Re: DNS caching disabled for 12.10...still

2012-10-17 Thread Marc Deslauriers 
On 12-10-17 04:34 AM, Daniel J Blueman wrote:
> On 17 October 2012 16:18, Benjamin Kerensa  wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 12:59 AM, Jordon Bedwell 
>>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Colin Watson  wrote:
 For example, it allows changing nameservers reliably without having to
 restart applications, and allows us to dispatch DNS queries on different
 links depending on the domain (consider VPNs).
>>>
>>> Could there not be an option inside of NM that enables and disables
>>> DNS caching (or even on the right click menu for example, where we can
>>> easily disable networks on our laptops.) Maybe it could even be
>>> expanded to do except so you can disable the caching per interface
>>> too.
> 
>> There could be an option but if I remember correctly we sync network-manager
>> from upstream so a change like that would likely be best made upstream.
> 
> Above all, the way to address this is to share the reasoning of why
> DNS caching was disabled with the upstream NetworkManager and dnsmasq
> authors.
> 

DNS caching was disabled for security reasons, among others, mainly
because using the same cache for all users allows one user to know where
other users have been by probing the cache, and because it is trivial to
poison the cache when you're a local user and can inspect information
available locally such as source ports. In a multi-user system, caching
needs to be done with a separate cache per user.

Marc.


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Re: DNS caching disabled for 12.10...still

2012-10-17 Thread Daniel J Blueman 
On 17 October 2012 16:18, Benjamin Kerensa  wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 12:59 AM, Jordon Bedwell 
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Colin Watson  wrote:
>> > For example, it allows changing nameservers reliably without having to
>> > restart applications, and allows us to dispatch DNS queries on different
>> > links depending on the domain (consider VPNs).
>>
>> Could there not be an option inside of NM that enables and disables
>> DNS caching (or even on the right click menu for example, where we can
>> easily disable networks on our laptops.) Maybe it could even be
>> expanded to do except so you can disable the caching per interface
>> too.

> There could be an option but if I remember correctly we sync network-manager
> from upstream so a change like that would likely be best made upstream.

Above all, the way to address this is to share the reasoning of why
DNS caching was disabled with the upstream NetworkManager and dnsmasq
authors.

At least there's a chance to document, ratify and address any issues
openly, but alas this did not occur.

Daniel
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Re: DNS caching disabled for 12.10...still

2012-10-17 Thread Benjamin Kerensa 
On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 12:59 AM, Jordon Bedwell wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Colin Watson  wrote:
> > For example, it allows changing nameservers reliably without having to
> > restart applications, and allows us to dispatch DNS queries on different
> > links depending on the domain (consider VPNs).
>
> Could there not be an option inside of NM that enables and disables
> DNS caching (or even on the right click menu for example, where we can
> easily disable networks on our laptops.) Maybe it could even be
> expanded to do except so you can disable the caching per interface
> too.
>

There could be an option but if I remember correctly we sync
network-manager from upstream so a change like that would likely be best
made upstream.

Correct me if I'm wrong someone?


>
> I actually like that idea, I wish I had time to look into helping
> implement something like this.
>
>

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Re: DNS caching disabled for 12.10...still

2012-10-17 Thread Jordon Bedwell 
On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Colin Watson  wrote:
> For example, it allows changing nameservers reliably without having to
> restart applications, and allows us to dispatch DNS queries on different
> links depending on the domain (consider VPNs).

Could there not be an option inside of NM that enables and disables
DNS caching (or even on the right click menu for example, where we can
easily disable networks on our laptops.) Maybe it could even be
expanded to do except so you can disable the caching per interface
too.

I actually like that idea, I wish I had time to look into helping
implement something like this.

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Re: DNS caching disabled for 12.10...still

2012-10-17 Thread Colin Watson 
On Sun, Oct 07, 2012 at 01:13:14PM -1000, Paul Graydon wrote:
> If DNS caching is being disabled in dnsmasq, what value is being had
> from using dnsmasq by default with network connections?  Seems like
> it just presents another potential failure point.

