Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] US still alive !

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Mon, 2 Apr 2018 16:09:24 -0700, Erich Eickmeyer wrote:
>My proposal would be to move from Xfce to MATE

Ubuntu Mate is pretty good these days. It's the distro and desktop
environment I would recommend to users who want something working OOTB
for mailing, browsing and office work and who don't want to go further
into Linux. Actually I'm using Ubuntu Mate 17.10 from a DVD to
backup my Ubuntu and Arch Linux installs and all my data. When making
backups I test different live media from time to time and Ubuntu Mate is
one of the better, if not the best OOTB working Linux.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm using openbox only for my installs.

I'm aware that for Xfce4 changed a lot within the last years. I once
used it myself and for good reasons stopped using it. However, there is
one good reason to stay with Xfce4, as long as it shouldn't become
buggy, bloated or should suffer seriously from anything else.

Users who decided to install Ubuntu Studio are used to Xfce4, migrating
to another desktop environment does break their workflow and it would
be tricky to run do-release-upgrade.

Users who want Ubuntu Studio with another desktop environment or just a
window manager such as openbox, could install another Ubuntu flavour,
even use the server image and install the desired meta-packages, see
https://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=ubuntustudio=names=artful=all
 .

Secondarily one benefit of Xfce4 perhaps still is, that it hopefully
still could be configured from command line by human readable
configurations, by just using an editor, set or echo. From command line
Mate requires usage of gsettings or dconf, so for those users who want
to learn more about Linux, Xfce4 seems to be the better starting point.
IMO people who want to stay with Linux as their operating system,
should learn how the infrastructure works. There's no need to become a
coder, but soon or later it's wise to become a power user through fun,
not by a hard learning curve.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] US still alive !

[lukefromdc]

Moving to MATE would be a great idea., would in my judgement go a long way
to restore the UbuntuStudio of old. Rather close in fact to what ended up doing 
with Debian, with my video and audio programs running over MATE (which I am
a developer at these days) and my updated forks of the old GTK and icon themes.

On 4/2/2018 at 7:09 PM, "Erich Eickmeyer"  wrote:
>
>Hi Len,
>
>> On Apr 2, 2018, at 1:22 PM, Len Ovens  wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, 2 Apr 2018, Thomas Pfundt wrote:
>> 
>>> On April 2, 2018 1:15 PM, Set Hallstrom  
>wrote:
 if you feel you want to set-up a meeting you should feel free 
>to go ahead and do so by inviting everyone to attend on a given 
>date in a given chat room. :)
>>> I have no problem with setting up a meeting, but I don't really 
>feel qualified enough to curate it. I suppose it would be 
>beneficial to have someone with a clear vision on where to pick 
>things up, in a sense.
>> 
>> Just think like you are starting over. Don't be afraid of 
>stepping on people's toes.
>
>There are some that are already taking that attitude, 
>unfortunately. Set is helping me with quite a bit with the 
>handoff, but it seems as though I’m meeting resistance from some.
>
>> While I also don't like Cadence that much (last time I tried it 
>was a long time ago), I am picky and don't use qjackctl for 
>anything other the connections window. I have my own script that 
>does what I happen to want. I had started to mangle ubuntustudio-
>controls in a way that I thought would work best for beginners. It 
>allowed using a USB mic (one of the most common causes of problems 
>these days) by just plugging it in. It handles hot plugged USB 
>audio devices as well as using the internal MB audio along with 
>PCI(e) interfaces. It also allows using the pulse-jack bridge even 
>when jack is set to freerunning. However, I have been too busy to 
>finish it.
>
>This would be amazing. I’m not much of a coder, but if you can 
>find someone to hand that off to, or if you could find the time to 
>finish it (at lest to an alpha stage) that would be great.
>
>> In short, the things that (so far as I know) keep cadence from 
>being better are:
>> 
>> - it does not unload module-udev-detect and module-alsa-card 
>from pulse
>>  (required for reliable pulse-jack bridging)
>> - does not deal with hotpluged USB audio
>> - it does not deal with two or more audio devices
>> 
>
>I totally get that. My goal is to lower the barrier-to-entry. I 
>can’t tell you how long it took me to figure out Jack. In all 
>honesty, Cadence made it easy, especially with the Catia patchbay 
>(much like patchage, but actually maintained).
>
>> Another project that would be great to see added to US is 
>https://github.com/jhernberg/udev-rtirq to replace the standard 
>rtirq.
>> The standard rtirq only works at startup and only with devices 
>that are ready before it runs. udev-rtirq gives hot plugged audio 
>interfaces raised priority as well.
>
>Good to know.
>
>> To add to all that there is something new that will be facing us 
>called pipewire. How well that will work remains to be seen, but 
>the auther at least seems to be talking to the right people and it 
>seems it will not be another pulseaudio replacement that doesn't 
>meet pro-audio needs. (one hopes)
>
>I’ve personally spoken to the developer of Pipewire, and it seems 
>to be a decent replacement and/or augmentation to Jack or to 
>replace Pulseaudio. It’s something that my friend Noah Chelliah 
>(Noah of the Ask Noah Show and formerly of the Linux Action Show) 
>has been watching closely. With my new role here with Ubuntu 
>Studio, I plan on watching Pipewire closely. It has potential to 
>be really good.
>
>> Some people have asked about DE. We have since Gnome2 was 
>depricated, used xfce as being the best replacement so far as 
>usablility, stability, light on CPU. Unity has come and gone \o/ 
>and Gnome session has settled down and will likely become the next 
>ubuntu de (? anyone know?) Also, the average used computer has 
>changed in this time as well (the P$ is not common any more) and 
>ubuntu is even thinking of dropping 32bit CPU support. The purpose 
>for sticking to xfce is perhaps no longer there (though it is stil 
>my personal favourite) and moving to something more standard my be 
>something to look at for the next lts (in two more years). Please 
>remember US is a working flavour, not a casual desktop that needs 
>to work the same as a phone. It has many more applications than an 
>email client and a browser and needs easy ways of discovering them 
>all. I personally have not yet found anything as good the old 
>win95 style dropdown menu (which was designed for the work 
>environment).
>
>> However, also remember that with only a few people helping out, 
>being able to use somebody else to do most of the DE stuff and 
>only add the applications and tweaks on top (in the same way we 
>have been 

Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] US still alive !

