Re: Empty Create Document menu
On 30/10/2008, Matthew East [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 4:38 PM, A. Walton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally have no problem seeing Ubuntu ship a few default templates in /etc/skel/. From my GNOME point of view, I think it'd be a healthy thing to do, and I think distros have the good sense to manage what they put in there, even though it's not recommended. This is the problem right here. I think it's pretty uncontestable, for the reasons that Michael Meeks states on the Gnome mailing list thread, that having some templates in ~/Templates by default would improve enormously the user experience. So, it's a valid bug. But, it's been closed by the Ubuntu developer because we have one Gnome developer, not even the nautilus maintainers, with a loud voice on a thread on the Gnome mailing list saying it's a bad idea because he doesn't trust distributors to do a good job to maintain a healthy list of templates. It seems plain to me having read the thread that the correct approach here is for distros to take responsibility for this and ship some templates in ~/Templates by default (whether using /etc/skel or other technical means). It's only distros who have control over whether that list of templates will get cluttered or not, so it's distros who can keep it clean. I think closing the bug was the wrong decision and I really hope that it can be reconsidered as a potential feature for Ubuntu 9.04. -- Matthew East http://www.mdke.org gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop +1 -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Empty Create Document menu
2008/10/30 Matthew East [EMAIL PROTECTED] It seems plain to me having read the thread that the correct approach here is for distros to take responsibility for this and ship some templates in ~/Templates by default (whether using /etc/skel or other technical means). It's only distros who have control over whether that list of templates will get cluttered or not, so it's distros who can keep it clean. I think that Matthew is totally right: the responsability is on distros to handle a correct list of templates, regarding application they shipped and maintain it accorded to its evolution. This would provide reasonable default which can hilight this feature for new users and give them a clue on how they can populate the Create Document item. This feature is, to my mind, very powerful, easy to use but unfortunately unknown because of not explaining/guiding people on how to use it. Didier -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Empty Create Document menu
Le jeudi 30 octobre 2008 à 08:30 +, Matthew East a écrit : it's been closed by the Ubuntu developer because we have one Gnome developer, not even the nautilus maintainers, with a loud voice on a Hi, that is a wrong statement, the launchpad nautilus bug has been closed because that's not a nautilus bug and such changes should be discussed on a mailing list where you will get comments on and not a bug tracker. the way to do that would be to copy some templates in the user directory, note that doing that automatically when adding an user has been decided against before because it's specific to GNOME and users doing server installation don't want those template for example. Sebastien Bacher -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Empty Create Document menu
Hi, This is a little offtopic, but... that is a wrong statement, the launchpad nautilus bug has been closed because that's not a nautilus bug and such changes should be discussed on a mailing list where you will get comments on and not a bug tracker. the way to do that would be to copy some templates in the user directory, note that doing that automatically when adding an user has been decided against before because it's specific to GNOME and users doing server installation don't want those template for example. Could we have a different state for this kind of things in Launchpad? A lot of people get offended by invalid, since they assume that the bug is being ignored. For example being discussed with a pointer to the discussion or finding a new home when the bug is not against the correct product and the new one has not been decided yet. Where could I propose this kind of thing? -Mikko -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Empty Create Document menu
Hi, After 3 years of discussion it looks like Ubuntu is still going to ship with empty Create Document menu in Nautilus. This menu should be populated which choices Create text file, Create OpenOffice Writer document and so on. Bug #23332 was marked as invalid. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus/+bug/23332 and here is discussion about the matter http://mail.gnome.org/archives/nautilus-list/2008-June/msg00123.html This is one of these things were discussion led to nowhere. The last word was no we are not going to do anything for this because there could be possible abuse by software packagers and such. This is a bit unflattering for the end users. I'd rather have this very handy usability feature on the risk of hypothetical abuse. I can clean up my menu if my evil Linux software vendors try to clutter it up. This is a very visible bug (feature) to all users coming from other operating systems/distributions. Could we at least remove Create Document menu if it's going to be unsupported? -- Mikko Ohtamaa www.redinnovation.com -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Empty Create Document menu
