[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Disclaimer: inspired in GNOME, not Ubuntu. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Bottom-line: (https://plus.google.com/+AlbertoSalviaNovella/posts/eiTBoe3qEnL) -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
** Changed in: ubuntu Importance: Undecided => Wishlist -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Wow. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Comment on--> I think the report actually meant that the launcher should be movable to other edges of the screen. I'm afraid that won't work with our broader design goals, so we won't implement that. We want the launcher always close to the Ubuntu button. status wontfix == As users, we do not care about your broader design goals. We only care about if it convenient to use. If it is not, users will find something else instead. Nowadays, so many choices exist. so status wontfix --> status Ubuntu lost users --> status you lost your job DO NOT DELETE MY POST AS A DICTATOR! -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
I think the report actually meant that the launcher should be movable to other edges of the screen. I'm afraid that won't work with our broader design goals, so we won't implement that. We want the launcher always close to the Ubuntu button. status wontfix a basic function and make Ubuntu not customizable --> status fewer people use it --> status Ubuntu lost market --> status the company is shrinking --> status Mark get fired --> status lol! -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Well. Apparently this bug was partially fixed for 16.04 by Marco Trevisan, in a hidden way: http://news.softpedia.com/news/it-s-official-ubuntu-16-04-lts-now-lets- you-move-the-unity-launcher-to-bottom-501932.shtml https://plus.google.com/u/0/+MarcoTrevisan/posts/X46usgf7gSk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpOJJZFnv4s And it only took six years. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@obligat @iloveyou I couldn't agree more. The entire Ubuntu movement is suffering just because of a single stuborn man (@sabdfl). This foolishness is honestly something I simply couldn't have imagined happening in 2010. And to think the same terrible problem is still present after 5 years... Well goodbye logic. Mark Shuttleworth, if there's still a single grain of honesty in you claiming to belong to the Open Source Community, you will revert your mindless ignorance and get to fixing this bug -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
I love Ubuntu's global menu. Really. Combined with windows undecoration it's f_cking better then anything. Much more better then in a Mac. But I hate Ubuntu's nail-picked launcher. It's f_cking terrible. It's incompatible with using of multiple operative systems. No matter how Unity team make it super-efficient while it takes a bunch of time for adopt when you switch system. That all seems like a using horse-powered carriages nowadays when you can fly on mag-levs. This is f_cking infringement of autohiding bottom-panel lovers rights. Now I blew my mind for a thousand time and must leave. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Thanks Mike, that's very gracious. I know the Unity team care to make it super-efficient to use, with a minimum of movements and the best keybindings for pro's, and they'll appreciate your thoughtful comments. Mark -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
You missed one: Now it's clear how the launcher being on the left works across phone, tablet, PC and TV - Mark Shuttleworth, 2013-02-19 ;) *** The same UI on different devices is an epic fail. Different devices has different logic of handling. The tablet is usually without mouse, the PC not. I don't care to tapping left or right, but its important and conmfortable (useable at all) to clicking on the right side, because im right-handed. If you look back over the long history of the bug, you'll see that we're quite open to landing code which implements launcher movement. However, it needs to: * address the hard problems that raises (i.e. it needs to work properly for everyone, not just in a hacky way for some people) * be well written tested code Nobody, you'll note, has stepped up to do that work. Rather than insulting those who work on the project, you might want to consider, if the feature was really that important, someone would have stepped up to do it *properly*. This is not about feeding you vague disinformation. This is about knowing clearly what we care about and devoting precious time and resources to that. It would not be possible to get ANYTHING done if we weren't disciplined about that. It's not really possible to have a balanced conversation with anybody who has no appreciation for that. Now, it's very straightforward to use any number of docks - Cairo-DL and others - to achieve the effect you want. Do you think it's socially acceptable to go around demanding that others take care of your needs, when you're perfectly capable of achieving it for yourself? Grow up. Mark *** Sir! Why would i need use some redundant app on my PC? I hate trash, and the duplicated apps are trash. But the official/original launcher is so uncustomizable...since years. lol It would turn to don't touch distro? (like let me think... any else non linux-based so far?) Anyway i am not coder or developer, i'm just a man who is looking for an easy to use, reliable OS. It was formerly the Ubuntu. By the way i cancelled to use with unity years ago. Its nice, just slow to use and can't customize. I gave now another chance to get used to unity, but can't move the launcher---deleted the whole thing. I'm now either on gentoo, or on debian with MATE, and i am happy with that. Just sorry for official distro of ubuntu. peace and free Tibet! -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
I originally wrote comment #342 complaining to Mark about how this decision was not in line with the ideology of freedom in open source and went on to rant about how some engineers firends and I switched to centos or gentoo for some work related work because of the unity interface, blah, blah, blah but I have since thought about it and I want to offer my apology for complaining. I still enjoy using ubuntu very much. It is a stable high quality free open source operating system. I still use 12.04 at home on two machines and I love it. I can deal with the launchbar not being able to be moved and if i want it to be able to be moved badly enough then I should get the source and modify it and build a custom version for myself that allows that or use one of the other options available. Just wanted to say thank you Mark. Ubuntu is awesome. I personally would like to be able to move the launchbar but not being able to is a small price to pay for having such high quality in a foss os. I hereby retract my former complaints. Cheers, Mike -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
I've been using Unity for several years, until recently (after the last update, my machine wouldn't boot). Recently, I switched over to xubuntu, which is also an awesome distro. I've been thinking about this bug off and on for about two years in the process. Here are my thoughts... hopefully something useful is here: What's good about Unity: Overall I think the interface is very foward looking. Eventually: * users have thousands of apps installed (or not installed at all... apps are all in the cloud). And the line between installed, uninstalled, and cloud apps will be completely blurred. * eventally most interfaces will be touch-centric, or voice controlled * fuzzy search in Dash is a great idea Cons: * the interface currently has taken a one-size-fits-all approach on design. Like one-size-fits-all clothing, the result may be a less than perfect fit across many form factors How to improve it: The key to a universally adaptable interface is modularity. Think legos Fixed concepts in designe need to be both abstract and simple, like: * hot spots * gestures * panels Also, equally important, the interface must be completely theme-able. Can the components * change style? * move? * be nested? * be simplified for low-spec devices? The interface doesn't need a lightweight footprint, but is does it needs a _potential_ lightweight footprint to run on smaller devices. If an interface is not modular and easily customizable, phone makers will likely not use the default interface, like how Samsung uses their Smartwiz interface instead of the stock Android interface. The issue that moving a launcher bar from the left to the bottom is currently impossible demostrates a core weakness with the level of abstraction at which the interface is currently designed. It's not just a handful of end users who will want to move things around or customize the interface, but also device manufactures, developers, and businesses (with $$$) looking at using the interface for field use. As it is, the design seems to have some hardcoded assumptions: Edge Assumption: Why shoudl the interface assume there are four edges? This abstraction doesn't work for existing form factors. For example, for dual screen, there are 8 edges. For non-touch devices, there are zero edges.It also won't be true for a circular watch screen, where there's only 1 edge. Or google glasses (??? edges). Having four pre- defined edges is not a correct abstraction for existing or emerging form factors. Instead, the OS probably should simply allow N assignable hot spots that respond to gestures and control the visibility of panels. Potentially wasted space More importantly, for a cell phone and tablet, if I were making a device, I don't really want a sidebar of buttons. This is an extreme waste of space on a small screen. I'd want the launcher bar to be full screen of apps (3 to 4 columns of icons, across like the Android apps screen), not a single row of buttons. In this case, the left/bottom placement is completely moot -- the launcher bar probably should fill the entire screen on small devices. Dash - why is this not maximized by default also? The bottom and right of the screen is completely wasted space. I think the layout of netbook remix made better use of space. I'd probably move the tabs from bottom of Dash to top. Otherwise, when I click Dash, I have to move all the way to the bottom of the screen to pick the tab I want. Similarly I'd move filters from the right to left side. Otherwise, when I click Dash, I have to move all the way to the right to filter. Commonly used items should be placed in close proximity -- like items in a supermarket. Not in opposite edges of the screen, forcing large sweeping motions. Ideally, to appeal to device manufactures, this type of theme change should be as simple as editing a template file. Tabs vs Lenses: There are tabs at the bottom of Dash for music/videos/etc... but why are these tabs at bottom and not lenses? These concepts could be combined, where the lens could filter on app or file - do you execute it or open it? type(s) - music, video, games local/cloud - is this on the device, or in cloud? If there are tabs at the bottom, these should be configurable as a set of lens filters (such as local music files). Then, types should be added (by file extension). A business will want a tablet to search for a different set of files, not music and videos. In short, the degree to which any interface is not customizable/modular/themable is the degree to which it cannot be adopted as a universal interface. Particularly, Unity currently seems to be geared only for non-commercial uses, like for use on on a personal media tablet. For this to be a truly universal interface, something as simple as moving a bar from the left to bottom should
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@Mark Shuttleworth, @MarkShuttleworth, #MarkShuttleworth, sabdfl, mark@peregrine, mark@mark-XPS-15, however else I may get your attention sir :) Dear Mr. Shuttleworth, You have a great vision and when I first discovered Ubuntu at version 10.04 LTS, I loved it from the start because it embodied the notion that Free is as in Freedom. Myself and 3 other of my engineer friends who work professionally for a fortune 100 company were so happy with it we were introducing it into our organization and were about to bring it in to start to sit alongside RHEL, and then it seems you started thinking like Steve Jobs or something. The UNITY interface and its mandates like for instance very much this simple request to be able to move the taskbar around being denied turned us away from Ubuntu. Bye. We would have quite likely introduced your os into a large company that would have eventually paid you lots of money year after year for support etc. We are now using other flavors of linux which still embrace Free as in Freedom. Others if you are disappointed by this new mentality that Cannonical has so unfortunately seemingly taken on to be the Apple of open source, checkout alteratives like CENTOS, or gentoo or a host of others just as good and still more in line with Freedom. I am still running a 12.04 Ubuntu machine at home and I like it very much for playing around with but if ever there is a real OS to be considered for use in a situation that would generate revenue for Cannonical, IMHO, it has to get back to Free as in Freedom, and please start by allowing the user to simply move the launch bar wherever they want to put it for crying out loud. There is still time. There are so many more people than I think you realize that may be gone or leaving that you can win back with this simple change. Or not, it's your world boss. Regards, Mike -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
This relates to lack of hardware compositing/3D effects on older hardware .. I'm still using an ancient GeForce 5200 card (motherboard just refuses to quit). Shade/fade effects in 14.04 are exceedingly slow because I am assuming rendering is being done in software w/nouveau. With the nVidia binary drivers login works but the desktop never appears.. I stumbled on to the suggestion of installing Gnome Flashback w/metacity in another forum. ( http://askubuntu.com/questions/450555/very-slow-graphics-performance- after-upgrade-12-04-14-04 ) I wass pleasantly surprised to see the old gmome desktop restored, plus all of the benefits of the software from the new release. I will recommend this transition to anyone who is holding on to using old hardware. Workaround for old menus: sudo apt-get install gnome-panel Log out and choose Gnome (metacity) as the session type for the next log in ..FYI for good measure I had also removed a lot of the preference (.) files from my profile before I started the new window manager. Once I was running metacity I then installed the v173 nVidia binary drivers and am now back in business..another computer saved from landfill, plus a possible workaround for many old Windows XP computers that would otherwise get trashed. Thanks! -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
I am a new convert to Linux. I love Ubuntu but so far HATE this decision to force the dock to always be on the right side. This is a tension between logical semantics/convention (which is the argument Mark is making) and emotional preferences of taste. People simply have non-logical, emotionally driven differences in taste. Case in point - how many of us love lime green cars? Some of us hate that color - but some of us love it. How many prefer blond hair and blue eyes to brunette with dark eyes? Who here prefers metal to classical? You cannot argue one is 'better' than another - each individual has their own taste and own preference. Or rather, you can argue but it won't change people's minds and it has a very CS binary interpretation of how humans want their products to work. In the same way Mark is arguing about the semantic meaning of each side of the screen a metalhead could argue about the superiority of shredding to rhythmic guitar. At the end of the day, though, those logical arguments don't supersede my personal taste. I like what I like. I may understand you logical argument that the left side of the screen is for 'apps' but inside my chest I have this visceral reaction which keeps going 'this feels wrong'. There should have been a compromise here - on the desktop where there are already established conventions the option should be provided to move the dock to the bottom where many of us prefer it. On smaller devices (and less established conventions) the dock on the left wouldn't feel as incongruous. I am smart enough to figure out that a tablet UI is going to be slightly different from a desktop UI - in fact I demand it. Trying to 'unify' the conventions is a well intentioned mistake IMHO. Ubuntu is making the same mistake Microsoft did with Metro - they are trying to create a unified user interface for devices which by their nature shouldn't have the same input. Each of these form factors (pocket sized device, TV, tablet, desktop) have their own conventions/use cases/needs and their interfaces should reflect that. Trying to cram what works on one form factor to another is as incorrect as sticking a steering wheel on an airplane. You can make the logical arguments for a 'unified' interface system as much as you want, inside many of us who don't share your taste and eventually will move to another more expressive interface. It feels like SUCH a missed opportunity. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Merry solstice, folks! Since we're into festive season spirit I'll take time again to express what I think is the real challenge: we have built a converged UI across phone, tablet and desktop. If you're running Unity7 (i.e. the standard desktop in 14.04) you're running code which only expresses the desktop piece of that. We're busy adding desktop capabilities to Unity8 (there is quite a bit of community activity, for example, to get the Unity8 core apps to work well on desktops in this cycle). As a key part of convergence, we assigned some meaning to each edge of the screen. Doing so in a consistent way enables every user and every app developer to go much deeper because they know what to expect. In our case: * the left edge is all about apps and app switching * the right edge is an alt-tab and workspace switching * the top edge is for the system (notifications, settings) * the bottom edge is for the app In this world, it would be extremely difficult to even think about moving the launcher around. One MIGHT be able to toggle left-and-right edges, for example, for right-to-left languages like Arabic. But arbitrary placement of the pieces would not make sense at all. You COULD go an implement this capability in Unity7, yes. You could also choose to use Docky or one of the other excellent launchers for the desktop which exist in free software today; and you can do all of that on a fully supported Ubuntu system. Now, looking over this history of comments here, it's easy to predict that some people will say they don't care about convergence. I understand that, but I believe that in due course ALL desktop and laptop screens will have touch, and those same people will then care very much. So, since we have good free software options for movable-docks today, but we don't have good free software solutions for convergence of phone / tablet / PC, I'm doing what I believe is the right thing by funding that future. And so far, people who are participating in that community are having a good time, judging by their comments and contributions. More welcome! Again, wishing you all a happy holiday break, Mark -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Really appreciate your updating us on the vision. You're mistaken about the modularity of Unity7: it's impossible right now pick and chose components. Unity7 is an either-or affair: if you want to use Launchy, you will have to deal with the Unity Launcher still being on screen, which is of course unfeasible, which in turn is why for many of us posting had to switch, with sadness, to a different, less beautiful, less ergonomic desktop environment (Xfce for me). The last version of Unity that supported modularity was Unity2D, for which each component was its own executable launched at startup: thus easy to turn off the Launcher and run something else instead. It was great! I even wrote a guide for how to replace the Launcher. Now, that was a Unity I could use in my everyday work. (The component I most want to replace is the Dash, actually: I yearn for the simple functionality of Whisker Menu.) As far as I can tell, Unity 8 is also monolithic. *Unless* you, as SABDFL, decree that there should be a checkbox (even a hidden system setting) that allows individual Unity components to be turned off. To paraphrase Mao Zedong: Let 100 desktop configurations blossom! Also: I have to disagree about hardcoding user expectations -- I'm left-handed myself (also a right-to-left native language speaker!) -- and appreciate the ability to flip these things around. I hold my phone with my left hand, and things are always a bit more difficult for me than for others. Allowing users to assign any one functionality to any one edge would be best. I also think hardcoding developer expectations can end up shooting you in the foot -- what if some day you want to expand the Unity experience? Say, Unity running inside Oculus Rift with an entirely different UX? Would developers have to rewrite all apps for the new API? It's best to keep the API as generic *as possible* and not let developers program towards UI expectations, especially for things as ephemeral as screen locations. I wish you a delightful, troll-free holiday season! -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
