[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

This is not an SRU-appropriate change and should not have been accepted into artful. Please revert this ASAP for artful. Marking 'wontfix' for xenial. ** Changed in: systemd (Ubuntu Xenial) Status: In Progress => Won't Fix -- You received this bug notification because you are a member

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

@andre-tomt opened regression-update bug at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1758865 to track this. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1618188 Title: systemd

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

systemd upgrades are now failing in my build chroots, and I suspect it is related to this change. Setting up systemd (234-2ubuntu12.3) ... addgroup: The group `systemd-journal' already exists as a system group. Exiting. [/usr/lib/tmpfiles.d/tmp.conf:15] Failed to replace specifiers:

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

This bug was fixed in the package systemd - 234-2ubuntu12.3 --- systemd (234-2ubuntu12.3) artful; urgency=medium [ Dimitri John Ledkov ] * Fix test-functions failing with Ubuntu units. LP: #1750608 * tests: switch to using ext4 by default, instead of ext3. LP: #1750608 * Fix

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

Tested that systemd amd64 234-2ubuntu12.3 installed in a chroot; and upgraded in lxd container; correctly creates /var/log/journal, with correct group/sticky permissions set. ** Tags removed: verification-needed-artful ** Tags added: verification-done-artful -- You received this bug

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

"The performance impact on disk throughput should not be significant..." Understood, thanks! I just didn't see that mentioned in the SRU. Re:dedup: I prefer the dropping rsyslog, but none of those are feasible for existing releases, right? What are the journal limits on Ubuntu by default? --

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

Dimitri, could you split the duplication issue into a separate bug? (On that topic, see also https://community.ubuntu.com/t/no-rsyslog-in- default-desktop-install/4169 ) -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu.

Re: [Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

On 22 February 2018 at 21:11, Bryan Quigley wrote: > @markstos > Sorry, yea, I meant our defaults, not the journal config options itself. > SystemMaxUse= is unset in the config in bionic (although it's all commented > out, but I believe that's supposed to indicate

Re: [Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

On 22 February 2018 at 20:20, Bryan Quigley wrote: > @xnox > "The journald daemon has limits set for logs, meaning they will be rotated > and discarded and should not cause out of disk-space errors." > > What are they? AFAICT it only has limits on the number of

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

@markstos Sorry, yea, I meant our defaults, not the journal config options itself. SystemMaxUse= is unset in the config in bionic (although it's all commented out, but I believe that's supposed to indicate our defaults?) Re:disk writing. I don't disagree, but if we are SRUing it we need to

Re: [Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

> @xnox > "The journald daemon has limits set for logs, meaning they will be > rotated and discarded and should not cause out of disk-space errors." > > What are they? AFAICT it only has limits on the number of files, but > not how big they can overall become. The limits are documented in `man

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

@xnox "The journald daemon has limits set for logs, meaning they will be rotated and discarded and should not cause out of disk-space errors." What are they? AFAICT it only has limits on the number of files, but not how big they can overall become. I'm also thinking that the duplicate writing

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

Hello Mark, or anyone else affected, Accepted systemd into artful-proposed. The package will build now and be available at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/234-2ubuntu12.3 in a few hours, and then in the -proposed repository. Please help us by testing this new package. See

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

** Description changed: + [Impact] + + * System logs are lost across reboots because they are not stored + persistently. + + [Test Case] + + * Fresh installations, or upgrades to this version of systemd, should create /var/log/journal and trigger automatic persistent logs. + * Users may

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

** Changed in: systemd (Ubuntu Zesty) Status: Confirmed => Won't Fix ** Changed in: systemd (Ubuntu Xenial) Status: Confirmed => In Progress ** Changed in: systemd (Ubuntu Artful) Status: Confirmed => In Progress -- You received this bug notification because you are a

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

Awesome! Thanks Dimitri! -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1618188 Title: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created To manage notifications

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

What??!!! Persistent logging does lot more that just logging. Do you people even use sata hard disk? There are multiple reports (check archlinux forums) that it is bad for sata. That is why it is set to auto by default. The word "auto" exactly created for that purposewhen there is both benefit

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

Thanks Dimitri! I see that this bug has open tasks for Xenial, Zesty and Artful- my understanding it this would not be a change we would backport. Am I wrong about that? -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu.

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

This bug was fixed in the package systemd - 235-3ubuntu3 --- systemd (235-3ubuntu3) bionic; urgency=medium * netwokrd: add support for RequiredForOnline stanza. (LP: #1737570) * resolved.service: set DefaultDependencies=no (LP: #1734167) * systemd.postinst: enable persistent

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

Still waiting for a "out-of-the-box" persistent journal rotation: - day's log is added endlessly to the queue - as the last day is added to the end of the journal, scrolling down takes age to get actual log - journalctl point to /var/log/journal; might point to the /run/log/journal for quick

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

Status changed to 'Confirmed' because the bug affects multiple users. ** Changed in: systemd (Ubuntu Zesty) Status: New => Confirmed -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1618188

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

Status changed to 'Confirmed' because the bug affects multiple users. ** Changed in: systemd (Ubuntu Artful) Status: New => Confirmed -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1618188

