Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

[ttoine]

>
> Many users act as if they had paid for the distro/SW/whatever and must be
> served on a 24/7 basis within seconds of saying "hello". They are not
> willing to read anything, but rather expect to talk to some real person.
> Then they expect that person to guess their setup (ESP?) and do not like to
> be told "that won't work". Many of these queries can only be answered by
> people who understand the technical side of things... and these people get
> worn out.
>
> We need tools to help ease this.
>

Right ! That is why I propose to have everything in the same place instead
of having to go on many websites.
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] "elementary OS" ... ONE Ubuntustudio user's thoughts ...

[ttoine]

I don't think we need to blacklist.

Maybe we should just recommend some hardware and software that we know are
using. Less is more.


Antoine THOMAS
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2015-09-07 20:03 GMT+02:00 Ralf Mardorf :

> What about a 2 pages on the Ubuntu Studio website. One to black and
> whitelist plugins and another to balck and whitelist hardware.
>
> Plugin name:
> Host name
> Ubuntu release:
> Package version host:
> Package version plugin:
> Description:
>
> Hardware:
> Ubuntu Release:
> Kernel version:
> Firmware version:
> Description:
>
> Without the need to have an account to post such a report.
>
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] "elementary OS" ... ONE Ubuntustudio user's thoughts ...

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 10:51:46 +0200, ttoine wrote:
>I don't think we need to blacklist.
>
>Maybe we should just recommend some hardware and software that we know
>are using. Less is more.

The problem could be exotic revisions of hardware. Revision 1, 2, 3 and
4a might work, but revision 4b doesn't work for all purposes. This might
happen not that often. Right off the bat I remember a Microlink 56k
modem, a donation from a Windows user. I could use the modem for
Internet access, but for some usage it didn't work. Perhaps I couldn't
use it for fax, I don't remember, but I remember that revision 1, 2, 3
and 4 (or similar) were mentioned to work with Linux. It exposed that
revision 4 was split into an a and b version and neither Vendor nor the
Linux community cared about the chipset of this revision.

Regarding hardware recommendations it's important that we not only
mention hardware that might work for our individual usage.

My HDSPe's analog IOs can be used with long latency, but still getting
xruns, but anyway the sound quality is better than provided by most, if
not all prosumer cards. On the same machine it can be used with short
latency on a Windows install. On the Windows and a FreeBSD install
everything works, on Linux ADAT doesn't work with jackd.
Users often don't test all abilities. I for example never tested if
AES/EBU works. Another issue is what does work in wich version.

In general RME devices on other platforms support a lot of features
that aren't available for Linux.

What I absolutely can recommend is an Envy24 PCI device I own, but who
is interested in PCI devices?

Could I recommend the KORGnano KONTROL? Yesno! I own the old version.
For the old version a Linux application exists, but this app can't save
settings. AFAIK for new KORGnano KONTROLs no Linux app is available.

Blacklists are more important than Whitelists.

Often people ask for help to improve their mastering. They use all
kinds of EQ available by plugins. Excepted of Fons' parametric EQ, I
would blacklist all other Linux EQs I know, at least for audio
production. Most EQs simply don't do what they should do.

If you follow Linux audio mailing lists, you might have noticed that
each week at least one user reports a crash caused by plugins.
Since plugins are provided bundled by packages, it would be good to get
a list to

sudo rm list_of_plugins

It always takes hours, when I search a clean old school ping pong delay.
IIRC only one delay can provide it and it takes tricky settings to get
it. So even a whitelist should provide a description.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Another new user request...

[Set Hallstrom]

On 2015-09-08 01:20, Len Ovens wrote:
> 
> https://community.ardour.org/node/8986
> 
> Also note the "It was really easy to get going on Ubuntu 14.02 LTS."
> 

This is a great way to go. Compiling answers and tutorials that can be
achieved with the software included in ubustu on the website is a good
way to gather people who actively search for alternatives. Holstein gave
me a great advice yesterday while patiently tech supporting me,
something in the lines of: "set up a scenario to control the
parameters". And in this threads context, these pages hit my memory:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows/Video
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows/Graphics
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows/Audio
etc..

Something in the lines of scenarios like those: "create a flyer",
"Print a CD sleeve", "Convert a video", should be easy to find and
access for newcomers. I will try furbish those wiki pages with youtube
links and ressources, see if it is something worth having...