On 23/12/13 16:52, Tal Liron wrote: You're mistaken about the modularity of Unity7: it's impossible right now pick and chose components. Unity7 is an either-or affair: if you want to use Launchy, you will have to deal with the Unity Launcher still being on screen, which is of course unfeasible, which in turn is why for many of us posting had to switch, with sadness, to a different, less beautiful, less ergonomic desktop environment (Xfce for me). The last version of Unity that supported modularity was Unity2D, for which each component was its own executable launched at startup: thus easy to turn off the Launcher and run something else instead. It was great! I even wrote a guide for how to replace the Launcher. Now, that was a Unity I could use in my everyday work. Would it help if we added simply the ability to turn off the launcher, so you could use a different component? That would seem to be a minimally invasive patch. As a hidden option (dconf) it would be fine. As far as I can tell, Unity 8 is also monolithic. *Unless* you, as SABDFL, decree that there should be a checkbox (even a hidden system setting) that allows individual Unity components to be turned off. To paraphrase Mao Zedong: Let 100 desktop configurations blossom! Ahem. Allegedly he said that to flush out dissenters, who were then treated not very well indeed. ;) But I know where you are coming from, and I think we do support that by supporting so many alternative desktop environments. I just don't believe we can deliver something amazing if we don't put it on rails; having spent nearly 20 years working with free software, I've seen endless shallow efforts that promised infinite customization, and I want to see what happens if we go deep instead. Also: I have to disagree about hardcoding user expectations -- I'm left-handed myself (also a right-to-left native language speaker!) -- and appreciate the ability to flip these things around. I hold my phone with my left hand, and things are always a bit more difficult for me than for others. I would support being able to flip the left-right edges for any language, but I would be opposed to arbitrary edge assignments, because a lot of the visual effects of transitions are optimal for vertical or horizontal movement and space. Given that I and others spend many hours every week on that tweaking and evaluating options, I don't believe we could do a good job of it if we didn't put ourselves on rails to some extent, and being on rails means you don't get to go offroading and snowmobiling unfortunately :) Allowing users to assign any one functionality to any one edge would be best. I'll be glad to be proven wrong but I'm not going to invest in that experiment based on first-hand data :) I also think hardcoding developer expectations can end up shooting you in the foot -- what if some day you want to expand the Unity experience? Say, Unity running inside Oculus Rift with an entirely different UX? We prototyped and sketched quite a few different form factors, and having a set of values to start from generally proved useful rather than a hindrance. * would you want to switch apps? if so, think about how to interpret left edge and right edge in this new form factor * would your apps want to have a zoom back for more experience? if so, think how to create a bottom edge experience * would you want to access things like settings and notifications? if so, think about what the top edge is in VR I hope you'd agree if you play with this in your mind that it's actually helpful to have some of the core ideas covered so you can focus on refinement of the experience. For example, the WAY you use the top edge on a phone is different to a PC. But the same stuff is *there*. I bet we will do just fine on VR and I would welcome contributions to get us there! Would developers have to rewrite all apps for the new API? It's best to keep the API as generic *as possible* and not let developers program towards UI expectations, especially for things as ephemeral as screen locations. Yes and no. It's a nightmare to have to consider every option including ones you can't imagine. I have yet to meet a very experienced and successful developer who thinks they can be successful at that. Better to be on rails. I wish you a delightful, troll-free holiday season! Thank you :) and to you too! Mark -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Thanks, Mark! Can't speak for everyone else here, but I think being able to use an alternative Launcher would provide a partial workaround for this bug, allowing for it to be closed as fixed. However, I still think it's important to allow the other components to be turned off (Dash and top Panel). I hope you won't be opposed to that. I see this simple feature (modularity) as a big advantage at very little cost to the Unity project. It will allow other creative developers to create alternative ways to using Unity. And who knows, you might really like some of these alternatives. It's great that you've prototyped various ideas -- but those were just the ideas your team came up with. The big world out there might offer something new and refreshing that none of us can foresee. And it will also allow us to implement a classic desktop remix of Unity: something would shut up all us whiners for good. ;) Remember, it's you that's been touting Ubuntu Phone as a truly open phone. Sure, people might write new skins for it to replace Unity, but having Unity itself be open would allow for potentially awesome remixes. Again, at trivial cost to the Unity project. You would be able to continue going deep with your vision. I know I'll be the first in line for a mobile device that I can plug into a big monitor and get a full desktop! -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@Mark Shuttleworth As stated before I would fund this change with £££ of allowing a Appearance setting that is optional (so, does not affect default approach) to allow the Launcher bar to be placed at the bottom of the screen or any side in fact. Please cost this change and we the community shall raise the money. Thus at this point it is you who is not stepping up! -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Dear Mark, Can there be a 180 degree switch? Moving most of what's on the left to the right (launcher, Ubuntu button, window controls) and vice-versa? Ubuntu and Unity are the result of an amazing effort millions of people have accompanied and contributed to over all these years. My deepest respect for that. Unity does fit very well into the new touch everything paradigm, that's taking over devices whether we want it or not. Still, on the desktop, there is one thing about Unity that makes the whole thing feel awkward. It's as if it was designed for left-handed users. I have seen this opinion quite some times online lately, and I can't help to agree. You just want to flip the desktop 180 degrees. Menus and launchers are not that frequently accessed in between launching and closing applications, and switching between windows. The human (right-handed) brain tends to perceive information on a screen from the top left corner in a Z-shaped path. So that corner, from a purely practical point of view, would be the most useful for a system/notification tray + clock. And keeping start and launcher on the right would feel more natural for right-handed people because they wouldn't need to jerk the cursor far left to switch apps, hitting the laptop/keyboard while doing it. I hope you would consider an integrated flipping solution to allow a degree of customization which wouldn't break the other wonderful thinks Ubuntu brings people. Thank you for your continuous effort to promote Linux. Kind regards, Psulo Fino -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
I still think that there is a market for a user friendly linux desktop AS WELL AS a market for a user friendly OS on portable/consumer devices, I don't blame Canonical for trying to make a profit to stay in business and trying to position for what it thinks will be the next big thing. In a lot of ways Ubuntu desktop is very easy to use, in a lot of ways they were sort of screwed over when the Gnome team decided to change their whole paradigm of what a desktop should be. Rather than design another as is window manager Ubuntu team apparently decided to take their own stab at a friendly UI. Personally I believe that the UI for phones and tablets should look very different from the UI for desktop PC's. I can understand apple and other vendors wanting to have a one size (and one codebase) fits all solution but the use for phones, tablets, TV and desktop really are for different purposes. There are plenty of other Linux distros out there that are extremely customizable, I still do point a few of my friends who are looking for a basic system that works and doesn't have to be customizable to Ubuntu 12.04 - as long as I think their hardware can support it. I have been using Linux since I downloaded boot and root floppies off of a BBS in 1994. Ok well, really using it since slackware was new. I gave up in the late 90's and early 2000's because every distro release seemed to break new and different fundamental driver functionality. Then I finally found Ubuntu - and way back on version 5 I was just amazed at this distro that not only worked on EVERY machine I threw at it (Including a Pentium II 450Mhz) but also was extremely intuitive to understand back before 3D compositing started to take ahold of everything. I really was pulling machines out of recycling or trash piles and giving them new life with Ubuntu. Both Canonical and the Ubuntu team have worked very hard and I wish them a lot of success, but the REASON I evangelized Ubuntu to start with was because it really WAS the dream linux that everyone was hoping for. Easy to use, wide compatibility. Everyone keeps saying that the PC is dead. More likely that vendors just can't make a profit off of it any more and they are looking for next big thing. Mark is right, its just hard for me to wrap my head around Unity on the desktop. I love Unity on my 7 netbook, but not so much on the desktop. Actually I really liked netbook remix on the 7 netbook - I guess Unity is combination of both desktop + netbook remix.. Anyway, thanks for listening. John On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Tal Liron 668...@bugs.launchpad.netwrote: @Adam You make some strange arguments here. FOSS philosophy has nothing to do with customization. It's about providing access to the source code. The Unity project is 100% FOSS (GPL/LGPLv3). Ubuntu's goals might be different from yours. You might want to have a desktop perfectly configured for your needs. The Ubuntu project is trying to make a free operating system for the masses. Mark is clear that in trying to achieve these goals he will 1) be taking bold risks, and 2) he will not meet everybody's needs. Time will tell if he's on the right path. I personally have many doubts, because when I've introduced Ubuntu and Unity to new people -- and I've done this a lot, in professional and personal contexts -- I've heard a lot of frustrations about its usability, configurability and stability. And so I've stopped recommending the regular Ubuntu, and instead recommend Xubuntu, which is *awesome*. But, maybe we got it all wrong and Mark got it right and Unity will make people flock to Ubuntu. Adam, you make a comparison to Apple: well, the Apple UI has proven itself very popular with the masses. So, maybe Mark (and GNOME) is on to something in trying to emulate their approach. To the Ubuntu project's *great* credit, it offers support (in terms of computing, bandwidth and other resources, if not personnel) to *several* different flavors. While GNOME 3 seems to have the same general goals as Unity, the others absolutely do not, and will likely better suit your personal needs. Xubuntu is still Ubuntu, with the excellent repositories, PPA, and the entire ecosystem. It is an excellent and free operating system. My problem, and it is central to this particular bug about making the Launcher movable, is not Unity's philosophy but the fact that it's essentially *broken* for certain setups, such as multimonitor and right- to-left setups. Unity should not be the default desktop, or at least it should have a big disclaimer up front that it is an experimental desktop interface, with an easy path (one click!) to let users install and use something that is proven to work. Actually, there is a second problem: Mark has made me not want to help the Unity project. He has alienated many long-time Ubuntu supporters by his abrupt closure of bugs like this, with little or misleading communication about the reasons. So,
Re: [Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 8:16 PM, Mark Shuttleworth 668...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote: On 02/20/2013 04:52 PM, Adam Porter wrote: On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:08 AM, Mark Shuttleworth 668...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote: if the feature was really that important, someone would have stepped up to do it *properly*. Properly as defined by you. You set the bar wherever you want, and if someone doesn't jump high enough, it's not good enough. You want us to use your software, but when we tell you your software isn't meeting our needs, you tell us to fix it ourselves. But then when someone does so, you say that he didn't do it properly. It isn't hard to read between the lines here. Just be honest and admit that you don't want the feature implemented. Just because we disagree is no call to suggest that I'm dishonest. I felt like you were being dishonest because I felt like you weren't being forthcoming with your reasoning. Here's how I'd frame it. I think it's highly unlikely that you can move the launcher to the right, top, or bottom of the screen without tripping over lots of other aspects of Unity. On the tablet, we use the bottom edge for app controls. Perhaps that won't turn out to be relevant for the desktop, but I think it's too soon to rule that out. And we use the right edge for the side stage, which will be on both tablet and desktop, so that's an awkwardness. 1. You admit that it currently is not relevant for the desktop, but you insist on NOT ALLOWING users to do this because you MIGHT later decide to use the edge for something else. 2. You think a potential awkwardness is reason to NOT ALLOW users to customize the UI to fit their needs. These two points illustrate a fundamental philosophical shift in the way Unity--and Ubuntu itself--is being developed. Mr. Shuttleworth, I could switch a few words around, replace Unity with iPhone and Ubuntu with iOS, and these would sound like Steve Jobs quotes. It should go without saying that Apple and iOS are by their very nature antithetical to the FOSS movement and the ideas of user freedom and users' control over their own systems and software. Yet this is the direction Unity--and, I fear, Ubuntu--is headed, and it is this direction which you champion. I am dumbfounded. You may have better insights than I. But I've not seen any coherent, complete articulation of how it would all fit. Just demands from the perspective of folk who are used to a particular workflow. That's fine - Ubuntu let's you achieve that with any number of third-party tools. That's great, use them, and we'll get along fine. You're presupposing that it all needs to fit--whatever that means to you. You're presupposing that your workflow is superior to that of these people who *want to use your software*, but find it frustrating to use because it doesn't fit their needs. And you don't seem to care that these real people who really have used your software find it unsuitable for their needs; you're more interested in studies carried out in artificial environments by researchers--that and your personal vision. Now, I like to be wrong, because that's when we learn. Show how it would all fit together, and I'll come around. How can we show that you are wrong when you are the judge? What is wrong in this situation anyway? If it fits in your opinion it's right, and if it doesn't fit it's wrong? What I think is wrong here is refusing to work with and support loyal followers who have evangelized and contributed to the project for years. What I think is wrong here is dogmatically marching to your vision to the extent that dissenters must conform or begone. What I think is wrong here is thinking that if you like something it's right, and if you don't like it it's wrong. When people were still using horses and carriages, they might have told Henry Ford that they wanted better buggies; but after people started driving cars, they would have told him that the seats were uncomfortable, and he would have listened. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@Adam You make some strange arguments here. FOSS philosophy has nothing to do with customization. It's about providing access to the source code. The Unity project is 100% FOSS (GPL/LGPLv3). Ubuntu's goals might be different from yours. You might want to have a desktop perfectly configured for your needs. The Ubuntu project is trying to make a free operating system for the masses. Mark is clear that in trying to achieve these goals he will 1) be taking bold risks, and 2) he will not meet everybody's needs. Time will tell if he's on the right path. I personally have many doubts, because when I've introduced Ubuntu and Unity to new people -- and I've done this a lot, in professional and personal contexts -- I've heard a lot of frustrations about its usability, configurability and stability. And so I've stopped recommending the regular Ubuntu, and instead recommend Xubuntu, which is *awesome*. But, maybe we got it all wrong and Mark got it right and Unity will make people flock to Ubuntu. Adam, you make a comparison to Apple: well, the Apple UI has proven itself very popular with the masses. So, maybe Mark (and GNOME) is on to something in trying to emulate their approach. To the Ubuntu project's *great* credit, it offers support (in terms of computing, bandwidth and other resources, if not personnel) to *several* different flavors. While GNOME 3 seems to have the same general goals as Unity, the others absolutely do not, and will likely better suit your personal needs. Xubuntu is still Ubuntu, with the excellent repositories, PPA, and the entire ecosystem. It is an excellent and free operating system. My problem, and it is central to this particular bug about making the Launcher movable, is not Unity's philosophy but the fact that it's essentially *broken* for certain setups, such as multimonitor and right- to-left setups. Unity should not be the default desktop, or at least it should have a big disclaimer up front that it is an experimental desktop interface, with an easy path (one click!) to let users install and use something that is proven to work. Actually, there is a second problem: Mark has made me not want to help the Unity project. He has alienated many long-time Ubuntu supporters by his abrupt closure of bugs like this, with little or misleading communication about the reasons. So, yeah, no way I will contribute my programming skills to it. But I do love Xfce and will do my best to open bugs, submit patches, and spread the love. :) -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Created an Account just to comment. I want to say, which I'm sure hasn't already been said before, but I want to express my concern for this vision that ubuntu has where it's abandoning it's following for a fixed/static image that is easier for developers. I am very disappointed in Ubuntu. I've love Ubuntu from 8.10 and thought it was very cool, intuitive, easy to use, something that I enjoyed using because I could customize it and do as I plz which I couldn't do in other operating systems. Now I feel that freedom has been taken away for what reason I do not know. I don't like the unity bar on the lefthand side. It's idiotic, non-intuitive, in-the-way, out of place, a disaster, as other have pointed out. I'm not sure if this can stand for something as simple as putting the launcher on a different side you guys really have stuck to this horrible idea of a vision and I hope you're happy. Because I really don't want to use Ubuntu anymore, because what made it so great before, has been lost somewhere and these decisions that are being made in spite of something are ridiculous and I don't want to be apart of it anymore. So thank you for the previous releases and good luck with your vision! -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
If you look back over the long history of the bug, you'll see that we're quite open to landing code which implements launcher movement. Mark So post #3 on this thread, (reproduced here below), is quite open...??? If multiple 'won't s' is open i would hate to see what closed looks like. I think the report actually meant that the launcher should be movable to other edges of the screen. I'm afraid that won't work with our broader design goals, so we won't implement that. We want the launcher always close to the Ubuntu button. status wontfix Mark -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Pavel Golikov (Paullo) worked hard and created a patch. His code is still available here: https://code.launchpad.net/~paullo612/unity/unityshell-rotated As to whether it was not good enough quality to be merged into Unity, well, nothing about that was updated in this bug. There may have been personal communications with Pavel which we were not privy to. The episode definitely dissuaded anybody from doing any further work on it. (I was personally working on a similar patch when Pavel made his public.) Actually, Mark did not call for patches, but suggested that we fork Unity instead. But that's not really what dissuaded us: as so many have pointed out, whenever Mark intervened in this bug it was to *discourage* us from fixing it. The bottom line seemed to be not quality or manpower (red herrings) but mysterious design goals. No amount of patching could fix those. :/ An executive decision was set that this simply won't be fixed. Mark, it's unfortunate that you always seem to take these things personally and think that it is a matter of not appreciating the work being done. In interviews, too, you always imply that we complainers just want some pet features fix and whine about it while not wanting to do the work. That's a caricature of what's going on. Some of us do indeed whine, but you are picking at these few examples as a straw target and ignoring the core criticisms: 1) the flippant rejection of this feature request, 2) the lack of a transparent explanation for the decision, and 3) the rejection of advice from long-time Ubuntu users and supporters -- critical as an ongoing mass of good will proliferating Ubuntu in the office and at home (and soon, on the go) -- in favor of a set of newbs participating in usability testing. It hurts, man. We've supported this project for years, and now we're being called children. One thing I agree with you strongly: everybody should read through the long history of this bug. It will remain as a monument, and hopefully a lesson to others, for how not engage your community of supporters. It created unfortunate ill will. Mark blames us, but the record is here and anyone can judge for themselves. It could have been so easy to do things differently: instead of won't fix, there could have been a call for people to submit patches to test the viability of a fix, even with a long-term timeline. This could have been a wonderful moment for community involvement, bringing more people into the project with enthusiasm and excitement. Anyway, the record is here. Thank you for your efforts. I and most people posting here deeply appreciate them, whether you believe it or not. You've done great things for free software, and I believe for freedom generally. I sincerely hope that your gamble on manic innovation at the cost of pleasing the long-term community of Ubuntu supporters will pay off in the long run, and will bring truly free software to the masses. That is a goal we all share. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:08 AM, Mark Shuttleworth 668...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote: if the feature was really that important, someone would have stepped up to do it *properly*. Properly as defined by you. You set the bar wherever you want, and if someone doesn't jump high enough, it's not good enough. You want us to use your software, but when we tell you your software isn't meeting our needs, you tell us to fix it ourselves. But then when someone does so, you say that he didn't do it properly. It isn't hard to read between the lines here. Just be honest and admit that you don't want the feature implemented. This is not about feeding you vague disinformation. This is about knowing clearly what we care about and devoting precious time and resources to that. Indeed, it's about whatever you say it's about, and anyone who disagrees doesn't know what it's about. An easy way to dismiss others' opinions. It's not really possible to have a balanced conversation with anybody who has no appreciation for that. So now it's not possible to have a balanced conversation with users. We couldn't possibly understand what you designers and developers and testers are doing. Just because we actually use the end result of your work doesn't mean we know anything about what it's like to use it. Do you think it's socially acceptable to go around demanding that others take care of your needs, when you're perfectly capable of achieving it for yourself? Do you think it's socially acceptable to go around dismissing the needs--you said it yourself, needs--of your users, and trying to distract, discourage, and deny their requests and attempts to meet those needs? How hypocritical to say that the users are perfectly capable of doing it themselves when you didn't accept the patch. Make up your mind! Either users are ignorant fools who don't know what they really need, or they are capable people who should go write their own software. You can't have it both ways when you speak in absolutes or generalizations. But if they are the latter, that is all the more reason to listen to them. Grow up. Mark I fear that this is the handwriting on the wall. When the SABDFL of the project tells his passionate, concerned, loyal users to, Grow up, it does not bode well. First they ignore you, then they ridicule you... -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
On 02/20/2013 04:52 PM, Adam Porter wrote: On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:08 AM, Mark Shuttleworth 668...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote: if the feature was really that important, someone would have stepped up to do it *properly*. Properly as defined by you. You set the bar wherever you want, and if someone doesn't jump high enough, it's not good enough. You want us to use your software, but when we tell you your software isn't meeting our needs, you tell us to fix it ourselves. But then when someone does so, you say that he didn't do it properly. It isn't hard to read between the lines here. Just be honest and admit that you don't want the feature implemented. Just because we disagree is no call to suggest that I'm dishonest. Here's how I'd frame it. I think it's highly unlikely that you can move the launcher to the right, top, or bottom of the screen without tripping over lots of other aspects of Unity. On the tablet, we use the bottom edge for app controls. Perhaps that won't turn out to be relevant for the desktop, but I think it's too soon to rule that out. And we use the right edge for the side stage, which will be on both tablet and desktop, so that's an awkwardness. You may have better insights than I. But I've not seen any coherent, complete articulation of how it would all fit. Just demands from the perspective of folk who are used to a particular workflow. That's fine - Ubuntu let's you achieve that with any number of third-party tools. That's great, use them, and we'll get along fine. Now, I like to be wrong, because that's when we learn. Show how it would all fit together, and I'll come around. Mark -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
If you look back over the long history of the bug, you'll see that we're quite open to landing code which implements launcher movement. However, it needs to: * address the hard problems that raises (i.e. it needs to work properly for everyone, not just in a hacky way for some people) * be well written tested code Nobody, you'll note, has stepped up to do that work. Rather than insulting those who work on the project, you might want to consider, if the feature was really that important, someone would have stepped up to do it *properly*. This is not about feeding you vague disinformation. This is about knowing clearly what we care about and devoting precious time and resources to that. It would not be possible to get ANYTHING done if we weren't disciplined about that. It's not really possible to have a balanced conversation with anybody who has no appreciation for that. Now, it's very straightforward to use any number of docks - Cairo-DL and others - to achieve the effect you want. Do you think it's socially acceptable to go around demanding that others take care of your needs, when you're perfectly capable of achieving it for yourself? Grow up. Mark -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
I'm afraid that won't work with our broader design goals, so we won't implement that. We want the launcher always close to the Ubuntu button. - Mark Shuttleworth, 2010-10-30 We should not inflict bad ideas on our users just because we’re curious or arrogant or stubborn or proud. - Mark Shuttleworth, 2008-12-22 -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
You missed one: Now it's clear how the launcher being on the left works across phone, tablet, PC and TV - Mark Shuttleworth, 2013-02-19 ;) -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Now it's clear that instead of being transparent the whole time and just telling the community why decisions were being made, we were fed vague explanations that made us feel disrespected and excluded from the process. -- The Community (well, me speaking for it... ;) Mark, nice of you to chime in, but too bad it's just to oddly pat yourself on the back -- you haven't really vindicated yourself by announcing that it works -- and have not answered the many very reasonable questions and comments in this very long bug report. (Yes, there are some shrill comments that deserve ignoring, but not the whole bug.) I guess we know the answer now: desktop users have had a bad idea inflicted on them because Canonical was aiming for a consistent experience across all devices. I guess it would be confusing if phone users would be able to switch around the use of the different edges. (Looking at the Ubuntu Phone videos, it already seems like it may take some learning to get used to the gestures and edges.) I guess the aim is for anyone to be able to pick up an Ubuntu device and expect the Launcher to be on the left. I guess managing this expectation, which is something of a branding issue as much as a usability issue, is more important than personal customizability. Just as phone users have come to expect that notifications are always at the top (on all OSes), Canonical hopes they will come to expect that the Launcher is on the left. OK, I kinda get all that, though I expect many phone/tablet users will disagree. (I own a Nexus 10, which has a very elongated aspect ratio. I expect that in portrait modem having the Launcher on the left will just take up too much real estate, and that I would want to -- but won't be able to -- put it on the top or bottom.) But this bug was opened for the desktop. I won't reiterate the many reasons that it's a bad idea to lock the Launcher to the left on the desktop, it's all in this bug. Community members have taken the time to carefully explain the issue at length. For me, the real bafflement of this long bug is not that it was summarily shut down, but how Mark and the Ubuntu team have responded to it. We were told about vague broader design goals, but weren't told exactly what Canonical was thinking about in terms phones and tablets. Of course, we know exactly why we weren't told this: desktop users would have *roasted* the Ubuntu team for sacrificing an essential desktop feature on the altar of the Ubuntu brand and managing user expectations on phones. So, I guess Mark was just thinking that he would be roasted either way, and preferred not to provide details. Well, he's earned his roasting fair and square now, and I hope to community will continue to dog him and Canonical on the quality of the desktop experience. Less baffling and more insulting were the red herrings we were tossed: lame, transparent excuses about having to have the Launcher integrated with the BFB, or complaints about how much work it would take to make the Launcher movable, or after that complaints about how much QA it would take -- after a community member tried to provide a patch that allowed movement. An insulting waste of time for all off us, when the real issue all along was Mark thinking about user expectations on the phone. It's like we're just this annoyance, and we're told anything at all to make us go away. We're not whining (as Mark calls it) because we want a pet feature for ourselves. We're sincerely worried about Ubuntu's ability to compete, succeed and conquer. And it's not just the Launcher issue, but also the meta-issue of listening to community concerns, treating us with respect, and especially treating our *informed opinions* with respect, informed through years of use of the operating system that you stapled together from thousands of free software projects. We use Ubuntu every day, at home and at our workplaces, across hundreds of desktops in the enterprise, thousands of VMs in the cloud. We know what we're talking about and you should listen to us. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
I'm afraid that won't work with our broader design goals, so we won't implement that. We want the launcher always close to the Ubuntu button. I disagree. Why couldn't the Ubuntu button be as mobile as the launcher? Is it not part of the launcher? At the very least Unity needs left and right handed desktops for touch panels. Being inflexible and ignoring issues like this is costing Ubuntu popularity. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Dear Mark Shuttleworth! Launcher is on the bad side. I mean the window decorations, the dash, the launcher (with ubuntu-logo, with dash-button, in current, but mirrored form) can be horizontal mirrored to the right side without bugs? In its current form is useless and uncomfortable to work across the screen. I am right-handed (most of people too), the mouse is on the right side of computer, the mouse-pointer is almost somewhere on the right side of screen, the scrollbars too, but the launcher, the dash, and everything is on the left.This is illogical, uncomfortable, slow to use, or useless. It is one solution for the unity haters just like me :) ) the basic useability and/or proposal to make this thing useful at all, not some useless eyecandy windows-like, or mac-osx-like solution :) You wanna in the future the launcher close to ubuntu-button? Make a horizontal mirror frome the whole thing, and let the user choose! Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl) wrote on 2010-12-11: #17 [...]the way we think it's going to be best for folks, and that explicitly precludes trying to fit everything that everyone wants into it Congratulations Sir! Perhaps more community attitudes please! Make a question, and READ the answer! Or read the proposals! Don't make I think it sholud be (must be) good to the people solutions. sincerely outtatime -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Please fix this! I like Ubuntu but these decisions are just as stupid as the answers to why it won't be fixed. And no, I don't accept the If you don't like it, don't use it-answer. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
