[Bug 1950692] Re: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality
I also switched to Debian on our desktops because of this and the other changes forced on Ubuntu users without easy opt-out choices, snap being the other bad example. I still have a couple of Ubuntu servers but not for long. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1950692 Title: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-advantage-tools/+bug/1950692/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 1950692] Re: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality
This bug was already closed 'opinion' once by the developers but has been reopened by the submitter. The developers asked that discussion about this decision be taken to the mailing list. A release cycle and change later, this continues to come up in discussions, but the submitter of this bug has not participated on the mailing list thread to offer any arguments; so the Server Team has asked me to comment. I have also posted my comment to the mailing list at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2022-June/042115.html but am copying it here for the record. The ubuntu-minimal metapackage defines the minimal experience that we consider to be "Ubuntu". It is possible to remove this metapackage from the system, from a packaging system / policy perspective this is permitted. However, by doing so, you are making the system "not Ubuntu" and you will not receive support for such a system from the Ubuntu community. We have always taken an opinionated view on what defines the minimal "Ubuntu". For instance: at one point in the past, upstart was our supported init system, but there were other init system packages in the archive. It was possible to install these - but only by removing the ubuntu-minimal package. Requests to relax the dependency in order to allow other init systems as an alternative were rejected, because that was not the defined Ubuntu experience. We should always be willing to reconsider the contents of our minimal install based on technical considerations. To date, however, the objections I've seen to ubuntu-advantage-tools being a required minimal package have not been technical, but rather questions of taste: specifically, some people appear to find it distasteful that a paid service from Canonical is being advertised without the ability to opt out. Firstly, users are always entitled to their opinion when it comes to questions of taste; but the Ubuntu developers are not obligated to accomodate differences of taste when it comes to the Ubuntu experience. But secondly, as I've commented before, the purpose of ubuntu-advantage-tools inclusion in ubuntu-minimal isn't to advertise commercial services; it's to ensure users are informed regarding the security status of their systems, and to provide a clean user experience for enabling the ESM service - which in some contexts is a paid service, in some contexts not - to provide the best possible security for those systems. There are two other issues that have come up in discussion around ubuntu-advantage-tools. Neither requires making the package removable in order to address, and ensuring they are addressed in the package itself improves the Ubuntu experience for all users, not just those that choose to remove this package. - https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1956115 objects about not being able to opt out of the MOTD messages. This bug report however is marked incomplete, as the behavior described does not appear to correspond to the default behavior in Ubuntu Desktop or Server. If there are problems being unable to opt out, we certainly want to address those. - ubuntu-advantage-tools is now a bit larger than it was originally, weighing in at around 2.8MB. We should always be mindful of managing the size of a minimal Ubuntu install; however I have not actually seen anyone say that they were trying to remove ubuntu-advantage-tools from their system because of the disk space used. In any case, the team is looking at bringing the size of this package back down to under 1MB. In conclusion, in the absence of any other arguments being advanced, ubuntu-advantage-tools will remain a dependency of ubuntu-minimal at this time. This is always subject to revision in light of new technical arguments that might be put forward, but explains the current state of affairs for the released Ubuntu 22.04 LTS. ** Changed in: ubuntu-advantage-tools (Ubuntu) Status: Confirmed => Opinion -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1950692 Title: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-advantage-tools/+bug/1950692/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 1950692] Re: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality
Ubuntu 22.04 LTS final is still affected. Great! Thank you! -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1950692 Title: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-advantage-tools/+bug/1950692/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 1950692] Re: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality
Still actual for the latest Ubuntu 22.04 LTS beta. ** Changed in: ubuntu-advantage-tools (Ubuntu) Status: Opinion => Confirmed ** Tags removed: hirsute -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1950692 Title: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-advantage-tools/+bug/1950692/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 1950692] Re: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality
Just to add, the file listed at https://ubuntu.com/legal/motd to combat this package's "feature" since it cannot be removed, no longer exists in Jammy, 22.04. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1950692 Title: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-advantage-tools/+bug/1950692/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 1950692] Re: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality
Just a drive-by comment, but regarding the size of the package in the old bug comment #44 it has surely grown a bit since.. the installed size is now 2.8MB, mainly caused by the apt-esm-json-hook library which itself is 2.2MB (on amd64). -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1950692 Title: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-advantage-tools/+bug/1950692/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 1950692] Re: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality
Anyone who wants this changed should participate in the thread. If nobody is prepared to make the case there, then this change is unlikely to happen. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1950692 Title: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-advantage-tools/+bug/1950692/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 1950692] Re: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality
Ah - Lucas did already start an ML thread here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2021-November/041688.html -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1950692 Title: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-advantage-tools/+bug/1950692/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 1950692] Re: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality
Previous discussion here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-advantage- tools/+bug/1686183/comments/44 However I agree with Lucas. The decision has already been made, so it isn't helpful to track an "open" bug on it since there is no action to take in Ubuntu just because this bug is open. If you want to request that the decision be reconsidered, please use the mailing list as Lucas described above. In the meantime, the correct status for this bug is "Opinion". ** Changed in: ubuntu-advantage-tools (Ubuntu) Status: Confirmed => Opinion -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1950692 Title: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-advantage-tools/+bug/1950692/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 1950692] Re: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality
** Changed in: ubuntu-advantage-tools (Ubuntu) Status: Opinion => Confirmed -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1950692 Title: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-advantage-tools/+bug/1950692/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 1950692] Re: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality
I strongly agree on that all ubuntu advantage packages must be optional as the service is. This smells like marketing driven to me... -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1950692 Title: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-advantage-tools/+bug/1950692/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 1950692] Re: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality
Hi Norbert, This happens because ubuntu-advantage-tools is a package dependency of the ubuntu-minimal metapackage. Although it is possible to change that from a Depends to a Recommends, we will need to have a broader discussion about it. I suggest sending the request into this mailing list to see the broader opinion of the Ubuntu developers: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel Another thing we must take into consideration is that we need to also understand how update-manager is depending on ubuntu-advantage-tools and if we could also change the dependency there to Recommends. But that can be also better discussed in the mailing list. ** Changed in: ubuntu-advantage-tools (Ubuntu) Status: Confirmed => Opinion -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1950692 Title: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-advantage-tools/+bug/1950692/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 1950692] Re: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality
Status changed to 'Confirmed' because the bug affects multiple users. ** Changed in: ubuntu-advantage-tools (Ubuntu) Status: New => Confirmed -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1950692 Title: Ubuntu advantage tools should be removable without breakage of the core system functionality To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-advantage-tools/+bug/1950692/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
