[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
** No longer affects: null -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 Title: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/332945/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
R. Steve McKown: All except one of your points have been addressed several times previously. The one that hasn't been is Bubbles dismiss themselves. In notification-daemon, that was dependent on the bubble (expire_timeout). But a bubble that dismissed itself (as they always do in Notify OSD) would be no notification at all, if it opened at a time of day when you were never at the computer; and conversely, a bubble that didn't dismiss itself would be more annoying than an alert box, because it would float on top of every window. Chauncellor: Thanks for the kind words, but I'm under no illusions that the current presentation is perfect. :-) We can improve the settings to encourage automatic updates, make the window less annoying by making its default size smaller, improve its layout and text, and reduce the number of windows that open by merging the progress window into the main window. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareUpdates and https://code.launchpad.net/update-manager if you're interested in helping out. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 Title: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
** Changed in: update-notifier (Ubuntu) Assignee: Registry Administrators (registry) = (unassigned) ** Changed in: update-notifier (Ubuntu Jaunty) Assignee: Registry Administrators (registry) = (unassigned) -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 Title: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
I recently upgraded from Kubuntu 10.10 to Ubuntu 10.10. I find the new update notification window method far inferior to the icon method (I update regularly and timely). I have seen the updater pop up one time so far, and that was over a week ago. Please read on. 1. The update window is disruptive to my workflow. Updates can cause system instability, so I don't do them until lunch, end of day, etc. The window offers me no benefit but costs me an interruption in my work. 2. I dismissed the update notifier window, but I received no future notification of updates being available! This over a week with the system shut down and powered up several times. So, I completely forgot about updates being available and didn't notice this condition until I interacted with Synaptic to install a new package. 3. Sometimes an update requires a reboot. I do hope this situation triggers an icon in the notification tray rather than the window approach used to initiate an update. The alternatives of having to reboot on the spot or remembering to do it later without any helpful prompt seem unreasonable. While update notification may need some improvement, this step seems to be an obvious step in the wrong direction. E-mails don't automatically open upon receipt. Heck, my telephone doesn't automatically answer when it receives a call. I think the cure is worse than the disease. My desktop is my point of interaction with all things virtual. I decide what thing is the most important to next interact with, and what interruption I take vs. which I defer to later. User unsolicited pop-up windows serve to do more harm than good in any workflow scenario I can think of. Please consider reverting this 'feature'. This is a slipperly slope that does not lead to a good place. In reviewing this thread, I find the reasons why this change is bad to be generally reasonable. Additionally, I find the justifications for the change to be bordering on rationalization. I'd like to respond to this message: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu- devel/2009-February/027434.html regarding the reasons as to why the pop- up window solution is a good idea. *point* The basic reason is that it's more obvious: a 22*22-pixel icon in the notification area could never convey the idea that there are software updates available to a usefully large proportion of our users, no matter how good the icon designer was. An actual sentence saying Software updates are available for this computer can do a much better job *response* This is uncomfortably shaky logic. A new user only has to figure this out once. We would never consider it a productivity benefit to have the e-mail client auto-open urgent messages. If notification behavior is changing because users aren't updating fast enough, the root cause has nothing to do with the fact that users don't know which icon to press. *point* a notification bubble pointing atxthe icon... they disappear after a few seconds *point* or they persist and get in the way of whatever else you're working on. *point* if two of them happen to appear pointing at different icons simultaneously, the bubbles collide messily. *point* To prevent these problems from recurring, Ubuntu's new notification system does not allow bubbles to point at icons ... new users would have been trying to click on the icon inside the bubble itself ... *response* These are all issues with the notification system. Issues here affect not just the update notifier, but all users of the notification system. Solving update notification by avoiding the notification feature to do something unique is a double-bad: there are now variances in system behavior that are probably unnecessary, and time is spent 'fixing' one notifier that could have been invested in improving the facility for all. These strike me as rationalizations. My 'favorite' is saying that bubbles get in the way. Surely an app window many times larger is worse! Or the window pops under and is hidden! *point* ... it's less work for users. Instead clicking a little icon in the panel then clicking an Install button, you just click the Install button. *response* IMO, the disruption in my use of the desktop by an unsolicited window open is far worse than having to make a second click! *point* Even if you really don't want to install updates just now, the close button for the updates window is larger than the close button in the old bubble was. *response* Not a point. Bubbles dismiss themselves. *point* As Siegfried has described, if you don't want to use Update Manager at all, you can turn off the automatic checking. *response* The comment isn't related to the issue at hand. The point is not how to disable notifications, but how to improve them. I think a better solution is to return to using the standard notification system, fixing whatever usability problems exist with it to the benefit of all notifiers.
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
I'm going to come clean. After all the garbage that I cannot believe I wrote in the last two years I must admit that the current model far outstrips the previous one. While it sports some interesting downsides to consider I feel that the model works somewhat beautifully. As of Maverick there is a pop-under window that presents itself - When the user decides to update, it's smooth and unnoticable enough that you may continue your activities. Should a restart be required, there's no pop-up window. There's no bubble, notification, MS Bob bouncing around. There's a simple, easy-to- see box in the update-manager that informs the user and presents a nice little button. Also, the power indicator glows red. Simple, beautiful. With Unity around the corner I imagine this will get even better. I'm guessing that there will be a shiny little launcher in the left panel that will sexy up the process a little bit. And with the smaller, iconic paradigm there will be far less clutter. I admit that I was the victim of stubborn resistance to change - even when I thought I was sensible enough to detect the behavior. I would like to thank Ayatana for the great and hard work being done. I would also like to thank and apologize to Matthew Paul Thomas; it is the mark of a great worker to be able to bear the weight of unfounded flames and you've shouldered that for a long time now. I'm marking this bug as not affecting me: The model has outclassed any other forms of updating that I've yet encountered. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 Title: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Another interesting problem from this change is Bug #414181. If the user doesn't respond to the automatically opened update-manager in a timely fashion the Install button becomes non-functional. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
See Bug 549799. Now (recent change to Lucid) the icon now longer shows up at all, even setting auto_launch to false. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
This is just useless .. *sigh* -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
I get no window popping up and no icon in the notification area - I get no updates at all. How can I get at least one of them working? I prefer the icon. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
So, any news on getting old behaviour back? or any changes to existing popup ? -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
** Changed in: null Status: Fix Released = Fix Committed ** Changed in: null Status: Fix Committed = Fix Released -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
This is what I can do in one minute, and I'm no hacker or webdesigner: http://www.ime.unicamp.br/~martinez/leandro/test1.html Click on the click here and then click anywhere on the image. I myself got confused while doing this because the first image is totally realistic on my system and I had the update manager and the site opened at the same time. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
OK Leandro, I just sent an email to Ayatana list with your mockup and presenting the argument on the possible security flaw. Let us see how it goes. However, I would not be very hopeful, it seems like people in Canonical are convinced that the new behavior is good. best, Paulo On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Leandro leandromartine...@gmail.com wrote: This is what I can do in one minute, and I'm no hacker or webdesigner: http://www.ime.unicamp.br/~martinez/leandro/test1.html Click on the click here and then click anywhere on the image. I myself got confused while doing this because the first image is totally realistic on my system and I had the update manager and the site opened at the same time. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber of the bug. -- Paulo José da Silva e Silva Professor Associado, Dep. de Ciência da Computação (Associate Professor, Computer Science Dept.) Universidade de São Paulo - Brazil e-mail: pjssi...@ime.usp.br Web: http://www.ime.usp.br/~pjssilva -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 13:13 +, Paulo J. S. Silva wrote: OK Leandro, I just sent an email to Ayatana list with your mockup and presenting the argument on the possible security flaw. Let us see how it goes. However, I would not be very hopeful, it seems like people in Canonical are convinced that the new behavior is good. People can get emotionally attached to an expended time and effort (with the alternative being to throw the result away and feel like your time has been wasted) and start to put up blinders to the real issues. This is similar to the phenomenon that allows projects to run 10-fold over time and budget. At every progress report on the overage, the team is convinced that they only need [insert small amount here] more to complete the project. Then, the more management invests in a project the more likely they are going to continue to throw good money after bad to finally see it through rather than cutting bait early on in the disaster. After-all, who wants to say we blew and have nothing to show for it rather than continuing the fantasy of eventually having something, even though it cost you 10 or 20x your original budget. Hopefully this is not what is happening here. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Graeme the number of duplicates speaks for itself. But it seems that, for some reason, no usability is involved in this bug (the current behaviour is against nearly *every* usability rule ). I assume (and I hope) that this more-important-than-usability reason worth it and I would like more communication from the people responsible of this behaviour. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
On Tue, 2009-11-17 at 08:11 +, Lionel Dricot wrote: Graeme the number of duplicates speaks for itself. But it seems that, for some reason, no usability is involved in this bug What is intriguing with Graeme's user scenario is, why have the users been ignoring the window which was popping up? Why were they not updating when the window opened and dismissing it instead? [not to troll , Just curious.] Isnt it because the users were instructed to depend on the icon only? If they were told to update when the update-manager window opens wouldnt this have been solved? (the current behaviour is against nearly *every* usability rule ). As in? I assume (and I hope) that this more-important-than-usability reason worth it and I'm not a huge fan of this change , but it has its merits. I would like more communication from the people responsible of this behaviour. mpt has explained this change plenty of times on this bug report. you can see the number of comments he has made , kindly read them. Not sure how much more it can be explained. OTOH , the update manager window ,as well, is going to be improved for Lucid. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