After using unity since it's release (Not at first) I have to say I still don't like it, not 1 little bit. The way I have gotten around the problem is to make unity launcher small and auto hide and stalled CairoDock. It keeps it hidden and can still be used when needed, makes a good second launcher for those programs that are less used, keeping cairo for main progams. Hope this helps out. And it is not just that the unit launcher can't be moved it is sooo ugly... -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Hi there, I'm rather new to Ubuntu, having only installed it two days ago on a Samsung Chromebook. At first, I wasn't sure about it - coming from using macs for many years it felt mildly familiar, but just not quite there. After some customization (moving to the radiance theme, adding a brightness applet to the tool bar) I really started to enjoy the Ubuntu experience. With programs such as Chromium readily available, there was almost no reason to switch back to ChromeOS and I even found myself spending less and less time on my Mac desktop! It only took two days for me to want to move the launcher - I first tried to right click on it (my mac is showing...), to no avail. No problem, I thought to myself, I'll just change it in the system settings. Again, there was no option. I couldn't really understand it, so I did some googling. That's how I ended up here. That's how I discovered that the Ubuntu developers seem to be turning away from the demands of hundreds of their users. This smacks of big business. Not giving users the option reminds me too much of Windows and Mac, and that is far from a good thing in this case. Add my name to the list, but I think this small issue is an indicator of a far greater issue that goes deeper than surface-level aesthetics. For now, I'll be following this tutorial: http://www.webupd8.org/2011/11 /install-ubuntu-unity-bottom-launcher.html It's a shame that the folks at Canonical have not yet listened to their users. Free OS or not, we are the life-force of your daily toil, and we are fickle by nature. You have been warned many times now, allow me to add mine to the heaping pile of requests from people with one foot out of the door. So I haven't been using Ubuntu for years - I represent one of the most important demographics: new users. Without us, you're toast. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Add me to the many who want this bug fixed. Putting personal design goals or vision over user choice appears childish counterproductive. Maximizing user choice should always be Job One for ANY computer OS, open-source or otherwise. Concerns over difficulty for left-handed users or wasted screen-space on reorienting tablets alone should make fixing this a no-brainer - this kind of irrational inflexibility is exactly what drives new users away, either back to Mac/Windows or to alternative Linux systems. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Chalk another one up for the Ubuntu Hall of Shame. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The handwriting is on the wall. Debian keeps chugging along. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
And you know what, if I hear one more person talk about usability studies or user testing or research, I think I will throw up. We all know what Mark Twain said about statistics. Here we are, real people, reporting real problems, but we aren't relevant, because we aren't a statistic. I'd like to see someone do some research into this bug report and compile some statistics on user satisfaction! No one's even mentioned the presupposition that all these studies and testing and research are valid or accurate or useful! Someone boasted about unbiased users in their studies--what a crock. Canonical told the users what tasks to attempt, Canonical asked the questions, Canonical set the time limits, and Canonical chose the users (off the street!). How about doing a usability study with experienced users? How about doing a study on these new users after they've used Unity for a week or a month, and then asking them how they feel and what annoys them? How about doing a study on how many new users switch back to Windows? It's like doing market research on a new restaurant, and watching the customers as they walk in and find a table and look at the menu and order their meal--but ignoring their eating the food, going to the bathroom, paying the bill, and leaving, and not asking them if they want to ever come back. Nevermind all those angry customers who want to speak with the manager--they don't know what they REALLY want in a dining experience. The study shows that they are happy. And how dare Ubuntu treat its evangelists this way--people who have spent years working hard to promote Ubuntu to their friends, families, and colleagues all over the world. These real people come here and report real problems that they and their converts are encountering, and Canonical tells them that they are wrong, that Canonical knows what users really want. It really seems like the story of so many cults over the years: a leader attracts a great following, and his lieutenants recruit sergeants, and the sergeants recruit privates, and then the leader grows an ego. Then he listens to his ego more than his lieutenants, and the very people who were his most ardent, loyal supporters become disillusioned. His followers, still being loyal, speak their concerns, but they are told to submit and conform to the vision. They continue to stand up for the truth, but they are told to shape up or ship out. Hey, there are plenty more followers to take their place, and plenty more pagans to initiate, right? But the cancer grows and spreads, and eventually the community dies and disperses. The flame, which once burned brightly, consumed itself. The saddest part is that many of the rejects are so disillusioned that they never join another community again. They give up on the whole idea of progress and community and freedom, and they go back to the rat race, to being a robot who goes through the motions, suffering in silence the dull pains of mediocrity (Bug #1). Meanwhile, the rest of the world continues in relatively blissful ignorance, never knowing what could have been, never reaching their potential. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
I just want to express how angry I am on you Mark, and your Designers, to just remove these functions, so users can't move it anymore. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@Rickard: I almost feel it would be better to fork the Ubuntu project and make Unity more customizable than ever. It seems like the Ubuntu team has stopped listening to users. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Yes well there's that, but also how the gnome 3 team had also stopped listening to users -gnome had a perfectly usable desktop - the project succeeded...I guess they must've got bored..what is Ubuntu to do as a downstream consumer of the technology? After using Windows 8 I can see why ubuntu team chose unity - my only real complaint with it is that every time they come out with a new release I have to hold my breath and see if any of my hardware support stops working. That is why I am on mint xfce now, I don't really NEED a compositing window manager in order to do word processing and answer Email and the first thing I do after installing ubuntu is install restricted extras anyway. I am curious to try Enlightenment though, supposedly with new release they have developed their own compositing engine independent of OpenGL support. On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 3:51 PM, flyingfisch 668...@bugs.launchpad.netwrote: @Rickard: I almost feel it would be better to fork the Ubuntu project and make Unity more customizable than ever. It seems like the Ubuntu team has stopped listening to users. -- You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug report. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher Status in Ayatana Design: Won't Fix Status in Unity: Won't Fix Status in Ubuntu: Won't Fix Bug description: Please consider this a possible feature request or wishlist. Now when Unity will be default desktop for 11.04 could you please consider to add option to configure Unity launcher placement. Add simple option to lock/unlock through right-click menu and drag launcher to desired location like left/right and bottom. To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@Mark Shuttleworth I agree with having it on the left as default. We need a standard somewhere :) I do not agree that we cannot have it as a user selected option from the Appearance menu (just like the icon re-sizer that you eventually succumbed too but did not appear in the original unity) as an OOTB solution to dock it at the bottom. As this is a worthy enhancement to the platform (remember some tablets are used in Landscape mode :P). As we have seen with the unity-shellrotated unofficial customization tweak the demand is there. Especially as people are crying since it failed to work from 11.10. There is massive demand for this, real user community demand. And many others like myself do not want to use this or that dock. We love Unity, we want better Unity. Hey I should copyleft that Better Unity :P. But do not take our word for it, lets prove it to you. Why not let us the community sponsor this OTTB enhancement to Ubuntu. Yes cost this change for us and then its up to us to raise the money to accelerate the delivery of this enhancement that could live in the appearance menu as another nice option but not disrupt your overall strategy. I believe Ubuntu needs this for future proper tablet support (Nexus has the Launcher on the bottom you know :P). It will show the community has a say and power to even move the mighty Ubuntu team to make much requested changes. It will show open source pays after all and for changes users want, not draconian Vista implementations that users hate. Apparently humanity towards others is something we all aspire too here, lets show we are not Google and have not abandoned our core principals. Willing to let us prove it to you? What do you say? Game on? -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
My main office PC with an 8X AGP GeForce 5200 can no longer run Ubuntu as of 12.10. I actually started using 12.04 and used a combination of a Unity with Autohide turned on and minimum sensitivity + CairoDock GL - when I wanted the Unity menu I just pressed the SUPER key, otherwise I used the Cairo Dock icons on the bottom of the screen. I actually grew to like 12.04 but 12.10 seemed like a regression to me because it could not support my ancient video card. I could log on, the desktop would appear but no menus or panel...and no way to revert to Classic or 2D in 12.10. I switched to the XFCE version of MINT - the reason I stopped using LINUX several years ago is that every time a new release of my fav distro came out some sort of critical functionality that worked well in the previous release was all of the sudden broken. Iit's been 5 years without worrying about that feeling with Ubuntu, however 12.10 brought back the frustration. As far as I know there is no easy workaround other than buying a new video card and this machine just isn't that fancy.. Thanks for your hard work, Maybe some day I will try Ubuntu on a tablet or a TV (I am still a mythbuntu user) and it will make sense again. John On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 6:20 PM, Rickard 668...@bugs.launchpad.net wrote: @Mark Shuttleworth I agree with having it on the left as default. We need a standard somewhere :) I do not agree that we cannot have it as a user selected option from the Appearance menu (just like the icon re-sizer that you eventually succumbed too but did not appear in the original unity) as an OOTB solution to dock it at the bottom. As this is a worthy enhancement to the platform (remember some tablets are used in Landscape mode :P). As we have seen with the unity-shellrotated unofficial customization tweak the demand is there. Especially as people are crying since it failed to work from 11.10. There is massive demand for this, real user community demand. And many others like myself do not want to use this or that dock. We love Unity, we want better Unity. Hey I should copyleft that Better Unity :P. But do not take our word for it, lets prove it to you. Why not let us the community sponsor this OTTB enhancement to Ubuntu. Yes cost this change for us and then its up to us to raise the money to accelerate the delivery of this enhancement that could live in the appearance menu as another nice option but not disrupt your overall strategy. I believe Ubuntu needs this for future proper tablet support (Nexus has the Launcher on the bottom you know :P). It will show the community has a say and power to even move the mighty Ubuntu team to make much requested changes. It will show open source pays after all and for changes users want, not draconian Vista implementations that users hate. Apparently humanity towards others is something we all aspire too here, lets show we are not Google and have not abandoned our core principals. Willing to let us prove it to you? What do you say? Game on? -- You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug report. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher Status in Ayatana Design: Won't Fix Status in Unity: Won't Fix Status in Ubuntu: Won't Fix Bug description: Please consider this a possible feature request or wishlist. Now when Unity will be default desktop for 11.04 could you please consider to add option to configure Unity launcher placement. Add simple option to lock/unlock through right-click menu and drag launcher to desired location like left/right and bottom. To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Ironically, my finding the design decision to have the launcher on the left in Ubuntu encouraged me to move the taskbar on my Windows install there too (something I'd tried before with a smaller screened laptop that had 1280*800 as its native resolution, and quickly undid). It works great on a 1600*900 screen at least as far as I'm concerned. I noticed that my 12yo, who also dual-boots Ubuntu and Windows on a 16:9 ratio screen had done the same thing. If I were a subject, we'd definitely come out as a weighing on the side of the status quo here. But... of the two OSs mentioned here, why is Ubuntu the one where we'd just better like it, because it's not going to change if we don't? -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Cite from Mark Shuttleworth: I think the report actually meant that the launcher should be movable to other edges of the screen. I'm afraid that won't work with our broader design goals, so we won't implement that. We want the launcher always close to the Ubuntu button. @Mark Shuttleworth The design goals are fine if you only have ONE single display connceted to youir computer. Than it is absolutely acceptable to nail the launcher to the left side because it doesn't matter much if it is left or right - maybe in most cultures left woul be the best placement. Anyhow... In multi display setups it is a question of available space and layout of the displays, where the launcher makes sense. While i can agree that putting it top top or bottom is a bit retro, boring and not really ergonomic, having the ability to putting it to the right side seems to be really useful. Also RTL-Cultures would love it beeing able to move the launcher to the right side - even on a single monitor system. So i kindly ask you to rethink your standpoint. I cannot see any negative impact to the design goals if users are able to choose whether the launcher is on the left or the right side of the screen. I hope that canonical can be a bit less dogmatic and a bit more pragmatic. Users demand the ability to move the launcher - so why not making such a small compromise which may give many people a even better feeling using Unity. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@Axel Napolitano I think this plea from you is the most succinct summary we've seen of the attitude problem: I hope that canonical can be a bit less dogmatic and a bit more pragmatic. A quick update: Issac Joseph has created a project called Unity Revamped which seems to address some of these pragmatic concerns (though it doesn't incorporate the movable-Launcher patch): https://launchpad.net/~ikarosdev https://launchpad.net/~ikarosdev/+archive/unity-revamped As I mentioned before, forks of Unity are not great solutions: the burden is on the dev to keep merging in the mainline code and testing it thoroughly before each release. I find it unfeasible in the long run, unless the Unity team itself incorporates these enhanced versions into their main dev/test process. Mark's comment about celebrating forks is thus a bit glib -- and non-pragammatic. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@Tal Liron I agree with you. Forking is not really a good solution to address such kind of problems. In this case simply because of the fact, that it is not official canonical software and therefore not part of the canonical maintained packages. Anyhow it was a matter of time until someone decides to do his hown thing to get more flexibility. And of course i don't understand the standpoint of Mark Shuttleworth - may be because a lack of information: He talks about broader design goals. Well... They are not in general affected if you permit users to move the launcher at least from the left to the right. On the other side celebrating forks seems to be a bit strange in that case: There's a strategy behind Unity and a roadmap too - so why risking that the world say's no the official unity switching to a fork - no matter how good it is? That could have negative impact on the design goals as well as on the Unity strategy at all. I really like Unity but i would love it, if *i* can decide whether the launcher appears on my screen. So much freedom should be possible and part of any design goal. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@IKT - why? they seem to be doing quite a good job in many cases and are popular for a reason. Throwing away opinions because they mention some company you don't like is a no no - in my opinion. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