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 10:39 AM, Mikko Ohtamaa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can clean up my menu if my evil Linux software vendors try to clutter it up. Yeah, if you have root privelidges to remove said templates from a global directory. This is fine if you're working on a single user machine and you're the admin. Really really bad if you're on any multiuser machine, be it in a corporate environment or just the kid of an Ubuntu dad who really likes his 40 global templates. This is a very visible bug (feature) to all users coming from other operating systems/distributions. Could we at least remove Create Document menu if it's going to be unsupported? It's perfectly supported as designed. Put some template in ~/Templates and enjoy. If you want to push it to new users, put it in /etc/skel/Templates and every new user gets them. Choice of menu items vs. Compulsory menu options. Hmm, tough choice eh? -A. Walton -- Mikko Ohtamaa www.redinnovation.com -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Empty Create Document menu
A. Walton [2008-10-29 11:10 -0400]: On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 10:39 AM, Mikko Ohtamaa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can clean up my menu if my evil Linux software vendors try to clutter it up. Yeah, if you have root privelidges to remove said templates from a global directory. This is fine if you're working on a single user machine and you're the admin. Really really bad if you're on any multiuser machine, be it in a corporate environment or just the kid of an Ubuntu dad who really likes his 40 global templates. There is no reason why GNOME shouldn't be able to override those in your user configuration. I don't really buy the original argument. Right now, it's not really an useful thing to put into the context menu in the first place. So if we see that abuse actually starts to happen in Ubuntu packages, then heck, it's not like it was impossible to fix those packages to throw them out again. Martin -- Martin Pitt| http://www.piware.de Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org) -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Empty Create Document menu
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 5:21 PM, petr bug [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps if we add item Add or Remove Templates... to the bottom of the list which would open Nautilus with the directory. That sounds like a good idea, but perhaps it could then give a list of templates for programs you have installed? So any program could add their template to the list and yet it wouldn't clutter up the menu. Also if that would be implemented, I would rather have the directory hidden (in ~/.config or something). It has always felt like a really odd thing in the user directory. Wouter. -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Empty Create Document menu
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 12:21 PM, petr bug [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Basically I see the Create Document menu equivalent (in abuse-ability sense) to the Main Menu (the one in top left for launching all the applications). Any package or user that can add item there can abuse it. So if ugly distro or super-user clutter either of the menus then super-user can clean it up using command line (kinda works now). If the user lacks super-user capability then there is a difference: the Main Menu has unprivileged mechanism (the Main Menu editor, in Preferences/Main Menu) for disabling items while Create Document does not. 2008/10/29 A. Walton [EMAIL PROTECTED]: It's perfectly supported as designed. Put some template in ~/Templates and enjoy. If you want to push it to new users, put it in /etc/skel/Templates and every new user gets them. Where can user put the templates? To ~/Templates dir? No way, he/she does not know that information! Seems you do though. Funny how we don't give users credit for being able to find out even the most trivial of trivialities. Perhaps we should Retitle it Create Document from ~/Template to waste even more screen pixels? Perhaps if we add item Add or Remove Templates... to the bottom of the list which would open Nautilus with the directory. Or perhaps it could open editor similar to the Main Menu editor. This may also solve the problem when new application is installed and a new template is created in /etc/skel/Templates but existing users do not see the template. Choice of menu items vs. Compulsory menu options. Hmm, tough choice eh? [flame on] That's the GNOME philosophy - a feature was made not configurable to make it just simple, if user does not like it then bad luck. [flame off] It's perfectly configurable the way it is. Open a folder, drag and drop. Sure, we could add a dialog with a list of checkboxes, a button or two to add and remove templates, and have the users go in hit a few knobs and turn off the links, but that seems like a hilariously ludicrous workaround for something as easy to manage as a folder of templates. Save the dialog and button twiddling for something that's harder to manage, like which volumes appear on your desktop (as GVFS, Hal aren't as easy to manage as a folder). I personally have no problem seeing Ubuntu ship a few default templates in /etc/skel/. From my GNOME point of view, I think it'd be a healthy thing to do, and I think distros have the good sense to manage what they put in there, even though it's not recommended. From my Ubuntu point of view, if it makes users more likely to use it, then by all means put in a few (and maybe one that says Delete this file if you don't want this menu entry anymore). -A. Walton -- Petr -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Empty Create Document menu