mac_v I've posted some answers in this comment : https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update- notifier/+bug/332945/comments/430 It's up to the user to choose when he wants to update. Forcing him is *never* the good time. Poping up a window will *always* be annoying. When a normal user open his computer, it's because he needs it, maybe urgently. So any popup is an annoyance and immediately dismissed. 100% of the Ubuntu users I support (close friends, family, related) told me that they had a bug because the update window was poping up *every time* without reason (they didn't ask for an upgrade so it was considered as a bug and they are right) Basic usability rules : 1) Never do something unexpected except if it's critical to preserve user data. Other usability rules : 2) Never popup a window without being asked for it. It will always when you do not want it (typical example : a public presentation with your computer plugged on a beamer) 3) Never ask anything at start. Starting the computer is not a special event and, generally, when the user boot his computer, he want to do something. This something might be urgent (like checking train timetable or the hour of a meeting quickly in an elevator). Anything that slow him is a bug. 4) Listen to the user. If the user close without doing an upgrade, don't open it again a few minutes/hours/days later. I've often heard : I did the upgrade! It still appears! There's no way to make this window disappearing once for all? (there are some upgrade nearly every day in the weeks after a release) 5) Allow user to discard and recover later : if the user closes the windows, it's hard to find how to do the upgrade if he doesn't know the administration menu (most users don't and it should not be required). With the notification icon, the user is warned but can keep it for later. My mother used to say there's the orange icon. I will wait the next time you come here to do that upgrade so you can solve it if there is any trouble. Since Jaunty, she had not do any upgrade at all, only complained about the popping window. 6) Never force the user to do anything. It's simply bad experience. People hate being forced to do stuff, even if they know they have to. Say you have to drink water when doing sport and people will listen. Give a glass of water, put in the mouth of someone and say drink! is simply not an accepted behaviour (even by thirsty people). (this analogy is seen by many researchers as one main reason why people dislike current technologies. They feel that they are not empowered but, au contraire, that they have to fight the technology. But I disgress…) In fact, I tend to believe that only geeks that have their computer always on can consider the current behaviour as not too annoying. I'm sorry, but none of the comments I've read answered my questions (I might have overlooked some, given the high number). I still cannot find any usability point that were improved with the current behaviour. Disabling the updater daemon is now part of my installation routine for newbies. (well, I'm still looking for someone that will find that useful so I do it only when they tell me they have a bug with a window appearing all the time). I also cannot understand why so much work is put in the notification system (I really *love* it) if it's not used when you want to notify the user about something. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Disabling the updater daemon is now part of my installation routine for newbies. (well, I'm still looking for someone that will find that useful so I do it only when they tell me they have a bug with a window appearing all the time). Why disable it? Just use gconf and recover the old (and good) behavior. Paulo -- Paulo José da Silva e Silva Professor Associado, Dep. de Ciência da Computação (Associate Professor, Computer Science Dept.) Universidade de São Paulo - Brazil e-mail: pjssi...@ime.usp.br Web: http://www.ime.usp.br/~pjssilva -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Paulo because I didn't know. Thanks for the information :-) -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Or, in a one-liner: gconftool -s --type bool /apps/update- notifier/auto_launch false Please fix this. Even as this CLI-entry is not much work, I'm trying to keep my post-install tasks to the absolute minimum. Everything what can be said, is already said here above, well put, especially by Lionel (Dricot); I've really nothing to add. Let work this out (restore the old behaviour) and point our energy to more important work, there's enough to do. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
mac_v wrote: What is intriguing with Graeme's user scenario is, why have the users been ignoring the window which was popping up? Why were they not updating when the window opened and dismissing it instead? On all computers I've installed Karmic (and Jaunty before) the update-manager windows opens in the background (either in minimized mode, or behind other windows, or on the wrong desktop). Since Linux users aren't used to closing one program before opening another (and I believe Windows users don't really have to do that any more in recent Windows versions), the user never knows there are updates available, because they always have at least one other application on top. Opening the update-manager window on top of all other windows is not good either, since it disrupts the user's workflow (which would end up with the window being closed by the user). I believe the developer(s) that advocated the new behavior have a different workflow, and thus doesn't have any problems with it. On the other hand, when the new behavior was still in discussion, they promised us that they would study the ratio of people updating regularly, compare with the previous ratios, and revert if it proved unsuccessful. I still haven't seen those numbers elsewhere, and up now we can only get anecdotal evidence that it doesn't work. Eventually, it all depends if you find it important or not that Ubuntu users install security updates or not, and if you don't there's no way any more comments on this bug report are going to make you admit it if you were wrong (especially if, at an individual level, you prefer the new behavior for whatever reasons). -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
mac_v What is intriguing with Graeme's user scenario is, why have the users been ignoring the window which was popping up? This is important to look at, I think. Others have mentioned reasons for this that overlap what I've seen: windows pop up minimized, or behind other windows so they don't get seen. Plus, they've been trained by the operating systems they use that important things notify from the system tray or the notification area, and that anything that pops up without them requesting it is broken or is some hassle come up with by some marketroid. In my parents case, and the case of some of the other users where I work, they dismiss it before even seeing what it is. As long as they've got that tiny notification icon saying there's updates, they'll do them when they're not busy, and they're quite good about doing that. Otherwise, they will just continue to dismiss the intrusive update- manager popup, and get back to what they're doing. So, from my observations, the new system of notification for updates is essentially trying to retrain users away from what is intuitive and unobtrusive for them, to something that's part of a potentially harmful set of behaviour on other platforms (read: Windows) that they also have to use. The fact is, when you're talking about having to retrain your entire user base (especially the least technical users), and your solution is for them to remember to run an arcane console command only documented in a bug report hundreds of comments deep? You've lost your usability argument. Straight up. Finding out why and fixing the behaviour is the next step, but you need to accept the changes you've made simply aren't working for people. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
As a personal sidenote, I want to add that, during the early discussion, I was not opposed to the idea. I had a lot of doubt but it has to be tried. I was kind of agnostic so let's try and see. Now, I can say that I've seen. It's not a matter of personal preferences : it's a matter when user you support report you a bug when it is supposed to be a feature. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
What is intriguing with Graeme's user scenario is, why have the users been ignoring the window which was popping up? Users ignore this kind of popup behavior because the internet, and viruses do this crap all the time. The same way you filter out ads online, in the store, on tv, wherever you are... you don't see an ad trying to get your attention and say OH DAMN, MUST PAY ATTENTION! There *was* one place we knew we could always look when we had updates... and now it's lost in the shuffle of random crap in the background. On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 4:07 AM, mac_v drkv...@yahoo.com wrote: On Tue, 2009-11-17 at 08:11 +, Lionel Dricot wrote: Graeme the number of duplicates speaks for itself. But it seems that, for some reason, no usability is involved in this bug What is intriguing with Graeme's user scenario is, why have the users been ignoring the window which was popping up? Why were they not updating when the window opened and dismissing it instead? [not to troll , Just curious.] Isnt it because the users were instructed to depend on the icon only? If they were told to update when the update-manager window opens wouldnt this have been solved? (the current behaviour is against nearly *every* usability rule ). As in? I assume (and I hope) that this more-important-than-usability reason worth it and I'm not a huge fan of this change , but it has its merits. I would like more communication from the people responsible of this behaviour. mpt has explained this change plenty of times on this bug report. you can see the number of comments he has made , kindly read them. Not sure how much more it can be explained. OTOH , the update manager window ,as well, is going to be improved for Lucid. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber of the bug. Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: Invalid Status in NULL Project: Fix Released Status in “update-notifier” package in Ubuntu: Won't Fix Status in “update-notifier” source package in Jaunty: Won't Fix Bug description: I am referring to the removal up the update-notifier in the Gnome notification area. The discussion of it is embedded in the thread headed by: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027416.html Specific messages worth reading are: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027434.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027451.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027454.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027437.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027445.html Matthew Paul Thomas says that the desired behavior is: * When there are security updates, Update Manager will open and show them (plus any other available updates) within a day. * When there are non-security updates, Update Manager will open and show them *one week* after it was last opened (whether it was last opened manually or automatically, and regardless of whether updates were actually installed then). * When there are no available updates, Update Manager will not open automatically at all. Desired by whom? And where was discussion of this change that effects the entire Ubuntu community? Because some percentage of users don't apparently understand that the notification area has meaning, we are not going to use it for updates? Chow Loong Jin raised a valid point that if update notification is now done by opening the entire update manager program, perhaps evolution and similar should open their application UIs rather than use the notification area. And there are concerns about unintended functional consequences of this ill-conceived change, discussed in the thread. Personally, I predict that opening the Update Manager window while people are working will piss off a lot of users when it happens, and may result in them wanting to disable automatic checking. Yes, that'll be highly desirable, won't it? In other words, this change should be corrected, and a notification icon should be displayed when updates are available. The window currently opens far too often when security updates are available: this is because of bug 369198, which is awaiting testing before it can be fixed in Ubuntu 9.04. To disable the new behaviour and get the old behaviour: gconftool -s --type bool /apps/update-notifier/auto_launch false (Take into account that this gconf change is not supported.) To have the update manager launch immediately when updates are available, use this: gconftool -s --type int /apps/update-notifier/regular_auto_launch_interval 0 -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
