1. When do you think the time will come for the change? How about when a law is
passed requiring the use of the correct characters in public institutions? Well
this law exists since May 2006
http://www.legi-internet.ro/index.php/LEGE_nr_183_din_16_mai_2006_p/242/0/
Is the ignorance of some
I think in real life de-facto standards are more important than laws or
official standards but also think it would be better to have commas
instead of cedilla sooner rather than later.
We need to know what the costs are at this moment. What does the 'ignorance of
some of the XP users' actually
Thanks for your comments Mișu. Here are my thoughts with regards to
the points you raised.
1. I personally have a hard time reconciling the idea that in order to
get Linux fixed, we have to wait for Windows Vista to gain significant
market share. I might find this easier to understand if
The existing xkeyboard-config layout follows the standard to the letter.
As Cristi Secară said it already, the SR 13392:2004 doesn't force you to
set one of the supported layouts as primary and the other one as
secondary. There is nothing against the law either in the Romanian
xkeyboard-config
I agree that we are discussing two separate problems here. We should
split the conversation in two separate bugs.
1. It's true that we don't know what the ignorance of some Windows XP users
covers, but that doesn't change the fact that it's only ignorance. We can't
make decisions based on that.
Ok, then please close this bug, it is misleading, there are no
incorrect characters in the Romanian keyboard layout. Better open one
for changing the default layout in the Romanian xkeyboard-config file to
the existing academic layout. But this should rather happen upstream,
in the
I think you misread my last comment.
I think the bug is valid and the bug reporter is correct: the default Romanian
keyboard layout has incorrect characters. When a user chooses a Romanian layout
he expects it to produce correct characters. It isn't stated anywhere that the
layout works
I hope simple sentences will help a bit:
1) There are no incorrect characters in the RO layout in xkeyboard-
config. If you do not care why most texts in Romanian are written with
sceddilla and tcedilla, that's another issue. The RO implementation
fully implements the existing standard and may be
Unless anyone has any major objections, I plan on changing the title and
description to something that specifically relates to the keyboard
options in the Ubuntu UI, or lack thereof. Either that, or close the
bug and raise one that more accurately describes the problem?
This will allow separate
Mișu, I know most texts in Romanian are written with cedillas but I fail
to see how that makes the cedilla characters less incorrect. I don't
understand what you are saying. Are the characters correct because they
are widely used?
ctomer, I think you should add default to the title and change the
On Wed, 08 Aug 2007 15:06:47 -, Mişu Moldovan wrote:
3) The default layout in the Romanian xkeyboard-config file will
change when most people will be able to *read* the commabelow
diacritics. I won't call them clueless or ignorant or whatever.
ETA: 6 to 18 months.
How long it will take
Dear Mihai, in theory there is no difference between theory and
practice. But, in practice, there is... Reductio ad absurdum: let's
suppose there are some incorrect characters in the RO xkeyboard-config
file, can you please take a look at it and show us how to correct them?
I suppose not, we were
Dear Mișu, we were only talking about changing the default layout.
In practice, some users will never be able to read the comma characters
(Windows XP).
In practice, some users will always need to write using the cedilla characters
for reasons of compatibility with legacy software. That is the
Mișu, we all agree the xkeyboard-config files have all the ro layouts
there and setxkbmap can be used to choose any of them. (they may not
have all the diacritics for minorities as required by the law, I am not
sure)
We need those exposed in the GUI as well so anyone can choose them,
that's why
having just seen what ș and ț are rendered in XP I tend to agree it is not a
100% good idea to use those by default :(
still, if those correct characters are not getting used the situation will
persist indefinitely.
** Summary changed:
- Romanian keyboard layout has incorrect characters
+
The bug is not a bug, it's a feature, the Romanian layout works as
intended. The behaviour in xkeyboard-config will change when the time
will come, see below for details. Unfortunately there are two different
problems discussed in this bug:
1) should the diacritics in the default layout be
After reading Mihai and Criti's comments I understant this better and I
also think that the preferences UI should only show the comma variants
instead of the cedilla ones.
So
Romanian Standard (called academic in xkb)
Romanian Programmers (called comma in xkb)
Romanian Legacy(?) (Called
Jani, I'm glad you agree with us on the necessity of using commas. However, I
disagree in regards to the default layout.
Romanian keyboards are indeed in minority right now, but I'm convinced the
situation will change. After all, the standard was published in 2004 and
Windows started using it
Mihai, I have no strong opinion on this.
But we shouldn't equate the choice between std and programmer layout
with the choice of primarily pleasing programmers or 'regular human
beings' ;) Most non-techies still have us keyboards.
I think the idea is to annoy as few users with each release.
--
On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 12:58:13 -, Jani Monoses wrote:
Romanian Standard (called academic in xkb)
Romanian Programmers (called comma in xkb)
Romanian Legacy(?) (Called winkeys in xkb)
Please ask Mişu Moldovan for more info about the academic name. I
remember there was an issue with
I agree with Mihai that the default should be Romanian Standard. I don't see
good reason to deviate from the established standard. On the contrary, that
fact that there is a standard should make the decision even easier.