For example, it allows changing nameservers reliably without having to
restart applications, and allows us to dispatch DNS queries on different
links depending on the domain (consider VPNs).

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Re: DNS caching disabled for 12.10...still

2012-10-08 Thread Daniel J Blueman 
On 8 October 2012 13:24, Jordon Bedwell  wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 10:47 PM, Daniel J Blueman  wrote:
>> Can you elaborate the specific reasons/mechanisms why without per-user
>> caching, dnsmasq is still a security weakness? At least these views
>> should be shared upstream so we can work on resolving the issues.
>
> It's a subjective security issue IMO.  Pretty flawed in some cases, in
> others it sounds like the guy who only pokes the bear while it's in
> the cage and if the cage is nowhere to be found then it's game over,
> won't even go near it.  What I am saying is for the average user it's
> a case of why are you letting them on your PC at all if you do not
> have a single ounce of trust and absolutely need per-user caching
> because you fear they will attempt to poison you.  For other
> environments it's another situation but those environments are the
> rule apparently and not the exception... even though they are the
> minority IMO.

Subjective of not, there was a list of reasons which will added up to
"let's disable it"; I really think we should get this list
(particularly since upstream and other distros allow the caching) and
reevaluate. It's too late for the release, sure.

Anyone?

Daniel
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Re: DNS caching disabled for 12.10...still

2012-10-08 Thread Daniel J Blueman 
On 8 October 2012 21:10, Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre  wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 11:35 PM, Daniel J Blueman  wrote:
> [...]
>> Good tip on the workaround, Mathieu. Looks like this doesn't work in
>> Ubuntu 12.10 pre-release here:
>>
>> # echo cache-size=400 >/etc/NetworkManager/dnsmasq.d/cache
>> 
>> $ ps -ef | grep dnsmasq
>> nobody2057  1128  0 11:29 ?00:00:00 /usr/sbin/dnsmasq
>> --no-resolv --keep-in-foreground --no-hosts --bind-interfaces
>> --pid-file=/var/run/sendsigs.omit.d/network-manager.dnsmasq.pid
>> --listen-address=127.0.1.1 --conf-file=/var/run/nm-dns-dnsmasq.conf
>> --cache-size=0 --proxy-dnssec
>> --enable-dbus=org.freedesktop.NetworkManager.dnsmasq
>> --conf-dir=/etc/NetworkManager/dnsmasq.d
>
> You can't see it on the command-line. Things are evaluated in order;
> command-line parameters first, up to the --conf-dir parameter, and
> then the files in that directory will be looked at and configuration
> taken into account. However, it won't change the actual command-line
> for the application, since it's indeed how it was started.
>
> To see the result, you'll want to kill dnsmasq with the SIGUSR1 signal
> -- this will force it to write out statistics to syslog. This is also
> the way to list the nameservers used by dnsmasq.

Great; adding this file back in, caching is working as expected.

Thanks,
  Daniel
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Re: DNS caching disabled for 12.10...still

2012-10-08 Thread Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre 
On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 11:35 PM, Daniel J Blueman  wrote:
[...]
> Good tip on the workaround, Mathieu. Looks like this doesn't work in
> Ubuntu 12.10 pre-release here:
>
> # echo cache-size=400 >/etc/NetworkManager/dnsmasq.d/cache
> 
> $ ps -ef | grep dnsmasq
> nobody2057  1128  0 11:29 ?00:00:00 /usr/sbin/dnsmasq
> --no-resolv --keep-in-foreground --no-hosts --bind-interfaces
> --pid-file=/var/run/sendsigs.omit.d/network-manager.dnsmasq.pid
> --listen-address=127.0.1.1 --conf-file=/var/run/nm-dns-dnsmasq.conf
> --cache-size=0 --proxy-dnssec
> --enable-dbus=org.freedesktop.NetworkManager.dnsmasq
> --conf-dir=/etc/NetworkManager/dnsmasq.d
>

You can't see it on the command-line. Things are evaluated in order;
command-line parameters first, up to the --conf-dir parameter, and
then the files in that directory will be looked at and configuration
taken into account. However, it won't change the actual command-line
for the application, since it's indeed how it was started.