2008/10/29 A. Walton [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 12:21 PM, petr bug [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/10/29 A. Walton [EMAIL PROTECTED]: It's perfectly supported as designed. Put some template in ~/Templates and enjoy. If you want to push it to new users, put it in /etc/skel/Templates and every new user gets them. Where can user put the templates? To ~/Templates dir? No way, he/she does not know that information! Seems you do though. I (as a C programmer) did not know that such directory exist yesterday. Ordinary users are even less likely to know since they generally do not have computer science degree. I (as a accountant who does nothing with computers) still do not know. Funny how we don't give users credit for being able to find out even the most trivial of trivialities. How can user know where the directory is or where to find out where it is described? It is not mentioned in standards.freedesktop.org. Search for gnome templates finds something but it is not a howto. How can user know that gnome templates are the right keywords? The do not know what gnome is or that the feature is really template. End even then: why should people search webs for something that they already have before their eyes? Choice of menu items vs. Compulsory menu options. Hmm, tough choice eh? [flame on] That's the GNOME philosophy - a feature was made not configurable to make it just simple, if user does not like it then bad luck. [flame off] It's perfectly configurable the way it is. Open a folder, drag and drop. Again, open which folder? Of course, if user knows what directory it is then it is easy. Dialog with check boxes will be even easier. Save the dialog and button twiddling for something that's harder to manage, like which volumes appear on your desktop (as GVFS, Hal aren't as easy to manage as a folder). I do not see why we can not have both dialogs. They do not compete. -- Petr -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Empty Create Document menu
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 2:26 PM, petr bug [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/10/29 A. Walton [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 12:21 PM, petr bug [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/10/29 A. Walton [EMAIL PROTECTED]: It's perfectly supported as designed. Put some template in ~/Templates and enjoy. If you want to push it to new users, put it in /etc/skel/Templates and every new user gets them. Where can user put the templates? To ~/Templates dir? No way, he/she does not know that information! Seems you do though. I (as a C programmer) did not know that such directory exist yesterday. Ordinary users are even less likely to know since they generally do not have computer science degree. I (as a accountant who does nothing with computers) still do not know. You do not need to be a C programmer nor do you need a computer science degree to open your home folder and see a folder named Templates, wonderfully translated into the language you read. And you do know, as you just told me what directory it was yourself an email ago. Funny how we don't give users credit for being able to find out even the most trivial of trivialities. How can user know where the directory is or where to find out where it is described? So here's the problem indicated here: it's not discoverable enough of a feature. So why don't we talk about why it's not discoverable, and try to solve that problem? We can add some documentation to point people here in Help, for example. This is a very good reason to file a bug, like this one I just filed for you: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=558435 Feel free to add your notes or suggestions to how we can make this more discoverable. Of course, if user knows what directory it is then it is easy. Dialog with check boxes will be even easier. Save the dialog and button twiddling for something that's harder to manage, like which volumes appear on your desktop (as GVFS, Hal aren't as easy to manage as a folder). I do not see why we can not have both dialogs. They do not compete. They compete for time, from people like me and you, time in bugs, time in I/O, and on. They distract us from real issues, like one I pointed out. We have better ways to spend our time working on Nautilus. It's a very nasty solution to a very trivial problem, which is the entire point I was making. -A. Walton -- Petr -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