There is a simple solution to this problem Turn off auto update And check it manually. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Dave The root problem with all of this, for me, is that users aren't doing their updates. Your solution is simply to make the problem worse. No thanks. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Yes, Dave, this is what I do in all machines I install. Simply put, most machines I install (family and friends) only get updated when I really have nothing else to do. This is only because I want these people to like Ubuntu and that popup is extremelly annoying. Fortunatelly updates are not that important. Since I found that I could turn off the update notifier I was happy and this bug does not botter me anymore. But I still think it is a great regression. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
The problem was that users were not applying their updates. Now the problem is that an annoying popup (or popunder) is jumping on our desktops, and the first problem was aggravated for some people posting here (the statistics of that is missing, as noted before). Also, can you imagine the security absurd for a unexperienced user which gets used to the system popuping something AND asking for root privileges? How easy is to mimic that with a website popup? -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
2009/11/17 Leandro leandromartine...@gmail.com: Also, can you imagine the security absurd for a unexperienced user which gets used to the system popuping something AND asking for root privileges? How easy is to mimic that with a website popup? That is a major point. If there anyone can mimic the pop-up behavior using a website maybe, and I mean just maybe, we can get the developers attention on this possible security role. However it would need to be done very carefully so that the developers can not counter argument (I have the feeling that I have already something on this subject in Ayatana list, but it didn't catch up). If we had a web site that could mimic the behavior so that a innocent user might give away his root password then we may have a real situation to complain once again. Unfortunately I don't have the resources (knowledge and time) to try to do it myself. Paulo -- Paulo José da Silva e Silva Professor Associado, Dep. de Ciência da Computação (Associate Professor, Computer Science Dept.) Universidade de São Paulo - Brazil e-mail: pjssi...@ime.usp.br Web: http://www.ime.usp.br/~pjssilva -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Le mardi 17 novembre 2009 à 21:17 +, Paulo J. S. Silva a écrit : That is a major point. If there anyone can mimic the pop-up behavior using a website maybe, and I mean just maybe, we can get the developers attention on this possible security role. This should *NOT* be a developer decision as it's only a matter of checking a box in GConf. This is an usability decision (and maybe also a security related decision). Some of the best developers out there are simply not able to think about usability (even if they often think they are) and some of the best usability specialists cannot write a Hello World. Definitely not the same job. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Lionel, Whoever made the decision (in this case probably some usability expert), will have to at least reconsider his/her decision in face of a real security risk even if to confirm it later. In my email, please read developer in a more general sense, as someone in the development team who is responsible for such decisions. Paulo 2009/11/17 Lionel Dricot pl...@ploum.net: Le mardi 17 novembre 2009 à 21:17 +, Paulo J. S. Silva a écrit : That is a major point. If there anyone can mimic the pop-up behavior using a website maybe, and I mean just maybe, we can get the developers attention on this possible security role. This should *NOT* be a developer decision as it's only a matter of checking a box in GConf. This is an usability decision (and maybe also a security related decision). Some of the best developers out there are simply not able to think about usability (even if they often think they are) and some of the best usability specialists cannot write a Hello World. Definitely not the same job. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber of the bug. -- Paulo José da Silva e Silva Professor Associado, Dep. de Ciência da Computação (Associate Professor, Computer Science Dept.) Universidade de São Paulo - Brazil e-mail: pjssi...@ime.usp.br Web: http://www.ime.usp.br/~pjssilva -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
This change is absolutely idiotic, despite all the rationalizing I've seen here. The proof is in the actual use cases. Everyone I know who has upgraded thought they broke something, because they were no longer getting update notifications, since the OSD notifications happened when they were AFK, and were not persistent. My parents and grandparents (who I've gotten quite well-trained at doing their updates, and cause me virtually no support hassles since I switched them to Ubuntu) haven't done updates in weeks because they didn't know there was any. Change it back. Flat out. This is horrible. It doesn't work for the users at all, from low end to high end. People aren't updating their systems. Any usability testing with real users would've told you this. It simply doesn't work the way you think it should. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Just another voice to add to this discussion which echos a fair amount of what I have already read. - When I upgraded to Jaunty, I noticed that the update icon did not appear. I assumed that this was a bug introduced during the update. - upgrade manager juat appearing on its own is a really bad idea. It looks like malware. My opinion for what it is worth. The notification panel works great for me. The notification icon is one of the things I think is great in Ubuntu. Its removal is a backwards step. Launching the update manager is a retrograde step. If the designers think that the update icon is being ignored by a lot of people, then why not let it make a nuisance of itself if it has been ignored for a specified length of time, say a fortnight or a month. Make it flash, change colour etc. That way people will have to pay attention to it. To my mind, the old method was ideal. I like the notification area - I don't mind the number of things in there and I DO like the notification icon. Just changing it into what we have at the moment is pretty unforgiveable. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
karmic update forced new behaviour on me *again*. just annoying. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
A friend that was test driving Ubuntu said the following: I think it's not horrible, but not as good as the little notification would be. She also stated, It's annoying. Just an update. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
A side effect of this decision causes update-manager to give /var/lib/dpkg/lock errors when automatic security updates it turned on. See this papercut Bug #369706 for details. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Rajeev Nair, if Update Manager appears for users who do not have permission to install updates, please report a separate bug about that. (That would be just as wrong for a notification icon as it is for Update Manager.) ** Changed in: hundredpapercuts Status: New = Invalid -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
I don't believe personnal opinions are relevants when we talk about user experience. I was personnaly not against the current behaviour as I thought why not. But now, I have some numbers. I've converted my whole family and most of my circle of friends to Ubuntu. Once in a while, I help them to upgrade to the new version because, most of the time, it breaks ( the story is here : http://ploum.frimouvy.org/?203-upgrading-an-existing-ubuntu-the- kill-your-desktop-machine ) I've already upgraded a few of them to Jaunty and, so far, I've had a 100% return rate of I have a bug, I always have this popup. I mean 100%. Every single user complains ! I took the time to explain them but : - It appeared that most users were aware of ugrades but didn't do it because it already broke, at least once, the installation (see my previous link). - The other users were not aware of upgrade because the notification area was too busy ( see http://ploum.frimouvy.org/?219-the-aristocratic-desktop-part-3-there-s-no-tray-icon-in-gnome ) - Users didn't like being forced to do the upgrade (and, indeed, that's basic user experience, guys !) - Users that did the upgrade were completely pissed off when they still had upgrades the day after (indeed, an new upgrade could happens during the night but they didn't realized it as it was upgrade). The last point is one of the worst, I believe. So far, it looks like there's one problem that we should adress : people don't do the upgrades. My experience identifies two root causes : 1) people don't feel confident enough to upgrade. 2) peopel don't see the upgrade icon because notification area is too crowded. Ubuntu solution to force users to do the upgrade when the system want it (and not the user) is just ignoring the causes and trying to solve the symptoms. As this bug popularity demonstrates it, it added a lot of other problems and, yet, didn't solved anything. Indeed, I've discovered that now users just take the habit to cilck cancel when they see this windows, just like in Windows ! So, what's next ? Disabling the cancel button to force the upgrade with a countdown ? Or just try to think a bit more about the root cause of the problem ? This is of course a post-mortem analysis, Perhaphs it has to be tried and I think we, people working in usability, have learned a lot from this real-life usecase. But sometimes, we have to just accept that it, retrospectively, was an error and step back to a saner default until we can come with a better solution. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Hi Mathew P Thomas Any user who knows the admin password can install updates, so iam not sure what you mean by 'update manager appears for users who dont have permission to install' Anyways, glad you still are present in this thread.Iam expecting something spectacular for notifications in karmic. But as of now,i dont see anything at all.No notify osd or anything.Sometimes it shows if some app crashed. Just one question, since the osd goes off in some seconds, how does the system handle notifying the user again? -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
On Mon, 2009-08-17 at 15:04 +, Rajeev Nair wrote: Any user who knows the admin password can install updates, That's a pretty long stretch -- assuming that all users have the admin password. This is *exactly* the mentality that has lead to millions of windows machines being exploited and botnet soldiers. Users should not have the admin password. so iam not sure what you mean by 'update manager appears for users who dont have permission to install' Again, not all users have admin rights. You need to stop thinking about the simplistic case of home user that installs Ubuntu on their own machine. In a properly managed corporate environment, the users won't have admin rights. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Rajeev Nair: You said: Any user who knows the admin password can install updates... Did you actually test this with a user who is not in the admin group? What admin password do you have in mind, since Ubuntu systems do not normally have a root password? I think you are mistaken. Only users in group admin can install package updates, as far as I know, and as far as my own testing here on Ubuntu 9.04 Jaunty and Ubuntu Karmic Alpha4 shows. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
I agree with corey.Update manager is a huge resource hog.In my office with 50 systems,not a single one is updated ,because the systems dont belong to the employee who uses it. But almost each one of them updates their systems at home.Through the windows or ubuntu icon.Now we went ahead with jaunty ,and all it does is pop up the update manager,which the users close anyway,but end up highly irritated. And end up messing up some code due to the distraction and the system freezes on occasion. True story. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Everybody knows, except the Ayatana team, that a flashing window is annoying and distracting. Real annoying use cases are so common that there's no point in enumerating them. My suggestion is to reconfigure the update notifier to only check for updates every two weeks. This should be enough time to forget that update notifier exists and be only disappointed with Ubuntu twice per month (this is a moderatelly reasonable count, when compared with other OSes). An alternative option (which has been itching me for weeks) is to write an application to notify the Ayatana team (by sending an e-mail to the mailing list) every time you update your system. The message is very important, because they serve as an acknowledgement to the urgent message they impose us to read. Also, they are willing to read it, and will read it, because they understand the importance of security. This way, they can rest assured that all our systems are secure and up-to- date. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Sorry, the previous message is probably not addressed to Ayatana tem, but to whatever team that has decided to change the behavior of update notifier. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