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

[ttoine]

>
> At least what already is provided for smart phone applications
> that cost less than 10$/10€.
>

 -> you want to create a company to support a basic set of software and
plugins on Linux, for 10$/year/people ? I think we might actually find
interested people for that. But, we can't use the Ubuntu Studio name !
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 10:58:17 +0200, ttoine wrote:
>>
>> At least what already is provided for smart phone applications
>> that cost less than 10$/10€.
>>
>
> -> you want to create a company to support a basic set of software and
>plugins on Linux, for 10$/year/people ? I think we might actually find
>interested people for that. But, we can't use the Ubuntu Studio name !

No, I don't want to provide anything, I only mention what users are used
to.

They read "the most flexible mixer architecture in the industry,
hundreds of plugins, and external control surfaces" and expect
improvement when they use it, compared of what they use on other
platforms, but what they actually get is an unfinished mixer, they
need to set up the mixer on their own, a DAW that crashes caused by
bad plugins, tracks that disappear during work etc..

However, the point is, that there is the need to provide something,
that doesn't exist at the moment. What's missing for Ubuntu Studio or
any other distro isn't bad PR, it's software and hardware.

For Linux a lot of software is missing. At best you can use Ardour for
hard disk recording, with a usable latency compensation, but you can't
use it as a sequencer. At best you can use Qtractor as a sequencer, but
it doesn't provide usable latency compensation for audio recordings.
Both apps provide mixers with pitfalls, and no mixer is really a mixer,
they are building blocks. At least an EQ should become default for each
track. Btw. I'm not asking audio engineers, I'm one myself: For an
averaged mixing console's channel, belongs the EQ pre or post fader?
What kind of EQ makes sense for a mixer channel? When do you need pre
and when do you need post aux?

I know the answers, I'm an engineer. Does a musician know the answer
too?

There are professional standards, nobody needs the "the most flexible
mixer", users expect a standard mixer.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 21:50:28 +0200, Jimmy Sjölund wrote:
>So, who or how to decide what is good enough? There is no distinct  
>definition for that.

Would you add something that could be the tone control of a hifi amp
into a mixer channel for audio production?

I would use Fons' parametric EQ for the mixer channels, but avoid
DJ EQ. I won't sort out DJ EQ, but while Fons' EQ should be a
dependency of a meta-package "pro-audio", DJ EQ should belong to a
meta-package "audio". Some EQs likely would fail measurements. I can't
do measurements, but I suspect we hear when EQs behave unexpected when
mixing. I wouldn't sort them out, as long as they don't do something
harmful as making a host crash, but I would sort them to a meta-package
"audio" instead of "pro-audio". Perhaps the plugins that belong to
different meta-packages should be installed to different paths, so that
a user could install all packages, but by selecting the path decide if
they show up in a host. I fear that some packages already bundle useful
and crappy plugins, so assigning packages to meta-packages might not be
enough. Some packages perhaps need to be split into "good" and "bad"
plugins.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

[Jimmy Sjölund]

On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 4:59 PM, Ralf Mardorf 
wrote:

> On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 15:45:41 +0200, ttoine wrote:
> >So, really, I think instead trying to support everything, package
> >everything, we should focus on what we know is working. And maintain
> >it, make it clear that Ubuntu Studio is now focused to make things
> >working.
>
> Ok, here we agree. For plugins it's not only to consider to sort out
> bad ones, but also to separate plugins usable for production, from those
> who are ok, but not good for audio production.
>
> So, who or how to decide what is good enough? There is no distinct
definition for that.
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

[ttoine]

>
> However, the point is, that there is the need to provide something,
> that doesn't exist at the moment. What's missing for Ubuntu Studio or
> any other distro isn't bad PR, it's software and hardware.
>

That is totally the puropose of this thread, Ralf. We need to answer what
is available, and with our knowledge (we have a lot of experience and
knowledge).

In term of free software, yes, the offer is poor. But some great stuff are
available:
 - Ardour
 - LMMS (equivalent of Fruity loops, not of Ableton Live)
 - Qtractor
 - Kdenlive
 - Cinerella
 - Blender
 - Gimp
 - Inkscape
 - Scribus
 - Some plugins are very good, some bad, let's highlight the good ones.
Most of people have a lot of free and cracked plugins, but actually are
using only a few ones. And even on Windows and Mac, plugins can make a
sequencer crash, they are used to it.
 - Do someone know if we could package and distribute Open AV apps ?

Those are not finished products, they are open source projects. However, it
is possible to achieve the creation of great content when you know how to
use them. Some projects at the moment are focused on using 100% free
software to achieve a motion picture + soundtrack. Blender Velvets plugins
come from this king of project.

On the non free software side, there are:
 - Mixbus
 - Lightworks
 - Bitwig (equivalent of Live, made by former Ableton employees)
 - Many people own licenses, and have hardware for that. We need to attract
them with a simple and stable system. With a place where they can find
documentation and support.
 - Let's highlight them !