[Len Ovens]

On Mon, 2 Apr 2018, Erich Eickmeyer wrote:

I had started to mangle ubuntustudio-controls in a way that I thought 
would work best for beginners. It allowed using a USB mic (one of the 
most common causes of problems these days) by just plugging it in. It 
handles hot plugged USB audio devices as well as using the internal MB 
audio along with PCI(e) interfaces. It also allows using the pulse-jack 
bridge even when jack is set to freerunning. However, I have been too 
busy to finish it.


This would be amazing. I’m not much of a coder, but if you can find 
someone to hand that off to, or if you could find the time to finish it 
(at lest to an alpha stage) that would be great.


Looking at the what has been uploaded so far will give some idea, there is 
a build at: 
https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/ubuntu/autobuild


But I notice no one has updated it to put out 18.04 builds as well. The 
GUI is pretty close to where I was going, but I have done a lot locally 
since then. I should probably do a workaround for where I was stuck at for 
now so it runs :) right now the daemon runs, but the GUI can't talk to it 
on my local version. (my knowlage of dbus in python is just not there)


My proposal would be to move from Xfce to MATE, or even to KDE Plasma 
now that Plasma 5 has reduced resources compared to the way it was 
historically. Ideally, we’d present the user with the option at install, 
but I’m not sure how technically feasible that would be. Either way, 
it’s worthy of discussion, and perhaps even a survey.


gnome3 or mate do not at bother me at this point. KDE however, is 
broken (won't be fixed) for multi-window applications such as Gimp or 
Ardour. KDE does not follow standards in the area of window stacking with 
the result that a window that should be on top may be hidden behind 
something else. As Studio is a working platform with applications that 
tend to more windows rather than fewer, such things are important.


If someone really wishes to use KDE they can install Studio's metas... at 
least that way if complaints are made, it is not officially supported and 
such a user can be refered back to the KDE devs. Maybe if they get enough 
complaints about not supporting standards they will change.



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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] US still alive !

[Erich Eickmeyer]

Hi Len,

> On Apr 2, 2018, at 1:22 PM, Len Ovens  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 2 Apr 2018, Thomas Pfundt wrote:
> 
>> On April 2, 2018 1:15 PM, Set Hallstrom  wrote:
>>> if you feel you want to set-up a meeting you should feel free to go ahead 
>>> and do so by inviting everyone to attend on a given date in a given chat 
>>> room. :)
>> I have no problem with setting up a meeting, but I don't really feel 
>> qualified enough to curate it. I suppose it would be beneficial to have 
>> someone with a clear vision on where to pick things up, in a sense.
> 
> Just think like you are starting over. Don't be afraid of stepping on 
> people's toes.

There are some that are already taking that attitude, unfortunately. Set is 
helping me with quite a bit with the handoff, but it seems as though I’m 
meeting resistance from some.

> While I also don't like Cadence that much (last time I tried it was a long 
> time ago), I am picky and don't use qjackctl for anything other the 
> connections window. I have my own script that does what I happen to want. I 
> had started to mangle ubuntustudio-controls in a way that I thought would 
> work best for beginners. It allowed using a USB mic (one of the most common 
> causes of problems these days) by just plugging it in. It handles hot plugged 
> USB audio devices as well as using the internal MB audio along with PCI(e) 
> interfaces. It also allows using the pulse-jack bridge even when jack is set 
> to freerunning. However, I have been too busy to finish it.

This would be amazing. I’m not much of a coder, but if you can find someone to 
hand that off to, or if you could find the time to finish it (at lest to an 
alpha stage) that would be great.

> In short, the things that (so far as I know) keep cadence from being better 
> are:
> 
> - it does not unload module-udev-detect and module-alsa-card from pulse
>   (required for reliable pulse-jack bridging)
> - does not deal with hotpluged USB audio
> - it does not deal with two or more audio devices
> 

I totally get that. My goal is to lower the barrier-to-entry. I can’t tell you 
how long it took me to figure out Jack. In all honesty, Cadence made it easy, 
especially with the Catia patchbay (much like patchage, but actually 
maintained).

> Another project that would be great to see added to US is 
> https://github.com/jhernberg/udev-rtirq to replace the standard rtirq.
> The standard rtirq only works at startup and only with devices that are ready 
> before it runs. udev-rtirq gives hot plugged audio interfaces raised priority 
> as well.

Good to know.

> To add to all that there is something new that will be facing us called 
> pipewire. How well that will work remains to be seen, but the auther at least 
> seems to be talking to the right people and it seems it will not be another 
> pulseaudio replacement that doesn't meet pro-audio needs. (one hopes)

I’ve personally spoken to the developer of Pipewire, and it seems to be a 
decent replacement and/or augmentation to Jack or to replace Pulseaudio. It’s 
something that my friend Noah Chelliah (Noah of the Ask Noah Show and formerly 
of the Linux Action Show) has been watching closely. With my new role here with 
Ubuntu Studio, I plan on watching Pipewire closely. It has potential to be 
really good.

