I followed MPCs instructions on a eee 901 with an intel 945.
It was a complete disaster, it did not fix a thing. FPS seemed slightly
higher (600-700 instead of 500-600), but there were the same rendering
errors when moving the glxgears window around.
I lost array.org's wired and wireless
It looks like you've never rebuild a personal kernel, all the modules
must be rebuilt too ( like the Wifi driver, hotkeys driver etc... ) .
For the keyboard problem, I too have this issue but I've solved it by
redefining my keyboard layout, and Tormond says it will be fixed in the
1.6 beta
Biji, you must also install the xserver-xorg-core, xserver-xorg-input-
synaptics ( downgrade it ), xserver-xorg-input-evdev ( upgrade it ),
xserver-xorg-video-intel and the libdrm2/mesa related packages, because
the kernel alone will not change anything .
--
Poor graphics performance and
If it isn't too much trouble, could anyone please post the commands to
perform this steps? I also tried and got no results, probably also done
things wrong.
Thanks,
Effenberg
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
8.10
Without GEM : 400~500 FPS .
With GEM activated :
4480 frames in 5.0 seconds = 895.932 FPS
4488 frames in 5.0 seconds = 897.557 FPS
4489 frames in 5.0 seconds = 897.731 FPS
+ No X crashes
:'-)
The packages are unstable ( I have some incompatibility issues but no
crashes ^^ ), but hey ! The
I believe some users have reported frame rates in the 1300 to 1500 fps
range on Hardy. I forget where I read that. So, 950-1000 fps should be
readily achievable.
That said, this discussion should really not be taking place in a bug
report. Tormod has been kind enough to set up a forum topic on
Whoops. Im sorry, it wasn't Tormond's forum. It was Phoronix's. I
apologize for any inconvenience.
Hans
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Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
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You received this bug notification because you are a member of
I also have poor graphics performance ( only around 600 FPS with
glxgears ) ...
I've tried the version 2.6.28-rc7 of the Linux Kernel ( using
KernelCheck ), then I've updated the xorg server and the drivers from
the xorg-edgers repository, I've rebooted the PC and ... the touchpad
and the
I've compile 2.6.8-rc7 and.. still no improvement.. somebody tell me
because i915 module won't compile on 2.6.8 kernel? i'm not sure why
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
8.10
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You received this bug notification
I am in the same situation as many above: Dell Vostro 1310 with GM965
running Intrepid Ibex. It's a Core 2 Duo with 4GB of ram. The graphic
performance is clearly incoherent to the hardware capabilities.
On Hardy, the performance was good, no slow scrolling issues and a (at
least) 2 times higher
Effenberg, please re-read last several comments - it's possible to get ~
the same performance as it was in Hardy by upgrading kernel to 2.6.28-2
version from jaunty repository, MESA related packages and xserver-xorg-
video-intel 2.4.97 version (it's important) from xorg-edgers.
In my case it help
I have installed linux kernel 2.28.2 but I have serious problems with
depencies and wireless driver..I can't load ndiswrapper modules..But i
have noted an increment of performance in glxgears,about 700fps.Only
problem is wireless.
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965
I've GM945 GPU
1)
Hardy heron
kernel 2.6.28rc4,
xorg/mesa/intel current master branches
xorg.conf: exa, tiling=on
glxgears ~1100FPS
tiling=off
glxgears ~800
changing exa to uxa
glxgears = 400
in all cases scrolling when compositing is damn slow (unusable)
2)
Fedora 10 live
glxgears =
Using kernel 2.6.28rc6 and new drivers mesa 7.3 from xorg edgers of
jaunty (https://launchpad.net/~xorg-edgers/+archive) glxgears reports
around 1100 FPS. (intrepid just 600)
1)I compiled kernel using kernelcheck utility (http://kcheck.sourceforge.net/)
2) Add xorg edgers repository
deb
Did you test it over a jaunty or ibex?
If you did it on an jaunty, can it be tested on ibex?
(I mean, you are recompliling the kernel anyway, can't the 2.6.28rc6 be
compiled on Ibex?)
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
8.10
I'm using ubuntu intrepid 8.10. Only the xorg drivers are from a jaunty
repository. The kernel was compiled in 8.10 using kernelcheck
utility.(It is easy. The tool downloads sources and generates deb files)
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
8.10
1029.463 fps !!! Thanks ART!!!
This is great, to get the ~1k fps again with intel 965GM and Ubuntu
Intrepid:
1. I installed kernel 2.6.28rc6.
2. I added the following line to /etc/apt/sources.list:
deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/xorg-edgers/ubuntu intrepid main
3. Update some packages (e.g.
Great news!