To see the result, you'll want to kill dnsmasq with the SIGUSR1 signal
-- this will force it to write out statistics to syslog. This is also
the way to list the nameservers used by dnsmasq.

Regards,

Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre 
Freenode: cyphermox, Jabber: mathieu...@gmail.com
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Re: DNS caching disabled for 12.10...still

2012-10-07 Thread Jordon Bedwell 
On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 10:47 PM, Daniel J Blueman  wrote:
> Can you elaborate the specific reasons/mechanisms why without per-user
> caching, dnsmasq is still a security weakness? At least these views
> should be shared upstream so we can work on resolving the issues.

It's a subjective security issue IMO.  Pretty flawed in some cases, in
others it sounds like the guy who only pokes the bear while it's in
the cage and if the cage is nowhere to be found then it's game over,
won't even go near it.  What I am saying is for the average user it's
a case of why are you letting them on your PC at all if you do not
have a single ounce of trust and absolutely need per-user caching
because you fear they will attempt to poison you.  For other
environments it's another situation but those environments are the
rule apparently and not the exception... even though they are the
minority IMO.

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Re: DNS caching disabled for 12.10...still

2012-10-07 Thread Daniel J Blueman 
On 8 October 2012 03:19, Stéphane Graber  wrote:
> On 10/07/2012 04:32 AM, Benjamin Kerensa wrote:
>> On Oct 7, 2012 12:28 AM, "Daniel J Blueman" > > wrote:
>>>
>>> DNS caching was previously disabled [1] when dnsmasq was introduced in
>>> 12.04 (one of the benefits), "to prevent privacy issues, and to
>>> prevent local users from spying on source ports and trivially
>>> performing a birthday attack in order to poison the cache".
>>>
>>> Since dnsmasq eg introduced the standard port-randomisation
>>> mitigations [2] for Birthday attacks in 2008 and related hardening,
>>> what are the other technical reasons we should still keep this
>>> disablement, despite upstream keeping DNS caching enabled? (ie should
>>> upstream also disable DNS caching?)
>>>
>>> Of course, the impact of disabling DNS caching is considerable.
[...]
>> Good points it does look like hardening and addressing some of the
>> concerns has occurred it is possible perhaps that enabling caching was
>> just overlooked but either way it would be nice to see it enabled in 13.04.
>
> dnsmasq still doesn't support per-user caching so it still doesn't meet
> the criteria we discussed with the security team last cycle and as such
> as kept in its current configuration.

Presumably per-user caching doesn't solve the root issues though.

Can you elaborate the specific reasons/mechanisms why without per-user
caching, dnsmasq is still a security weakness? At least these views
should be shared upstream so we can work on resolving the issues.

Thanks,
  Daniel
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Re: DNS caching disabled for 12.10...still

2012-10-07 Thread Daniel J Blueman 
On 8 October 2012 08:27, Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre  wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Stéphane Graber  wrote:
>> On 10/07/2012 04:32 AM, Benjamin Kerensa wrote:
>>> On Oct 7, 2012 12:28 AM, "Daniel J Blueman" >> > wrote:

 DNS caching was previously disabled [1] when dnsmasq was introduced in
 12.04 (one of the benefits), "to prevent privacy issues, and to
 prevent local users from spying on source ports and trivially
 performing a birthday attack in order to poison the cache".

 Since dnsmasq eg introduced the standard port-randomisation
 mitigations [2] for Birthday attacks in 2008 and related hardening,
 what are the other technical reasons we should still keep this
 disablement, despite upstream keeping DNS caching enabled? (ie should
 upstream also disable DNS caching?)