> Some people have asked about DE. We have since Gnome2 was depricated, used 
> xfce as being the best replacement so far as usablility, stability, light on 
> CPU. Unity has come and gone \o/ and Gnome session has settled down and will 
> likely become the next ubuntu de (? anyone know?) Also, the average used 
> computer has changed in this time as well (the P$ is not common any more) and 
> ubuntu is even thinking of dropping 32bit CPU support. The purpose for 
> sticking to xfce is perhaps no longer there (though it is stil my personal 
> favourite) and moving to something more standard my be something to look at 
> for the next lts (in two more years). Please remember US is a working 
> flavour, not a casual desktop that needs to work the same as a phone. It has 
> many more applications than an email client and a browser and needs easy ways 
> of discovering them all. I personally have not yet found anything as good the 
> old win95 style dropdown menu (which was designed for the work environment).

> However, also remember that with only a few people helping out, being able to 
> use somebody else to do most of the DE stuff and only add the applications 
> and tweaks on top (in the same way we have been building on xubuntu) is an 
> easy way to go. The DE stuff gets tested by someone else so US can 
> concentrate on the audio/video/graphic parts.
> 

At one point in time, there was a project to give the UbuStu installer a choice 
of DEs. However, I believe nothing ever came of that. With that said, a change 
in DE is one thing I have been considering proposing. Ubuntu (proper) has 
transitioned to the GNOME desktop environment 

Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Candace

[Len Ovens]

On Tue, 3 Apr 2018, Ralf Mardorf wrote:


If a user gets the setup right in the first place, there seldom is the
need for cheap workarounds such as a bridge to pulseaudio.


Which one is the "cheap workaround" is a matter of opinion.


Note, it doesn't matter what distro I prefer to use myself, since I
report issues to upstream (real upstream of software, not Ubuntu's
upstream called Debian) and I help users using Ubuntu flavours. I don't
see posts from  Erich Eickmeyer on Ubuntu flavour user mailing lists
helping users.


This comment is out of place. Please keep your putdowns to yourself.


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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] US still alive !

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Mon, 2 Apr 2018 13:22:05 -0700 (PDT), Len Ovens wrote:
>I am picky and don't use qjackctl for anything other the connections
>window. I have my own script that does what I happen to want.

For usage with scripts a good tool is
https://packages.ubuntu.com/artful/aj-snapshot , however at some point
the only way to restore connections, is to manually do them again and
again, since MIDI interfaces sharing the same name, can't be renamed and
cannot be restored by any alsa/jack connection helper. To get jackd
right, I'm using either a DAW such as Ardour or command line/scripts,
I neither recommend to use QjacjCtl nor Cadencefor this purpose.

>Another project that would be great to see added to US is 
>https://github.com/jhernberg/udev-rtirq to replace the standard rtirq.

This might be interasting for Erich, Joakim Hernberg is another Arch
Linux user, also not an Ubuntu Studio user.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Candace

[Ralf Mardorf]

Pulseaudio often isn't needed at all and furthermore it has got
counter-productive effects for most professional audio work. For
workarounds there is software such as apulse, see
https://github.com/i-rinat/apulse , let alone that some apps such as
Firefox support alsa, as well as jack, just build Firefox with
"ac_add_options --enable-alsa" and/or "ac_add_options --enable-jack".

If a user gets the setup right in the first place, there seldom is the
need for cheap workarounds such as a bridge to pulseaudio.

Note, it doesn't matter what distro I prefer to use myself, since I
report issues to upstream (real upstream of software, not Ubuntu's
upstream called Debian) and I help users using Ubuntu flavours. I don't
see posts from  Erich Eickmeyer on Ubuntu flavour user mailing lists
helping users.

Get in contact with thousands of users before making changes based on
articles you once read.

Choice is good, as long as the choice is well maintained. If you add
new packages without granting maintenance for those packages across
releases of Ubuntu (Studio), you harm users.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Candace

[lukefromdc]

I've always used qjackctl if I needed to set up something non-default in jack,
had little trouble with it. Even used it on a netbook for a while to set up 
sound
to deal with mono files (not supported in harware on that machine) by running
jack, which was much lighter on that machine running directly on ALSA than 
pulseaudio of that era was, as well as easy to turn on and off.