To have spent time in studios and working on a regular basis with sound
engineers, I saw Pro-Tools or Logic crash in record sessions or in live
performance, because of plugins or because people misuse them. At my work,
we have a lot of issues with the latest Mac osX release in term of
stability. No system has no bug/failure.

Nowadays, with the great work achieved around Ubuntu Server, now leader in
the server world, the stability is good and reknown.

Remember that if many multimedia workstations ran on Unix in the past (e.g:
Silicon Graphics O²) had the same hardware than a Unix server, but with a
sound card and a graphic card.

So, really, I think instead trying to support everything, package
everything, we should focus on what we know is working. And maintain it,
make it clear that Ubuntu Studio is now focused to make things working.

Even if we propose a very restricted list of working hardware, it is better
than nothing. And we can also add a disclaimer "try before you buy".

Again please have a look at the Elementary OS website: simple, with a few
doc, including a list of office applications, a dedicated Stackexchange for
support.
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] "elementary OS" ... ONE Ubuntustudio user's thoughts ...

[ttoine]

> It always takes hours, when I search a clean old school ping pong delay.
> IIRC only one delay can provide it and it takes tricky settings to get
> it. So even a whitelist should provide a description.
>
> That is why having sponsors or money would be great, so we can pay an
audio dev to create some plugins.
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 15:45:41 +0200, ttoine wrote:
>So, really, I think instead trying to support everything, package
>everything, we should focus on what we know is working. And maintain
>it, make it clear that Ubuntu Studio is now focused to make things
>working.

Ok, here we agree. For plugins it's not only to consider to sort out
bad ones, but also to separate plugins usable for production, from those
who are ok, but not good for audio production.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

[lukefromdc]

Those who expect paid service quality are probably better off paying
for it. On the other hand, Windows 10 is so malicious they will need
to pay for 3ed party tech support to stop the spying.

Maybe direct them to a known good Ubuntu or Mint LTS, then to paid
apps that run on it and have paid tech support?  When you use free 
software you are not paying people to staff call centers and provide
24-7 support. You need to bring your own browser, fire up Startpage
or DuckDuckgo, and look for the solution yourself.

When I got dissatisfied with every desktop in existance, instead of 
complaining I started hacking, now some of my work on MATE might
be going to GIT master.

A free community is based on mutual exchange. With things that have
a zero reproduction cost a lot of free riders is fine, but you get out of
free software what you put into it.

On 9/8/2015 at 4:51 AM, "ttoine"  wrote:
>
>>
>> Many users act as if they had paid for the distro/SW/whatever 
>and must be
>> served on a 24/7 basis within seconds of saying "hello". They 
>are not
>> willing to read anything, but rather expect to talk to some real 
>person.
>> Then they expect that person to guess their setup (ESP?) and do 
>not like to
>> be told "that won't work". Many of these queries can only be 
>answered by
>> people who understand the technical side of things... and these 
>people get
>> worn out.
>>
>> We need tools to help ease this.
>>
>
>Right ! That is why I propose to have everything in the same place 
>instead
>of having to go on many websites.


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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Elementary OS

[ttoine]

yes, we agree

Ok, here we agree. For plugins it's not only to consider to sort out
> bad ones, but also to separate plugins usable for production, from those
> who are ok, but not good for audio production.


Do we do that with wordpress on Ubuntustudio.org ?
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Another new user request...

[ttoine]

I have a project at the University of Lyon where we will record a small
band in january or february, both audio and video.

If I get the authorization to make it available in CC-by-sa or equivalent,
for sure, I will make that available for the community.


Antoine THOMAS
Tél: 0663137906

2015-09-08 11:28 GMT+02:00 Set Hallstrom :

> On 2015-09-08 01:20, Len Ovens wrote:
> >
> > https://community.ardour.org/node/8986
> >
> > Also note the "It was really easy to get going on Ubuntu 14.02 LTS."
> >
>
> This is a great way to go. Compiling answers and tutorials that can be
> achieved with the software included in ubustu on the website is a good
> way to gather people who actively search for alternatives. Holstein gave
> me a great advice yesterday while patiently tech supporting me,
> something in the lines of: "set up a scenario to control the
> parameters". And in this threads context, these pages hit my memory:
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows/Video
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows/Graphics
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows/Audio
> etc..
>
> Something in the lines of scenarios like those: "create a flyer",
> "Print a CD sleeve", "Convert a video", should be easy to find and
> access for newcomers. I will try furbish those wiki pages with youtube
> links and ressources, see if it is something worth having...
>
> --
> Set Hallstrom
>
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> ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
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