 Of course, the impact of disabling DNS caching is considerable.
> [...]
>>>
>>> Good points it does look like hardening and addressing some of the
>>> concerns has occurred it is possible perhaps that enabling caching was
>>> just overlooked but either way it would be nice to see it enabled in 13.04.
>>
>> dnsmasq still doesn't support per-user caching so it still doesn't meet
>> the criteria we discussed with the security team last cycle and as such
>> as kept in its current configuration.
>
> With the small difference that you can now actually enable caching
> should you choose to disregard the security implications. You can do
> so by adding a file in /etc/NetworkManager/dnsmasq.d containing
> "cache-size=n" where n is the size you want to use (default in dnsmasq
> is 150, and set to 400 in NM upstream). The name of the file doesn't
> matter.

Good tip on the workaround, Mathieu. Looks like this doesn't work in
Ubuntu 12.10 pre-release here:

# echo cache-size=400 >/etc/NetworkManager/dnsmasq.d/cache

$ ps -ef | grep dnsmasq
nobody2057  1128  0 11:29 ?00:00:00 /usr/sbin/dnsmasq
--no-resolv --keep-in-foreground --no-hosts --bind-interfaces
--pid-file=/var/run/sendsigs.omit.d/network-manager.dnsmasq.pid
--listen-address=127.0.1.1 --conf-file=/var/run/nm-dns-dnsmasq.conf
--cache-size=0 --proxy-dnssec
--enable-dbus=org.freedesktop.NetworkManager.dnsmasq
--conf-dir=/etc/NetworkManager/dnsmasq.d

Let me know if it would help to raise a bug report, and I'll analyse it.

Thanks,
  Daniel
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Re: DNS caching disabled for 12.10...still

2012-10-07 Thread Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre 
On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Stéphane Graber  wrote:
> On 10/07/2012 04:32 AM, Benjamin Kerensa wrote:
>>
>> On Oct 7, 2012 12:28 AM, "Daniel J Blueman" > > wrote:
>>>
>>> DNS caching was previously disabled [1] when dnsmasq was introduced in
>>> 12.04 (one of the benefits), "to prevent privacy issues, and to
>>> prevent local users from spying on source ports and trivially
>>> performing a birthday attack in order to poison the cache".
>>>
>>> Since dnsmasq eg introduced the standard port-randomisation
>>> mitigations [2] for Birthday attacks in 2008 and related hardening,
>>> what are the other technical reasons we should still keep this
>>> disablement, despite upstream keeping DNS caching enabled? (ie should
>>> upstream also disable DNS caching?)
>>>
>>> Of course, the impact of disabling DNS caching is considerable.
[...]
>>
>> Good points it does look like hardening and addressing some of the
>> concerns has occurred it is possible perhaps that enabling caching was
>> just overlooked but either way it would be nice to see it enabled in 13.04.
>
> dnsmasq still doesn't support per-user caching so it still doesn't meet
> the criteria we discussed with the security team last cycle and as such
> as kept in its current configuration.
>

With the small difference that you can now actually enable caching
should you choose to disregard the security implications. You can do
so by adding a file in /etc/NetworkManager/dnsmasq.d containing
"cache-size=n" where n is the size you want to use (default in dnsmasq
is 150, and set to 400 in NM upstream). The name of the file doesn't
matter.


Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre 
Freenode: cyphermox, Jabber: mathieu...@gmail.com
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Re: DNS caching disabled for 12.10...still

2012-10-07 Thread Paul Graydon 
If DNS caching is being disabled in dnsmasq, what value is being had 
from using dnsmasq by default with network connections?  Seems like it 
just presents another potential failure point.


On 10/07/2012 09:19 AM, Stéphane Graber wrote:

On 10/07/2012 04:32 AM, Benjamin Kerensa wrote:

On Oct 7, 2012 12:28 AM, "Daniel J Blueman" mailto:dan...@quora.org>> wrote:

DNS caching was previously disabled [1] when dnsmasq was introduced in
12.04 (one of the benefits), "to prevent privacy issues, and to
prevent local users from spying on source ports and trivially
performing a birthday attack in order to poison the cache".

Since dnsmasq eg introduced the standard port-randomisation
mitigations [2] for Birthday attacks in 2008 and related hardening,
what are the other technical reasons we should still keep this
disablement, despite upstream keeping DNS caching enabled? (ie should
upstream also disable DNS caching?)