One thing. I am not using an Ubuntu stock kernel but Array.org provided
one for and eee 901.
Does kcheck build a kernel from the configuration of the kernel you have (like
array.org in my case)?
or does it do it from well-known distro kernel templates?
(Anyway I am giving it a try
I've tested your resolution in a Jaunty 9.04, with kernel
2.6.28-2-ub-generic in Jaunty repo (It's based on 2.6.28rc6, so I don't
think necessary to compile a 2.6.28rc6 myself)
After install mesa and drm-snapshot in the xorg-edgers repo, I got a higher
FPS, ~900. But after reboot, I cann't get
wow... doubled performance..
but i'm afraid to try.. i'm using intrepid 64bit any tips guys?
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Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
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Bugs,
MPC's method works for me. I am currently running 64-bit Intrepid with a
custom kernel ( 2.6.28-rc7 ). I only wish that I had found out about
this method before spending hours of frustration compiling and testing
things trying to find something that worked atleast halfway decently.
Besides the
JoseLVG: I suppose that kernelcheck use well-known distro kernel
templates.
Biji: xorg edgers provides also 64 bit packages.
Instead of building the kernel it is possible to install kernel from
jaunty and also works.
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system,
I also managed to fix the performance (from 600fps to 1000fps with a
GM45) as well as frequent crashes (consistently with etracer for
instance). This is on an intrepid amd64 system.
1. install a 2.6.28 kernel (I got the current one from jaunty).
2. from the xorg-edgers ppa, install the mesa an
How do you install the 2.6.28 series kernel on ibex?
Is there a repository or just download a vanilla kernel from kernel.org?
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
8.10
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/252094
You received this bug notification because
Please let us not make this bug report into a discussion forum. I have
opened a thread here
http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14235 where I answer
some of the above questions.
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
8.10
And like wise, there are a short thread at
http://www.aspireoneuser.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28t=5886
Regards,
Hans
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You received this bug notification because you are a
I have installed Fedora, reporting this for comparison purposes (I
intend to reinstall Ubuntu when this bug is fixed!)
1) Performance in 3d games is far better -- 50fps in bzflag with all
options turned on, as opposed to 15-20 at lower quality settings in
Intrepid.
But!
2) Some users report
It is interesting that all people here are reporting all the same again
and again altough everything was said.
Fedora 10 is based on unstable GEM patches and intel driver (and
probably master branches of mesa/xorg) . GEM is too new and it takes
some time that intel stabilize it and do all
Great disappointment with Fedora 10 live:
- FPS of glxgears are just about the same or worse than in Ubuntu 8.10 (around
350)
- Couldn't test googleearth because and permission error.
- Rendering errors when compiz is On.
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system,
Great disappointment with Fedora 10 live:
- FPS of glxgears are just about the same or worse than in Ubuntu 8.10 (around
350)
- Couldn't test googleearth because and permission error.
- Rendering errors when compiz is On.
All this on a eee 901 (VGA Intel 945)
--
Poor graphics performance and
To Paolo Fidalgo:
Can you confirm your FPS and whether in Fedora 10 you have the rendering
problems (or not) shown in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT8x_PGRolU
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
8.10
Quote:
If someone can recompile the intel driver sources used in Hardy, to make it
work under intrepid, maybe we can get better results ?
I think on a other way. why we are not trying to use the vesa-mode?
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
8.10
i try the vesa-mode: it works much better like the unstable intel-driver.
the frames are lower but the window's are not longer ugly and confused.
i load the xorg.conf.failsafe in the x11 folder.
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
8.10
Paulo wrote: I've tried Fedora 10, and I don't have this bug.
Confirmed; glxgears on Fedora 10 liveusb gives 1250-1300.
(Intrepid: 300-350 fps.)
Machine details: Dell E6500 with GM45/4500MHD.
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
8.10
Quote:
i try the vesa-mode: it works much better like the unstable intel-driver.
the frames are lower but the window's are not longer ugly and confused.
i load the xorg.conf.failsafe in the x11 folder.
This is interesting. How exactly do you force it to use the vesa driver
ranther than the
Thanks for the Fedora 10 FPS info.
I'll start to research eeedora 10 (as I am a eee 901 user) and the ubuntu
guys don't seem to care a lot a bout this bug.
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
8.10
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/252094
You received
Most likely it's because Fedora backported GEM and TTM to their kernel
for their ATI and Intel drivers.