On 4/2/2018 at 3:11 PM, "Erich Eickmeyer"  wrote:
>
>Hi Thomas,
>
>> On Apr 2, 2018, at 10:08 AM, Thomas Pfundt t...@protonmail.ch> wrote:
>> 
>> On April 2, 2018 4:33 PM, Erich Eickmeyer 
> wrote:
>>> FalkTX has just released Cadence v0.9.0, having finished 
>porting it to Qt5.
>>> This would definitely be another reason we should consider 
>moving from
>>> QJackCtl to Cadence, along with the extra tools Cadence 
>includes.
>> 
>> Without using as much of a harsh tone as Ralf, I'd also not 
>really be in favour of that, personally. I've used Cadence as well 
>for its one-click-connection functionaliy when I first started 
>using Ubuntu Studio, but have retired it shortly after, because I 
>felt that the configuration and setup options wouldn't allow me to 
>adjust it the way I needed to. This may have changed now, I 
>haven't used it in quite a long time.
>
>I appreciate this. I’m much more open to reasonable discourse as 
>opposed to hurling insults. And, yes, Cadence is just as 
>configurable ad QJackCtl these days.
>
>> However, I don't really see that there's any particular 
>advantage in basic functionality over QJackCtl. You can basically 
>just pactl load-module module-jack-source / module-jack-sink for 
>Pulseaudio connections and add any other external audio devices 
>with alsa_in / alsa_out -d hw:X, as needed. I'd even say that the 
>QJackCtl Patchbay thingy to connect everything is extremely 
>persistent and just runs automatically once a specific setup is 
>saved and and activated. No need for tons of programs for a basic 
>setup, maybe there's just a lack of guidance in documentation 
>regarding different setups? But Cadence may do that as well now 
>and I just haven't seen it, yet.
>
>The advantage is that Cadence does the “pactl load-module…” 
>command for you, which would be much more appealing to newcomers, 
>especially those converting from Mac or Windows. And yes, the 
>QJackCtl is very persistent, and has that advantage over Cadence. 
>However, FalkTX is making strides with the Claudia module for full 
>session management, which definitely keeps connections persistent 
>and launches the apps for you. It does need some work, IMO, since 
>it relies heavily on LADISH and, in my experience, LADISH doesn’t 
>handle multiple Jack processes from the same app very well if at 
>all when it comes to using the graphical patchbay.
>
>My workflow involves launching Cadence to launch Jack and the 
>PulseAudio bridge, which then allows me to run Spotify through 
>PulseAudio patched to outputs 1 & 2 in my 32-channel audio 
>interface, then run Ardour to handle everything else via templates 
>I’ve made. But, that’s how I do things, your mileage may vary. :)
>
>> After all, can't hurt to offer it as well for those that would 
>like to use it. I guess I'd even take another look at it, if I 
>would't have to add the full Kxstudio repositories, first. But 
>then again, there's the issue of getting it into the official 
>repository to begin with.
>
>My goal is to at least get it included in the repos. It’s pretty 
>obvious that it won’t happen for the 18.04 cycle, but I don’t see 
>any reason why it can’t be done for 18.10. That said, I am also 
>very open to keeping QJackCtl. My vision involves making things 
>(to quote the KDE team) “Simple by default, powerful when needed.”
>
>That said, reading your thoughts was a breath of fresh air. I love 
>reading stuff like this and keeping open discussion.
>
>Thanks,
>Erich


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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] US still alive !

[Len Ovens]

On Mon, 2 Apr 2018, Thomas Pfundt wrote:

On April 2, 2018 1:15 PM, Set Hallstrom  wrote: 
if you feel you want to set-up a meeting you should feel 
free to go ahead and do so by inviting everyone to attend on a given 
date in a given chat room. :) 


I have no problem with setting up a meeting, but I don't really feel 
qualified enough to curate it. I suppose it would be beneficial to have 
someone with a clear vision on where to pick things up, in a sense.


Just think like you are starting over. Don't be afraid of stepping on 
people's toes.


While I also don't like Cadence that much (last time I tried it was a long 
time ago), I am picky and don't use qjackctl for anything other the 
connections window. I have my own script that does what I happen to want. 
I had started to mangle ubuntustudio-controls in a way that I thought 
would work best for beginners. It allowed using a USB mic (one of the most 
common causes of problems these days) by just plugging it in. It handles 
hot plugged USB audio devices as well as using the internal MB audio along 
with PCI(e) interfaces. It also allows using the pulse-jack bridge even 
when jack is set to freerunning. However, I have been too busy to finish 
it.


In short, the things that (so far as I know) keep cadence from being 
better are:


 - it does not unload module-udev-detect and module-alsa-card from pulse
(required for reliable pulse-jack bridging)
 - does not deal with hotpluged USB audio
 - it does not deal with two or more audio devices

Another project that would be great to see added to US is 
https://github.com/jhernberg/udev-rtirq to replace the standard rtirq.
The standard rtirq only works at startup and only with devices that are 
ready before it runs. udev-rtirq gives hot plugged audio interfaces raised 
priority as well.


To add to all that there is something new that will be facing us called 
pipewire. How well that will work remains to be seen, but the auther at 
least seems to be talking to the right people and it seems it will not be 
another pulseaudio replacement that doesn't meet pro-audio needs. (one 
hopes)


Some people have asked about DE. We have since Gnome2 was depricated, used 
xfce as being the best replacement so far as usablility, stability, light 
on CPU. Unity has come and gone \o/ and Gnome session has settled down and 
will likely become the next ubuntu de (? anyone know?) Also, the average 
used computer has changed in this time as well (the P$ is not common any 
more) and ubuntu is even thinking of dropping 32bit CPU support. The 
purpose for sticking to xfce is perhaps no longer there (though it is stil 
my personal favourite) and moving to something more standard my be 
something to look at for the next lts (in two more years). Please remember 
US is a working flavour, not a casual desktop that needs to work the same 
as a phone. It has many more applications than an email client and a 
browser and needs easy ways of discovering them all. I personally have not 
yet found anything as good the old win95 style dropdown menu (which was 
designed for the work environment).


However, also remember that with only a few people helping out, being able 
to use somebody else to do most of the DE stuff and only add the 
applications and tweaks on top (in the same way we have been building on 
xubuntu) is an easy way to go. The DE stuff gets tested by someone else so 
US can concentrate on the audio/video/graphic parts.


Anyway, lots of ideas, not sure which are good or bad...

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] US still alive !

[Thomas Pfundt]

On April 2, 2018 1:15 PM, Set Hallstrom  wrote: 
> if you feel you want to set-up a meeting you should feel 
> free to go ahead and do so by inviting everyone to attend on a given 
> date in a given chat room. :) 
 
I have no problem with setting up a meeting, but I don't really feel qualified 
enough to curate it. I suppose it would be beneficial to have someone with a 
clear vision on where to pick things up, in a sense. 
 
Thanks for the heads-up regarding the IRC channel. I'll see to be active there 
from now on as well. I'm missing the Libreboot IRC, anyway. 