they seem to be doing quite a good job in many cases They're not, the windows ui is HORRIBLE, take a look a the control panel for that mess, have you ever had to actually support people doing things with it? and are popular for a reason. That's a fallacy, known as argumtum ad populum, by the same standard all high quality restaurants should coat everything in grease and fat and oil because hey, McDonalds is popular therefore it is good thing to do. http://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2007/06/product-loyalty-consumers- mistake-familiarity-with-superiority/ This is not a race to the bottom, also what happened to open source, is there really no one out there who has the skills to move the icons from one side of the screen to the other? -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Even friggn micorsoft allows quoting microsoft on user interface design is a no no. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Why has this not been resolved yet? Having the unity launcher on the left is unacceptable in multiple situations and saying won't fix without providing a very good clear reason beyond It doesn't fit in our border design goals is unacceptable. What design goal could possibly warrant not being able to move the launcher to which ever edge of screen a user requires it on. Even friggn micorsoft allows users to decided where the taskbar is placed because they understand people have different requirements and needs. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Perhaps this bug report doesn't describe a technical problem, as much as it points to what politicians might call a messaging issue. Some people love the old interface and thought it was perfect. That means it's impossible to change it, because there's no way to improve on perfection. Two possible remedies: If the classic gnome-panel is still relatively bug free, I wonder if some of the complaints could be avoided if there was a prominent option to install this package for a classic desktop. Like a link to the package in the settings panel, or a popup message that shows clickable pictures of alternate desktop themes (even as simple as an HTML page). For at least six months, I was under the impression that the classic destop was gone for good. :) I just noticed it showing up after I tested out gnome 3. Secondly, perhaps there could be a meta package that installs AWN (or dockey, ) and pre-configures it so it looks like a bottom bar. For the end-user, I do not think there are clear instructions on doing this aside from using Google for a half-hour and accidently stumbling on the information, to even become aware of the option. After trying out various options, many people who are on the fence or not happy about a change may come to the conclusion that a new interface is easier to use. Though this is not necessarily a wasted communication effort. What is different is how people *feel* about a conclusion -- whether they feel they came to agree with a point of view, or whether they feel they had little choice in a matter. The second route triggers deep rooted hostile instincts in humans. :) Also I'd suggest another launchpad label beside won't fix. The word won't has very negative connotations, suggesting inflexibilty. Many comments have read this as won't listen. A better label would convey the thought that it's is deemed costly or breaks other functionality or packages. Like requesting 3rd party solution, assigned to open source solution, assigned to bounty, requires budget, etc. In other words consider the difference in the two messages: We aren't going to do this versus Sorry, we will need your help in adding this feature. It's currently out of the scope. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
This is quite annoying when you work on a monitor with a portrait orientation. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
So, with Unity 5 officially out with Ubuntu 12.04, I thought I'd test its multi-monitor support. The good news is that it is no longer totally broken. The ability to put a Launcher on each monitor *is* a solution. The option to have the Launcher only on the primary monitor (called laptop mode, for some reason) is also great for people who happen to have their primary monitor on the left, but that option always existed. There is some bad news, too. This solution is mind-boggingly awkward: 1) Waste of space! Why do I need multiple Launchers when I have one clear primary monitor? 2) Distracting! When I have an alert (wiggle), it appears on *all* Launchers. I never know quite where to look. It's like my whole setup is demanding attention from me at once. 3) Gets in the way! The default is for the mouse pointer to delay a bit on the Launcher, to make it easier for you not to miss it when you need to access it. When the Launcher is on the left side of the screen of your right-most monitor ... this is an exercise in futility. Every time I move the mouse between monitors, it seems to stick on that middle Launcher. After trying this for a day (I wanted to give Unity UX developers the benefit of the doubt), I felt like poking a stick in my eye. The whole point of having multiple monitors is for working easily with windows on all of them. But if my mouse pointer keeps sticking in the middle, this is anything but smooth. I quickly entered CCSM and disabled this heurstic (thanks for letting me!). The final judgment is this: 1) thanks for finally thinking about multi- monitor solutions, but 2) your solution is so unbelievably awkward. It seems like you would go to any bizarre lengths just to not let users decide where the best location for the Launcher in their setup would be. Lurking behind this is the fact that testing this solution with its heuristic must be incredibly difficult: you have to test both appears on all monitors and laptop (?) mode. And didn't you say that the whole reason you don't want to support a movable Launcher is that it would involve too many testing scenarios? (Well, after you said that the whole reason is that it doesn't fit your vision). It's high time we got some straight answers on this, instead of excuses. It would be even nicer to hear from the UX developers that their approach might have been wrong. But I'm not holding my breath: we live in an a bizarre era in which UX developers are given full executive power, and they're enjoying this ego-fest to the max. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
If the launcher is not to be moved, I can envision a few other ways of resolving the issue of highly annoying accidental invocations: 1) Go back to using the corner to activate the launcher. Given how a few icons will be on the lower part of the screen, having to travel to the top and then to the bottom is tiresome. So both left corners could be used. Leaving the decision to the user would be best, though. That way some could use the bottom left, some the upper, depending on their particular habits, and optionally conditioned to a click. The click is sometimes desirable because Ubuntu places Windows icons on the left and it's fairly easy to overshoot them. A click would be preferable to any other measure (force, time spent at the corner etc) because it's both less likely to happen accidentaly and faster. Seems much easier to implement than allowing the launcher to be moved. 2) Having a manual hide option for the launcher. Here's how it could work: an icon, not much different than that of a regular app, would sit on the launcher. When clicked, the launcher would be completely hidden, except for a little indicator that would sit on the left edge of the screen, placed exactly where the hiding icon was in regards to the Y axis, where it would wait for a click to bring back the launcher. Very easily discoverable. And, as the icon itself could be moved, people would be free to place it wherever they found more comfortable. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Here is something that might help some left-handers: install the CompizConfig settings manager, and set the launch reveal to one of the corners, say the top-left. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
I use my Lenovo tablet computer for teaching and for presentations at conferences. I am left-handed, and especially with the tablet, it is useful to have scroll bars on the left. However, this means that often when reaching for the scroll bar the launcher comes out of hiding, which is quite annoying over time. I have a smallish screen, so I definitely want to to keep the launcher hidden when I can. So yes, an unconfigurable launcher is a form of discrimination against left- handers. Please reconsider. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Given the 290 comments before me, I realize I won't be adding anything new, but I wanted to share my frustration anyway, just to point out how annoying this is to a lot of people by pure volume of complaints. I have been using the unity-rotate plugin a while, but it has severe limitations, such as it only works in 3D and doesn't support 12.04. Why don't you believe in the freedom to choose? There's so many options with Ubuntu to choose how you want your desktop, E.G using KDE or something completely different. This tiny option, which affect so many peoples experience with Ubuntu as a whole should be configurable. Who are you to decide that my 90 degrees tilted widescreen obviously must have the launcher at the side? One size fits all, simply doesn't fit all. Setups differ, hardware differ - what makes sense on your setup, doesn't have to make sense elsewhere. Why don't you allow Windows users to have a tiny piece of familiar environment in Ubuntu? Coming from Windows to Ubuntu, or switching back and forth between Windows and Ubuntu (E.G virtualized) comes with a certain set of 'trained'/'built-in' mouse movements, such as 'drag to the lower left' which always hits start menu. In Unity, with the same logic, you close whatever window on top that is maximized when pulling to the upper left corner! Why mess with peoples heads? Most people have brains that are wired to read in a horizontal line. This skill is continuously improved while reading text. Getting an overview of running applications if you don't already have a mental image of this (which is the default, when launcher is hidden), you need to move your eyes down the line of the launcher - again inefficient and frustrating. - FRUSTRATED USER - -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@Renato Silva: what you describe has nothing to do with the movement of the Unity launcher. What you describe has got to do with launcher sensitivity, something you will be able to control via System Settings in 12.04 LTS. Moving the launcher would solve the problem, naturally, but isn't the cause of it. On 04/02/2012 09:15 PM, Renato Silva wrote: Won't Fix a simple positioning setting to fix ridiculous wrong clicks when you try to access application items on the left? There are usually more clickable items on the left (back button in Firefox, window buttons, first application menu etc) than on the right or bottom. It's just sane to allow the users to have the launcher on a different position, current design is ridiculous. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Won't Fix a simple positioning setting to fix ridiculous wrong clicks when you try to access application items on the left? There are usually more clickable items on the left (back button in Firefox, window buttons, first application menu etc) than on the right or bottom. It's just sane to allow the users to have the launcher on a different position, current design is ridiculous. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
I dislike the left sidebar but have to tolerate this because the launcher is unmovable by your initial design. The reason you gave me is: 1)The integration between the Top Bar, the BFB , the Dash and Launcher. 2)At the moment it's important that Unity get stabilisation work during the next cycle, and making the main design and code-path solid is the priority. The design team doesn't have time to work on this. As for the reason 1, it's your design flaw. The movement of unity is important for us users. There is no reason to fix the location of launcher by design since we can do the movement in OSX and windows. If the movement of launcher will break the integration of BFB,Top Bar,the Dash and other components ,then it must be your design's flaw and you need to improve it. Users just want to partially customize the laucher but the behavior is forbidden since it may break the developer's design,is this something called usability? Who on earth are the real users and on behalf of most of common users? You should to meet with common users' tastes in most cases and do your best to avoid this compromise to break your some other good designs meanwhile. Nevertheless, it's your design's flaws of unmovable unity launcher,don't try to pass the buck to users. As for the reason 2, you are right. However,I am willing to wait for your patches in the near future cause i love ubuntu and unity. I'm reluctant to choose other distros or DEs. Unity just needs some improvements rather than radical overhaul for me to live with it.Maybe it will be a proper time to fix the problem after the ubuntu 12.04 LTS released. Pardon my poor english and humble opinion. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
this is wrong mister mark.. if you are so sure that you are a visionaire, let the ppl the option to CHOOSE either your way, or their way..what do you have to loose anyway.. its not like you are not a genius and everybody would choose the layout you try to impose anyway... this is pure arrogance, and i have seen far more inteligent business gone dead due to this.. the unity bar MUST be movable, this is not something that mister mark decides... how about inventing the one-button mouse? this is something new, no os works this way! lets do it! ps: i cant believe that no sane person observed in the past 2 years the very rapid decline of ubuntu market share.. there must have been some ringed bells out there, someone must have realized that this approach we do it our way, you dont like it then gtfo and install another distro is utterly wrong.. well, the community is leaving fast, you may keep your unity bar fixed on the left side :) -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Any chance of this being reopened, please? I have become very productive over the years using a dock located at the bottom of the screen both in Ubuntu and OSX. With Unity the screen just feels far too heavily 'weighted' towards the left which results in my mouse behaviour feeling 'unnateral' when accessing the menu. Why not add the open to change the launcher position? Would this really be such a bad thing to do? -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
I'm sorry, but talking about sheer, childish stubborness after a member of the design team took the trouble of answering our questions and giving us the reasons for the current state of the launcher is IMO dishonest and just plain offensive and disrespectful both to the design team as to the users who gave resonable arguments in this report for a movable launcher. We should strive for a harmonic relationship between all the members of this community and refrain from making such accusations. This is not helping this discussion in any way. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@Danillo What about respect for us? What about the trouble, time and effort so many members of the community have put into commenting on this bug report? What about the years of effort we put into promoting Ubuntu in our workspaces, and among families and friends? Nobody has come out to thank us. On the contrary, we've been called nags and nuisances. Wors,t we've been told quite clearly that we just don't count: Ubuntu is designed for future users, and the usability tests are done on non- Ubuntu users. So, yeah, thanks for all the help, community, in getting Ubuntu up and running for the first few years! But, apparently, we're not so welcome anymore. Furthermore, I have to disagree with your evaluation of the arguments provided for closing this bug as reasonable. They have been shifty, contradictory, defensive, and - most importantly - opaque. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@Danillo (and @all who want a summary of the whole discussion) Concerning sheer, childish stubborness 1) comment 2# told us already the bug won't fix - there was no explanation besides saying it is a design decision 2) comment #13 stated they will explore an RTL decision (after it was pointed out that the launcher, in the current implementation) could create inconvenience for RTL users --- nothing has been done about that up to now. It was stated that they are working on it but (to be nasty) they were working on windicators as well --- even if they come up with an RTL solution in the near future, you can say that this whole issue could haven been avoided if the launcher had been created with (at least) an OPTION to make it movable (this is called BAD design) --- thus, WE pointed out the design issues very early, but they never did do anything about it --- now, look at the MultiMonitor solution (which is no solution at all, just utter crap) 3) in comment #17 the statement was simply spoken go away and fork or use Docky/Awn if you want to change anything, because we do not want the design to be changeable. --- were was the sentence it is open source and you can provide a PATCH to solve the issue --- instead it was directly stated that they do not want any patches. If you want changes, then FORK it. --- Where is the inclusion of the community in this statement? I only see exclusion! 4) comment #47 is the first of many more written by different users, where it is said that the number of votes (at that time around 40 votes if I remember correctly) are only representative for the number of people without any access to launchpad. It was stated that there are many more people, known by the posters of the comments here, who also have a problem with a non-movable launcher. --- This was more or less ignored. 5) Comment #51 referred explicitly to the MultiMonitor issue. --- there was a chance to rethink the design until the precise release. --- the comment was about one year before the Precise Release 6) comment #61 is Tal's first involvement with this bug and the confirmation of the MultiMonitor issue (under which I suffer as well, btw.). Furthermore a very understandable question of the validity of the stubborn won't fix position --- one could state that the developer and designer side displayed some sheer, childish stubborness before the community side brought this up 7) comment #62 is a comment written by me. I just wanted to point out that one should not mix up Smartphone and TV OS design with that of a PC desktop. Where is the problem of having the options integrated in the code? A TV/Smartphone manufacturer will certainly not ship an OS which offers all the available option of the used OS to drive his devices, but a desktop user, on the other hand, might just want a little bit more comfort 8) what follows are: --- many discussions about the validity of the usability studies conducted on the design --- the community feeling disregarded because seemingly legacy behaviour and users of older Ubuntu version were not included in the design concept (despite the fact that these old USERS and COMMUNITY members made Ubuntu popular) --- the question why the launcher cannot be moved even though the BFB is a part of the launcher, now --- the comment that there is no manpower to change it at the moment a comment (by an Ubuntu developer that the launcher might be made movable after Precise) a fast comment by Mark Shuttleworth stating that this is not true and that the launcher will NEVER be movable again no explanation what the NEW reason for this decision was no new reason was given, despite the fact that nobody wanted the launcher to be movable for precise, we just wanted the idea to be implemented some time in the future --- again no discussion about the idea to offer the community to create a patch and integrate it into Unity --- a patch by a user who is currently working on a movable launcher --- again there is not comment on this by the official side --- after uproar that there is no comment, we get the answer that the design decision is won't fix and the developers lack manpower they have manpower to create a launcher which appears on every screen in a multi-monitor environment they had the manpower to create their own (Unity) desktop shell they did not think about manpower when talking about the original design of the launcher X) BTW: there was a comment of Mark elsewhere (blog, interview?) about two bugs which are really a pain in his ass because of the stubbornness of a small group who fight for it. I suppose he meant this bug and the minimize/maximize issue discussed elsewhere --- thanks, I am feeling very famous at the moment --- I better do not write what I really think about such a comment, be it written on a personal blog, or given in a public interview Z) I saw the new Ubuntu TV design: good work.