hdante: Your snide remarks made me chuckle for quite a while. I'm all for a program that does that! Seriously, though, at 31 dupes, more subscribers than I can count, and a 100 percent (I believe) consensus from the community that this behavior is stupid, I'm a little sad to notice that there's nothing being done. Or rather, nothing ALLOWED to be done. It seems to be beyond the point of the average user as opposed to the power user. The sheer, overwhelming number of people, power user or no, that agree that this *needs* to be changed for the better should be a fair indicator. I'm not terribly miffed if a faulty program is shipped by default in Ubuntu (Hardy's PulseAudio - what a mess), but I am extremely sad that my favorite cause has to become so distinguished in its tact (or lack therof). I'm just trying to illustrate the reality that this is truly offensive to some people. This and the whole Ubuntu One naming fiasco is something that I think needs much revision. I really adore Canonical, and I think you and Shuttleworth all have done wonders for the community, but you must remember that this relationship is symbiotic! Without each other, there's no Ubuntu, just another distro! -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Any one ever consider that the update manager uses a whole bunch of resources. For older systems it renders the rest of the desktop almost useless until its finished loading, and completely locks it up if you were already using a resource intensive app. For me and I suspect some others at least Updates need to be done when the computer is not in use (in other words when I say) so forcing the update manager to start is not only annoying, its potentially damaging. What exactly was wrong with a few kb used for the icon? Why should I suffer because some people have bad computer habits, you ignore notifications you deserve the consequences. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
If you can provide a realistic way of spoofing either the updates window or the resulting password dialog in a way that an Ubuntu user might be exposed to (e.g. a Web page or an e-mail message), please attach a demo to bug 370248. Thanks. Loïc Martin, it should be abundantly clear from the comments in this bug report that saving space was not the primary rationale for making this change. (And even if it had been, that would not necessarily mean the interface must be changed starting with the biggest element and working down.) John Vivirito, you're giving me unpleasant flashbacks from a decade ago, when people used to propose various inane design issues be offered as options in the Mozilla installer (for example, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=48688). It would be even less useful for Ubuntu now than it would have been for Mozilla then, because many if not most Ubuntu users don't install the OS themselves. ** Bug watch added: Mozilla Bugzilla #48688 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=48688 -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
maybe we can make the new feature an opt-in instead of an opt-out? that way people that dont want to use it dont have to. I know it defeats the purpose of the whole redesign of it but it is really annoying. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
This solution to my above comment may not be popular : maybe have an option on the installer to use it or not -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Loïc Martin: I believe that, while it was certainly a plus for them to clean up the notification dialogue, the end goal was to make updates more noticeable and present for the average user that would probably just ignore the icon in the tray. Nine out of ten Windows machines that I fix have a swamp of icons in the tray, and the customers that I handle almost always don't know what any of them do. While there is certainly a lesser amount of icons in Ubuntu, it would still probably be ignored just as much. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
A quote from my friend on his Mac's notification system: I find the bouncy icon annoying and all, but if it weren't there I'd probably never update. When it does bounce, I see all the updates and if I don't use some programs in the list ill [sic] just ignore them altogether. While I in NO WAY would like to see bouncing icons, I think it proves that there can be something done other than blatant pop-ups that will grab the user's attention. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
On lun, 2009-07-06 at 13:36 +, Chauncellor wrote: A quote from my friend on his Mac's notification system: I find the bouncy icon annoying and all, but if it weren't there I'd probably never update. When it does bounce, I see all the updates and if I don't use some programs in the list ill [sic] just ignore them altogether. While I in NO WAY would like to see bouncing icons, I think it proves that there can be something done other than blatant pop-ups that will grab the user's attention. But, yes I know that guidelines are usually untouchable for good reasons, but I ask: why couldn't they just blink for two seconds, with a long period (e.g. .5 secs)? And then stay normal, and then blink again in two hours or so. It wouldn't be annoying at all I think. V. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
I can certainly agree with and appreciate that. It is true that the notification area in the average Ubuntu installation is nowhere near as cluttered as the system tray in the average Windows installation, and it is better to solve a problem *before* it becomes a problem rather than after. I'd like to think that Ubuntu users are a cut above Windows users, and that we don't simply ignore icons we don't understand. With that said, however, I also understand that when a Windows user chooses to (or is persuaded to) try out Linux, Ubuntu is usually the distro of choice - and for good reason. While a cluttered notification area is not very ideal, forcing windows to pop up uncommanded in the user's face is truly bad form - the sort of thing I thought GNU/Linux was above. The average Windows convert would likely panic, thinking that he or she had contracted a virus; and the average Linux user would start having Windows flashbacks. I realize I'm preaching to the choir here, and that the people who *really* need to hear this are no longer listening, but... If Ubuntu is going to continue to serve as the bridge between the Windows and Linux communities, then we really need to set better examples than this, and not give in to the Windows way of doing things. -Original Message- From: Chauncellor Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 13:13:25 - Loïc Martin: I believe that, while it was certainly a plus for them to clean up the notification dialogue, the end goal was to make updates more noticeable and present for the average user that would probably just ignore the icon in the tray. Nine out of ten Windows machines that I fix have a swamp of icons in the tray, and the customers that I handle almost always don't know what any of them do. While there is certainly a lesser amount of icons in Ubuntu, it would still probably be ignored just as much. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
mac_v wrote: The notification area icon is *not* returning... That's not true. The notification area icon is probably not returning for the next release of Ubuntu, but in 2 or 3 years time, when everybody will have forgotten, there's nothing to prevent it to be reintroduced as a groundbreaking new feature in Ubuntu. It just needs the designer to change his mind (unless the idea to test it in Jaunty was just for show, and the designer actually only care to get his feature implemented), or just move on to another job. It might take more time, maybe 5 to 10 years, but saying it will not return is a bit far-fetched. And saying that saving 20x20 pixel (the notification area icon) is an issue only to waste far more space on the bottom panel (Window List) and on the desktop is certainly a design issue that needs to be rethought. Since it doesn't use the notification icon, the new behavior actually has to use the Windows List AND the desktop as huge notification areas - they're not designed for this task, and misusing desktop features is certainly a bigger design issue. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
In what way will the way the pop under change in the way it is presented? It really doesn't matter how it is presented, if it pops up in the users space it is going to be hated by most people. Media center PC's, presentations, people doing real work will always find it a huge annoyance if it uses the user program space (the desktop) in any fashion short of checking that the PC has been idle for at least a couple of hours and that no media types are playing. boun...@canonical.com wrote: mac_v wrote: The notification area icon is *not* returning... That's not true. The notification area icon is probably not returning for the next release of Ubuntu, but in 2 or 3 years time, when everybody will have forgotten, there's nothing to prevent it to be reintroduced as a groundbreaking new feature in Ubuntu. It just needs the designer to change his mind (unless the idea to test it in Jaunty was just for show, and the designer actually only care to get his feature implemented), or just move on to another job. It might take more time, maybe 5 to 10 years, but saying it will not return is a bit far-fetched. And saying that saving 20x20 pixel (the notification area icon) is an issue only to waste far more space on the bottom panel (Window List) and on the desktop is certainly a design issue that needs to be rethought. Since it doesn't use the notification icon, the new behavior actually has to use the Windows List AND the desktop as huge notification areas - they're not designed for this task, and misusing desktop features is certainly a bigger design issue. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber of the bug. Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: New Status in NULL Project: Fix Released Status in “update-notifier” package in Ubuntu: Won't Fix Status in update-notifier in Ubuntu Jaunty: Won't Fix Bug description: I am referring to the removal up the update-notifier in the Gnome notification area. The discussion of it is embedded in the thread headed by: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027416.html Specific messages worth reading are: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027434.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027451.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027454.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027437.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027445.html Matthew Paul Thomas says that the desired behavior is: * When there are security updates, Update Manager will open and show them (plus any other available updates) within a day. * When there are non-security updates, Update Manager will open and show them *one week* after it was last opened (whether it was last opened manually or automatically, and regardless of whether updates were actually installed then). * When there are no available updates, Update Manager will not open automatically at all. Desired by whom? And where was discussion of this change that effects the entire Ubuntu community? Because some percentage of users don't apparently understand that the notification area has meaning, we are not going to use it for updates? Chow Loong Jin raised a valid point that if update notification is now done by opening the entire update manager program, perhaps evolution and similar should open their application UIs rather than use the notification area. And there are concerns about unintended functional consequences of this ill-conceived change, discussed in the thread. Personally, I predict that opening the Update Manager window while people are working will piss off a lot of users when it happens, and may result in them wanting to disable automatic checking. Yes, that'll be highly desirable, won't it? In other words, this change should be corrected, and a notification icon should be displayed when updates are available. The window currently opens far too often when security updates are available: this is because of bug 369198, which is awaiting testing before it can be fixed in Ubuntu 9.04. To disable the new behaviour and get the old behaviour: gconftool -s --type bool /apps/update-notifier/auto_launch false (Take into account that this gconf change is not supported.) To have the update manager launch immediately when updates are available, use this: gconftool -s --type int /apps/update-notifier/regular_auto_launch_interval 0 -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
i like the way it was in intrepid -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Still getting dupes of this. We're up to 32, now Any word on what's up? -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