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Candace

[Erich Eickmeyer]

Hi Thomas,

> On Apr 2, 2018, at 10:08 AM, Thomas Pfundt  wrote:
> 
> On April 2, 2018 4:33 PM, Erich Eickmeyer  wrote:
>> FalkTX has just released Cadence v0.9.0, having finished porting it to Qt5.
>> This would definitely be another reason we should consider moving from
>> QJackCtl to Cadence, along with the extra tools Cadence includes.
> 
> Without using as much of a harsh tone as Ralf, I'd also not really be in 
> favour of that, personally. I've used Cadence as well for its 
> one-click-connection functionaliy when I first started using Ubuntu Studio, 
> but have retired it shortly after, because I felt that the configuration and 
> setup options wouldn't allow me to adjust it the way I needed to. This may 
> have changed now, I haven't used it in quite a long time.

I appreciate this. I’m much more open to reasonable discourse as opposed to 
hurling insults. And, yes, Cadence is just as configurable ad QJackCtl these 
days.

> However, I don't really see that there's any particular advantage in basic 
> functionality over QJackCtl. You can basically just pactl load-module 
> module-jack-source / module-jack-sink for Pulseaudio connections and add any 
> other external audio devices with alsa_in / alsa_out -d hw:X, as needed. I'd 
> even say that the QJackCtl Patchbay thingy to connect everything is extremely 
> persistent and just runs automatically once a specific setup is saved and and 
> activated. No need for tons of programs for a basic setup, maybe there's just 
> a lack of guidance in documentation regarding different setups? But Cadence 
> may do that as well now and I just haven't seen it, yet.

The advantage is that Cadence does the “pactl load-module…” command for you, 
which would be much more appealing to newcomers, especially those converting 
from Mac or Windows. And yes, the QJackCtl is very persistent, and has that 
advantage over Cadence. However, FalkTX is making strides with the Claudia 
module for full session management, which definitely keeps connections 
persistent and launches the apps for you. It does need some work, IMO, since it 
relies heavily on LADISH and, in my experience, LADISH doesn’t handle multiple 
Jack processes from the same app very well if at all when it comes to using the 
graphical patchbay.

My workflow involves launching Cadence to launch Jack and the PulseAudio 
bridge, which then allows me to run Spotify through PulseAudio patched to 
outputs 1 & 2 in my 32-channel audio interface, then run Ardour to handle 
everything else via templates I’ve made. But, that’s how I do things, your 
mileage may vary. :)

> After all, can't hurt to offer it as well for those that would like to use 
> it. I guess I'd even take another look at it, if I would't have to add the 
> full Kxstudio repositories, first. But then again, there's the issue of 
> getting it into the official repository to begin with.

My goal is to at least get it included in the repos. It’s pretty obvious that 
it won’t happen for the 18.04 cycle, but I don’t see any reason why it can’t be 
done for 18.10. That said, I am also very open to keeping QJackCtl. My vision 
involves making things (to quote the KDE team) “Simple by default, powerful 
when needed.”

That said, reading your thoughts was a breath of fresh air. I love reading 
stuff like this and keeping open discussion.

Thanks,
Erich


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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Candace

[Thomas Pfundt]

On April 2, 2018 4:33 PM, Erich Eickmeyer  wrote: 
> FalkTX has just released Cadence v0.9.0, having finished porting it to Qt5. 
> This would definitely be another reason we should consider moving from 
> QJackCtl to Cadence, along with the extra tools Cadence includes. 
 
Without using as much of a harsh tone as Ralf, I'd also not really be in favour 
of that, personally. I've used Cadence as well for its one-click-connection 
functionaliy when I first started using Ubuntu Studio, but have retired it 
shortly after, because I felt that the configuration and setup options wouldn't 
allow me to adjust it the way I needed to. This may have changed now, I haven't 
used it in quite a long time. 
 
However, I don't really see that there's any particular advantage in basic 
functionality over QJackCtl. You can basically just pactl load-module 
module-jack-source / module-jack-sink for Pulseaudio connections and add any 
other external audio devices with alsa_in / alsa_out -d hw:X, as needed. I'd 
even say that the QJackCtl Patchbay thingy to connect everything is extremely 
persistent and just runs automatically once a specific setup is saved and and 
activated. No need for tons of programs for a basic setup, maybe there's just a 
lack of guidance in documentation regarding different setups? But Cadence may 
do that as well now and I just haven't seen it, yet. 
 
After all, can't hurt to offer it as well for those that would like to use it. 
I guess I'd even take another look at it, if I would't have to add the full 
Kxstudio repositories, first. But then again, there's the issue of getting it 
into the official repository to begin with.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Candace

[Erich Eickmeyer]

> On Apr 2, 2018, at 8:32 AM, Ralf Mardorf  wrote:
> 
> Here we go:
> 
> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/

All this does is point to the ISO repos. This adds nothing to your argument.

> Upgrading from one to another release, should still allow you to
> continue using Ubuntu Studio without major inconveniences. If newcomers
> would be allowed to overturn basal preconditions, completely ignoring
> backwards compatibility with old stored sessions, than there's no
> future at all for Ubuntu Studio. An idea based upon euphoria, without
> any background at all, is the most worse you could contribute.

Upgrading from one release to another wouldn’t uninstall anything already 
installed, so this is moot. Also, there is nothing saying it was going to 
change, so just calm down and don’t worry about it that much. It was merely a 
suggestion and idea, not an overturn of established

> Note, I'm an Arch user, but I help less experienced Linux users a lot.
> Arch is not a user friendly distro, while Ubuntu flavours are more or
> less user-friendly. Both approaches have got pros and cons. While I use
> Arch Linux much more than Ubuntu flavours, I'm much more involved in
> helping Linux novices by contributing to Ubuntu flavour mailing lists.

