development environment [Ross Ferris] Coming FROM an mv environment, with an existing DB design and application code, I think you are right in saying that Viságe is less involved, and simpler than people expect. As you would expect (hope?), it is ALL of the things that you DON'T HAVE TO DO that make developing in Viságe fun, and easy - whole swags of code that you don't have to write (or copy) to extract information from related files, or to correctly update all of the multi-valued items in an association (including the new dict item you added 5 minutes ago) ... they not only add up, they MULTIPLY the benefits! Other MV so-called GUI approaches, (AccuTerm and wIntegrate scripts, for example) are offering the user a GUI with an almost-modern Windows look and feel, but without the bells and whistles, and are offering a GUI by applying Band-Aids to existing code. I really don't think that's a development environment.I don't think new development is covered by this approach. If we were all developing new applications, and we could afford it, I reckon we would all jump at Visage... Or some such. [Ross Ferris] Please line up take a number :-) The key here may be can you afford NOT to use a tool like Visage ! We try spin EVERY new development request into Viságe these days from our green screen client base - 1 less program we need to convert later, we end up with a nicer look, and the customer likes what he sees so much, he is willing to fund conversion of existing screens, so the exercise is not only self funding, but profitable ! I'd hazard a guess that the cost of new development in Visage, together with the cost of Visage, would come out less (Ross??) than the cost of the same level of development to the same level of total user interface in our known MV Terminal Emulation environs. The per-user outgoing cost of a MV TE capable of supporting the TE scripts (as opposed to the cost of IE6!!) is, IMHO, the crippling factor, here. Especially in the larger sites where everybody would be forced into using the GUI-able TE instead of the lower-cost/freebie ones. [Ross Ferris] That would certainly be the case, especially when you also take into account the REDUCTION of DB licences required to support your user population ! (or for existing sites the ability to increase the effective user population, without a corresponding increase in DB licences). This is because Viságe uses web technology for data transport, and operates with a non-persistent connection model, so you are only connected to the backend database to do things like reading records, and executing server code. Our active dictionary code reduction techniques mean that you can churn out programs in record time. Most people have their first GUI screens operating in under an hour (that includes product installation - most of this time is spent setting up dictionaries!) What we're all (all of us software developers, that is) trying to do is maintain a public acceptance for our EXISTING software. Sales = Public Acceptance.Ross is out in front with Visage, right up there with Windows products, because he's been able to absorb the costs of development over a period of time, developing Visage and developing/redeveloping his applications using it as he goes. OK, he's paid more for his version of Visage but he got his version earlier than the rest of us; he and his people have far more experience with it than the rest of us; it was written for their express requirements; they know what its' capabilities are; they know its' shortcomings; they know what's planned for its' future, and he's selling licences to it to help in recovering his outlay. Most of the rest of us are looking at it, at its cost, at the cost of redeveloping using it, and going with it, or hoping that the lower initial outlay of providing TE scripts will suffice, or .. [Ross Ferris] If we WERE only developing Viságe for our needs I'd have a very happy
RE: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, 18 April 2004 10:18 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports Then some of the validation (two field interactions) should be relegated to the On.SUBMIT part of the program, etc. FWIW you do NOT want to wait until SUBMIT ! In Visage, as soon as you have all of the parts of a multi-part key validation (2 or more) the validation is performed - and of course you don't have to write ANY code for this to happen (all part of our active code reduction technology :-) Likewise if you have cascading relationships like : Pick a Country the State Box re-populates Pick a state and the Town Box re-populates Change the country the State Town boxes clear Are achieved without code . did I mention that we extended the dictionary structure, so that this sort of relationship is visible ? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 15/04/2004 -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports
In a message dated 4/18/2004 10:18:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For example, aligning this back to the original post, rather than attempting to use CR for reporting, I'd simply create a Viságe.BIT cube to give the users free-form enquiry and data exploration facilities into their UV database. In our case we have replaced 300 sales analysis reports currently provided in our R5 system with a single Sales Cube - and this is one of the facilities that makes Viságe better than AccuTerm ! Warning! Salesman quote! C'mon Ross :) A dataset that includes 50 fields and I only want to see 6 on my report. So you replace that report with a cube where I (the user) have to figure out exactly what I want to see, build the proper query statement, format statement, display statement etc and then figure out how to tell the system to remember my statement so next time I don't have to THAT all again. You replaced the 300 reports, with one huge cube where you STILL have users recreating (or trying to) their original 300 reports... Users don't want to see 50 fields, they want to see the 6 fields they've been analyzing for the past 3 years ... Will -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports
Mark, Cubes are a way of displaying data. All those 1NF is the only way people discovered that flat data makes doesn't server whole categories of users. So they invented cross-linked (usually browser viewable) report format where for example: SALES OVERHEAD 01/01/04 $1,000,000$657,823 Would be displayed and you can click on the dollar amounts to 'drill down' into the details. On that page, you should be able to drill down through a detail like 'expenses' to see the details of that value, and so on. - Charles CB3 Barouch Mark Johnson wrote: Not to be out of touch, but what is a Sales Cube. I saw Swordfish and I hope that itn't it. Thanks. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U2 Users Discussion List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 3:20 PM Subject: Re: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports In a message dated 4/18/2004 10:18:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For example, aligning this back to the original post, rather than attempting to use CR for reporting, I'd simply create a Viságe.BIT cube to give the users free-form enquiry and data exploration facilities into their UV database. In our case we have replaced 300 sales analysis reports currently provided in our R5 system with a single Sales Cube - and this is one of the facilities that makes Viságe better than AccuTerm ! Warning! Salesman quote! C'mon Ross :) A dataset that includes 50 fields and I only want to see 6 on my report. So you replace that report with a cube where I (the user) have to figure out exactly what I want to see, build the proper query statement, format statement, display statement etc and then figure out how to tell the system to remember my statement so next time I don't have to THAT all again. You replaced the 300 reports, with one huge cube where you STILL have users recreating (or trying to) their original 300 reports... Users don't want to see 50 fields, they want to see the 6 fields they've been analyzing for the past 3 years ... Will -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- Sincerely, Charles Barouch www.KeyAlly.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports
[I went on and on and then said] As an aside, pardon me for being so bold, but it's amazing that the providers of these GUI products aren't jumping to pay people like me to help developers become viable candidates for their products. There's no guarantee that any given site will adopt any given GUI product, if any, but unless there are prospects there can be no new customers. It seems to me it's worth it to someone to foster redevelopment like this. Well, that's the MV market for ya... Tony [Ross Ferris] ?? Please refer to your email of March 23rd - If things have changed I'll get the guys from ACTi to give you a call :-) My above quote doesn't mean that I necessarily want to do this sort of work. There are lots of talented people in our market who could use work and it seems a natural fit to tool providers to contract with third-parties to facilitate app migration for a host of applications. Personally, I prefer to write communications tools and do other high-end tech stuff for MV - if I never see another line of application code I'll be happy. However, there is something cool and rewarding about modularizing old code that will become the back-end to a GUI thick client, web client, Web Service or Smart Phone. I'll consider opportunities for myself and other Nebula RD associates as they present themselves, but I'm not going to gear up to provide modularization services if the MV market isn't interested. Fostering redevelopment means someone must fund projects like this, if not the VAD then perhaps tool developers who have something to gain from the efforts of the VAD. (Really OT here, more for CDP than this forum, sorry.) Tony -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports
Cube summary: In an MV implementation, a cube might be a file with a multipart key and each part of the key being a foreign key to another file. Additionally, instead of virtual fields for summing such numbers as total-sales-per-salesperson-per-quarter, the cube might actually store these sums just in case someone wants to see them then they do their online analytical processing (OLAP), for example. The most important aspects of a cube are the FACT table (that's the one with the multipart key), the DIMENSION tables (the ones the foreign keys point to) and the MEASURES (the values to be summed, counted, etc when slicing and dicing the data). RDBMS users often rehost their data in a data mart or warehouse using a star schema (the name for a fact and dimension table design) so they can report against the data. [And as an aside, PICK folks sometimes also port their data to a relational database so they can then make stars and put in an OLAP cube so they can then report against it as if it were multivalued data. We end up doing that due to a lack of standard reporting solutions other than the character-based MV query tools. That's why I promote such tools as Informer at www.entrinsik.com -- we could bypass a lot of steps if we don't buy into the relational mistakes -- couldn't resist the soapbox opportunity, sorry]. --dawn Dawn M. Wolthuis Tincat Group, Inc. www.tincat-group.com Take and give some delight today. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Johnson Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 2:49 PM To: U2 Users Discussion List Subject: Re: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports Not to be out of touch, but what is a Sales Cube. I saw Swordfish and I hope that itn't it. Thanks. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U2 Users Discussion List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 3:20 PM Subject: Re: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports In a message dated 4/18/2004 10:18:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For example, aligning this back to the original post, rather than attempting to use CR for reporting, I'd simply create a Viságe.BIT cube to give the users free-form enquiry and data exploration facilities into their UV database. In our case we have replaced 300 sales analysis reports currently provided in our R5 system with a single Sales Cube - and this is one of the facilities that makes Viságe better than AccuTerm ! Warning! Salesman quote! C'mon Ross :) A dataset that includes 50 fields and I only want to see 6 on my report. So you replace that report with a cube where I (the user) have to figure out exactly what I want to see, build the proper query statement, format statement, display statement etc and then figure out how to tell the system to remember my statement so next time I don't have to THAT all again. You replaced the 300 reports, with one huge cube where you STILL have users recreating (or trying to) their original 300 reports... Users don't want to see 50 fields, they want to see the 6 fields they've been analyzing for the past 3 years ... Will -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports
Will, Yes, we DO persist record locks, so a Visage application can happily co-exist with its green screen cohorts. I know that everyone says that this is impossible with a non-persistent application they are wrong ! Sorry, I'm not going to publish the code here :-) suffice to say that BECAUSE we have had the luxury of time to develop Viságe, we have overcome MANY problems that face this type of technology - and this isn't even the most difficult ! Many of our competitors have inherent problems with their approaches that I don't think even THEY know they have yet (sorry, I'm not going to give THEM a heads up either :-). One day they will go SPLAT, and find that they are going to have to take more than a few steps backwards (been there, done that), if not a TOTAL system re-tool 'tis the nature of the beast. As our sales spiel goes, one of the biggest advantages you get with Viságe is all of the mistakes we have made along the way. You are left with a distillate that is very pure, efficient, and potent :-) Ross Ferris Stamina Software Visage - an Evolution in Software Development -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 19 April 2004 5:22 AM To: U2 Users Discussion List Subject: Re: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports In a message dated 4/18/2004 11:23:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That would certainly be the case, especially when you also take into account the REDUCTION of DB licences required to support your user population ! (or for existing sites the ability to increase the effective user population, without a corresponding increase in DB licences). This is because Viságe uses web technology for data transport, and operates with a non-persistent connection model, so you are only connected to the backend database to do things like reading records, and executing server code. Hold on here amigo. Are you saying you do not persist record locks? You know what I mean. Explain how you do this. Will -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 15/04/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 15/04/2004 -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports
In a message dated 4/18/2004 6:08:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sorry, I'm not going to publish the code here :-) suffice to say that BECAUSE we have had the luxury of time to develop Viságe, we have overcome MANY problems that face this type of technology - and this isn't even the most difficult ! There's a big difference between publish the code and explain how you do this. So are you also not willing to explain how you do this? Will -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports
In a message dated 4/18/2004 9:46:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So YOU, as a developer, would construct a cube with the 6 key fields that the user is interested in. You also get to do things like define an opening view of the information - AND also the query that is used to generate the cube (BTW, did I mention that Visage has a drag'n'drop query facility :-) I don't think you understood me. There isn't the user and there isn't 6 key fields. There are 500 reports, some have three fields, some have twelve fields. The entire data set of reports in total utilizes 50 different numeric or date fields. So no I wouldn't create a cube with 6 fields. I would create a cube with 50 fields and create 500 views into it.. or your software would have to allow users to easily create and save their own views. The point being that it's not a magic bullet. I or they STILL have to create those 500 views ... Will -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports
When a decision is made to replace a module, or an entire application I have found it IMPOSSIBLE to get a Green Screen Ap even through the door for a demo. Business Rules are extremely important, but the wealth of GUI or GUI like applications on the market make it easy to find one that fits the bill, or very close to it. Forget about just plain GUI, browser based is more often on the hit list. Oftentimes management and users have become so ingrained in their thinking as to how the business process flow must be, that they are blind to see an alternate route to the same end result. How often have you heard that an application is to be replaced, but they want the same exact reports that they have been receiving for the past 10 years? Change to the process flow is many times the impetus to replace a module or application in the first place. Change is not always terrible, although feared. In truth I have found the fear to be more in the hearts of the IT person who has tweaked the system over the past 15+ years and is insulted that their masterpiece is being considered a dinosaur ready for replacement. How dare they! You don't think that way when you replace your car now do you? You generally move into a newer improved model that outperforms the car you left behind. It may react a little differently, but overall the performance is better. The one thing about GUI that management often overlooks is speed entry and the need for many areas of repetitious to be designed for speed and utilizing keyboard rather than mouse entry. Clerical staff on the other hand accustomed to green screen entry are often afraid that GUI MUST be slower. It all depends on the design. You can hit the bottom line by making it efficient, making it fast, eliminate keystrokes, and address the business issues. It's up to a creative techie to find the warm and fuzzy comfortable spot with whatever tools, not be afraid to spread their wings a bit to learn something new, and expand the horizons of a company by taking them to another level. Afterall, management may move ahead without the programmer who insists that green screen is where a system should stay... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 7:15 PM To: 'U2 Users Discussion List' Subject: RE: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports Tough to find a good place for these comments. There are some interesting observations to make on the mentality of IT people, business management, etc.. First, on the concept of if we're going to add a GUI we might as well get an entirely new app: The business rules and UI should be considered as entirely separate entities. Getting a new app with a GUI does not imply that you're going to get equal or better business rules. This concept is exemplified by Mark's GP client and dozens more like them. Management must be educated to separate the idea of the UI from the business rules. Second, I wince in pain at the concept of IT people looking at a Character UI and deciding it's deficient, based solely on the asthetic value. How can someone decide by the UI whether an app suits business needs? How does the simple fact that an app has a Graphical UI make it any more functional than a Character UI? What is the trigger in the mind of IT people that leads from I see a GUI to it must be capable of running our business or all we need to do is add a couple business rules to this GUI and it will work for us? I really think this GUI mentality comes in part from the video game generation where graphical games are perceived as better than the old Pong, StarTrek, Zork, Wumpus, and Adventure games (plugh or xyzzy ring any bells here?) In all of the rhetoric about separating the UI from the business rules, somewhere in the minds of IT people is the idea that a Graphical UI implies better business rules - and graphical database management tools somehow imply a more sophisticated database. So while people sing the praises of Object Orientation and n-tier architectures, in the big picture they still don't really get it. Third, and all of this is really related, what confuses me about all of these failed migrations is that intelligent professionals keep missing obvious factors of migration, like feature comparisions, business needs assessments, training, and documentation. And why do we seldom see basic auditing to identify problems and keep a project on track - or to put a halt to migration when critical (and I really mean critical) issues are identified? In every one of these failed migrations there is one or more persons in management pushing forward with some underlying business agenda, no one wants to openly state that the plans aren't sound, the systems aren't ready, or that the whole idea is foolhardy - and somehow hundreds of thousands of dollars get thrown into projects like this with no one in IT to pull in the reins and say enough is enough, this is FUBAR
Re: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports
Yeah. Then I'd be accused of shooting the baby with a wet silver bullet. Seriously folks, this is a good discussion, but it getting a bit off topic at times. I would suggest doing what Ross did a few posts ago. Rather than go into a long discussion about is a star schema a cube or a representation of an n-dimensional super-duper-hyper-pterodactyl cube, post some links to areas where those interested in the not-necessarily-U2 topic can find further info. And to ALL the vendors, please remember that if you mention your product in the post, you really ought to put [AD] in the subject line. Now, would anyone care to post any experiences on performance of implementing a star schema in a set of normalized U2 files and doing drill down and roll up strictly with LIST, SORT, and its options? Post numbers, not guesses. -- Regards, Clif On Apr 18, 2004, at 21:52, Ross Ferris wrote: You are right - there are no silver bullets, you don't throw the baby out with the bath water [I will not go into the sordid history of this one], and some degree of effort is required to embrace anything that is new [and I'll exit the thread there before I get spanked by Clif :-] -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports
In a message dated 4/17/2004 9:10:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The tools are there to produce applications on par with anything on the market. Web interfaces via tools like Redback. UOJ, .Net PDP, or the java interfaces are all there to produce great solutions for U2. And I would like to mention Accuterm. I have built several scripts in Accuterm that do Gui like functions, and are launced from inside the mv Code. Accuterm has the ability to watch for a command that is directed at it and then take actions in Windoze. So for example, one client, has an application where they have to pull up a record in an mv screen and then listen to a person speaking (off a MP3 file) and then process the record based on that speech. So my solution was to write an accuterm script that launches Windows Media Player to the location specified from the mv code. Another script launches web requests from inside mv code, scraps the contents, and presents partial information within an mv application. All in basically a green-screen format, inside an Accuterm window. But I digress. My main point was, that the tools are here. Are you ready to learn how to use them? That's the sticking point. Will Johnson Fast Forward Technologies -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports
In a message dated 4/17/2004 4:16:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A key factor that makes CUI non-portable to GUI is the embedded Input and Print statements in the code. I respectfully disagree that this is key. After all event oriented apps also have input statements I think you mean the key factor is that the programs are not event oriented. That is, on a typical GUI form I can click and fill in any field in any order, and then I submit the entire form. In a typical mv app, most programmers would write it so the inputs happen in a definite order and there is no way to change that order, on the fly. If programs were rewriten so that the inputs were all seperated from each other logically, and could be entered in any order. (Tab forward, tab back between fields, or point and click since mouse clicks are captured by accuterm and wintegrate among others). Then some of the validation (two field interactions) should be relegated to the On.SUBMIT part of the program, etc. If we could code in this fashion, then any app can be GUIized with less effort. Will -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports
I think the point Tony was making was the splitting of the program logic from the actual screen formatting. One of the most arduous tasks in converting to a GUI is the splitting of the screen layout (print statements) from the business logic in programs. If your programs have the somewhat typical [EMAIL PROTECTED] SOMETHING WITH INPUT format, the PRINT@ part has to be removed as it will be replaced by the GUI. Applications that have some type of screen processor are way ahead of the game. In that scenario, your code is mostly logic and much easier to link a GUI. You do bring up a valid point regarding event driven apps with the concept of submitting an entire form. IMO, that depends on the platform and design choices made by the developer. For example, using Redback with ASP or ASP. Net, you can pretty much mimic the field by field validations and processing of CUI programs (one of the greatest features of .Net is the auto postback). Of course there are performance considerations/penalties for doing it but you can do it. On the flip side, you could also take all the input and submit it to a server process once. More efficient but trade-offs in functionality. Mike R. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 8:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports In a message dated 4/17/2004 4:16:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A key factor that makes CUI non-portable to GUI is the embedded Input and Print statements in the code. I respectfully disagree that this is key. After all event oriented apps also have input statements I think you mean the key factor is that the programs are not event oriented. That is, on a typical GUI form I can click and fill in any field in any order, and then I submit the entire form. In a typical mv app, most programmers would write it so the inputs happen in a definite order and there is no way to change that order, on the fly. If programs were rewriten so that the inputs were all seperated from each other logically, and could be entered in any order. (Tab forward, tab back between fields, or point and click since mouse clicks are captured by accuterm and wintegrate among others). Then some of the validation (two field interactions) should be relegated to the On.SUBMIT part of the program, etc. If we could code in this fashion, then any app can be GUIized with less effort. Will -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports
Will wrote: A key factor that makes CUI non-portable to GUI is the embedded Input and Print statements in the code. I respectfully disagree that this is key. After all event oriented apps also have input statements I think you mean the key factor is that the programs are not event oriented. Mike Randall said: I think the point Tony was making was the splitting of the program logic from the actual screen formatting. ... You do bring up a valid point regarding event driven apps with the concept of submitting an entire form. You're both right. Note that my quote was _A_ key factor, not _The_ key factor. In my mind I assume that event orientation is possible once code is modularized, Input statements are replaced with passed-in values, and Print statements are replaced with returned messages and status data. You can have event oriented code with Print/Input statements, which isn't desirable, at least in MV code destined for a GUI. You can also have monolithic procedural code without the Print/Input statements, which could be the case with screen-at-a-time (3270 style) code. The bottom line is that a fundamental shift needs to be made in most MV code before it can be moved to GUI. Contrary to popular belief this shift doesn't need to be made all at once. I have a VAR/client with a 20 year old app that is being refitted over time to be more modular. They started their conscious shift about a year ago and they're now finding all sorts of benefits to modularization. They're now at a point where they can start looking at various GUI-enablement products in our market space. As an aside, pardon me for being so bold, but it's amazing that the providers of these GUI products aren't jumping to pay people like me to help developers become viable candidates for their products. There's no guarantee that any given site will adopt any given GUI product, if any, but unless there are prospects there can be no new customers. It seems to me it's worth it to someone to foster redevelopment like this. Well, that's the MV market for ya... Tony -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: GUI from Mv code Re: Crystal Reports
In a message dated 4/17/2004 10:21:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: AFIK, Visage offers users a GUI in a TOTAL WINDOWS LOOK AND FEEL/BROWSER environment, without having to do a total rewrite, but a rewrite none the less, re-using some portions, perhaps, of existing code. Visage seems to be more than a user interface. It's also supposedly (sorry, Ross, I've got no experience in Visage) a much less involved NEW development environment Other MV so-called GUI approaches, (AccuTerm and wIntegrate scripts, for example) are offering the user a GUI with an almost-modern Windows look and feel, but without the bells and whistles, and are offering a GUI by applying Band-Aids to existing code. I really don't think that's a development environment.I don't think new development is covered by this approach. What? How exactly do you get this? A script is not an almost modern Windows look and feel... it is the look and feel. The script calls windows exectuables underneath it, thats how it works. If a programmer chooses not to utilize all the various objects and methods etc that Accuterm reveals, thats their own choice, not the fault of the product. I'm not sure exactly how Visage is that much better than Accuterm in that regard. Are you? Will -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