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
8.10
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A new version of intel driver is just into the repo, (only for jaunty, I
think)
xserver-xorg-video-intel (2:2.5.1-1ubuntu2) jaunty; urgency=low
* Drop 128_stolen_memory_counting_g4x.patch (already upstream)
* Refresh and re-enable 111_textured_video_option.patch
I will test it, no big hope.
Sorry, I meant GEM and KMS. Also, it's disappointing that GEM only
restores performance (measured by glxgears) to their original values
before. I had hoped for ~50% increase in perf to match Intel's Windows
driver. Maybe the new hardware just isn't optimized yet.
--
Poor graphics performance and
I'm using the 2.6.28 kernel in jaunty repo and 2.5.1 driver, still have the
problem.
I think GEM should already be in the 2.6.28 kernel.
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Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
8.10
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/252094
You received this bug
Quote:
Section Device
Identifier Configured Video Device
Driver vesa
EndSection
Section Monitor
Identifier Configured Monitor
EndSection
Section Screen
Identifier Default Screen
Monitor Configured Monitor
Device
Correct me if I am wrong but...
Can you do GoogleEarth, Compiz, glxgears, or any 3D in general with the VESA
mode?
I think you can't, so giving up 3D acceleration because of a crapy driver is
not the solution (not for me at least)
I prefer to have compiz more or less working and low glxgears
I've tried Fedora 10, and I don't have this bug.
Here is the list of the packages:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/collections/id/19
I will try to get and compile newer versions of libdrm, xorg, and if
needed the kernel, as soon as I can, but right now I'm too busy.
--
Poor graphics
I also tested in a Fedora 10 live-usb. FPS is around 1100, much higher than
in Ubuntu jaunty ( 350 FPS ).
2008/12/2 JoseLVG [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To Paolo Fidalgo:
Can you confirm your FPS and whether in Fedora 10 you have the rendering
problems (or not) shown in this video:
I have the very same problem with another intel chipset, so I don't
think I should start another bug on launchpad.
sudo lshw -C display
*-display:0 UNCLAIMED
description: VGA compatible controller
product: Mobile 4 Series Chipset Integrated Graphics Controller
vendor:
I think the performance regression of intel driver is due to the lost of
the 'INTEL_BATCH' variable.
This variable can be set in Hardy to get a huge performance boost in 3D (can be
seen in glxgears, but also openarena, compizeffects...)
for example in Hardy, compare the output of :
glxgears
and
This is great!
Pre-Hardy (TTM?) 1500FPS
Ibex 500FPS (-1000FPS)
Jaunty 350FPS (-150FPS)
Great progression!!!
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
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Just adding that TTM was never used as a memory manager pre-hardy. Other
than that, we are in the middle of migrating the intel driver to the GEM
stack. However, it seems that non-GEM performance has taken a *huge*
hit. 2.5.1 in jaunty has poor glxgears (350 fps) and poor openarena
(1-3fps)
This bug seems to affect also intel 945 chipset. On a aspire one I had a drop
from around 1000fps in hardy to 300-400 in Intrepid. Adding the tunning below
to /etc/rc.local allowed to get some fps back, up to 630 on average. But on a
netbook, every lost fps can be seen to affect overall
I've upgraded my system to the development branch jaunty.
Here's the version:
kernel: 2.6.28-1-ub-generic
libdrm2: 2.4.1-0ubuntu6
libdrm-intel1: 2.4.1-0ubuntu6
mesa: 7.2-1ubuntu2
xserver-xorg-video-intel: 2.5.1-1ubuntu1
I'm using a 965 chipset, and the performance is still poor.
1537 frames
I have a poor 3D performance and problems with rendering when using
Compiz:
GLGears with Compiz and render problems:
1680 frames in 5.0 seconds = 335.990 FPS
1704 frames in 5.0 seconds = 340.622 FPS
1699 frames in 5.0 seconds = 339.754 FPS
1705 frames in 5.0 seconds = 340.839 FPS
1681 frames in
Kernel 2.6.28 is not stable yet in kernel.org:
http://www.kernel.org/
And I guess that Ubuntu 8.10 wiill only come with 2.6.27 kernels packages.
To test GEM I presume that one should compile some 2.6.28 on his/her own and
try it out. This is quite time consuming, specially guessing the correct
The funny thing about this bug is that, at the end of the day, you are
better off using closed-source drivers from the 'evil' guys at NVidia
that with the open sourced intel ones.
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
8.10
I did decision to buy laptop with Intel card since I thought it's most
supported by linux. Definitely it was wrong decision.
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
8.10
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You received this bug notification because you
can we stick to discussion to the bug itself please.