My opinion: Unless you’re willing to “eat your own dogfood” (i.e. use the 
product you’re contributing to) then you’re just providing noise. That’s just 
my opinion. You’ve been very vocal on here and almost acting dictatorial. I’m 
offering suggestions, you’re offering mandates and dismissing suggestions. I’m 
sure your opinion is valued, but it would hold more weight if you used the 
product you’re trying to direct.

> Reconsider your point of view. Progress is very important, but the
> progress must come with a balance to backwards compatibility. If not,
> there's no flow at all, it just would be an endless restart from ground
> zero.

Again, it’s my opinion, and merely my opinion. My views (alone) do not dictate 
the direction of Ubuntu Studio. Also, as I said before, my suggestion included 
keeping QJackCtl in the repos, although keeping it installed by default but 
adding Cadence isn’t a bad idea either.

Your opinion has been noted and will be considered in the decision. No need to 
further argue or belabor the issue.


Erich




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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Candace

[Ralf Mardorf]

Here we go:

http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/

Upgrading from one to another release, should still allow you to
continue using Ubuntu Studio without major inconveniences. If newcomers
would be allowed to overturn basal preconditions, completely ignoring
backwards compatibility with old stored sessions, than there's no
future at all for Ubuntu Studio. An idea based upon euphoria, without
any background at all, is the most worse you could contribute.

Note, I'm an Arch user, but I help less experienced Linux users a lot.
Arch is not a user friendly distro, while Ubuntu flavours are more or
less user-friendly. Both approaches have got pros and cons. While I use
Arch Linux much more than Ubuntu flavours, I'm much more involved in
helping Linux novices by contributing to Ubuntu flavour mailing lists.

Reconsider your point of view. Progress is very important, but the
progress must come with a balance to backwards compatibility. If not,
there's no flow at all, it just would be an endless restart from ground
zero.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Candace

[Erich Eickmeyer]

> On Apr 2, 2018, at 7:44 AM, Ralf Mardorf  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 2 Apr 2018 07:33:05 -0700, Erich Eickmeyer wrote:
>> moving from QJackCtl to Cadence
> 
> Dropping QjackCtl in favour of Cadence? If so, that's utter nonsense!

There’s no need to be rude, it was just an idea. All ideas are welcome here.

> You could provide Cadence, but you cannot move/migrate from QjackCtl to
> Cadence, since this would break the workflow for a majority of Ubuntu
> Studio audio users.

The idea only came from an article I read that I am unable to locate right now 
mentioning that the Jack developers recommend using Cadence anymore as QJackCtl 
is outdated, per the article. I, for one, don’t use QJackCtl in favor of 
Cadence in my workflow, so I’d love to see some data behind this “majority”.

> Btw. we already could use apps such as Qtractor or Ardour without a
> helper such as QjackCtl and without the need to use command line.
> However, QjackCtl with all its pros and cons, at least for backwards
> compatibility, is much more important than any replacement.

That’s fine, so there’s no reason why not to include both except for software 
bloat reasons. I just think that Cadence would lower the barrier for entry for 
a lot of users, but allow QJackCtl to be available for backwards compatibility.

Either way, the “utter nonsense” tone is a little offensive and, quite frankly, 
unwelcome.


Erich



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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Candace

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Mon, 2 Apr 2018 07:33:05 -0700, Erich Eickmeyer wrote:
>moving from QJackCtl to Cadence

Dropping QjackCtl in favour of Cadence? If so, that's utter nonsense!
You could provide Cadence, but you cannot move/migrate from QjackCtl to
Cadence, since this would break the workflow for a majority of Ubuntu
Studio audio users.

Btw. we already could use apps such as Qtractor or Ardour without a
helper such as QjackCtl and without the need to use command line.
However, QjackCtl with all its pros and cons, at least for backwards
compatibility, is much more important than any replacement.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] US still alive !

[Erich Eickmeyer]

> On Apr 2, 2018, at 4:15 AM, Set Hallstrom  wrote:
> 
> Hi Thomas! Good to read you :)
> 
> On 2018-04-01 15:02, Thomas Pfundt wrote:
>> Hi Set and all others,
>> 
>> on the general topic: Back in February when Ross Gammon asked for
>> help with the 16.04.4 ISO-testing, he also mentioned the possible
>> formation of a new project council. Two other members of the mailing
>> list and I have already offered our assistance in our own respective
>> areas of proficiency. (I don't know if I should tentatively mention
>> their contacts, but they're probably reading reading this list and
>> can join in at their own sentiment.)
>> I've basically been waiting for a word on some kind of get-together
>> to discuss roles or division for what's on the road map, but I might
>> have misunderstood something.
> 
> The call to get together should have been made by the project lead, that
> was me, but as it turned out, i simply couldn't.
> 
> 
> I do however think that projects that are driven by volunteers needs
> someone/someones to take action from the discussions. I know not
> everyone have the time, will, or initiative to do so. What I'm trying to
> say is that, if you feel you want to set-up a meeting you should feel
> free to go ahead and do so by inviting everyone to attend on a given
> date in a given chat room. :)
> 
> For the record, for that purpose we use IRC because it is transparent,
> and discussions are logged here:
> https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/
> 
> 
>> I'll look into signing the code of conduct myself right now and try
>> to get a better overview of the current state of everything.
> 
>> Anyway, I'll be available throughout this year and help with what I
>> can, so "count me in".
>> 
>> 
>> Kind regards, Thomas
>> 
> 
> Thank you very much Thomas!! <3
> 
> --
> Set Sakrecoer
> 
> --
> Set Hallstrom aka sakrecoer
> 
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> 

Now that a very busy season at work has passed, I should be good for a meeting. 
I understand not everybody lives on the U.S. West Coast like myself, so I’m 
open to hearing whatever times work best.