When I reported the bug I thought it might be a security issue and I still think it might. In my case the window opened spontaneously and I got notification of updates but when I closed that window without updating and clicked on update manager to deliberately open the window and check for updates I got message that there were no updates.This happened twice and the second time I made certain that to close the spontaneously opened window without updating but still, when I myself opened update manager, I got notification there were no updates . Has someone (big if) found a way to mimic the update window? If so it can be used it to spoof us into downloading malicious software.Even if they don't use it for this purpose it implies a possible weakness in system security. But I emphasize that I don't know if this is indeed the case. Other than that I have no idea of what is happening. Chauncellor wrote: Still getting dupes of this. We're up to 32, now Any word on what's up? -- Bernard Springer ath...@gmail.com -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Chauncellor wrote: Still getting dupes of this. We're up to 32, now Any word on what's up? The notification area icon is *not* returning... As for the Automatic Pop-under, work is being done on presenting the window better, so lets wait . -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
+1. Please add my name to the list. The Intrepid behaviour was correct. The Jaunty behaviour is not. What more needs to be said? -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
** Summary changed: - [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information + [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Just my 2 cents, but I consider we're going right into a wall if we design intrusive tools, even if the intrusiveness (does this word exist ?) is legitimate. Remember what about to Windows' UAC. Imo, it should be ok to use a notify-osd notification + a systray icon for updates as soon as they're available, and to pop-up the window only on extreme cases : * one whole week for security updates (yes it's a lot, but i think it's reasonable) * thirty days for normal updates - AND ONLY ONCE ! if the user does not want to do the updates, then let him not do them, his choice ! And if the window opens that way, it should explicitely say There have been updates for # days but you didn't click on the updates orange/red icon in your panel, so we thought you might not have noticed it. If you want to do the updates now, click on the Update button. This way, the user knows _why_ it went in his/her way and will know how to avoid this : by explicitely making the updates when they're available (which should be easy for him/her to see, with the systray icon). -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
** Also affects: hundredpapercuts Importance: Undecided Status: New -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
** Description changed: + * + For anyone who REALLY wants to revert to the pre-Ubuntu 9.04 behaviour, you may run: + + gconftool -s --type bool /apps/update-notifier/auto_launch false + * + I am referring to the removal up the update-notifier in the Gnome notification area. The discussion of it is embedded in the thread headed by: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu- devel/2009-February/027416.html Specific messages worth reading are: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027434.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027451.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027454.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027437.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027445.html Matthew Paul Thomas says that the desired behavior is: * When there are security updates, Update Manager will open and show them (plus any other available updates) within a day. * When there are non-security updates, Update Manager will open and show them *one week* after it was last opened (whether it was last opened manually or automatically, and regardless of whether updates were actually installed then). * When there are no available updates, Update Manager will not open automatically at all. Desired by whom? And where was discussion of this change that effects the entire Ubuntu community? Because some percentage of users don't apparently understand that the notification area has meaning, we are not going to use it for updates? Chow Loong Jin raised a valid point that if update notification is now done by opening the entire update manager program, perhaps evolution and similar should open their application UIs rather than use the notification area. And there are concerns about unintended functional consequences of this ill-conceived change, discussed in the thread. Personally, I predict that opening the Update Manager window while people are working will piss off a lot of users when it happens, and may result in them wanting to disable automatic checking. Yes, that'll be highly desirable, won't it? In other words, this change should be corrected, and a notification icon should be displayed when updates are available. 1]To disable the new behaviour and get the old behaviour use: gconftool -s --type bool /apps/update-notifier/auto_launch false Take into account that this gconf change is not supported. 2]To have the update manager launch immediately when updates are available, use this: gconftool -s --type int /apps/update- notifier/regular_auto_launch_interval 0 -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
So, it turns out that this bug is actually partially fixed (the excessive opening at least) by bug #369198 which has been sitting in SRU (Stable Release Update) verification for 2 months. mvo sladen: it needs a sru-verficiation pitti sladen: well, we need some people giving testing feedback pitti sladen: did you test it? does it work for you? Please install+test+follow the instructions+say if it's working in bug #369198 if you want to see this pushed into Jaunty... ** Description changed: * For anyone who REALLY wants to revert to the pre-Ubuntu 9.04 behaviour, you may run: gconftool -s --type bool /apps/update-notifier/auto_launch false + + A partial fix for update-notifier is queued in bug #369198 awaiting help + TESTING before it can go to Jaunty. + * - I am referring to the removal up the update-notifier in the Gnome - notification area. The discussion of it is embedded in the thread - headed by: + + I am referring to the removal up the update-notifier in the Gnome notification area. The discussion of it is embedded in the thread headed by: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu- devel/2009-February/027416.html Specific messages worth reading are: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027434.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027451.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027454.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027437.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027445.html Matthew Paul Thomas says that the desired behavior is: * When there are security updates, Update Manager will open and show them (plus any other available updates) within a day. * When there are non-security updates, Update Manager will open and show them *one week* after it was last opened (whether it was last opened manually or automatically, and regardless of whether updates were actually installed then). * When there are no available updates, Update Manager will not open automatically at all. Desired by whom? And where was discussion of this change that effects the entire Ubuntu community? Because some percentage of users don't apparently understand that the notification area has meaning, we are not going to use it for updates? Chow Loong Jin raised a valid point that if update notification is now done by opening the entire update manager program, perhaps evolution and similar should open their application UIs rather than use the notification area. And there are concerns about unintended functional consequences of this ill-conceived change, discussed in the thread. Personally, I predict that opening the Update Manager window while people are working will piss off a lot of users when it happens, and may result in them wanting to disable automatic checking. Yes, that'll be highly desirable, won't it? In other words, this change should be corrected, and a notification icon should be displayed when updates are available. 1]To disable the new behaviour and get the old behaviour use: gconftool -s --type bool /apps/update-notifier/auto_launch false Take into account that this gconf change is not supported. 2]To have the update manager launch immediately when updates are available, use this: gconftool -s --type int /apps/update- notifier/regular_auto_launch_interval 0 -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Steve Dodier wrote: Imo, it should be ok to use a notify-osd notification + a systray icon for updates as soon as they're available, and to pop-up the window only on extreme cases : @ Steve: The pop-up window seems like a reasonable option in the scenario's you've given... But i feel that automatic Pop-ups in any form should be discouraged... IMO pop-up/under are a security flaw. NO window Should populate the window list unless the user has opened it... [A Daemon process should NOT open new programs on its own without asking for user's permissions or explicit user settings] A better alternative would be a Notification system that allows interaction/ morphing alert box [So these could present the user with the options to either downloadInstall now or To dismiss] *And repeating the notifications at the time of user's choice*... which makes the need for a systray icon[as a remainder] unnecessary. Also the DX team has made it very clear that systray icon WILL NOT return... I had been very vocal here opposing the change but i went with it... And *even though it might not have been the intended purpose* for the removal of the icon, *I have found the icon removal useful* ... *Now I dont think much about the updates* , there is no icon nagging me about the updates. Just think about the Updates , its just a sugar-coated word for oops-the-devs-didnt-realize-this-mistake-earlier , Updates are for the flaws which wasnt realized while baking the release... and to be fair to all devs ,no OS can EVER do it perfectly without a need for updates. So, instead of drawing so much attention to these updates , making it easy for the end-user to not pay much attention is a more ideal way of thinking. As mpt has said that they are looking for a decent solution,This is what i'v proposed in Ayatana, with Hopes the DX Team takes notice ==For updates to be less intrusive to the user== * From an idea proposed by David Siegel , And further expanding it When the user receives the updates notification,user chooses to download Install the packages , * Installation of Updates the dont require restart are done immediately, * Before starting the installation of package+dependencies, which requires a restart, the user is warned that this particular package requires a reboot. * User either chooses, install now or during next boot . For good implementation of this, updates need to be clearly marked as 1:security 2:criticalsolves a major crash/freeze issue of the package / major improvement of package responsiveness 3:non-criticalminor tweaks to performance So when the user is presented with the update requiring reboot,he is told that [1]This update solves a crash/freeze problem seen in this package/Gives you major improvement of package responsiveness [2] This update is a non-critical update [3] This is a security Update * So the user decides , if he has the problem, he can do the update immediately... If not, delay it for the next boot. * If the user later decides to update before the reboot, he should be able to do so from the update manager, where a reminder saysInstall pending updates. * The same can be done for the firefox updates too... download the updates when the user accepts and since it requires restart of the browser , WAIT till the browser is closed and then install the updates. So no need to restart the browser. * When the user has chosen not to download updates , These notification repeat again at a later time[10mins/30mins/1hr/4hrs/1day/7days],which the user chooses from a drop-down menu and if the user tries to shutdown before updating he is reminded again via the same alerts. Cheers, mac_v -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