--
Baptiste Mille-Mathias
Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés
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Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
8.10
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Has anybody been able to test a GEM based intel driver? (I guess upgrading to a
2.6.28 kernel)
If so, how good is its performance?
Does it solve all the problems described here?
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
8.10
has 2.6.28 released yet??
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Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
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the XAA acceleration workaround just partially fixes that issue on dell
inspirion 1525.
With XAA:
+ no rendering glitches when starting new program (firefox, thunderbird, etc)
* OpenGL rendering still has problems (when moving glxgears window), but they
were on Hardy as well
- rendering issues
If the performance drop is due to the TTM/GEM migration then It seems
that there is NO solution to this for Intrepid as far as I could read on
the net.
(If someone has more information, please let us all know)
The GEM bits are going to the 2.6.28 kernel NOW, and they will be stable
when that
What I know is that TTM in intel was never in stable branch and it was
unsupported and experimental.
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My problem of little video refresh is caused by kde4,because now I use
gnome and glxgears gives always 560 Fps.Bad problem!
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Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
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glxgears does not depends on window manager. Maybe in gnome you dont use
composite (3d desktop).
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in gnome I use composite and it works good.
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i have a problem with my x3100 in kubuntu 8.10..If I do glxgears,this is the
output:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ glxgears
2550 frames in 5.0 seconds = 509.941 FPS
2482 frames in 5.0 seconds = 496.389 FPS
2671 frames in 5.0 seconds = 534.080 FPS
2329 frames in 5.0 seconds = 465.751 FPS
2616 frames in 5.0
It ist normal that glxgears displays the FPS every 5 seconds.
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There are GEM-enabled packages for ubuntu here:
http://people.ubuntu.com/~bryce/Testing/Gem/
The problem is that they are a little old (12 aug) so there is no intel
video 2.5.
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Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
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@jan
I have video block,that is when i watch a film i see graphic blocks..
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I have the same xorg.conf as the designer does.
Section Device
Identifier Configured Video Device
EndSection
Section Monitor
Identifier Configured Monitor
EndSection
Section Screen
Identifier Default Screen
Monitor Configured Monitor
I have too this issue with x3100 on my laptop toshiba l40-14D. I used
ubuntu 8.10 and have low poor perfomance in glxgears (about 350). They
may be bug with using acceleration of graphic card. In ubuntu 8.04 it is
OK (glxgears about 800).
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on
Recent Intel driver and the latest xorg (not yet released) and 2.6.28
kernel has new memory management GEM which address slow performance for
intel graphics. It is not bug in ubuntu 8.04 and 8.10.
7.xx ubuntu is fast because there were intel driver with TTM memory
management which was droped by
@Festr:
What about the rendering errors? Does this mean that the memory
management is faulty at the moment? Will this be corrected with GEM,
Linux 2.6.28 and the latest Xorg and Intel drivers?
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
8.10
Hi Festr,
Thanks for the input. But I am not sure what I am suffering is due to memory
management, since everything was working fine for me (configuration posted
above, lenovo 3000 v100) with hardy (8.04)...
Things started going wrong with the 3D acceleration only after Intrepid update.
Also
Thats what I was thinking but am not sure. I've attached my Xorg.0.log.
Either way, as you can see in the screencast, I have the same issues as
a lot of other people.
** Attachment added: Xorg.0.log
http://launchpadlibrarian.net/19787326/Xorg.0.log
--
Poor graphics performance and
ybg is using the intel driver:
(II) LoadModule: intel
(II) Loading /usr/lib/xorg/modules/drivers//intel_drv.so
(II) Module intel: vendor=X.Org Foundation
compiled for 1.5.2, module version = 2.4.1
Module class: X.Org Video Driver
ABI class: X.Org Video Driver, version 4.1
Thanks. I was pretty sure I was using the Intel driver since i was able
to turn compiz on.
Is there a way to get a screen capture of the boot process other than
recording w/ my camera?
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
8.10
I grabbed a vid w/ my camera and uploaded it. It should be available
shortly.
The video shows exactly what happens when I try to start Ubuntu using
the normal Kernel. The screen flashes all crazy, and then just sits
there. I have to boot using Recovery Mode to get into a working X.
I tested with glxgears on an Eee PC 901 with GMA 950, INTEL_BATCH was enabled
on both systems:
Gutsy Gibbon: 950 FPS
Intrepid Ibex: 500 FPS
I can confirm that the frame rate goes up in Intrepid Ibex (Gutsy Gibbon
untested) when glxgears is behind another window or minimized.