It would be nice to know what agenda items we have, unfinished business, etc., 
and if anybody has the logs of the last meeting to review beforehand that would 
be great.


Erich


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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Candace

[Erich Eickmeyer]

> On Mar 31, 2018, at 4:56 AM, eylul  wrote:
> 
> I believe this was in our todo list. :) Some of the changes FalkTX is making 
> might actually make it easier for these to be included in the debian repos. 
> Another option is to see if we can get it into ubuntu repos.
> Best
> 
> Eylul
> 
> On 03/30/2018 08:06 PM, Erich Eickmeyer wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 30, 2018, at 7:17 AM, Set Hallström >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> On March 30, 2018 4:12:34 PM GMT+02:00, Set Sakrecoer >> > wrote:
 On March 30, 2018 12:17:51 PM GMT+02:00, Lord Jonathan Moore
 > wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I was looking at the replace-qjackctl-a blueprint and think Candace
> would
> be better it is faster to use than patchage. And looks more organized
> with
> a ladish session. I would like an opinion on ladish vs jack,
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> jdm7dv
 
 Hi Jonathan!
 
 Thanks for reaching out and taking the time to inveatigate the
 question!
 
 I kindof lost touch with music production at the same time i lost touch
 with ubuntu studio. I'm hoping to get chance to test Cadence. I think i
 remember hearing ladish development was sort of abandoned, but i might
 be very wrong...
 
 The rule of thumb is: if it fits in debian, it fits in UbuStu. This is
 because we pull packages from debian. I hope someone else can fill the
 many blanks.
 
 TL;DR i am not against it, but i'm not really fit for judging and i
 hope more ppl will get involved in giving you feedback.
 --
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>>> 
>>> Ps. Sorry, I mismanipulated my portable email client and by doing so forgot 
>>> to sign the previous email properly. public@sak***oer.com  
>>> is my alternative mailing list email address...
>>> 
>>> Yours,
>>> --
>>> Set Hallström AKA Sakrecoer
>>> 
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>>> 
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>>> 
>> 
>> Jonathan,
>> 
>> This is a great idea as the Jack developers are recommending Cadence over 
>> qjackctl anymore, and patchage seems to be unmaintained. Besides, Cadence 
>> seems to work with the PulseAudio-Jack bridge better than anything I’ve seen.
>> 
>> FalkTX (the developer of KXStudio and Cadence) has Cadence in his KXStudio 
>> repos/PPA, which work directly with Debian iirc. Based on this, I’m fairly 
>> certain it can be run upstream to Debian and be made a part of the Ubuntu 
>> repos. I’ve been considering reaching-out to FalkTX to see if he would be 
>> willing to push Cadence upstream. Either way, I’m sure it can be done. Even 
>> Arch has it in their community repo.
>> 
>> As for getting it into 18.04, it’s probably too late at this time, but 
>> perhaps that’s something we work on for the next release cycle.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Erich
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
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> 

FalkTX has just released Cadence v0.9.0, having finished porting it to Qt5. 
This would definitely be another reason we should consider moving from QJackCtl 
to Cadence, along with the extra tools Cadence includes.

Erich



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[ubuntu-studio-devel] Disabling KPTI

[Ralf Mardorf]

Has anybody already compared the DSP load/audio real-time performance,
when booting linux-lowlatency with and without the "nopti" option?

[root@archlinux rocketmouse]# systemd-nspawn -qD /mnt/moonstudio lsb_release -a
LSB Version:
core-9.20160110ubuntu0.2-amd64:core-9.20160110ubuntu0.2-noarch:security-9.20160110ubuntu0.2-amd64:security-9.20160110ubuntu0.2-noarch
Distributor ID: Ubuntu
Description:Ubuntu 16.04.4 LTS
Release:16.04
Codename:   xenial
[root@archlinux rocketmouse]# systemd-nspawn -qD /mnt/moonstudio apt list -a 
linux-lowlatency
Listing... Done
linux-lowlatency/xenial-updates,xenial-security,now 4.4.0.116.122 amd64 
[installed]
linux-lowlatency/xenial 4.4.0.21.22 amd64

I already booted my Ubuntu install with and without "nopti", but had no
time to test performance.

Depending on booting with or without "nopti" the command
"cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/vulnerabilities/meltdown" either shows
"Mitigation: PTI" or "Vulnerable".

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Gaining Wiki Edit Permissions

[Ralf Mardorf]

While https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Professional_audio still is
broken as an Ubuntu Studio Wiki, it at least provides room for
discussion, see
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Talk:Professional_audio , such
discussions are usually continued at an Arch mailing list. Actually, we
were able to bring Arch pro-audio to life again. The Wiki is still in a
bad condition, but a lot of other issues are already solved. Arch
pro-audio is currently in way better condition, than Ubuntu Studio
everwas, actually with less people participating. This is
possible, because Arch provides much better preconditions, than Ubuntu
does provide. Let alone that we don't care about public relations and
wallpapers.

-- 
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4.15.15-1
4.14.29_rt25-1
4.14.28_rt23-1
4.14.24_rt19-1
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Gaining Wiki Edit Permissions

[Ralf Mardorf]

I'm a member of the Wiki documentation team, IOW I'm allowed to edit
Wikis, but I can't remember that I ever needed to sign the Ubuntu CoC,
nor that I ever was forced to use any GPG signing. Actually I've got two
accounts, but for testing purpose I logged in by just one of my
accounts. One issue still is, that it could take minutes to log
in and the second issue is, that searching the Ubuntu Wiki for specific
Ubuntu Studio sites is a PITA, it's easier to use Google, but it
requires to log in again and again, IOW to wait for minutes and minutes.