I had been very vocal here opposing the change but i went with it... And *even though it might not have been the intended purpose* for the removal of the icon, *I have found the icon removal useful* ... *Now I dont think much about the updates* , there is no icon nagging me about the updates. ... * From an idea proposed by David Siegel , And further expanding it When the user receives the updates notification,user chooses to download Install the packages , * Installation of Updates the dont require restart are done immediately, * Before starting the installation of package+dependencies, which requires a restart, the user is warned that this particular package requires a reboot. * User either chooses, install now or during next boot . If I am working I want to ignore the update message. I will have time for it later in the day. I don't want to decide anything, I want to keep on working. This is already decided. I don't want to take an action. I don't want a pop-up/pop-under (so I have to actively close it). I want a notification for this. It will go away by itself. Maybe a scarier notification (with a different background color, red for example), can be good. So that even though I am free to ignore it, I will know that it is red, then it is a system notification. * When the user has chosen not to download updates , These notification repeat again at a later time[10mins/30mins/1hr/4hrs/1day/7days],which the user chooses from a drop-down menu and if the user tries to shutdown before updating he is reminded again via the same alerts. Really? Usually, if I do not choose to update right away it is because I am concentrating on what I am doing. Usually I can not accurately predict for how long I will work to define the exact moment the update notification should appear again. If the notification appears while I am still concentrating I will not look at it. Or are you talking about the pop-under (that would annoy me again if I am working)? I would greatly prefer to have a constant reminder in the panel. Paulo -- Paulo José da Silva e Silva Professor Associado, Dep. de Ciência da Computação (Associate Professor, Computer Science Dept.) Universidade de São Paulo - Brazil e-mail: pjssi...@ime.usp.br Web: http://www.ime.usp.br/~pjssilva Teoria é o que não entendemos o (Theory is something we don't) suficiente para chamar de prática. (understand well enough to call practice) -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
** Description changed: - * - For anyone who REALLY wants to revert to the pre-Ubuntu 9.04 behaviour, you may run: - - gconftool -s --type bool /apps/update-notifier/auto_launch false - - A partial fix for update-notifier is queued in bug #369198 awaiting help - TESTING before it can go to Jaunty. - - * - - - I am referring to the removal up the update-notifier in the Gnome notification area. The discussion of it is embedded in the thread headed by: + I am referring to the removal up the update-notifier in the Gnome + notification area. The discussion of it is embedded in the thread + headed by: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu- devel/2009-February/027416.html Specific messages worth reading are: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027434.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027451.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027454.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027437.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027445.html Matthew Paul Thomas says that the desired behavior is: * When there are security updates, Update Manager will open and show them (plus any other available updates) within a day. * When there are non-security updates, Update Manager will open and show them *one week* after it was last opened (whether it was last opened manually or automatically, and regardless of whether updates were actually installed then). * When there are no available updates, Update Manager will not open automatically at all. Desired by whom? And where was discussion of this change that effects the entire Ubuntu community? Because some percentage of users don't apparently understand that the notification area has meaning, we are not going to use it for updates? Chow Loong Jin raised a valid point that if update notification is now done by opening the entire update manager program, perhaps evolution and similar should open their application UIs rather than use the notification area. And there are concerns about unintended functional consequences of this ill-conceived change, discussed in the thread. Personally, I predict that opening the Update Manager window while people are working will piss off a lot of users when it happens, and may result in them wanting to disable automatic checking. Yes, that'll be highly desirable, won't it? In other words, this change should be corrected, and a notification icon should be displayed when updates are available. 1]To disable the new behaviour and get the old behaviour use: gconftool -s --type bool /apps/update-notifier/auto_launch false Take into account that this gconf change is not supported. 2]To have the update manager launch immediately when updates are available, use this: gconftool -s --type int /apps/update- notifier/regular_auto_launch_interval 0 -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
** Description changed: I am referring to the removal up the update-notifier in the Gnome notification area. The discussion of it is embedded in the thread headed by: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu- devel/2009-February/027416.html Specific messages worth reading are: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027434.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027451.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027454.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027437.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027445.html Matthew Paul Thomas says that the desired behavior is: * When there are security updates, Update Manager will open and show them (plus any other available updates) within a day. * When there are non-security updates, Update Manager will open and show them *one week* after it was last opened (whether it was last opened manually or automatically, and regardless of whether updates were actually installed then). * When there are no available updates, Update Manager will not open automatically at all. Desired by whom? And where was discussion of this change that effects the entire Ubuntu community? Because some percentage of users don't apparently understand that the notification area has meaning, we are not going to use it for updates? Chow Loong Jin raised a valid point that if update notification is now done by opening the entire update manager program, perhaps evolution and similar should open their application UIs rather than use the notification area. And there are concerns about unintended functional consequences of this ill-conceived change, discussed in the thread. Personally, I predict that opening the Update Manager window while people are working will piss off a lot of users when it happens, and may result in them wanting to disable automatic checking. Yes, that'll be highly desirable, won't it? In other words, this change should be corrected, and a notification icon should be displayed when updates are available. - 1]To disable the new behaviour and get the old behaviour use: + - gconftool -s --type bool /apps/update-notifier/auto_launch false + The window currently opens far too often when security updates are + available: this is because of bug 369198, which is awaiting testing + before it can be fixed in Ubuntu 9.04. - Take into account that this gconf change is not supported. + - 2]To have the update manager launch immediately when updates are + To disable the new behaviour and get the old behaviour: + + gconftool -s --type bool /apps/update-notifier/auto_launch false + + (Take into account that this gconf change is not supported.) + + To have the update manager launch immediately when updates are available, use this: - gconftool -s --type int /apps/update- + gconftool -s --type int /apps/update- notifier/regular_auto_launch_interval 0 ** Tags removed: dxteam -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Paulo J. S. Silva wrote: * When the user has chosen not to download updates , These notification repeat again at a later time[10mins/30mins/1hr/4hrs/1day/7days],which the user chooses from a drop-down menu and if the user tries to shutdown before updating he is reminded again via the same alerts. Really? Usually, if I do not choose to update right away it is because I am concentrating on what I am doing. Usually I can not accurately predict for how long I will work to define the exact moment the update notification should appear again. If the notification appears while I am still concentrating I will not look at it. Or are you talking about the pop-under (that would annoy me again if I am working)? I would greatly prefer to have a constant reminder in the panel. I'm against the pop-ups too, i was referring to interactive notifications/ morphing alert boxes. The next time the reminder pops up, you can again postpone it ... and so on... Well... the DX team is not going to allow panel icon:( , so i feel this is the closest to an update reminder we can have... cheers, mac_v -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
I'm fairly partial to the idea of subtly putting a fade/blink action in the System of the menu bar and devote another menu entry there. Of course, there's a problem if someone wants to remove it. But i really do think that would be the best action. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On 14/06/2009 Chauncellor wrote: After realizing this, I've found out that MPT was right: I don't think that any icon will suit the notification area for a casual user. There is something that needs to be done. HOWEVER, I still don't agree that the pop-up is the necessary solution. I proposed in ayatana an alternative: instead of an icon, put some text there. Like it is done by default for FUSA (fast user-switch applet). Then you can turn it into an icon if you need space. Like it is done for FUSA. But in that case you see the icon in the configuration dialog so you know what it is. Will probably not be accepted but I tried :) Vincenzo -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Il giorno lun, 15/06/2009 alle 22.55 +, bdoe ha scritto: The same could be said for Windows. Since Windows XP SP2, automatic security updates are turned on by default, and users have to specifically opt out of it to turn it off. I want to point out the following to the many who think automatic updates are a good idea. When I started computing I was 8, so perhaps mine is a particular case. But I was _not_ an enfant prodige. I saw the switch from the computer can and should be used by everyone, surely true with those old commodore home computers, even if you had to type to use them, and surely true with macs and with OS/2, to using the computer is difficult, it's impossible, only gurus can do that, it's dangerous etc. This switch happened with windows 95. MS-DOS was used by non-technicians because they needed it. And after all it was clear to everybody what happened: you typed commands in, the computer did something. Microsoft started advertising windows 95 as easy computing for everyone, and at the same time they formed an army of ignorant technicians that are very good at installing windows and all of its accessories (replace this with a bad word of your choice:). This led to the introduction of the ECDL and other amenities. Aren't these two things in open contradiction? You have an operating system that is self-teaching, but you need a course and a certificate that you are able to use it? How it is so? They wanted an economic empire, not an easy to use operating system. Part of this empire is the millions of persons who followed courses on how to make the thing actually work, and became microsoft servants and advocates and linux haters. Most of the times, these persons hate linux because their brain is so flat they really can't tell an applications menu if it's on the top of the screen instead of on the bottom. Sorry for being so direct, that's what I have been observing in Italy at least, in the last 20 years. The growth of a mass of ignorant microsoft servants. Where do I want to go with this? I do not care about the MS habit of turning things on by default even if they can harm, so that a technician must then be called to repair the broken behaviour. This is because your average user, in _their_ opinion, is NOT ABLE TO and SHOULD NOT install the OS by itself, neither should they start using it without a guru on their side. And they should be educated that if they try, then they get punished by all the hidden problems and corner cases they get into. I've seen this many times. And can you hear the operator smile and say you see, you tried to do the work of a technician, it's not easy, next time call us earlier and you'll save more money. Let us not lie about that. Microsoft can reasonably expect experts to install the operating system for users, and then the user must be aware of all the problems that can happen, like e.g. connecting a 3g card and finding a 6k euros bill at the end of the month, or installing an antivirus, removing all the crapware they have pre-installed on their system and so on. They do not care to avoid being in the way of users. The more they are in the way, the more the user will feel unable to use the computer alone, and will resort to the ignorant army. Paying them and so on. And all these users typically feel it's their fault, because they do not know how to use their computer. We are different. Ubuntu can be installed in a small number of easy steps and if it does not go right, we consider it a bug. After installation, the system must NOT require further knowledge to be used without causing problems. I would never second automatic updates unless we ask this to the user for every new connection created. We (ubuntu) shall not risk being labelled as the cause of a consistent money loss, or of being discovered if we ahem, sneak in an open wifi just to take a look to our e-mail. Ask your non-power-user if they did that before. I was surprised to see that ordinary persons do that more than techies. This is probably because techies know what they are doing :) Someone transitioning from a recent version of Windows should be used to that behavior. Yes, they are supposed to know. But how they did discover it? If they are ignorant (the good meaning of the word, this time) about computers, either they found out because they paid a huge bill, or somebody else told them. We must be better. Perhaps, instead of automatically enabling automatic updates, it can be one of the questions asked during Ubuntu installation. On the other hand, this is something I agree with entirely. Vincenzo -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