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@SRoesgen Wow. And to think that all this work (on both sides) could have have been spent on: 1) working with Pavel Golikov to get his patch accepted, with it being released on the dev PPA; and 2) testing and reporting real bugs by the community to get the movable Launcher feature to full quality. Actually, scratch that. I'm confident it would have taken *less* time and effort. When did Ubuntu become such a bloated, irrational, inefficient corporate machine? -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Wow that's a long thread. I would like to support the request to make the Launchpad moveable - I wish to place it at the bottom of the screen. The reason is I was smashed up in a traffic accident over two years ago, and as a result my eyesight and hand coordination don't work like they useta. The location on the left hand side means that I always make the Launchpad appear when I am trying to hit the 'back' button in my web browser (with subsequent delay), amongst many other things. I've thought about it and if I could move it to the bottom, it would be out of harm's way. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@Tal Yep, too much time discussing (although i won't call discussing when most of the comments are from the stubborn small group and not from Canonical), time which could have been spent testing Pavel Golikov patch. Would have been included, i'd be just adding my two cents testing the patch to found possible bugs. Canonical excuses about bottom launcher would be buggy is just ridiculous when you look how buggy are some applications included in the standard unity desktop in 11.10 (nautilus, empathy, ibus, if you need names). About manpower... of course, there are more important things like Ubuntu TV... *sigh* In fact, i'm using Precise with Unity as my desktop, and sending bug reports for all the segmentation faults i found. I just wonder why i care helping to debug Ubuntu, when Ubuntu doesn't care about us. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@David I've seen enough free software projects come and go in my day such that 1) I have a good sense of when leadership problems are endemic, as in Unity, and 2) I have an appreciation for the messy diversity of people involved in any given project. The combination of these two contradictory factors means that nothing is truly endemic, and a year later everything might change, either for the better or for the worse. This gives lots of reasons for hope, and also a general anxiety about free software. I lot of us were hoping that Canonical would lessen some of these anxieties, but in fact Canonical is managing Ubuntu true to the spirit of free software. Compare, for example, with Android, which is free software but managed as proprietary: once in a few months, Google dumps out some source code and that's that. So when Mark talks proudly of his commitment to community, he's entirely right to, from his perspective. My criticism is very specific, about his inability to go the extra mile towards engagement with the *user community*, not just the insider developers. The failure is collective for Unity project, and not just his, but he insists always on taking final responsibility, so there it is. I remain optimistic: Ubuntu is going through a rough patch now, due to its high ambitions and refreshingly bold approach, which presents challenges rarely seen in free software projects. The Unity project, in particular, is not handling these challenges very well, but it might get better. People will come and go, the tone may change, and in a year we might get a decision from the inside that Unity should be far more customizable. (I've predicted before that they'll *have* to make that decision.) So, David, don't think that all Ubuntu doesn't care about you. Many other projects under the Ubuntu umbrella are doing a great job, due to the particular people leading them. I'm going to continue promiting Ubuntu, but I'll also be very clear about Unity's limitations, and promote alternative desktops. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@Tal Liron It's just sheer, childish stubborness at this point. All of the reasons provided for the won't fix on this bug (and let's remember: those kept changing) turned out to be excuses. They decided not to make the Launcher movable, and they're going to stick to that decision whatever the cost, because they're too proud. I fully agree with you. As I said before (and thus I repeat myself now, too): it would be nice to hear at least an official statement that the people who made the design decisions made some very bad decisions concerning the launcher and that the will consider solving the issue by thinking about a movable launcher after Precise. But saying we lack manpower is not an excuse at all if the development team rejects the idea of a movable launcher entirely. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@Tal Liron he remaining option is that I break the walls in my office and staple my desk to the ceiling so that I can make sure that the leftmost monitor is my primary monitor, because that's the only configuration Unity supports. :/ Funny as your comment is, I am afraid that it is not true anymore. In Precise there seemingly won't be any primary monitor. The launcher will appear on every screen. Not that I like this solution more than the old one (and I commented on this crap solution before), but one might say that this solves at least the primary monitor issue. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@SRoesgen Sigh. I said it before, but it's worth repeating (isn't this whole bug report about repitition? from both sides?) -- it's astounding that after all the hand-wringing about the lack of manpower available to enable a movable Launcher, the proposed solution for multi-monitor support is an order of magnitude more complicated and bug-prone. It's just sheer, childish stubborness at this point. All of the reasons provided for the won't fix on this bug (and let's remember: those kept changing) turned out to be excuses. They decided not to make the Launcher movable, and they're going to stick to that decision whatever the cost, because they're too proud. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
In my ongoing quest to find a solution for the brokenness Unity causes in my multimonitor setup -- without throwing *all* of Unity out the window -- I've been exploring LXDE and liking it a whole lot. For those who would like to try it, I wrote a guide: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=11592793 It's so lean and mean! A refreshing change from the bloat (XFCE is nice, but it's not as small as you might think). The remaining option is that I break the walls in my office and staple my desk to the ceiling so that I can make sure that the leftmost monitor is my primary monitor, because that's the only configuration Unity supports. :/ -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@Danillo: I get your point. Now that I understand that the current version of unity is more aimed at beginners I think that Unity is pretty good (my mom who is very technologically-challenged loves it). It just lacks some usability features. So maybe there can be a power version of unity that still has cool effects but has much more customization features. This would be for power users who like eyecandy but want to be able to customize extensively. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
I want to thank you John Lea for your attention and your patience in answering questions. It's really appreciated! People complain about the design team, but more often than not users act almost like bosses to them. Do you think that Unity bashing will make anyone more likely to listen to you if you say you have been using Ubuntu ever since 6.06? If you want to prove your point, the best way to do this is to do usability tests, and not with the Gnome-2 power users, but with the simple people that Ubuntu is aiming for. Get two Ubuntu computers, one with the default left-launcher and another with the bottom-launcher from Unity plugin rotated, and, with a similar approach to the design team, invite users to use them and share their impressions. This way, you will have factual data to share, collected in a more scientific manner, and you will be able to make arguments based on something other than your own personal opinion and workflow. I'm someone who likes the launcher on the left but understands that lots of people don't like it, so I voted for this bug. I know it's frustrating that things now are not the way everyone wants, but John's answers are very reasonable. The previous reason for the lack of movement of the launcher was the BFB, but now that reason is gone, there is a lack of humanpower. That's the bottom line, and it's something totally understandable. I'm sure this issue will become a priority when Unity becomes more stable (after 12.04) and the primary focus shifts to the phone and tablet interfaces, as the transition between the landscape and portrait orientations of the devices will become a challenge for the launcher. Until then, there's a Compiz plugin that anyone can install, and it should really get more technical support from the community, plus an effort to help Pavel Golikov to test and to iron out the plugin would make its possibility of a future acceptance into the Unity main code smoother. Focus should be turned to this. As to left-handed people, this is an important usability issue, and there already exists a (accidental) work in progress for fixing that: bug #654988 is about mirroring the interface. The fix for Unity 2D was released, and a fix for Unity 3D will be released when it is possible. I'm sure this is not useful for RTL locales only, but would be welcomed by the left-handed people who commented on this bug report too, so it would be nice to vote for and comment on that bug and to ask to be able to use this also in LTR locales.a -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
If you want to prove your point, the best way to do this is to do usability tests, and not with the Gnome-2 power users, but with the simple people that Ubuntu is aiming for. Get two Ubuntu computers, one with the default left-launcher and another with the bottom-launcher from Unity plugin rotated, and, with a similar approach to the design team, invite users to use them and share their impressions. I did so twice. I posted what I found here. I tested the usability with basically more people that Canonical did in their usability test with a huge and vast number of 20 test subjects. I did not even get an answer to those posts. Oh and by the way have a look at this blog posting: http://marcoceppi.com/2011/12/ask-ubuntu-32k-mile-marker/ Quite interesting that seemingly the most asked question about Unity is simply and straightforward: How can I configure Unity? Interesting, isn't it? As I said before. I could be content with a launcher which is not movable if some people here told me that they can CURRENTLY not implement many options to configure Unity but will do so in the near future (after 12.04). Instead you get the answer we will not offer such options. This whole bug report is about your freedom to decide how to configure your desktop or at least to offer developers an API to modify Unity. Instead you can write scopes and lenses The previous reason for the lack of movement of the launcher was the BFB, but now that reason is gone, there is a lack of humanpower. May I say we told you so ? The BFB was the reason to make the launcher not movable and now the reason is gone but the problem stays. The problem here is that some people, me for instance, feel mucked around for being given a reason which in its core was not really true. The human-power aspect is to me absolutely invalid because it points out that there are design errors (as some here have pointed out). And many people spoke about the design problems in Unity way before the discussion about this bug here exploded and way before they decided to put the BFB in the launcher. As to left-handed people, this is an important usability issue, and there already exists a (accidental) work in progress for fixing that: bug #654988 is about mirroring the interface. The fix for Unity 2D was released, and a fix for Unity 3D will be released when it is possible So only people using RTL languages can be left handed? an effort to help Pavel Golikov to test and to iron out the plugin would make its possibility of a future acceptance into the Unity main code smoother. Focus should be turned to this. Some said they would like to help Pavel but only if somebody among the development crew said that the improved code (patch) had a chance to be accepted. Currently all they say it is a design decision, we will never accept anything which is not in the scope of our design plans. Among those people is Mark Shuttleworth who said the launcher will NEVER be movable. To me a really prescient notion. There was already a patch for the minimize/maximize issue with the launcher (bug 733349). The patch was rejected because there were no design plans for a launcher with a configurable behaviour of the icons clicked. If you want to prove your point, the best way to do this is to do usability tests, and not with the Gnome-2 power users, but with the simple people that Ubuntu is aiming for So the old Gnome-2 power users do not count? Shall we throw them over board? Are they not of importance anymore? Have they done their job of bringing Ubuntu forward and advertising it among other users? Until then, there's a Compiz plugin that anyone can install, and it should really get more technical support from the community Heard of quid pro quo? They want more community (power) users to help. So give them something to identify with Unity. We want some more options and possibilities to configure it. There is more than a porn, a youtube, a calendar scope/lens system and all those other strange new scopes and lenses. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Mr Mark Shuttleworth, and those of you, who decided upon the shape of Unity. I don't care about Ubuntu anymore. The reason I write this last letter to you is because I want you to see how shallow your design decisions were. You tell continuously about lack of resources. You also want to bring the Linux desktop to a whole new level. Huh? What you developed so far shows only how blind and deaf you are. You want to make a perfect solution based on research and theories of sciences like ergonomy. The problem is, humans are not perfect. You are not perfect, users are not perfect, noone but God himself is perfect. And so those imperfections sum up. The lazy users with cosy work flows stumble upon bug in your product which is meant to be perfect, but fails at it. Wake up! Stop thinking like machines! Prototype - evaluate - improve - test - deploy. This a framework to make work easier, not the holy road to perfection. Most of innovation is a result of an out-of-the-box thinking, not a detailed process. To me, it seems like you decided to a work flow which exactly opposite to innovation. You can not innovate by using rules of improvements. Innovation by definition is an art of creation which is absolutely different than bug hunting. It absolutely blows my mind, HOW on earth did you decide to create a whole NEW desktop environment, when you knew how few you were in comparison to competition. WHY did you decide to fragment Linux ecosystem even more? Analyzing the feel of every Ubuntu since 7.04, I can tell that Unity idea emerged somewhere in late 2009. It was time of GNOME 2.28(?) and KDE 4.4,5. I expect that a professional team of UX experts would examine each and every available technology before laying down the foundations for the new creation. Since late 2007 the KDE team has made it clear that they were working on technology which would allow rapid creation of flexible environments with minimal effort. How did you not see it? To prove my point: a year ago KDE developers decided to push for mobile devices. I think you know the results. For about six months the interface was debated upon, ideas were collected and paradigms were established. When usability and UX bugs were ironed out, the project entered the next phase. In another half a year the code was written and product is ready for production use. In the meantime the whole new, innovative mechanisms of activities and recommendations were developed and integrated with Plasma Active. And what Canonical did? For example: 1. You wrote Unity with tight GNOME Mutter integration. 2. You rewrote Unity with tight Compiz integration. 3. You rewrote Unity in QTQuick. 4. You rewrote Unity in GTK3. 5. You will write extremely complex behavior of Unity launcher because it is so difficult to implement the movable launcher... This is an excellent example on HOW TO WASTE AS MUCH WORK FORCE AS POSSIBLE. Mr Mark, it seems to me that you only excel at charisma and leadership skill. It looks like I will never again install Ubuntu on any machine I will have contact with. I bask in Gentoo's stability and KDE's innovation. There is little more that I can get from Linux. Farewell Canonical! May I never have to deal with you again. Hirager -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