However, I do see good reasons for not making Romanian Programmers the
Since I have never used the ro keyboard layout (except now in connection with
this discussion) I'll leave it to others to decide.
But there is a difference between seasoned users who have set up and used a ro
layout in the past on a US keyboard and those
who are new to computers and their
so which would be the preferred romanian layout by default? comma or
academic?
--
Romanian keyboard layout has incorrect characters
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/108057
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is the bug contact for Ubuntu.
--
Academic.
It is the primary layout in the Romanian standard SR 13392:2004 and it matches
the key labels on Romanian keyboards.
** Description changed:
Description of problem:
The Romanian letters Ș and Ț are incorrectly represented when the Romanian
keyboard is selected. Ș and Ț are both
comma == academic
cedilla != academic
I'd say comma==academic is better. As I pointed out, Windows has updated it's
fonts to support these characters. So displaying these characters on XP, Vista,
OS X and Linux will not create problems.
More over, some of the Romanian translations in Launchpad
ro academic and ro comma are xkb layouts that should replace those
currently used, ro and ro std. See
http://diacritice.sourceforge.net/tastaturi.html for more details.
--
Romanian keyboard layout has incorrect characters
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/108057
You received this bug notification
Lucian:
comma != academic
I am talking about the layouts. Both of these provide the comma t and s instead
of the cedilla ones.
I agree the correct characters need to be generated, but not sure which of
these two keyboard layouts to make the default.
MihaI:
while it may match romanian
right now there's std and winkeys
we definitely should add comma and academic to the list
should we remove any of the existing ones?
--
Romanian keyboard layout has incorrect characters
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/108057
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
We should remove the layouts with cedillas from the graphical configuration
utilities. Advanced users that want to use those layouts can set them using
setxkbmap. This is the situation now, only reversed, the comma layouts are
hidden.
Regarding academic vs. comma, I strongly believe we should
** Description changed:
Description of problem:
The Romanian letters Ș and Ț are incorrectly represented when the Romanian
keyboard is selected. Ș and Ț are both incorrectly represented using cedillas
instead of commas.
- The incorrect Unicode characters are Ş - U015E (S with a cedilla),
Maybe some further info might help:
- the Linguistic Institute of the Romanian Academy only defines a comma unde s
and t, so this is the way to go for any new project; cedilla unde s and t
simply does not exists, officially speaking
- the cedilla under s and t is there only beacuse back in 1987
Cristi,
from your comment it is not clear to me whether you think it's better
for Ubuntu to swicth to commas by default or not.
--
Romanian keyboard layout has incorrect characters
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/108057
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs,
Microsoft has released patches for some of it's fonts
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=0ec6f335-c3de-44c5-a13d-a1e7cea5ddeaDisplayLang=en
so XP should be covered for those with genuine windows boxes that can do WGA
updates.
See this for comments on the pack:
** Description changed:
Description of problem:
The Romanian letters Ş and Ţ are incorrectly represented when the Romanian
keyboard is selected. Ş and Ţ are both incorrectly represented using cedillas
instead of commas.
The incorrect Unicode characters are U015E (S with a cedilla),
** Description changed:
Description of problem:
- The Romanian letters Ş and Ţ are incorrectly represented when the Romanian
keyboard is selected. Ş and Ţ are both incorrectly represented using cedillas
instead of commas.
- The incorrect Unicode characters are U015E (S with a cedilla),
The reason for using cedillas in the page explaining why the cedilla is
wrong, is because the correct glyphs are missing from Windows systems
prior to Vista version.
Unlike Firefox or Opera, Internet Explorer up to version 6 is unable to
make substitution for missing glyphs, so in order for a
It's true that the cedilla versions are used a lot. But that doesn't make it
right.
As a fix, I switched my layout from ro std to ro academic. The only
difference is that the cedilla is replaced with the comma.
This is the correct layout (used by both Windows Vista and MacOS X) and it
should be
For a web page explaining why the cedilla is wrong,
http://www.secarica.ro/html/s-uri_si_t-uri.html sure uses cedilla a lot
in the text body. Talk about mixed messages. In fact, the only
instances of the comma I could find in a quick browse-through were in
the last paragraph about MacOS, which
** Description changed:
Description of problem:
- The Romanian letters Ş and Ţ are incorrectly represented when the Romanian
keyboard is selected. Ş and Ţ are both incorrectly represent using cedillas
instead of commas.
+ The Romanian letters Ş and Ţ are incorrectly represented when the
Confirming the bug. Should be an easy fix somewhere in the keyboard
layouts settings files.
--
Romanian keyboard layout has incorrect characters
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/108057
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is the bug contact for Ubuntu.
** Description changed:
Description of problem:
The Romanian letters Ş and Ţ are incorrectly represented when the Romanian
keyboard is selected. Ş and Ţ are both incorrectly represent using cedillas
instead of commas.
The incorrect Unicode characters are U015E (S with a cedilla), U015F
** Changed in: xkeyboard-config (Ubuntu)
Sourcepackagename: None = xkeyboard-config
** Changed in: xkeyboard-config (Ubuntu)
Target: None = ubuntu-7.10
--
Romanian keyboard layout has incorrect characters
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/108057
You received this bug notification because
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