Of course, the impact of disabling DNS caching is considerable.

Thanks!
   Daniel

[1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/903854
[2]

http://lists.thekelleys.org.uk/pipermail/dnsmasq-discuss/2008q3/002148.html

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Daniel J Blueman


Good points it does look like hardening and addressing some of the
concerns has occurred it is possible perhaps that enabling caching was
just overlooked but either way it would be nice to see it enabled in 13.04.

dnsmasq still doesn't support per-user caching so it still doesn't meet
the criteria we discussed with the security team last cycle and as such
as kept in its current configuration.






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Re: DNS caching disabled for 12.10...still

2012-10-07 Thread Stéphane Graber 
On 10/07/2012 04:32 AM, Benjamin Kerensa wrote:
> 
> On Oct 7, 2012 12:28 AM, "Daniel J Blueman"  > wrote:
>>
>> DNS caching was previously disabled [1] when dnsmasq was introduced in
>> 12.04 (one of the benefits), "to prevent privacy issues, and to
>> prevent local users from spying on source ports and trivially
>> performing a birthday attack in order to poison the cache".
>>
>> Since dnsmasq eg introduced the standard port-randomisation
>> mitigations [2] for Birthday attacks in 2008 and related hardening,
>> what are the other technical reasons we should still keep this
>> disablement, despite upstream keeping DNS caching enabled? (ie should
>> upstream also disable DNS caching?)
>>
>> Of course, the impact of disabling DNS caching is considerable.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>   Daniel
>>
>> [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/903854
>> [2]
> http://lists.thekelleys.org.uk/pipermail/dnsmasq-discuss/2008q3/002148.html
>> --
>> Daniel J Blueman
>>
> 
> Good points it does look like hardening and addressing some of the
> concerns has occurred it is possible perhaps that enabling caching was
> just overlooked but either way it would be nice to see it enabled in 13.04.

dnsmasq still doesn't support per-user caching so it still doesn't meet
the criteria we discussed with the security team last cycle and as such
as kept in its current configuration.


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Re: DNS caching disabled for 12.10...still

2012-10-07 Thread Benjamin Kerensa 
On Oct 7, 2012 12:28 AM, "Daniel J Blueman"  wrote:
>
> DNS caching was previously disabled [1] when dnsmasq was introduced in
> 12.04 (one of the benefits), "to prevent privacy issues, and to
> prevent local users from spying on source ports and trivially
> performing a birthday attack in order to poison the cache".
>
> Since dnsmasq eg introduced the standard port-randomisation
> mitigations [2] for Birthday attacks in 2008 and related hardening,
> what are the other technical reasons we should still keep this
> disablement, despite upstream keeping DNS caching enabled? (ie should
> upstream also disable DNS caching?)
>
> Of course, the impact of disabling DNS caching is considerable.
>
> Thanks!
>   Daniel
>
> [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/903854
> [2]
http://lists.thekelleys.org.uk/pipermail/dnsmasq-discuss/2008q3/002148.html
> --
> Daniel J Blueman
>

Good points it does look like hardening and addressing some of the concerns
has occurred it is possible perhaps that enabling caching was just
overlooked but either way it would be nice to see it enabled in 13.04.
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DNS caching disabled for 12.10...still

2012-10-07 Thread Daniel J Blueman 
DNS caching was previously disabled [1] when dnsmasq was introduced in
12.04 (one of the benefits), "to prevent privacy issues, and to
prevent local users from spying on source ports and trivially
performing a birthday attack in order to poison the cache".

Since dnsmasq eg introduced the standard port-randomisation
mitigations [2] for Birthday attacks in 2008 and related hardening,
what are the other technical reasons we should still keep this
disablement, despite upstream keeping DNS caching enabled? (ie should
upstream also disable DNS caching?)

Of course, the impact of disabling DNS caching is considerable.

Thanks!
  Daniel

[1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/903854
[2] http://lists.thekelleys.org.uk/pipermail/dnsmasq-discuss/2008q3/002148.html
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