** Tags added: unity -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Same here. I LOVE those big icons. That's why I am upset when the Ubuntu dev team goes directly against the wishes of the community. I really like unity and I don't want to leave it if I don't have to. Of course its going to introduce more bugs!!! EVERY change one makes to a website, program, or OS is BOUND to introduce bugs! But that is not a problem. Bugs are the way a program grows. Why is 12.04 being developed? That will introduce new bugs. But its not an issue! Why? Because the community WANTS 12.04. Mark seems to think that he is making the OS for himself, and the only one who should be involved is him. I think its time for a big paradigm shift. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
I think my comment could be ignored because many people already said them. But I cannot resist myself to say some complaints. In the first place, I actually liked Unity showing a launchpad with big icons and Dash Home interface. I still like it. Then I wanted it to be on the bottom. Then,,, huh...? not allowed? And the reason is because of bugs to be introduced? And precious vertical space? I don't see why it would be difficult to implement this feature. And I don't understand other reasons either. I see a few features to be modified like: the place of ballooned name when I put my mouse pointer on top of the icon, and then... anything else? Well, that's too much simplification (I know programming because I do) but the fact that changing position of the lauchpad would introduce bugs means a very poor initial design. And why did they think that all monitors are on landscape position? I see many people using portrait position. They'll waste a lot of vertical real estate. Anyway, eye candies are really good in Unity. I like those eye candies. I also liked big icons listed in the Dash Home. Those designs are good. I think my 3-yr daughter might like it more than gnome 2. But I think I won't use it. Gnome 3 fallback mode looks much better and simpler. So... I'll go for Edubuntu which includes forced gnome 3 fallback mode (the reason why pure gnome 3 is not allowed is beyond my understanding though). The fact that I like those large icons in Dash Home makes me guess that Metro interface of the Microsoft Windows should feel really good. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@Tal Liron I already mentioned that strange new Multi Monitor concept before. But up to now, there has not been any comment/answer to that. @Fernando As I said before I was happy that all of the last comments were not about leaving Unity behind but instead focused on bringing forward valid arguments of why to make the launcher movable. So please do not start the Unity bashing again. Next people will again start to discuss which desktop environment is the better one. That is not what we need. Running away from a really big problem, by switching from Unity to XFCE will not change anything and will not bring up a solution for the problem. Most of those people who posted their comments here and discussed the issues (Pros and Cons) of a movable launcher want Unity because it is a good idea and, therefore, I suppose most of them like Unity. If you do not like Unity then this is your choice and it is ok for me as long as you do not start using this bug report as a platform to advertise a different desktop environment (be it xfce, ldx, gnome shell or whatever). -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@SRoesgen With 269 comments (mine is 270!), *every* aspect of this bug has been mentioned already, at least once. :) I suggest we all give it a rest. It is very clear that this bug report is not helping one bit. Mark has not budged since comment 2, and in the plans for 12.04 we see that the Unity team is prepared to go to great and bizarre lengths to make sure that the Launcher will not be movable. All we're doing by nagging is fitting in Mark's view of the community, that we are part of a minority of users who refuse to accept that their pet bug won't be fixed. This, I insist, is an error in understanding the reason for nagging: the community is in fact worried about Unity's usability and potential, and is every bit concerned about future Ubuntu users as he is. We tell our stories here, as anecdotal evidence, and provide our opinions, as longtime computer users. Come to think of it, he has not *once* come out and thanked us for posting on this bug. He sees this whole bug as a nuisance and distraction from his real work, rather than a valuable source of input from people who use Ubuntu everyday. (He has stated explicitly that he doesn't care about our opinion: he is targeting people who never used computers before, or who have barely used them.) Locking a huge, important UI element like the Launcher to a specific part of any and all displays will hurt that future. The sheer diversity of computer displays out there -- so many different sizes, resolutions, aspect ratios, viewing angles, multiple display setups, touch vs. non- touch, eInk vs. LCD, including new display technologies that we don't know about yet -- demands that Unity maintain flexibility. And then there's a diversity of users: left-handed, right-handed, speakers of right-to-left languages (like me). You want to run Unity in a car computer? Well, in your country do you driving on the left or right side of the road? There are just so many aspects to this that it seems like shooting yourself in the foot by not planning for such futures. The vision of an operating system for human beings can only work if it takes into account the diversity of humans and the diversity of their experience. Otherwise, it will be an operating system for a lucky group of human beings who happen to fit a specific mold. I have no doubt that in a year or two, Unity will have no choice but to make the Launcher movable, introducing considerable breakage and change to a bug-free product. And then all our comments on this bug will remain as archaeological evidence that perhaps the community should have been listened to. :) -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@SRoesgen Do you think that Unity movable launcher will ever be solved? That is why I had proposed another option for those people who can't install Unity on their production machines because of the launcher. If you think it is a minor problem for you, I have lots of testimonials that says that Unity has decreased people's productivity, due to launcher position and its hide and show behavior. It is very hard to quickly switch between windows on Unity. They tried to make something similar to MacOS, but they had made a bad mistake. All sorts of arguments have been made here, and people at canonical will continue to follow their initial design steps. My suggestion was based on an article from Linux Journal, and I thought it could be useful for people who are in this thread, discussing this endless problem. I don't think that the desktop environment should be a game of hide and seek or any other sort of weird behavior that it can present, but an tool to help people manage their open windows and find their applications and documents. On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 6:57 PM, Tal Liron 668...@bugs.launchpad.netwrote: @SRoesgen With 269 comments (mine is 270!), *every* aspect of this bug has been mentioned already, at least once. :) I suggest we all give it a rest. It is very clear that this bug report is not helping one bit. Mark has not budged since comment 2, and in the plans for 12.04 we see that the Unity team is prepared to go to great and bizarre lengths to make sure that the Launcher will not be movable. All we're doing by nagging is fitting in Mark's view of the community, that we are part of a minority of users who refuse to accept that their pet bug won't be fixed. This, I insist, is an error in understanding the reason for nagging: the community is in fact worried about Unity's usability and potential, and is every bit concerned about future Ubuntu users as he is. We tell our stories here, as anecdotal evidence, and provide our opinions, as longtime computer users. Come to think of it, he has not *once* come out and thanked us for posting on this bug. He sees this whole bug as a nuisance and distraction from his real work, rather than a valuable source of input from people who use Ubuntu everyday. (He has stated explicitly that he doesn't care about our opinion: he is targeting people who never used computers before, or who have barely used them.) Locking a huge, important UI element like the Launcher to a specific part of any and all displays will hurt that future. The sheer diversity of computer displays out there -- so many different sizes, resolutions, aspect ratios, viewing angles, multiple display setups, touch vs. non- touch, eInk vs. LCD, including new display technologies that we don't know about yet -- demands that Unity maintain flexibility. And then there's a diversity of users: left-handed, right-handed, speakers of right-to-left languages (like me). You want to run Unity in a car computer? Well, in your country do you driving on the left or right side of the road? There are just so many aspects to this that it seems like shooting yourself in the foot by not planning for such futures. The vision of an operating system for human beings can only work if it takes into account the diversity of humans and the diversity of their experience. Otherwise, it will be an operating system for a lucky group of human beings who happen to fit a specific mold. I have no doubt that in a year or two, Unity will have no choice but to make the Launcher movable, introducing considerable breakage and change to a bug-free product. And then all our comments on this bug will remain as archaeological evidence that perhaps the community should have been listened to. :) -- You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to a duplicate bug report (821156). https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher Status in Ayatana Design: Won't Fix Status in Unity: Won't Fix Status in Ubuntu: Won't Fix Bug description: Please consider this a possible feature request or wishlist. Now when Unity will be default desktop for 11.04 could you please consider to add option to configure Unity launcher placement. Add simple option to lock/unlock through right-click menu and drag launcher to desired location like left/right and bottom. To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- Fernando -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
I found some information about planned multi-monitor support in 12.04, and how it would impact the Launcher. The bottom line is that the Unity team is dead serious about not making the Launcher movable. So, how are they going to solve the current bugs? By having the Launcher on all monitors! The implication is that you would always want auto-hide turned on, otherwise you will be wasting space on all your monitors, not to mention having a very confusing experience seeing multiple Launchers at the same time. And this bizarre setup, with an increasingly complex auto-hide/edge- detection heuristic, is supposed to involve less work than simply having a single Launcher which the user can place on any edge of any monitor? What do you think? The document is here: http://design.canonical.com/the-toolkit/unity-multi-monitor- interactions/ The relevant text from section 2.6: The Launcher is now available on all displays. Each Launcher contains the same set of application icons, showing both pinned and running applications. The same unfilled indicator arrow, used to identify applications which have all of their windows on a different workspace, is also used to identify applications which have all of their windows on a different display. Otherwise, filled indicator arrows are used, to show whether the application has one, two, or three-or-more windows on the current display. The behaviour upon clicking Launcher icons remains the same as in 12.04. Where the Auto-hide behaviour is specified (this is the default behaviour and can be changed from System Settings-User Interface), the Launcher will be shown whilst it does not obscure any windows, otherwise it is hidden and revealed by targeting the left edge of the display. When targeting a Launcher, the mouse cursor is held briefly at the left- edge of a display (as it passes from right to left across display boundaries), to make it possible to target the Launcher in Auto-hide mode. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
I think that people unhappy with these new user interfaces, should opt to try Xubuntu. I've made this decision after trying Unity and seeing that isn't an user interface that helps users be productive. It gets in the way of everybody that tries to use it. After many complaints, and discussions, I see that we must apart way from this, and don't lose our efforts to try to change this situation, because it will never be changed. For anyone seeking an (another of many that were already published) article about this situation, I've just read this from Linux Journal: http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/goodbye-gnome-2-hello-gnome-2?utm_source=feedburnerutm_medium=feedutm_campaign=Feed%3A+linuxjournalcom+%28Linux+Journal+-+The+Original+Magazine+of+the+Linux+Community%29 Xubuntu gives users an desktop environment that resembles our Gnome 2 that we were productive and happy. I'm not against changes, but Unity, actually, don't let me find my working windows, and the bar on the left always appears when I really don't want them to appear. Since we can't customize the desktop, the only solution is to install another environment. I don't know why, but Unity everytime makes me remind the slogan defective by design, even it being opensource and drm-free. On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Tal Liron 668...@bugs.launchpad.netwrote: I found some information about planned multi-monitor support in 12.04, and how it would impact the Launcher. The bottom line is that the Unity team is dead serious about not making the Launcher movable. So, how are they going to solve the current bugs? By having the Launcher on all monitors! The implication is that you would always want auto-hide turned on, otherwise you will be wasting space on all your monitors, not to mention having a very confusing experience seeing multiple Launchers at the same time. And this bizarre setup, with an increasingly complex auto-hide/edge- detection heuristic, is supposed to involve less work than simply having a single Launcher which the user can place on any edge of any monitor? What do you think? The document is here: http://design.canonical.com/the-toolkit/unity-multi-monitor- interactions/ The relevant text from section 2.6: The Launcher is now available on all displays. Each Launcher contains the same set of application icons, showing both pinned and running applications. The same unfilled indicator arrow, used to identify applications which have all of their windows on a different workspace, is also used to identify applications which have all of their windows on a different display. Otherwise, filled indicator arrows are used, to show whether the application has one, two, or three-or-more windows on the current display. The behaviour upon clicking Launcher icons remains the same as in 12.04. Where the Auto-hide behaviour is specified (this is the default behaviour and can be changed from System Settings-User Interface), the Launcher will be shown whilst it does not obscure any windows, otherwise it is hidden and revealed by targeting the left edge of the display. When targeting a Launcher, the mouse cursor is held briefly at the left- edge of a display (as it passes from right to left across display boundaries), to make it possible to target the Launcher in Auto-hide mode. -- You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to a duplicate bug report (821156). https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher Status in Ayatana Design: Won't Fix Status in Unity: Won't Fix Status in Ubuntu: Won't Fix Bug description: Please consider this a possible feature request or wishlist. Now when Unity will be default desktop for 11.04 could you please consider to add option to configure Unity launcher placement. Add simple option to lock/unlock through right-click menu and drag launcher to desired location like left/right and bottom. To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- Fernando -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Tablets, phones and some LCDs with pivot have portrait mode in which launcher on the left takes too much space and is ridiculously high. Tablets especially are often used in this mode. So if you want to make Unity for tablets you need to make it movable anyway. (and on phones it would have to be on the bottom anyway - most new phones are 16:9 and used in portrait with little space for launcher on the left) -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@Magnes: your arguments are quite invalid when it's a hiding launcher. On 12/22/2011 08:55 AM, Magnes wrote: Tablets, phones and some LCDs with pivot have portrait mode in which launcher on the left takes too much space and is ridiculously high. Tablets especially are often used in this mode. So if you want to make Unity for tablets you need to make it movable anyway. (and on phones it would have to be on the bottom anyway - most new phones are 16:9 and used in portrait with little space for launcher on the left) -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