I logged in, some random Ubuntu Wiki sites already turned from
"immutable" to "editable" for me, but now I try to log in to edit
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/TroubleShooting a site I
already edited, but after pushing "Yes, log me in" and waiting for
minutes I got

"Internal Server Error

The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was
unable to complete your request.

Please contact the server administrator, [no address given] and inform
them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done
that may have caused the error.

More information about this error may be available in the server error
log."

IOW you need to try again and again and again. In the time it requires
to log in, to edit an Ubuntu flavour Wiki, I'm able to edit several
Arch Linux Wiki pages. What do you think I have done within the last
years? Yes, I edited Arch Linux Wikis and ignored Ubuntu Wikis, while a
simple copy and paste would have done the job for an Ubuntu Wiki.

However, after a few minutes of trying to log in again and again, I'm
now allowed to edit it. I wasted minutes to log in and don't have time
anymore to edit the Wiki, however, I edited the Wiki and added a
comment, that actually would belong to a Wiki's discussion, but the
Ubuntu Wiki is missing this feature.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/TroubleShooting?action=diff=12=11

;)


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4.14.24_rt19-1
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Gaining Wiki Edit Permissions

[Set Hallstrom]

On 2018-04-02 14:18, Set Hallstrom wrote:
> I don't know what kind of process is best. But it's a question that
> should be asked to ubuntu at large; ubuntustudio alone doesn't have much
> say in it.

i mean... we do have a say, but said process can only be improved if
discussed with _everyone_ involved with it.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Gaining Wiki Edit Permissions

[Set Hallstrom]

After spinning this in my head a few times:

On 2018-04-02 13:27, Set Hallstrom wrote:
> I'm not saying it's a prefect process, and i agree that beggars can't be
> choosers. But it is my opinion that we need some kind of sign of moral
> commitment to the project, or we could as well just make everything public.

I'd like to add that there are many good reasons, as you mention, to
want to allow users to sign the CoC directly from launchpad, but
removing the manual steps would also potentially open for easier
automation of that process to spam-bots.

I have had a long and unresolved internal struggle about the dilemma of
making things easier at the cost of leveling things to lowest
denominator. On one hand, i understand that most users don't want to
struggle with computing per-se and rather get on with using the computer
for their production purpose without having to know how the tools work
behind the scene. On the other hand in an ever more digitalized society,
this makes me sad: I'd wish more users would be inclined to take control
over their tools.

I don't know what kind of process is best. But it's a question that
should be asked to ubuntu at large; ubuntustudio alone doesn't have much
say in it.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Gaining Wiki Edit Permissions

[Set Hallstrom]

On 2018-03-31 06:34, Mike Lococo wrote:
> Set,
[.snip]

> Signed.

Thanks! I'll poke around as soon as i get the time. I think we have a
ubuntustudio group that has access to the wiki, but i need to remember
which one.
( i think it shoulld be:
https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-documentation
feel free to request addition to it. )

> But even as someone who knows their way around GPG, that was 
> harrowing. No musician or artist experimenting with linux on a 
> live-usb for the first time is going to successfully navigate that 
> process to correct a wiki typo. I don't know if that means it's only
>  worth recruiting among existing ubuntu contributors, or we need to 
> find ways to get people involved outside launchpad... but anyone with
> a half an hour to get their feet wet is going bounce off that process
> and never return.
> 
> If any other new folks find the code-of-conduct signature process as
>  mystifying as I did, this was the simplest guide I found (though the
>  key-import screenshot is wrongly about ssh-key import, which is 
> different than the gpg-key import you need to do to sign the CoC): 
> https://www.wikihow.com/Sign-the-Ubuntu-Code-of-Conduct
> 
> Cheers, Lococo

I understand GPG is cumbersome and a bit hard to wrap one's head around.
This said, so is development. Musicians, Artists, designers etc, are
welcome to help developing, but there is no short cut to it: you need to
learn the tools to do it and they are rarely very artistically
intuitive. However these type of contributors are often more comfortable
with PR, documentation and promotion. That means signing the code is the
most abstract thing they'll have to do.

I'm not saying it's a prefect process, and i agree that beggars can't be
choosers. But it is my opinion that we need some kind of sign of moral
commitment to the project, or we could as well just make everything public.

I hope i make sense.

Perhaps the entire embarking process is a good place to start with the
documentation update?

Thank you for taking the time, Mikelococo!

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] US still alive !

[Set Hallstrom]

Hi Thomas! Good to read you :)

On 2018-04-01 15:02, Thomas Pfundt wrote:
> Hi Set and all others,
> 
> on the general topic: Back in February when Ross Gammon asked for
> help with the 16.04.4 ISO-testing, he also mentioned the possible
> formation of a new project council. Two other members of the mailing
> list and I have already offered our assistance in our own respective
> areas of proficiency. (I don't know if I should tentatively mention
> their contacts, but they're probably reading reading this list and
> can join in at their own sentiment.)
> I've basically been waiting for a word on some kind of get-together
> to discuss roles or division for what's on the road map, but I might
> have misunderstood something.

The call to get together should have been made by the project lead, that
was me, but as it turned out, i simply couldn't.


I do however think that projects that are driven by volunteers needs
someone/someones to take action from the discussions. I know not
everyone have the time, will, or initiative to do so. What I'm trying to
say is that, if you feel you want to set-up a meeting you should feel
free to go ahead and do so by inviting everyone to attend on a given
date in a given chat room. :)

For the record, for that purpose we use IRC because it is transparent,
and discussions are logged here:
https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/


> I'll look into signing the code of conduct myself right now and try
> to get a better overview of the current state of everything.

> Anyway, I'll be available throughout this year and help with what I
> can, so "count me in".
> 
> 
> Kind regards, Thomas
> 

Thank you very much Thomas!! <3

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