To use automotive analogies in this... If our check engine light comes on our car taking us in a straight line to the dealership, not following roads, going straight through forest, lakes, streams etc. Its just ludicrous devs hijacking the desktop with unsolicited pop-ups. Update manager is going to become a virus for versions moving forward. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Chauncellor: No it is different. If you read carefully my text you'll see that I consider that the notification area should only be populated by docked applications, that is running applications that usually should stay in the background doing their thing but that want to leave some small presence in the panel to allow for quick, and usually simple, interaction with the user. Think of a media player or a clipboard manager. The notifications of update-notifier are just notifications. You don't want to interact with update-notifier. You interact with update-manager. The old behavior of update notifier would add icons to the notification area that do no represent running applications, and that don't have any other purpose than to call other applications, like update-manager or the restart dialog. The proposal I presented says that the place for such queued notifications is the indicator-applet. There is clear and conceptual difference there. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Paulo: I understand more, now, thanks. I've read the proposals on Launchpad, and I feel that those are better approaches already than what has been done. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
-Original Message- From: Vincenzo Ciancia Subject: Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:59:50 - I am in all ways against automatic updates because I think the user must be aware of when something delicate is happening. E.g. in the last week before submitting a thesis, if the system is upgraded and for some reason broken, you sure that I will come and kill some of you :) You are all lukcy that I am not supposed to submit any more theses. I can see your point; however, this can happen even to those who manually approve each and every update. It happened to me a couple of months ago where I approved a kernel update, and the update crashed X and kept it from being able to start. Granted, I was subscribed to Proposed updates and so expected that sort of thing to happen, but it can still happen to anyone whether the update was automated or not. At least with manual updates, if something goes wrong, you've got a better idea where to look for the cause. At any rate, I don't think it's really going to be a big issue, if only the security updates are automated. I've had automatic updates enabled on my file server for more than a year, and it hasn't crashed yet - and before you say, well, yes, but that's a server, I do have gdm and ubuntu-desktop packages installed. No, we should not do something potentially harmful by default. What if an user does not know this and finds a 6000 euros internet bill at the end of the month? Sure that'll be experience but I don't think they will use linux anymore. Anything that may make automatic connections should require user authorization. How to make this seamless is a possible space for decision. The same could be said for Windows. Since Windows XP SP2, automatic security updates are turned on by default, and users have to specifically opt out of it to turn it off. Someone transitioning from a recent version of Windows should be used to that behavior. Perhaps, instead of automatically enabling automatic updates, it can be one of the questions asked during Ubuntu installation. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Il giorno dom, 14/06/2009 alle 04.56 +, bdoe ha scritto: Regarding automatic updates: I'm with Martin on this one; I believe it should be turned on by default I am in all ways against automatic updates because I think the user must be aware of when something delicate is happening. E.g. in the last week before submitting a thesis, if the system is upgraded and for some reason broken, you sure that I will come and kill some of you :) You are all lukcy that I am not supposed to submit any more theses. However in the current situation it is true that the only advantage of the upgrades popup is ... letting the user decide wether to upgrade or not. I don't think any ordinary user should even look at the list of upgrades by default. It's nice to be able to see it but it's not really necessary. Normal workflow is to see the window, and click on upgrade system or whatever. So this is very close to automatic upgrades, the only difference is to let the choice of the right moment to the users. . If you are on a pay-per-use Internet plan or a plan that places a cap on your usage, you can simply go in and turn off the automatic updates. No, we should not do something potentially harmful by default. What if an user does not know this and finds a 6000 euros internet bill at the end of the month? Sure that'll be experience but I don't think they will use linux anymore. Anything that may make automatic connections should require user authorization. How to make this seamless is a possible space for decision. I'm curious to know how update manager displays itself if the system needs to be rebooted after an update, and the user has already closed the window... I think it will open a separate popup. Regarding forking Ubuntu: Does anyone know if Mint has/will have this improvement? Mint has a completely different update manager, mostly focused on avoiding risky updates by giving a lower priority to core packages like the kernel. Strange, indeed, as typically these are the most urgent packages to upgrade from the point of view of security. However, the thesis here is that ordinary users can eventually do upgrades once in a release cycle. There's no need to explain that many do not share this view but it does not seem so likely that worms will affect linux desktop systems in the near future. V. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I'm totally against automatic updates as well. My house internet connection is too slow to handle any download and be usable for anything else at the same time. This happens many times with me on Windows. Furthermore, as was mentioned, sometimes an update requires the program to restart and in the meanwhile the program becomes useless. If someone is doing something critical and that happens, it would be a disaster. In my opinion automatic updates are worst than the popup. About the popup, I think if the developers think they need the popup, so be it. But please leave us the option of not having it. And for that I mean, at least, that one could simply turn off automatic update checking. For the moment this is not possible, I've tried and a popup appears saying you need to manually check for updates!. The only way to disable all popups is to uncheck all types of updates (security, recommended...) at the update manger. This has solved the problem for me, but now in my desktop I'm in a more laborious situation for updating than in the servers, in which no update is automatically applied but I do it when I want whithout having to reset update preferences every time. Anyway, I think this popup will have the effect of people updating less their software, and having the habit of disabling the updates the first thing on installing Ubuntu, at least I had to do that in all machines I install for other people, but probably the developers have a more well studied scenario. I hope this is not a security-freek idea only. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I use Linux Mint Live CDs on my hard-drive-less laptop when I need a portable computer for something with things like flash and other proprietary things pre-installed. I've been using it in this way for nearly a year. Just this week, though, I found out that the little Lock in the notification area was the updates icon. I never cared what was in the notification area because all I needed Mint for was the internet, so I pay no mind to the system status After realizing this, I've found out that MPT was right: I don't think that any icon will suit the notification area for a casual user. There is something that needs to be done. HOWEVER, I still don't agree that the pop-up is the necessary solution. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I am for automatic updates for security problems only be default. This is a sane default, that would suit most users. Of course there are specific uses (like a slow connection or high fees on downloads already cited) that would not like such behavior. However, this setting can be changed from the update-manager easily at install. As for the pop-up. I still think that the best solution that preserves the will to clean up the notification area is to use the indicator applet to queue the update notifications (instead of using the pop-ups, pop-unders). Something along the lines described by C Cooke in comment #345 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update- notifier/+bug/332945/comments/345). That idea plus a new icon for the indicator-applet when critical updates are available (like a red triangle with a exclamation mark in the middle) would be a very good start for me. If someone thinks that the user would disregard the warning icon, maybe use the idea of showing notifications at defined time intervals (every couple of hours for security updates or every login for normal updates) should do the trick. If the users wants to disregards such constants notifications then he/she will do the same with the pop-up/under. Oh, and probably the default icon for the indicator applet should change too, now it is a mail envelope because it is being used only for email notifications and chat requests, a more neutral icon would be nice (for example the application icon with a silver circle and the letter i in the middle). I am planning to send a message to the ayatana project with this proposal soon. As someone already said, there is the right place to discuss this bug. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Is it just me, or does this indicator applet sound more and more like a collapsible...notification area? It makes this whole excursion seem absurd, really -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
@Paulo J. S. Silva: I still don't think that default security update should be a default, because you just can't make the effects predictable and you may find out about it when it's too late... But I fully support the icon + a notifications saying click ... to update your system (just in case someone doesn't know about the icon). Pop-anywheres / lack of permanent information about the ready updates is simply insane. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I've created an entry on the Ubuntu Brainstorm site concerning this problem: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/20266/ I've done so because with that people can vote for something, thus providing some measurable feedback for the developers on what the average user is thinking, and not hear just the opinion of people like us that like to write stuff. I've posted three ideas there, and adding any other idea is of course very welcome. I think that place would be a better forum for this discussion. At least for me voting for something will feel good. I like voting. Given the controversy raised on this subject, it is not impossible that my post there is a duplicate and, if it is, I'm sorry, but I couldn't find any similar one. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I have just posted an email to Ayatana project mailing list with the proposal I described (once again) today: https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg00251.html In case someone missed. This proposal was already partially implemented by C. Cooke, see comment #345 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source /update-notifier/+bug/332945/comments/345) in this bug report. Let us see what follows... -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I have marked Leandro's Brainstorm Idea as a duplicate of: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/19283 Best Regards Lanoxx -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Matthew, Mark, (or anyone else from the design team) I'm interested to know where you are going with security updates long term in Ubuntu. The old behaviour was broken because it cluttered the notification area and most users didn't understand it etc. But the current behaviour is IMHO also broken. Now you bring up a window, with technical jargon that most users couldn't care less about, that interrupts the users flow much more than the notification area ever did. Why simply not update the system automatically? At least by default. It is not like users who won't do anything other than press Install Updates as soon as the window appears can't change this behaviour if they really want to. And I suspect a large part of the users that have technical know how to understand what the window says will most likely press Install Updates as soon as it appears also. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