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

Status changed to 'Confirmed' because the bug affects multiple users. ** Changed in: systemd (Ubuntu Xenial) Status: New => Confirmed -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1618188

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

** Summary changed: - systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created; remove rsyslog from default installs + systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created ** No longer affects: ubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) ** Also affects:

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created; remove rsyslog from default installs

Apologies I didn't post this in the bug, but this was discussed before - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2017-January/039634.html (crosses -devel and devel-discuss) My understanding was we were just waiting on implementation details (how much/long to store in the journal, how to

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created; remove rsyslog from default installs

I started a policy discussion on ubuntu-devel about whether systemd journal logging should be persistent by default: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2017-November/040031.html I encourage to participate. Non-developers can still participant, but posts will be moderated (that's how

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created; remove rsyslog from default installs

In addition to Dimitri comments, my patch also would result in a much larger journal then comparable rsyslog. I managed to get mine up to multiple GBs which on a slow disk, appears to actually slow down logging. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs,

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created; remove rsyslog from default installs

Let's give this discussion another dimension. Non-persistent logging as default made it impossible to debug a critical `fwupdate` bug where the OS doesn't boot after a firmware update: https://github.com/rhboot/fwupdate/issues/86 Please, please, just enable persistent logging by default. Systemd

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created; remove rsyslog from default installs

@olberd: Yes, I as a "typical user" can confirm that. I just wanted to get some log data from the previous boot and was really surprised to find that only the current boot was available. I have changed the setting now, but the data I wanted is lost forever. -- You received this bug notification

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created; remove rsyslog from default installs

@dino99: I think the typical user won't realize, that the logs are being thrown away, until they need a log from the previous boot. By then it is too late to correct the configuration. Why not set `Storage=persistent` in `/etc/systemd/journald.conf` instead of creating the folder. That would

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created; remove rsyslog from default installs

According to systemd-journald's man page, this should do it: mkdir -p /var/log/journal systemd-tmpfiles --create --prefix /var/log/journal -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1618188

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created; remove rsyslog from default installs

@dino99. Because good defaults matter. Being safe by default is important. Being secure by default is important. The "Principle of least surprise" applies here: "In general engineering design contexts, the principle can be taken to mean that a component of a system should behave in a manner

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created; remove rsyslog from default installs

@All not a big deal to create /var/log/journal if a user want/need it; its documented since the beginning. So why doing things complicated when the actual default is light enough ? -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu.

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created; remove rsyslog from default installs

@bryanquigley I agree that this should be done; however that trivial patch is not quite enough, as one has to make sure the permissions on the directory are correct and that one allows disabling that feature too, and preserve the admin choice w.r.t. that on upgrades, and we do need flush the

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created; remove rsyslog from default installs

@dino99 how was "what most users prefer" prefer determined? Was there a poll? Systemd already has configuration options to limit the growth the the journal. As documented in `man journald.conf`, the defaults are already set to prevent filling up a disk. If there were a poll, I can certainly

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created; remove rsyslog from default installs

Given the discussions on ubuntu-devel/discuss, the controversial part seemed to be more around removing rsyslog, and we haven't gotten (or I haven't seen) any pushback on just doing both for now. dino99>the actual 'non permanent' journal by default is that most users prefer; Why do you believe

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created; remove rsyslog from default installs

Trivial patch that just ensures the /var/log/journal directory gets created. ** Patch added: "systemd_232-17ubuntu2.debdiff" https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1618188/+attachment/4818279/+files/systemd_232-17ubuntu2.debdiff -- You received this bug notification because

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created; remove rsyslog from default installs

Everyone can set a permanent storage: sudo mkdir -p /var/log/journal https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-use-journalctl- to-view-and-manipulate-systemd-logs http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/191313/why-is-my-systemd- journal-not-persistent-across-reboots -- You

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created; remove rsyslog from default installs

Comment: the actual 'non permanent' journal by default is that most users prefer; and should continue to be to avoid fullfilling the storage device. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu.

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created; remove rsyslog from default installs

I actually don't mind the "logging everything twice" bit. As journald has good garbage collection built in, and has much better timestamps. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1618188

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created; remove rsyslog from default installs

I understand it is not desirable to have duplicate logging, but there is a corner case where logging that is done during systemd shutdown is lost because rsyslog is killed. This makes shutdown look broken due to it being non-deterministic exactly when rsyslog is killed. Currently, the easiest way

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

> Where will the public policy discuss take place? It should happen on https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu- devel . However, I'm not going to start it now, we are past feature freeze for yakkety and I have enough other things to work on in this release. Feel free to start it yourself

Re: [Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

Thanks for the response, Martin. Where will the public policy discuss take place? Perhaps one possibility for a interim solution is for rsyslog to log to journald by default instead of to disk by default and otherwise maximally direct services to log into journald instead of rsyslog. Mark

[Bug 1618188] Re: systemd journal should be persistent by default: /var/log/journal should be created

This needs a public policy discussion first: We will not enable persistent journal without also removing rsyslog by default, as we really don't want to log everything twice. ** Changed in: systemd (Ubuntu) Importance: Undecided => Wishlist ** Changed in: systemd (Ubuntu) Status: New =>