Hiding launcher on a touchscreen? That would be pretty hard to use. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
realn wrote: How will we be skipping to the next track on our future laptops? By shaking them, too ? No, that's for rebooting: http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1995-04-03/ -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@Magnes: not if it's on the left of the screen and you swipe right-to-left to reveal it (just like moving your mouse to the right). At least, that's what I remember having seen in some plan. On 12/22/2011 10:22 AM, Magnes wrote: Hiding launcher on a touchscreen? That would be pretty hard to use. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@Maarten Kossen Swiping into any direction would be a nice and handy metaphor for turning the pages of a book. But instead of this the swiping will reveal the launcher which people might not even know exists because it is auto-hidden on a touch screen? Well, nicely done. For me this sound not very logical or intuitive. Especially since many people use tablets as some form of high powered e-reader, e-book, webbrowser and not much more (besides reading e-mails). @all The fact that so many people have problems with only one feature and debate it for over one year now, would make me think about the decisions. I think that all of us really like Ubuntu, the idea behind Ubuntu and even Unity. If we didn't care for Unity, we would not start debating a single feature but instead we would criticize the whole Unity Shell (which is exactly what we are not doing at the moment, which is very good.) The point is, one can see the arguments against a moveable launcher. But many of them are not really valid anymore. And I am sorry, I cannot see any really conclusive and convincing argument against a movable launcher in the far future. @John Lea (and I am afraid I have to get a little bit academic now) You didn't get my car metaphor right. I was not talking about blocking future developments and innovation. Innovation is a good thing. I was talking about something that in psychological theories is called the horizon of expectation. If you see a product you expect things. If these expectations are not met they break that horizon of expectations and usually are met with criticism and debate. My analogy was about the doors in a car. Not the number of doors, but the doors itself. If you have a car with two, four or eight doors. You will expect all of them to work as doors and not as windows. You create your own horizon of expectation derived by your life experiences, they define your habits and pattern of thinking. The criticism that emerges when breaking this horizon will inevitably create debate, which in itself is not bad. Breaking the horizon of expectation very often resulted in new innovations. But breaking the horizon several times, on multiple points will automatically result in defamiliarization (or alienation) of those who see their horizon of expectations broken too often by the same event/thing. Basically the premise under which you developed Unity was good, and well thought. The design is creating familiarities on different points by creating elements you can relate to because they are known, working features in smart phones, desktops of operating systems, netbook interfaces etc... The problem arises when those points which apparently create familiarities are broken when the recipient (user) experiences moments when those familiar paradigms, which create stability, are not working as expected. The people here want exactly one feature added. And indeed you can postulate that every single concession made here will result in debates on other places about different topics and different bugs. And thus you might complain that too many user features will result in an unmaintainable Unit. The difference is that there are very very few bugs on launchpad which are debated to extensively, so vigorously and so passionately. This should make you think about it. I once told here before. I think the idea of Mark Shuttleworth of a dictator, as somebody whose power lies in dictandi ingenio, in the power to command if requested and if necessary, is basically a good thing. Too much debate about everything will destroy a product and make it a formless mass which is unmaintainable code. But a Roman dictator had only a short period of this time of absolute power to command and make decisions. He was never held responsible for those thing he commanded during that period of reign. But after a few month this reign was over and there was again a debate culture in the Roman Senate and the Assemblies. What I want to say: if so many people, at least a significant and audible number of people, want something, then wouldn't it be right to raise against the topic. Bring it before the assemblies and the senate (so discuss in in some internet fora/forums, on mailing lists of the Dx or design or desktop teams). Make the members of those lists read this whole discussion that is raging for over one year now. And then decide again what is right and what is wrong. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@SRoesgen: I think the left border will be the most unlikely place for a false positive, even when flipping the pages of a book. If it were up to me, I would require the finger to almost hit the left-most line of pixels. That would work well, I think. On 12/22/2011 02:00 PM, SRoesgen wrote: @Maarten Kossen Swiping into any direction would be a nice and handy metaphor for turning the pages of a book. But instead of this the swiping will reveal the launcher which people might not even know exists because it is auto-hidden on a touch screen? Well, nicely done. For me this sound not very logical or intuitive. Especially since many people use tablets as some form of high powered e-reader, e-book, webbrowser and not much more (besides reading e-mails). @all The fact that so many people have problems with only one feature and debate it for over one year now, would make me think about the decisions. I think that all of us really like Ubuntu, the idea behind Ubuntu and even Unity. If we didn't care for Unity, we would not start debating a single feature but instead we would criticize the whole Unity Shell (which is exactly what we are not doing at the moment, which is very good.) The point is, one can see the arguments against a moveable launcher. But many of them are not really valid anymore. And I am sorry, I cannot see any really conclusive and convincing argument against a movable launcher in the far future. @John Lea (and I am afraid I have to get a little bit academic now) You didn't get my car metaphor right. I was not talking about blocking future developments and innovation. Innovation is a good thing. I was talking about something that in psychological theories is called the horizon of expectation. If you see a product you expect things. If these expectations are not met they break that horizon of expectations and usually are met with criticism and debate. My analogy was about the doors in a car. Not the number of doors, but the doors itself. If you have a car with two, four or eight doors. You will expect all of them to work as doors and not as windows. You create your own horizon of expectation derived by your life experiences, they define your habits and pattern of thinking. The criticism that emerges when breaking this horizon will inevitably create debate, which in itself is not bad. Breaking the horizon of expectation very often resulted in new innovations. But breaking the horizon several times, on multiple points will automatically result in defamiliarization (or alienation) of those who see their horizon of expectations broken too often by the same event/thing. Basically the premise under which you developed Unity was good, and well thought. The design is creating familiarities on different points by creating elements you can relate to because they are known, working features in smart phones, desktops of operating systems, netbook interfaces etc... The problem arises when those points which apparently create familiarities are broken when the recipient (user) experiences moments when those familiar paradigms, which create stability, are not working as expected. The people here want exactly one feature added. And indeed you can postulate that every single concession made here will result in debates on other places about different topics and different bugs. And thus you might complain that too many user features will result in an unmaintainable Unit. The difference is that there are very very few bugs on launchpad which are debated to extensively, so vigorously and so passionately. This should make you think about it. I once told here before. I think the idea of Mark Shuttleworth of a dictator, as somebody whose power lies in dictandi ingenio, in the power to command if requested and if necessary, is basically a good thing. Too much debate about everything will destroy a product and make it a formless mass which is unmaintainable code. But a Roman dictator had only a short period of this time of absolute power to command and make decisions. He was never held responsible for those thing he commanded during that period of reign. But after a few month this reign was over and there was again a debate culture in the Roman Senate and the Assemblies. What I want to say: if so many people, at least a significant and audible number of people, want something, then wouldn't it be right to raise against the topic. Bring it before the assemblies and the senate (so discuss in in some internet fora/forums, on mailing lists of the Dx or design or desktop teams). Make the members of those lists read this whole discussion that is raging for over one year now. And then decide again what is right and what is wrong. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
JohnLea wrote: @flyingfisch; I posted the reasons we are not able to add Launcher movement atm in comment #226. Basically implementing this change so that it works correctly with all the other Unity elements in a bug free manner is *a lot* of work from both a design and development standpoint. Our limited resources are currently best spent elsewhere (quality improvements, feature development). A change like this would introduce a lot of bugs, and this is not something we can do until the backlog of existing bugs is resolved. For very tech. savy users who don't mind bugs, patches are the way to go in order to preview functionality that has not yet met the quality standard required to land in main Ubuntu. See http://www.webupd8.org/2011/11/install-ubuntu-unity-bottom-launcher.html for a great patch Pavel Golikov has written that moves the Launcher to the bottom. Thank You for your explanation. Like I said, I understand why it would be difficult, but could the ubuntu dev team consider it in a release? And I don't mean next release necessarily, I just mean, some time in the future. Here are some reasons to allow movement of the launcher by default: 1. Left-handed Users: Having the launcher on the right could be ergonomically difficult for left-handed users. 2.Accidental Activation: It seems easier to activate the launcher accidentally (while watching YouTube videos, playing games, etc.) when it is on the left. 3.User-friendliness: In my opinion, users should be able to customize most of the interface of an OS out-of-the-box. Those are just my personal opinions which are subject to debate. ;) -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
There are two elephants in the room for this bug. The first is the poor job the Unity team is doing in explaining their position to the community, for which I opened this bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/882274 The second is the inconsistency and implausibility of the explanation. The broader design goals Mark mentions all the way up in comment 2, the original stated reason for closing this bug, have not been true since the release of Ubuntu 11.10. What worries me more is the implausibility. Some of the people adding their opinion to this bug are casual users. Some are power users. Some are seasoned software developers with quite a bit of experience in delivering working products with human-facing interfaces, as well as working with quality assurance. I'm one of them, and your explanation just does not gel. Yes, extra features add more testing scenarios. Yes, that requires more resources to manage. But ... come on, folk, all of this is totally manageable, even with the most elaborate and ornate testing methodologies. After all, you've managed the ability to change the width of the Launcher, right? Bugs may ensue with a movable Launcher, but they will be solved. It's not like you haven't taken risks with buggy features in the past: in fact, you took a huge risk with making Unity as a whole the default experience when there were plenty of *known* bugs. And bugs have a much better chance of getting solved if you cultivate good will with the community. Let us all remember: Pavel Golikov's patch was rejected. I was actually starting work on a similar patch at about the same time Pavel was, but obviously I have no interest in doing that now. I'll be frank, with the risk of hitting a nerve: I think the Unity team has climbed up a tree and can't come down. They've been too quick to dismiss this bug, and overly defensive about their initial decision. After making such a defiant stand about the won't fix, and after (some of) the community has responded with its own defiant stand, it's now impossible to back out without somehow appearing weak and undetermined. Mark keeps stressing how important it is to make focused decisions in order for Ubuntu to lead, even if they are unpopular. But that's true only as long as the decisions are good. Another sign of successful leadership is listening to criticism, climbing down that tree, and admitting mistakes. So, let's admit that the community's point of view might be the better one for Ubuntu right now and Ubuntu in the future. Canonical might not have the resources to fix this bug right now, but how about we remove the won't fix and plan a way to fix it sometime in the future? (I can't speak for Pavel, but I believe he would be happy to help!) Better late than never. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 668415] Re: Movement of Unity launcher
@Maarten KossenThere is at least one major argument There is at least one major argument for not moving it: cross-device functionality. It should be able to works well on a tablet or smartphone exactly as on the desktop Good. Then make it configurable only on the desktop and not on TVs, smart phones, etc... . I never even tried to configure my TV and would never blame anybody if my TV were not configurable. And I would never blame anybody who coded a smart phone OS which would only allow basic or superficial configurations. I am used to a smart phone to not being very flexible if it comes to configurations. But I can complain about a desktop pc or a laptop which does not offer the flexibility the normal user is used to. Do not get me wrong. I really, really like Unity. It has some great futures and even if there are many bugs I see a great future for Unity. But the way a couple of bug/feature requests are handled currently really pi**es me off. As I said John Lea's answers are the only rational answers so far. And the only ones which are somewhat satisfying. But the main problem is that he talks about future visions and where the development will take us in a couple of years. As I said before Mark Shuttleworth said more or less directly that some features will never be implemented. And this is crap. I can understand that one says:we do not have the manpower. I can understand the answer not now, there is not time for this. or the answer at the moments there will emerge too many bugs. But there are people here who would help to code patches to make the initial steps possible (and yes, I know, there would be need for somebody who maintains these patches, which would be the next problem). And telling them:we do not want you and your help and we do not want your patches because Unity will never ever include that feature, that is a behaviour I cannot stand. Ubuntu became what it is today by and through the community. And telling a part of this community that the ship is now heading down the river into a new direction and that everybody who does want adjustments to the current course has to jump from board and board a different ship, that is not very kind and very grateful to those who have invested much of their private, spare time to help the community to grow. I did never talk about Unity being bad or crap. I like it. I did not talk of changing the course, I only see the need for adjustments, instead of changes. But every time you start to criticize the design decisions you are treated as an enemy to the whole project. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/668415 Title: Movement of Unity launcher To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/668415/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