@Martin: No - there are two problems with automatic [anything]: 1. I may be using the application that is being upgraded - and may cause it to crash / misbehave. 2. An automatic download at the wrong time might be very costly for the user. For example on my 3G connection it costs me the same to download the first 3GB of data in a month and to download every 60MB after that. That means any program starting an update at a random time, may end up costing me a lot of real money (without a warning). An openoffice update at a wrong time could really hit me. @Vincenzo Ciancia: ... the popup is not going away unless you make your own fork of ubuntu. Pidgin was forked for less annoying changes... With ubuntu it's even easier - a PPA with a fixed package is enough. If the option of going back to no-popup version is disabled in Karmic, I'm definitely making such package - I still consider the popup behaviour in whatever form to be broken / a bug. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Regarding automatic updates: I'm with Martin on this one; I believe it should be turned on by default. If you are on a pay-per-use Internet plan or a plan that places a cap on your usage, you can simply go in and turn off the automatic updates. After all, if Canonical is so concerned about the security of its users' installations that it feels the situation warrants interrupting the user with uncommanded popups, then having the system automatically update itself without user intervention should be right up its alley. I'm curious to know how update manager displays itself if the system needs to be rebooted after an update, and the user has already closed the window... Regarding forking Ubuntu: Does anyone know if Mint has/will have this improvement? -Original Message- From: Stanislaw Pitucha virap...@gmail.com Reply-to: Bug 332945 332...@bugs.launchpad.net To: brian...@att.net Subject: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 00:05:56 - @Martin: No - there are two problems with automatic [anything]: 1. I may be using the application that is being upgraded - and may cause it to crash / misbehave. 2. An automatic download at the wrong time might be very costly for the user. For example on my 3G connection it costs me the same to download the first 3GB of data in a month and to download every 60MB after that. That means any program starting an update at a random time, may end up costing me a lot of real money (without a warning). An openoffice update at a wrong time could really hit me. @Vincenzo Ciancia: ... the popup is not going away unless you make your own fork of ubuntu. Pidgin was forked for less annoying changes... With ubuntu it's even easier - a PPA with a fixed package is enough. If the option of going back to no-popup version is disabled in Karmic, I'm definitely making such package - I still consider the popup behaviour in whatever form to be broken / a bug. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Yeah this is really bad. I want the orange star back. And the new notification doesnt work either.I havent seen security updates pop up in a day and its been months since i even saw that notify osd tell me of any updates. Better to close this bug than just keep commenting on it and no one trying to revert back to old behaviour. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Chauncellor, LanoxxthShaddow: We are developing more consistent access points for the sort of programs people often want to be running in the background. The first example of this in 9.04 is the messaging menu, providing access to Evolution and Pidgin -- and soon other messaging clients too -- in a single menu. Chauncellor: Update Manager is minimizable regardless of how it opens. ddumont: Your premise is false -- Windows users did not decide[] that they liked a certain model of how the notification area should behave, Windows 95's designers did. And careful study of how Windows treats notification area icons from 2000, to XP, to Vista suggests that Microsoft designers have been trying to roll back their mistake. mb_webguy, ddumont: Many Ubuntu contributors, myself included, care very much about expanding the Ubuntu user base. In doing that, we do need to be bold and, yes, occasionally irritate existing users. It would be no good if we topped out at (for example) 20 million users because non- updated systems with orange stars or red triangles in the corner had given Ubuntu a reputation for bugginess and insecurity amongst the wider population. getut: I mentioned the click the icon issue only to explain why Notify OSD had forced us to make the update-notifier change now rather than later. We plan to simplify the design of the window for 9.10, to better explain why it has appeared and the decision users need to make. Rajeev Nair: This bug report has been closed for months. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
MPT.. so if I am hearing this right... popup/popunder is here to stay and there is no amount of griping in any fashion, organized or unorganized that can get that virus... erm feature removed going forward? -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
getut wrote: MPT.. so if I am hearing this right... popup/popunder is here to stay and there is no amount of griping in any fashion, organized or unorganized that can get that virus... erm feature removed going forward? sad to say that feature seems here to stay ! since mostly they dont have a reasonable replacement. and *to anyone* who is complaining here, its almost no use, mpt is *probably* the only dev still subscribed to this bug... if u really want your concerns heard to a larger *dev* audience, this is not the place... concerns *need* to be made at https://launchpad.net/~ayatana subscribe to this mailing list and voice your concerns... its no use here... -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Il giorno ven, 12/06/2009 alle 20.34 +, mac_v ha scritto: concerns *need* to be made at https://launchpad.net/~ayatana subscribe to this mailing list and voice your concerns... its no use here... Subscribe to that mailing list if you are interested in constructive discussion, not to express concern. In the current moment, as the intentions of the developers have been longly clarified, the popup is not going away unless you make your own fork of ubuntu. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
@Vincenzo Ciancia ^good catch, i realized i missed something :) -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Il giorno mer, 10/06/2009 alle 04.52 +, mb_webguy ha scritto: Ubuntu is likewise a free distribution, and so market share doesn't really figure into it. I think you didn't notice the hype around preinstalled ubuntu and OEM, which is where all this mess came from :) It is clear that marketing is a good part of ubuntu, and that all of us ubuntu guys around that install ubuntu to everyone are doing the campaign. What is unclear is how do we behave when our distribution begins to... ehm... suck and we have no powers to stop the distribution. I am not saying this is completely happening: all of us can discuss these problems on ayatana and my experience has been that the developers are very interested in feedback and suggestions from anyone. But the pop-up window is not going to disappear, unluckily. V. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
mb_webguy: Perhaps you should take a look at bug number 1 :). While Linux might not care, Ubuntu does. Really, I'm just scared to death of Gnome 2.30/3.0 modeling too much after Mac - meaning having nothing of real productive value in the GUI (good lord, if there's a dock, I swear I'll kill myself). If this happens, I believe for the first time I'll be considering switching over to KDE. I've always loved GNOME for the two+ years I've used it, and I'd hate for it to get spoiled. Don't get me wrong, I'm welcome to changes in GNOME, but if there isn't a good substitute for the notification area, which seems to be the ultimate victim, I'm afraid I wouldn't be the only one ditching it. I digress, though. ddumont, even though I agree with you, I feel that aggression won't get us anywhere. MPT knows that the majority of us hate it already. At this point in time, I'm just pleading for an option. Give us an option to keep the notification tray if we end up not liking the alternative presented, and please give us the option of having our updates showing up in there. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I know this is probably no consolation for a lot of us in the short term, but there IS an option here: Like any other free open-source software, source code for all of what makes up Gnome is available. If Gnome is taking a turn in an undesirable direction, there's no reason why Gnome can't fork. It's not like we're entirely powerless here. -Original Message- From: Chauncellor brettcornw...@gmail.com Reply-to: Bug 332945 332...@bugs.launchpad.net To: brian...@att.net Subject: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:22:25 - mb_webguy: Perhaps you should take a look at bug number 1 :). While Linux might not care, Ubuntu does. Really, I'm just scared to death of Gnome 2.30/3.0 modeling too much after Mac - meaning having nothing of real productive value in the GUI (good lord, if there's a dock, I swear I'll kill myself). If this happens, I believe for the first time I'll be considering switching over to KDE. I've always loved GNOME for the two+ years I've used it, and I'd hate for it to get spoiled. Don't get me wrong, I'm welcome to changes in GNOME, but if there isn't a good substitute for the notification area, which seems to be the ultimate victim, I'm afraid I wouldn't be the only one ditching it. I digress, though. ddumont, even though I agree with you, I feel that aggression won't get us anywhere. MPT knows that the majority of us hate it already. At this point in time, I'm just pleading for an option. Give us an option to keep the notification tray if we end up not liking the alternative presented, and please give us the option of having our updates showing up in there. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Devs, please provide information on this, what is the current status? Is there any talk whatsoever of getting rid of the popup/popunder? Is there any proper method for us users to request the removal of popups/popunders? Is there any hope at all of getting this fixed? MPT, I think you are purposely being a little misleading and purposely missing the point about the popups. You keep mentioning the click the button, what button thing. It isn't even the issue. The issue is the popup/popunder. Fix the notification area, do whatever you have to do, just don't start programs without the user initiating it. It is never a good idea. Please if you can provide some insight on why this was thought to be a good idea, please let us know... it may change our opinion and/or we may not see the big picture. What are we missing that devs think they have the right to interrupt the user? As I see it even security updates don't warrant that level of right now interruption. I have actually had users get confused wondering what they did to cause it to start up. I'm tired of explaining it to everyone. I install a LARGE number of Ubuntu machines. These popups are driving users crazy and they are driving me crazy. If the unsupported hack goes away in future versions, the popups/popunders are enough of an annoyance to actually be forced to REMOVE update-notifier or update-manager altogether. Blogs are popping up all over the place with top ten lists of programs to install and things to do. The hack is the first thing on almost all of them. Are the devs taking notice of this? NO ONE is expected to make good decisions all the time. Everyone thinks this decision was a stinker. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Really? So the majority of the PC users, and a good portion of the open source market decided that they liked a certain model... And you come and proclaim that they all have it wrong? Very bold of you, sir. I really don't icare/i what you think about the notification area... What I care about is how you guys remove long lasting, ubiquitous behavior to attempt change in the development environment without giving any of your users recourse but to GTFO or downgrade their installation. This is not good behavior for a company who wishes to continue to gain market share... you cannot apply this type of behavior at will to all areas of your distribution without SEVERELY pissing most of your userbase off. I just want an option. Let me put it back in the notification area, you have have yours pop under, and we'll both be happy. On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas m...@canonical.comwrote: Brian Burger: It's a fallacy to suggest that because something has been labelled the notification area it is necessarily good at presenting notifications. Our position is that it is not -- that Microsoft got it wrong in designing it, and Gnome got it wrong in copying Microsoft. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