--
Poor graphics
Compaq 6710b:
glxgears on Intrepid:
- about 500
glxgears on Gutsy Gibbon:
- about 1000FPS (with 1 core at about 25%)
with hidden window:
- about 15,000 FPS (with 1 core at about 100%)
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
8.10
this issue might be related:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sun-java6/+bug/288650
the XAA acceleration workaround fixes that issue
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Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
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You received this bug
XAA acceleration does not fixes the problem for me... I know glxgears
isn't a performance test, but with XAA enabled I only get ~30+ FPS...
and I'm still having the rendering problems (with Compiz or Metacity, it
doesn't matter).
To give you an example, I uploaded this screencast to youtube:
I have this issue on my Dell Inspiron 1525 as well. I have a few other
graphical issues w/ this Intel card as well. Marcelo above me had a
good idea about the screencast. I'm adding mine, and it shows a similar
experience.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT8x_PGRolU
Here is my lspci:
[EMAIL
ybg wrote:
I can press
ctrl-alt-backspace, and then ctrl-alt-delete to get the machine
restarted. I have to choose Recovery Mode in Grub, then choose the
Resume option. Doing it this way, X will load fine, but performance
is terrible.. but it's all I got!
This more sounds like you are not
There was a new driver upgrade today, doesn't seem to have helped at
all.
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** Tags added: glx gm45 intel intrepid
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Switched back to 7.10. The performance is back to normal... This is *much*
better...
I will wait with upgrading until this bug has been resolved
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Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
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I used to have decent performance with Google Earth (GE) on Hardy, but after
the upgrade to Intrepid I am having issues with rendering as well. Everything
seems fine, but whenever I try to run GE or World Wind Java I get this single
error message in /var/log/Xorg.0.log
(EE) intel(0): underrun
when mesa glx will be upgrade??the last upgrade is 20 september..
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The new Intel driver has some fixes.
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xorg/2008-November/040243.html
Has somebody tried it?
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Juan and the designer have already had several posts about that. No
remarkable improvement.
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I have also tried installing both the new 2.4.3 and the new 2.5.1
drivers. No change.
Machine details: Dell E6500 with GM45/4500MHD. glxgears gets 1200fps
under Hardy (livecd) and 200-300fps under Intrepid (installed).
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system,
This problem isn't of intel driver but of mesa glx 7.2 ..we must wait
for this upgrade..
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I'm suffering this problem, but installing the linux-backports-modules-
intrepid-generic package I get *some* better performance using OpenGL,
for example, with the expo effect. But I still think that general
video performance is poor, and moreover, I'm still getting the same GLX-
rendering errors
There were a new release of intel drivers.
http://www.linux-gamers.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2502
I've searched to see if there are other distros with the same problem, but
found nothing.
The Designer: How did you know the problem is in Mesa?
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Poor graphics performance and
paulo I have compiled new driver 2.5.1 but my system loads always the
2.4.2.. why?
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Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
8.10
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/252094
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Bugs, which is
I have tested in Intrepid (fully updated at this very moment) the new
2.4.3 Intel driver:
- same issues with the rendering
- the performance has improved in around 50 FPS in glxgears reaching around
1000 FPS (resolution 1400x900).
I also think the issue is in Mesa 7.2. The DRI Intel driver
I have tested in Intrepid (fully updated at this very moment) the new
2.4.3 Intel driver:
- same issues with the rendering
- the performance has improved in around 50 FPS in glxgears reaching around
1000 FPS (resolution 1400x900).
I also think the issue is in Mesa 7.2. The DRI Intel driver
juan how have you installed the new intel 2.4.3?
--
Poor graphics performance and rendering errors on Intel GM965 system, Ubuntu
8.10
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/252094
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu.
--
Paulo, I think Gentoo (and I would imagine any other distro using a
similar set of packages) also has a similar problem, although it's
phrased differently:
http://bugs.gentoo.org/237468
I'm certainly experiencing font glyphs missing in Google Earth. Also,
although it's not a good performance
Mike, I can confirm the 50 fps glxgears: just tried openSUSE 11.1 beta5
LiveCD, getting similar results.
Of course glxgears is not a good performance guide but in my case, the
relative framerate changes in glxgears are correlated to the relative
framerate changes in openarena timedemo when trying
50fps on glxgears isn't an indication of vsync enabled (maybe working
incorrectly, since usual refresh rates are more likely to be 60, 75, 85
fps)?
Do you get tearing on this 50fps setup? If not, maybe this is an
evolution... just wondering.
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 11:40 AM, Kornel Jahn [EMAIL
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